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 Post subject: Law Enforcement looking to catch herpers in Arizona
PostPosted: May 15th, 2018, 4:37 am 
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Joined: July 19th, 2017, 10:22 pm
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Location: Western Washington (Not Seattle)
I ran by this article this morning and it truly makes me mad. Once again the good is going to suffer because the bad.
https://www.google.com/amp/amp.fox10pho ... re-herpers


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 Post subject: Re: Law Enforcement looking to catch herpers in Arizona
PostPosted: May 16th, 2018, 5:02 am 
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Joined: June 9th, 2010, 3:03 pm
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The two species discussed were rosy boas and speckled rattlesnakes. Lets look at the numbers. Using rosy boas for example. You are allowed to have 4 in your possession with a hunting license. Last yr. the State of Arizona issued over 340 thousand hunting licenses. This means that by law 1,340,800 rosy boas could be legally collected. Using the wildly exaggerated number of 100,000 rosy boas collected. If 100,000 rosy are collected that would add up to less then 7 and a half percent of the number that could be legally harvested. When you consider that the actual number of rosy boas collected is undoubtedly only in the hundreds, the actual take adds up to an infaintesimal number when compared to the states allowable take. And yet they claim they are concerned about collection causing declines in the states reptile populations. Hum.....................................that's odd.

Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: Law Enforcement looking to catch herpers in Arizona
PostPosted: May 16th, 2018, 4:13 pm 
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Joined: June 10th, 2010, 8:49 pm
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I'm glad to see that the existing laws are being enforced in Arizona. Its a good reminder to be informed and legal when field herping.


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 Post subject: Re: Law Enforcement looking to catch herpers in Arizona
PostPosted: May 16th, 2018, 4:56 pm 
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Joined: June 9th, 2010, 3:03 pm
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I'm glad to see that the existing laws are being enforced in Arizona. Its a good reminder to be informed and legal when field herping.


The question is what are these existing laws premised on? Certainly not scientifically sound principle's. At the very least they are not well thought out. Theoretically they allow for potentially unlimited harvest of any individual species that can be collected. The state has placed restrictive measures on the individual but do not limit the total collection of the species in anyway. So how can over collection be a concern.

If you believe the hype. From a common sense standpoint it should be painfully obvious that these "laws" have done more to encourage illegal activity then to discourage it. If in fact the "problem" is growing. Even with constantly updated and increasingly restrictive legislation. Something that is always claimed by those with a vested interest in the creation of growing problems. That alone should be a clear indicator that current regulatory thinking is archaic and ineffective. The state of Arizona as with many states needs to rethink its collection and captive breeding policies to encourage the breeding of native reptile's not eliminate it. The way to stop illegal collection is too make legal animals more available. Not the opposite.

Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: Law Enforcement looking to catch herpers in Arizona
PostPosted: May 16th, 2018, 8:29 pm 
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Joined: June 10th, 2010, 8:49 pm
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Agree to disagree?


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 Post subject: Re: Law Enforcement looking to catch herpers in Arizona
PostPosted: May 17th, 2018, 2:58 pm 
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Joined: March 9th, 2017, 4:22 pm
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Location: Southern California
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That alone should be a clear indicator that current regulatory thinking is archaic and ineffective. The state of Arizona as with many states needs to rethink its collection and captive breeding policies to encourage the breeding of native reptile's not eliminate it. The way to stop illegal collection is too make legal animals more available. Not the opposite.


Could NOT agree with you more. As I have hinted at before, I have first-hand experience with a lot of the creation, enforcement, and abuse of the laws in California regarding wildlife management and find your statements to be well-worded and very warranted.

My 2 cents at least.


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 Post subject: Re: Law Enforcement looking to catch herpers in Arizona
PostPosted: May 19th, 2018, 7:53 am 

Joined: October 31st, 2017, 5:12 am
Posts: 7
WSTREPS wrote:
The state of Arizona as with many states needs to rethink its collection and captive breeding policies to encourage the breeding of native reptile's not eliminate it. The way to stop illegal collection is too make legal animals more available. Not the opposite.

Ernie Eison


Falconers certainly have had problems with some states and the Federal Govt.

“An incident culminating in 1984 at first appeared to threaten the good standing of the sport in the United States and Canada. The Law Enforcement Division of the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service became convinced that there existed a multi-million dollar illicit trade in falcons conducted between North American and Middle Eastern falconers. A major “sting” operation was undertaken but, unable to find any falconers they claimed were offering illicit birds, the Service itself took a number of gyrfalcons and then-endangered Peregrines from the wild to use as “bait” in what amounted entrapment actions. Culminating in numerous arrests, charges and publicity, The Service was unable to substantiate its claims of such a market since none existed except of their own making. In the long run, the Law Enforcement Division suffered more than considerable humiliation. Unfortunately, falconers still suffer in the aftermath of this federal debacle. Given the spectacular nature of Law Enforcement claims when it “revealed” our imagined transgressions there remain those who still today, despite all the evidence to the contrary, view us as representing illicit commercial motives.“ http://www.n-a-f-a.com/?page=History

Soon after falconers began to breed raptors in captivity many, many of those captive bred birds went for reintroduction programs mostly peregrines.

I once told an agent, “No non falconer in the US has ever bred a peregrine in captivity.” The agent’s mistaken answer was, “The Peregrine Fund does.” With my comment being, “Of course they do, it’s a hot bed of falconers” For a long time some states limited what could be bred which hindered rather than aided peregrines for example. Today there are so many raptors bred in captivity many falconers simply prefer to purchase captive bred birds instead of investing money and time into permits and road trips with the possibility of not catching the targeted species. Besides that many birds are from known performing bloodlines.

What I’m trying to say is to let the breeders do their thing and soon there will be a glut of whatever species they were selling not to mention it will take any profit out of any illegal market that may or may not exist.


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 Post subject: Re: Law Enforcement looking to catch herpers in Arizona
PostPosted: May 20th, 2018, 5:37 am 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 5:02 am
Posts: 542
Location: Southern Cal.
On a positive note, in some ways captive breeding is working. Many rosy boa locales are being bred and offered for sale on common websites. I see L. pyromelana (AZ. mountain kingsnakes) frequently advertised as well.

I personally breed rosy boas from two Az. locales. I purchased the adults from captive breeders rather than taking from the wild.

Another positive action Arizona is taking deals with the internet sale of licenses. You can now purchase your AZ hunting license online from their website. The choices and the site are simple.


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 Post subject: Re: Law Enforcement looking to catch herpers in Arizona
PostPosted: May 20th, 2018, 5:34 pm 
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Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm
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Location: San Francisco, California
I dig the way the Rosy people do their thing. Its like, dedicated in an ol school way.

It reminds me of rock and mineral guys. I dont know why.


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 Post subject: Re: Law Enforcement looking to catch herpers in Arizona
PostPosted: May 20th, 2018, 7:56 pm 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 5:02 am
Posts: 542
Location: Southern Cal.
That is very true. I took a field Geology class in college many years ago, and those folks were just like herpers. I have also seen folks panning for gold in streams where I was herping. Kinda similar....

But I don't think they leave as many things as most herpers do. We photograph and leave our jewels to live another day. :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Law Enforcement looking to catch herpers in Arizona
PostPosted: May 20th, 2018, 9:24 pm 
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Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm
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Location: San Francisco, California
mm, nice.


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