Nice Paul, Congrats..

Fundad

Nice one, what are your thoughts on their presence in the U.S.? I know Grismer has found them in northerly parts (Guadalupe) etc...but how come nobody has found one in the U.S.??? Certainly not for a lack of effort, do you think they are a native to the U.S.?

Figured a response would have appeared by now so I will answer my inquiry - Baja ratsnakes do not exist in California and probably never did. There have been too many resource folks and herpers in the area over the years to miss a big colubrid like a Baja rat....knowing how it was placed on the SSC list makes the listing even more disturbing IMO....

Not everyone would agree with you. Here is what Don Casabel mentioned on this thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5074

Hi jonathon
Well everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it would be just that - an opinion.

If bajas were a native species they would have found another by now, and that is my proof: no Dors, no live specimens, and none found immediately adjacent to the border in over 30 years. the area where they would be is easily accessed and commonly visited by herpers, resource agencies, border patrol, hikers, and a myriad of other visitors and still no bajas.

Now if there is a relict population in California, and it is known about by somebody, than it is a shame they have taken the very selfish and ignorant route of keeping it a secret. The species is only an ssc which carries little to no legal protection according to cdfw but at the least a developer would have to mitigate for impacts and perform focused surveys if they were a verified native to California. At present a D8 can flatten the habitat and species without any repercussion. So who is actually winning in this situation; baja rat snakes - nope, cdfw - nope, recreational herpers or citizen scientists - nope. It will be developers who come out on top.

Hey Lateralis - I've been down to one of the canyons south of I-8 where Baja rat snakes might exist. It's definitely not "commonly visited by herpers", at least not at night during the prime months of the year. It's a dangerous and somewhat inaccesible place where only hardcore herpers dare to go at night.
Also, the area doesn't seem to be in any danger of development. Some acreage at Mountain Springs is up for sale, but no one seems interested in buying it, since the signs are old and falling over. Almost all of the potential rat snake habitat is part of the Jacumba Wilderness Area, where no vehicles are allowed (besides Border Patrol) - not even mountain bikes. Possibly the best canyon for rat snakes is about a 6 mile hike, one way.
I think it would require a well planned, multi-day backpacking trip, with a half dozen or more experienced herpers, during prime weather conditions, to have a good chance of finding a rat snake in CA.
Want to do it with me someday??

Jeff

Any news on this ^?

Hey Surfinherp,
Im up for that and only live an hour or so away from Mtn Spring, shoot me a pm. I have a buddy in AZ who might join us; we have been discussing a trip down there for awhile. There are at least 6 palm oasis in the area that warrant a look, the remaining canyons etc...may be worthwhile but I believe the 6 spots I have in mind are where the snakes will be found, IF THEY EXIST IN CA.



Paul when you say "down there" are you saying SoCal or northern Baja? What red tape? You submit a CNDDB form and you are done. Now that they are no longer an SSC one should be able to collect a voucher specimen, or at the very least photo document the animal. Anyone with a captive specimen can create a hoax though...and it would be hard/impossible to refute.

Good points. This is a tough situation for "one guys says", it brings several others to mind. Every additional person you added to an actual encounter event would make for a much harder conspiracy to maintain - additional witnesses would add a lot of credibility to what would be, in all brutal candor, a seriously doubted claim. Even if it was true. A crew might even want to have some kind of internal security protocol - before leaving the trucks empty your gear together to verify "no contraband", and once in-country, operate in 2-man teams so nobody has any solo time to unbag a previously-planted specimen. Just sayin'.

I would be interested in such a trip, if you all like. What would you consider prime weather? Or backing up a bit - the prime season? Seems like either spring (April-May) or shortly post-hatching (Aug-Sept), but the latter would be pretty brutal on the human body (particularly if we discovered the extreme drought has left no surface water available for pumping...that would be a vastly better thing to discover with DTHs in the 80's than in the 110's). And, despite being hypothetically better due to more animals (if any...) available for detection, hatchling season might not offer great visual-searching conditions if the animals are all hidden. (I assume every palm frond and smallish rock in sight would be flipped, but...is that even a worthwhile survey method for this animal???) Alternatively, I guess one could just hope to mount a short-notice mission during or right after any lucky monsoon dumps that area received. But that's a tough thing to plan on. And, I personally haven't had consistent good success herping after flash floods. Sometimes yeah, sometimes...big skunk.

What do you 3 guys think?

FWIW - I really don't think they are north of the border. But I'd be willing to put in some time looking. I like that country, I like a challenge, and I don't think much back-country effort has been put in. And hell, the bycatch alone would be a blast.

I like it.
From what I can tell on recent GE imagery there are two ways to access what appears to be some sweet patches of habitat and connecting canyons. These areas are all due south of the spot where the DOR was taken.
It would be a trek to get into but not impossible and only the committed should undertake the venture. Another issue could involve private lands or study areas, I don't know the land status south of mountain springs but my GIS at work will provide it; if the region is included within our service area.

Here are some thoughts in regards to planning:
Approach this effort using good science and document as much as possible. Photos, good field notes etc, should be compiled by each team member and then distilled down to a solid report and biological inventory with pictures, maps, figures and so on after the trip is done.

Depending upon # of teams, send one to Guadalupe canyon with a couple of 8x10 color pictures of juvenile and mature rosaliae and perform interviews with locals.


1. Multiple teams of at least 2 people
2. Hunt both the spring and fall weather permitting
3. Attempt spur of the moment monsoon trips whenever possible

There's a thousand other things to consider and include in planning but I need to go eat.

I'm still down for a CA ratsnake search. Glad at least a couple of guys want to do it too!

I've been discussing the search with a few other experienced herpers and have gotten some good info, but I'll only share that privately.

In my opinion, the optimum time to plan a trip would be during the last two weeks of May. That's when the marine layer tends to move farthest inland, making the desert-edge extra humid. We would mainly be night herping.
I'm pessimistic about all other times of year. That said, I still might venture out there once or twice if rare conditions present an opportunity.

Looking ahead at the calendar and solunar table, it's likely that Mon. 5/22/17 could be a prime night. I've saved that date in my Calendar and am planning to get out to the habitat for at least that one night, hopefully two if I can swing it. I'll try to convince a couple of other local guys to join me. I bet NatureNate, Chrispherp, and Jeff Lemm would be interested.

I'm OK with keeping good fieldnotes and recording some data. The main goal for me though, is just to confirm the species presence in CA. Once we do that, then I imagine more detailed population studies would be initiated later on. If it turns out that they've already been confirmed, well then that's great - I still want to try to add one to my life list. I also want to search for switaki, rosies, Baja collared lizards, and maybe even Baja coachwhips in that area.


I'll keep working to round up a crew of experienced, trustworthy herpers between now and May...


Jeff

im in on that trip for sure !! it might not be a bad idea to take some firearms with us as well.

Cool Matt. Guns are welcome while searching that area. Like usual, I will contact the local Border Patrol and let them know what we're doing there.

I know for what it's worth I'm new to the forum / this conversation but I'd definitely be interested to do a trip down there!
-Jeremy

Sounds like some interest is building BUT my suggestions were for a focused bogey search. Anything else is a bonus. Regarding notes - if this effort is going to be documented properly then notes must be taken and disseminated to be of value and that means a good write up. I have gotten two pms stating the snakes are there but various reasons why they were not vouchered. We need to avoid this kind of thing to be taken seriously - functioning cameras etc need to be in play however since rosaliae have been dropped to "watch list" status and are no longer an ssc we should be able to bag one - I will look into this further.

Guns?
Well I probably won't bring one, it's not that dangerous and it is more weight to lug around but carry at will, it won't bother me if I am there.

Probably true, yet I think that whole area is quite under-explored and there might be a lot of awesome other animals we'll see. Should also be in range for switaki, right? One from that area would be an interesting find.

Here's a list of people interested in the ratsnake search so far:
myself (Jeff N.)
lateralis
Jimi G.
Matt G.
Jeremy W.
Daniel S.

That's a good start. A few more guys would be good.


How do you guys feel about searching during the second half of May?? Like I said earlier, I'm planning to go there on May 22nd when the solunar table seems ideal.

I got it on my calendar Jeff.

Daniel S.

I am glad there is serious interest in this endeavor, it was my intention to plant a seed and see what the result would be. I currently have some spring trips in the mill already and thus my participation is going to have to be a tentative "yes" for now surfinherp. You boys go ahead and figure it out. I'll keep tabs on the thread but otherwise expect you or someone else to pm me and keep me posted on a final date/time as I would like to attend if it fits into my schedule.
Cheers

I'll be busy early May with testing and schoolwork, but late May and mid-late June are good for me. I should be able to make it down there a couple weekends.
-Jeremy

Back in 2010 my buddy and I tried 2 different days to get down into Pinto Canyon. One day we came pretty close, we were just over a mile from being in the canyon but turned back as it was getting cold-(wrong time of year for all night hunting) we carried guns, a BP agent even hiked with us for a hour at one point and told us he doesn't recommend hiking the area without a firearm. On one of the attempts we came across a group of approx. 24 illegals, we just passed each other. When we got back to the truck later that evening BP was waiting. We had to hand them one of our boots, as they had a mold of a boot print they were searching for, all in all we had a lot of fun trying, but no switaki or rat snakes seen. I did flip a BP sensor under a rock, not long after we were contacted by an agent on foot. All of them did try to detour us, or tell us it's not a good idea to hike that far down but technically they can not stop you if you want to do it. The rat snake is a species I've loved chasing over the last 10 years-(saw my first in '07) and really think they make it across the imaginary line. They've been found so close, it's tough for me to think they don't. Good luck to any who do try, I know I'll be back again when I think the conditions are right.

Jeremy Wright, switaki have been found in the area.

It's great seeing the interest in this mission. I will block out the 5/22 time span - most convenient timing would be to depart Utah Thurs 5/19 after work. It's about 12 hours to Ocotillo/Mtn Springs, I can be there around noon Friday 5/20. Alternatively, I could come down later, and return to work mid-week. Luna's third quarter is 5/18, I feel that anything from there on to the new moon 5/25 would be good, and about equally so.

Of course you local guys can track the weather and provide a heads-up to the group if you see something worth moving on - if vernal 2017 seems to be heating up & drying out earlier than expected, or if you get a late dump, or a good marine layer intrusion - whatever moves you. Personally, I'm inclined to lean towards moisture, over moon phase, as being a major determinant of surface activity. Even with some moon, in rocky canyons there's always lots of nocturnal cliff-shade, dark cracks etc. OTOH if there is some springflow, atmospheric moisture would be far less important. I expect the drought has impacted surface water...it might be hideous back up in there. Though I understand this winter has been decent so far.

I think a bigger group would provide a lot of security, as well as improve the chances of finding what we're after. I might also be able to recruit another guy - somebody tough and reliable - to come with. He's known to FHF, and many folks have met him.

I agree about firearms mostly being "dead weight", and would rather not drag one around in the field (though I'd have one under my pillow if I was sleeping out there - what's the idea on that? I'm assuming multiple night hunts, where & how are you guys thinking of sleeping?). I also am not uncomfortable in the presence of weapons, assuming the bearer is not impaired or an idiot, of course.

I'm 100% in agreement with the desirability of good record-keeping, and with the suggested steps for compiling something credible and useful. And with keeping the focus on bogeys, and simply enjoying any bycatch but not targeting/diverting to other stuff and not wasting any prime search time taking fancy pictures or otherwise ogling the bycatch. Get some 100% unambiguous voucher shots and a point fix, take some field notes, and move on. If it's something fabulous, bag it ("temporary detention") if legal. Again, personally I don't believe Bogertophis are there, but I think we can make a useful contribution by looking for them, and also by adding some bycatch records in an under-surveyed area. And I would love to be proven wrong about the bogeys. This might be the biggest herpetological expedition into these spots, ever. And it might not be repeated for a long time.

Slight aside - anybody know if CDFG or USGS is collecting negative data ("we looked, and did not find") yet?

cheers

Hi guys,
Though i'm quite a ways away, I've always been fascinated with the possibilty of Baja rats in CA and spent a lot of time on google earth looking at those canyons. Don't think I'll be free for long enough during the prime time to get down there with you guys, but I'll follow this thread and if something changes, may try to join. Main reason i'm responding though is to put out the possibility of Eridiphas while out there as well. I'm sure some of you have read that old long post on possible US records, but at one point, Don Cascabel, who seems to be a very credible herper, wrote
I've never seen any follow up publication of this range extension, which would be on the magnitude of 250 miles or something, but if it's legit, then they probably would make it a little further, just like the rat snakes. Might be worth it to take a close look, and vouchers of all night snakes out there too so you don't miss anything.
-Elliot

Are you folks ready to go?
I am extremely interested in this endeavor!
Any time you can set a record straight, or even just make a relevant attempt.

I am with all of you in spirit.

Give'm he//!

Craig Barnes

Did anything come of this?

I was writing together my plans to be around the border next year, had just written "May 20-23" as the tentative dates I'd be in the area, then thought, "I wonder if this could be the trip I finally make that Baja Rat Snake search I've always wanted to do." (Some might recall that I've been writing about this since 2014.)

So I search the forum and see that ya'all planned EXACTLY THAT last year, but I had never rechecked the thread because I had confused the updates with one of the regular "pics from baja" threads.

So, did it happen? Find anything? Learn anything that would be useful for a second attempt?

Most importantly...is there any energy this year to try it at that exact same time? There is a chance me and a buddy would be down for it.

Hey jonathon
There have been two trips made to the mtn springs area, one on the spring and one in the fall. Lots of animals seen but as I expected no rosaliae. CDFW has removed them from the SSC list but apparently residents cannot possess them. Still. So stupid as i know that at least one person was approved to move here with his animals about 3 months ago. CDFW is just plain fickle in how they approach this species.

Jonathan - Nate and I searched for ratsnakes south of Mountain Springs on May 22, 2017. Conditions were really good and we found a ton of herps. We hiked south for over 2 miles and the habitat seemed quite appropriate. There are numerous patches of palm trees, with some seeps and small springs scattered throughout the canyons.
Nate and I returned to the same area on Sept. 16, 2017, together with a few other herpers. Conditions were cooler and drier and we didn't see nearly as many herps as we did in May. We should have started the hike and arrived in the prime oasis habitat earlier in the afternoon, since snake activity seemed to peak around dusk when we were still far from the palms.
I made sure to contact the Border Patrol one day before our visits, then again on the days of our searches. The BP really appreciates the heads up. In May, one BP agent sort of acted as a chaperone for Nate and I, as he hiked through the canyon on patrol. In Sept., a pair of agents met up with us in the canyon to check that we were indeed the ones who set off their sensors. It seems pretty safe to herp there, despite the numerous indications that many migrants pass through the canyon.
I'll almost certainly return there next May at least once or twice. Let me know if you're going to be in the area...

Jeff

... you guys give me a good chuckle / thnx /

jimi/lat/jonathan et al. ... please ... dont be chumps ... give it a rest & take a breath ... a really slow deep breath ... there now much better ... exhale it ... & let the brain burn just a wisp of glucose ... i find it works better that way.
There will be a bogie fd. our master hoaxster will treat you & science well ... in fact i recommend & predict a bogie in an elephant tree constricting a grey vireo (spend a minute & research those two) ... The captured boogieman- ..errr bogiesnake should have a 1/2 digested pipistrel in its gut & a fresh deermouse if it's done right.... & trust me ... he will do it right & cross his ayes and wear his best tees ...
The best dad (fundad) will be sold ... as will the editors of herp review ... the maim n squish will immediately promulgate a flood of new proscriptions /prescriptions & most importantly... prohibitions ( on ewe) ... the prohibitionista band (punks mostly) will play raucously like a mob of ravens... tire & finally go off to feast on the fresh roadkill ...
I know most if not all of you will mutter a wtf is he saying & keep on flipping (but please put the rock back beesh)... & never answer ... never mind ask (axe) the ? ...
Why none on hwy 2, nor @ guadalupe after hunsaker (who ... do i understand had grismer (the original gangsta prohibitionista) in attendance with him ?) & none on san felipe pass nor san matias ... despite hundreds of vehicle passages ... heheh now i know this is heavy on your ADD brains ... so i apologize in advance ...
Oh please purge the thought ... & wt-heck ... possibly your survey might sow the seed for a new book ; may i suggest " the rattys amongst us" ?
Klauber & Shaw would be ashamed of your naivete & willful ignorance.
Looking for what you want to find is a recipe for deceit ... hint : dont partake.
& if you must go ..go to guadalupe & go in march as hunsaker reportedly did.
... heh heh ...
Your's always trying to help ... & trying to fly "VFR" thru the fog & to ask the proper ?'s Like why has the DNA of the I-8 hoax never been analyzed in comparison to cabo & captive bogies ? I guess nobody has any interest in what they already have concluded eh? heh heh ... rxr

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuLhlrq-92w

John, I'm confused. In the previous thread it was proven that several of your claims regarding Bogie range in northern Baja were incorrect, which you admitted and followed up with:



You might have been joking, but most of your objections here were already dealt with in that thread, including a photo-vouchered specimen from one of the Mexican locales you claim had no sightings and word-of-mouth reports from the others.

http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... &start=150



Herping rarely-herped areas in fun, and I plan to be in that exact area anyway next year at the exact right time....what exactly are the drawbacks? As far as I know my integrity with regards to herp finds is beyond reproach, and I haven't heard anyone cast the slightest aspersions on Jeff either, and if we go we will be searching with a 3rd party who is a professional wildlife surveyor as well as potentially a Border Patrol escort...what exactly are you scared of?

I've been lucky enough to find two country records in my life, as well as locating three other species for whom the country records had not yet been published (but for which the other finds happened to have occurred before mine), and the team I was working with found six other country records during our search. One of the country records was a 700km range extension from the previous closest known range, though it appears to be naturally occurring and the gap will likely be filled once our publication reveals the secret that was keeping them obscured. These were all outside of the USA, of course, but word of mouth suggests that there could be at least two country records which have been found on the Arizona border and not yet been published. The idea that rat snakes could range 30 miles from their confirmed Baja range into California isn't the strangest thing in the world, and no one is hurt if we look.

Juan I think the more important thing to coonsider is that the ignorance would be not asking the question or in this case not initiating any investigation. Certainly it would be naive to believe/accept they are there based off of the current "evidence" but I wouldn't call anything absolute and while there is always the possibility that there is a relic population near enough to the border to provide a "pioneer" every couple of decades I still don't think they are a native. If there is a population, it's likely a sink and not a source. Now please remember to don your oxygen mask when flying above 12.5k AGL I think the lack of O2 is affecting your sugar uptake. The best point you made is looking at a he voucheredbsnakes DNA. Comparing it to turmezi stock or la zoo animals might be telling or it may muddy the waters even further but I agree that it would be prudent to look at this aspect.

Hey J, long time no type, thnx for posting that link i tried to find it awhile ago & couldnt find it...much like the ghost rosaliae (tho i have fd 3 of them in baja sur, 2 mating & didnt disturb them, 1 DoR : }
The fact that our narcisstic nutcase posts & publishes anything is irrelevant to a serious discussion on anything herp-wise so ...please ... dont go there, @ least w/ me.
The fact that the hunsaker paper exists puts that dot on the map, but obviously i dont believe it because of all my prior points, but heres something so many seem to miss including my colleague Jimi ... all the thousands of miles roadcruised & canyons hiked in s. cally are a mtn of evidence that rosies aint there ... everyone of them was a rosaliae survey ... they just never knew it! Wrap your head around that & then ask whats the liklihood of another hike producing one? Clue ; bring the right whackjob & it rises to 100% heh heh .. not : {
Of course there no harm done, (unless your a recent wildlife studies graduate - you know irreversible habitat destruction - loss of an individual might collapse the population ! )
but its just another fun outing along the fronterra, my point is if you want to make progress you look in mexico, g-canyon to be specific & you bring a series of photos to quiz the locals ... knowing they likely cannot tell a coachwhip from a ratsnke, but better than nada which is what you will find their too ...unless you have the magic man w/ you.
I would be all about leading an expedition down there, carpooling outta calexico & who knows we might even find el whacko somewhere above the campground doing what he does best ... in fact i'd bet $$ i could get us a pix of a greyfox chewing on a rosaliae ... heh heh ... be a slam dunk pub for h review... but it wouldnt have my name associated w/ it.
You take care, b well & b safe ... & typing of which, someone asked; so be aware; dont sleep w/ a pistol, you'll shoot yourself or your buddy taking a leak, & if a plainclothes poepoe comes into your camp, he's gonna shoot 1'st & axe ?'s l8tr ... the only thing to worry about down along the line are "rip crews" & theyre better dealt w/ with an AR-15
The smugglers & aliens will avoid you like the plague, dont worry about them.

... haha we were posting @ the same time ... kindred souls ... & good advice on the oh-2

meanwhile

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2AC41dglnM

One JG to another:



No chumpin' here. Try to avoid doing any more EE impressions, hey? Dude's a size-13 chode. Any resemblance would be most unfortunate.

A dios

... JG, & distinguished others, i didn't mean to hurt your feelings ... sorry, just trying to encourage you to be a bit more critical & use your inductive & deductive powers ... & fwiw, i think EE occasionally makes a solid argument, i just canna go w/ him when he lamblasts researchers, as most of the many i've worked with & have done a fair bit myself, are impoverished, in comparison to our education & other credentials. The occasional few (such as those USGS python folks & their map) do cross the line & wade into the bio-politik & he's right on to call their product garbage. Anyway i digress... given that its halloween & all ...lat axed me to give ya'll a treat ... he's so nice .. & i am learning to be like him : } even tho my instinct was to perhaps provide a trix : }
So, i was twerking on a top secret homeland security issue on an island just off the coast of baja awhile back ... & didn't have time to really mess w/ this little pituophis out hunting verdins ... but lat thinks it may be something else ? I was hoping polly could hep a broe fynger it out ?



edit ... best viewed w/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14ViwvgtvbA ...

Dang it that was not the treat I meant. Now the serpents outta the bag and there goes my top secret project. I was banking my retirement on all the endorsements I was gonna get for that, ewe owe me 3 free helihoggin flights sir.

.... oops ... my bad ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpOSxM0rNPM

Nice track. Don't put anymore "special projects" up w/o a consult.

.. roger that ... but b4 ewe snytch me out ... 4 the effyng record ... i never mentioned ewer team was providing suppression ... & millenials will have no clue what we're tokingbout, ... tokor txt2me on defcom 6 & i'll splain it all ... sorry ... it won't happen again & besides, we goter done ... whats up witchew anyway ... dude ... ???

.. dangit ... wheres my slimey leetle tadpole when daddy mose kneeds hymm ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rbm6GXllBiw

... eerr ... daddyis dun w8tyng ... ahma haf2 step it up keep the stick 4ward n catch (noose) dat crinibal boi ... :p

https://www.youtube.com/embed/Y2HKBQMQmbw#t=116

I think regal was calling this out above lol.
What red tape? They are not even an SSC anymore. Should be pretty easy IF they are truly here in CA. I also heard it was someone's uber secret research project, but I still don't see the big deal, anyone interested in finding these will have a far better chance in Baja than California.

... aye (respectfully) thynk ewe 4got ewer lynx ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ypkv0HeUvTc

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uFF5Q7r0ao0

Thats a great toon, here's a Baja snake video. Thought it was a ratty in the first second or two lol but it is all pituophis Baja sur

... bouttime 2 saddle up & git our donkeys south of the fronterra ...

... Jimi, i can pick you up @ the phx airport ...

http://guadalupecanyonoasis.com/MapsandDirections.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0_QSmxKJ8M

I ride no donkey, but you can pick me up in the tweety bird...sounds like another round is forthcoming, stay tuned, I may even make this outing.

BTW, have we broken any records with this thread, i.e. # of hits/longevity?? LOL Keep it alive!

I would be in for sure...