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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: April 27th, 2011, 7:37 pm 
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Joined: June 10th, 2010, 6:56 pm
Posts: 2854
Location: Wittmann,AZ
Rick

Thanks for the feedback on shipping. Its defintely worth thinking about. And if they should "inadvertently" have offspring...oh darn... I'll have to gift them out too!

Thanks

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: April 28th, 2011, 10:58 pm 
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Joined: November 4th, 2010, 7:10 am
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Location: Sonoran Desert
Kudos to all those involved!

Great idea and efforts! This would work for a lot of species as well!

Keep up the great work


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: May 2nd, 2011, 4:56 am 

Joined: August 30th, 2010, 1:39 pm
Posts: 103
Location: Columbia, MO
Hi Mitch. I just got done watching the video about your gifting idea. I hope it works out. I remember back in 1993 when I saw my first and only Arizona Mountain Kingsnake. What a moment that was. That was before the age of photo cell phones and digitial photography so I have no pics. Anyway, I loved looking at that snake. It was beautiful. I have always like Kingsnakes in general. I hope I happen to look at this site on the day that you post you are giving some away. I have a huge tank with all the proper extras to provide the perfect living conditions for the animal. My daughter would highly enjoy it too. She is 7 and likes snakes like me. Take care and maybe I'll talk to you in the future. Thank you. SDM.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: May 7th, 2011, 2:19 am 

Joined: May 2nd, 2011, 10:46 pm
Posts: 40
Location: Southern Oregon
Growing up in Ca. these are my favorite snakes from the west coast. I remember finding one as a 10 yo kid that my mother would not let me keep. Thats when my habit as a snake junky started. I searched aimlessly for years before finding places I could find them. You have a beautiful collection and are doing what I've dreamed about since i was a kid. Being 34 now my mom cant say much. I have found one so far this year in OR. but I don't want to take wild ones and they are protected in OR. . I would be the happiest guy in the world if i was gifted a pair. I would like to breed zonatas aswell and definately not for profit. I would also gift the offspring. So if you guys gifting would keep me in mind i would appreciate it more than words could explain. My wife would be happy too because thats almost all she hears about.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: May 26th, 2011, 9:54 am 
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Joined: April 7th, 2011, 7:12 am
Posts: 42
any word on when these beauties are planning to hatch :)


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: May 29th, 2011, 8:30 pm 
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Joined: June 14th, 2010, 7:30 pm
Posts: 273
Location: Santa Clara Co
Awesome idea guys! Thanks for sharing the pics Mitch, awesome Z's. Let me know when they are out, I would love to see them if you have time! I might even take one if you twist my arm... lol
-Nick


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: June 1st, 2011, 4:33 pm 
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Joined: June 1st, 2011, 1:05 pm
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Location: San Diego
You have an amazing collection of zonata! As others have posted before me; as a resident of CA (San Diego) I was under the impression that the only way to obtain one was by collecting a wild one (illegal here in SD as they are protected which I'm sure you know) and unfortunately I have never come across one while herping elsewhere in the state. I would love to work with zonata and would be very interested in the gifting process. I think its a fantastic way to limit destruction and satisfy demand for those who would go out and obtain one through other means.
-Shaun


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: June 2nd, 2011, 1:19 am 
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Joined: June 7th, 2010, 5:19 am
Posts: 1994
Location: Redding, CA
This is an absolutely amazing idea.

Unfortunately I'm reducing my herp collection, and don't want to get any more new specimens for awhile as I may end up moving at some point (or I might not) in next few years and I don't know how that will impact what I can keep, or I'd be all over this. It's possible I may end up back east for a few years.

Santa Cruz Mt. locale have always been my favorite, I hope this concept works and a good base of captive breeders will exist when things are more stable on my end.

I'm still waiting on my first non DOR lifer zonata - but don't worry, I've no intentions to keep any I do find and certainly no intentions to damage habitat while looking.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: June 6th, 2011, 9:15 pm 
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Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:25 pm
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Location: Turlock, Ca.
I also Love this idea and would support it completely. I was wandering if any of you that have the permit, could help explain how to go about getting one. What hoops you all had to jump through, inspections, cost incurred, who to talk to to get it, and once you have one what is expected of you to keep it? :sleep:onata

Thank you,
Gary C.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: June 7th, 2011, 6:52 am 
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Just go to the DFG website and look up the native reptile captive propagation permit. No hoops, just money. :) All you have to do is fill it out, send it in with your money (approx. $60), and wait for it to come back. Also, if you have a local DFG office you could probably stop by there and get it. Either way, it is easy to get. All they want is to know what you've collected, etc. Simple, easy. Whalla. Enjoy.

scott


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: June 15th, 2011, 9:17 pm 
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Joined: December 7th, 2010, 7:12 pm
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Location: AZ
Mitch,
I would absolutely love to get a pair. I only work with boids but would love to have some mountain kings. All the ones I encounter during herping get photographed and released on the spot. So if you wouldnt mind passing some over I would love to have them.
-Carlos


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: June 23rd, 2011, 10:56 am 

Joined: May 2nd, 2011, 10:46 pm
Posts: 40
Location: Southern Oregon
Are they here yet? The suspense is killing me.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: June 27th, 2011, 1:34 pm 
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Hello everyone,

I just wanted to give you updates on where I am in the hatching process and to answer a few questions. First, you have to actually call the license and revenue department of DF&G and ask for them to mail you a permit application. They don't offer the permit online for download, as I think they'd like to know exactly how many people are interested in keeping native herps. You'll request the commercial propagation permit; they give you the option to list "commercial" or "non-commercail" when listing the species you're planning on working with. With the zonata you'll need to list each subspecies you want to work with separately and then be sure to circle the non-commercial designation.

As for hatchlings, I still have none that have hatched yet. I have several eggs that are due this week, but the bulk of the hatchlings won't hatch for another month. After that it should only take a bit of time to get them feeding. After they're feeding I'll happily begin sending them out to their adoptive parents.

Lastly, I just want to be crystal clear with my gifting practices and what I expect of the adoptive parent. These animals should never be used commercially in any way. If you decide to adopt an animal, if ever you choose to part ways with it, you should do nothing more than re-gift the animal to another trustworthy individual. Any person I gift animals to who I find out has traded or sold that animal, or given them to someone else who will be using them strictly for commercial purposes, I will give your information to DFG. After talking to law enforcement regarding my captive progeny I have been told that all of my hatchlings fall under the protection of my non-commercial license, and to sell or trade them would be a direct violation of the regulations within the permit. Furthermore, if you're an out-of-stater that receives a gifted hatchling and trades or sells it, it would then be considered a Lacy Act violation, a federal charge that is simply not worth incurring because of a snake! I realize this might seem harsh, but I don't want my hatchlings used commercially. What you choose to do with hatchlings you produce is completely up to you. I swear I'm not trying to scare anyone off, I just want all of you to know the laws that I have to follow and how those laws pertain to the adoptive parties.

Mitch


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: June 27th, 2011, 2:51 pm 
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Location: Seguin, Texas U.S.A.
Mitch,

Seems like very reasonable expectations. Sue and I are certainly still interested in adopting a pair of them once they become available.

Gerald


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: June 27th, 2011, 6:02 pm 
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Thanks for mentioning out of staters. I was wondering if I needed a permit. I live in Illinois and have a freezer full of rodents of various sizes. I would love to be an adoptive parent.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: June 27th, 2011, 6:25 pm 

Joined: May 2nd, 2011, 10:46 pm
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Location: Southern Oregon
No problemo. How long before they are sexually mature? I'm guessing 2-3 years of age. How much is overnight shipping from where your at to Medford,OR.? UPS or FEDEX?


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: June 27th, 2011, 8:31 pm 
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Hello again,

I just wanted to say that out-of-staters don't need to get a permit from DFG. It's only California residents that need the permit if they ever want to have more than a single snake. However, as I said above, out-of-staters still have to adhere to the regulations written into the permit. That's all.

Anyhow, shipping from my end will be done thru FedEx (I'm not sure what shipper Rick will be using). If you want an animal, you'll need to set up an account with FedEx so that you can have an account number that the shipping can be billed to. I won't accept payment for shipping as that could possibly be construed as something else. If money is never exchanged, even for shipping, there can never be any kind of misunderstanding legally.

Well, off to the snake room to remove uneaten pinky heads! Yay!!

Mitch


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: June 30th, 2011, 5:24 pm 

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
Posts: 8025
Location: Hesperia, California.
Will Ca residents with non-commercial propagation permits be given any preferential consideration over folks hoping to have only one? Your stated plans to saturate the market with generations of gifted Z's tends to make me they might.
Just trying to figure out my best course of action, in regards to being considered as a recipient.
Also, can one hold both commercial and non-commercial permits, and would that matter to you? Best regards... jim


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: July 2nd, 2011, 6:33 pm 
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Joined: December 7th, 2010, 7:12 pm
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Location: AZ
Mitch,
I think you are going about this the correct way. As far as shipping goes for us out of state guys, using a fedex account seems to be the most sensible manner. Also have you looked into the legalities of sendiing a paypal shipping payment. I believe paypal allows for shipping payment that are independent from other transactions.
-Carlos


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: July 3rd, 2011, 7:38 am 

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
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Location: Hesperia, California.
Can we, if gifted, pick them up in person? Always looking for an excuse to herp Nor Cal... :D jim


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: July 3rd, 2011, 8:42 am 
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hellihooks wrote:
Can we, if gifted, pick them up in person? Always looking for an excuse to herp Nor Cal... :D jim


That'd be cool if we can pick up at some location...maybe I'll bump into Jim Hellihooks and herp haha!


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: July 12th, 2011, 5:05 am 

Joined: August 30th, 2010, 1:39 pm
Posts: 103
Location: Columbia, MO
I know it is futile to contact you about the gifting and when it will happen. However, I just couldn't help myself. I am still looking for that perfect snake to keep as a pet for my daughter and I. I have a pretty large tank with a great set up of heat, light, hiding and everything else. I have found one Zonata in the wild (Oak Creek Canyon Arizona). It was a large adult and of course I wasn't going to keep something like that but I always remember how cool that snake was. I am not sure how I plan on seeing your post when the babies come out but I think I'll check this site every 10 minutes until the end of September. Hehehehe. Just kidding. Hope to talk to you in the future. Have a great time watching all those babies hatch. Sincerely, SDM. PS...I have successfully bred and hatched snakes and lizards myself.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: July 12th, 2011, 5:34 am 
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Location: Seguin, Texas U.S.A.
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I have found one Zonata in the wild (Oak Creek Canyon Arizona).


Lampropeltis zonata does not occur in Arizona. Perhaps what you found in Oak Creek Canyon was an Arizona Mountain Kingsnake (Lampropeltis pyromelana).

-Gerald


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: July 12th, 2011, 7:35 am 

Joined: August 30th, 2010, 1:39 pm
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Location: Columbia, MO
Hey Keown....thank you for the correction....so I don't sound uneducated in the future. I'm serious. For some reason I was thinking that all mountain kingsnakes were Zonata's. I have been catching and photographing reptiles since about 1982 or so (since I was 11) but have never really investigated the scientific names of herps. Maybe it is my ADHD that keeps me from reading a lot. I like to read short articles.

Anyway, you are 100% correct!!! What I found was absolutely and most certainly an Arizona Mountain Kingsnake. PS...I open to any other information you feel like saying. Thanks again keown. Sincerely, SDM.



keown wrote:
Quote:
I have found one Zonata in the wild (Oak Creek Canyon Arizona).


Lampropeltis zonata does not occur in Arizona. Perhaps what you found in Oak Creek Canyon was an Arizona Mountain Kingsnake (Lampropeltis pyromelana).

-Gerald


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: July 12th, 2011, 7:53 am 
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Not a problem. It could happen to any of us. ;) Who knows with the way taxonomy is constantly changing nowdays next week they may all actually be lumped together and be called something totally different. :roll: Pyros are an equally interesting and beautiful species within their own right. 8-)

-Gerald


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: July 13th, 2011, 12:31 pm 
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Joined: June 11th, 2010, 4:21 pm
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pyros are also a lot more widely available!


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: July 13th, 2011, 1:01 pm 

Joined: May 2nd, 2011, 10:46 pm
Posts: 40
Location: Southern Oregon
Oak Creek Canyon is one of the best places to find pyros. :thumb: I found 2 pyros (city herping :lol: ) at the pet store the other day for only $49.99 each. Beauts 4 only 50 bucks, I remember when they were $200 plus.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: July 14th, 2011, 4:28 am 

Joined: August 30th, 2010, 1:39 pm
Posts: 103
Location: Columbia, MO
Thank you guys for being nice about me saying Zonata as opposed to Pyro. I appreciate that. Anyway, It's been about 6 years since I was able to just go out in my own back yard in the desert and find some really cool herps and I miss those days. Columbia Missouri is not bad but I'd have to say the desert herps beat this any day of the week (I know there are many folks that would disagree but it really is a subjective thing). Not that Pyros are found in the desert...but I just miss all the herps in Arizona and often feel like expressing that. Later ya'll. Herp for life!!!!!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: August 7th, 2011, 9:15 pm 

Joined: July 29th, 2011, 4:55 pm
Posts: 31
Hi Mitch.
My son ( he is 15 now) and I have been searching for Zonatas for many years in the San Bernardino Mountains. We do not believe in distruction of habitat, so most of our "hunting" consists of road cruizing and hiking in what we research as suitable habitat. Well, a couple of years ago we finally came across a single specimen ( OK, I will admitt it, thanks to Hubbs book :roll: ). But guess what, it was DOR. It was a beautiful adult male, still fresh, we probably found it within 15 minutes of being run over. This was our holy grail. My son and I were about to cry! JK.
We have been breeding California Kings off and on for about 20 years and do not sell them. I used to have a DF&G breeding license, but since I have not been trying to sell them, I don't see a big need for it, and have not renewed for about three years now. All my babies over the years have been gifted to friends and relatives.
We actually decided to keep some Tarahumaras instead, especially since they were able to be purchased legaly and they do have some of the same color charachteristics as the Zonatas. We got them when they were a week old, and they should be ready to breed next spring. They are doing very well so far.
I would like to do the honorable thing as you are, and would like to gift any Zonata offspring we would produce, and maybe hold back some now and then for future breeding purposes. We would never consider selling them. We understand that an endeaver such as this is a long term commitment. One of my California kings was hatched by us six years ago and is going strong.
We are wondering if there has been anything new on your Zonatas, and if it might be possible for us to receive a pair to try to contribute and help distribute some future gifted snakes to help bring down the demand for wild specimens What a great idea and noble cause!
Thank you for your consideration, Kidcury.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: August 9th, 2011, 9:42 pm 
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Just had to comment that I found my first wild zonata a few days ago on a backpacking trip-a coastal perched in a sunfleck on a charred redwood stump...totally unexpected find as I was looking for a place to dig a hole and obey the call of nature. After some photos and videos the snake was released...but my friend I was with really wanted to keep it. I wonder if I could surprise him with a baby?


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: September 1st, 2011, 9:47 pm 

Joined: July 29th, 2011, 4:55 pm
Posts: 31
Just wondering if this is really going to happen. I never even received a response. I understand it is totally your decision who would get these wonderful gifted animals, but a PM saying they were already given away would have been nice, or the progress of this project. Or something to that affect. Just curious at this point. It would have only taken a second to shoot off an e-mail. No offense intended. I hope you understand. It just seemed to good to be true anyway. If they are all already distributed, good job. It might keep some people from doing damage to the habitat, we all hope.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: September 5th, 2011, 6:22 am 
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Location: Seguin, Texas U.S.A.
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Soooooo, WHEN hatchlings are ready to go I will be gifting out a ton. I WILL NOT gift a hatchling to anyone I feel will misuse the gifting and use the animal in any commercial aspect (i.e., trade, barter, are sale). This is really just a gift, and if anyone who receives an animal ever tires of it they should simply do what was done for them, gift the animal to someone else. I realize this is an unrealistic view, but I will do my best to practice responsible gifting to those who I think will truly cherish these little gems. Right now though there are no babies. And because I WILL NOT keep a waitlist or EVER promise a snake to anyone it really would be futile to contact me about acquiring a snake. When the time comes I'll make another post (or maybe amend this one) letting everyone know that FREE ZONATA are here! We should all be able to enjoy these snakes without having to give anything monetarily to do so. Remember, if for some reason I don't produce something this year....there's always next year...and the one after that...and the one after....and the one after that....


Perhaps where the misunderstanding came from was with Mitch's initial post, indicating that he would not be keeping waitlist of people wanting them and that he would make a another post here or amend his original post letting people know that the free animals were here and available. Some of the folks here honored his request not to be bugging him about them before he had them ready to go and waited patiently for him to indicate that they were ready before contacting him. His follow-up post never came, so obviously waiting to make the request was a mistake on the part of those who waited.

Miscommunications do happen, but there is always another year.

-Gerald


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: September 5th, 2011, 9:41 am 
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So this isn't happening for anyone who didn't get an email? I emailed and never got a response... It wouldn't take that long to make a canned response and put it out to all the people who were waiting to hear back. Honestly, at this point sounds like BS that didn't really happen for anyone. That's of course because we haven't had any communication at all.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: September 5th, 2011, 10:19 am 
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Location: San Diego
Can't really get angry about something offered for free that didn't materialize (no I didn't get one either). There's always next year and if we are lucky enough to be presented with this opportunity again hopefully communication will be better. Thanks again to those involved with this project as it is still done with the best intentions and I am sure takes a considerable amount of time and effort!


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: September 5th, 2011, 1:22 pm 
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Location: Seguin, Texas U.S.A.
Justinm,

I don't think it was BS. While I don't personally know Mitch, but from what I do know of him, he just does not come off like someone that would just do that for the sake of BS. I still think it was a legitimate deal and a worthwhile project and that perhaps for some reason during the process he had to change gears as to how he was handling the gifting of them. Yeah, I'm sort of disappointed also, I set up a FedEx account to be able to allow him to ship to me at my expense and I'd been monitoring this thread daily for several months waiting for word that he was ready to start the gifting process...but it never came. Why the change, I don't know, but it is not something to to dwell on. Time to move on and perhaps hope for a better deal next time around.

-Gerald


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: September 5th, 2011, 2:10 pm 

Joined: July 29th, 2011, 4:55 pm
Posts: 31
keown, our feelings exactly, just tried to be patient and follow his wishes to wait for him to post again, but it never happened. Oh well, we will just keep looking with with out destroying as we always have...It is the way it should be anyway. Kidcury23.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: September 5th, 2011, 2:21 pm 

Joined: July 29th, 2011, 4:55 pm
Posts: 31
And Paul, yes I did send an e-mail directly to Mitch with no response. I guess he was just too busy for us. Again, it is ok, he can do what he wants with his snakes. Just shouldn't get peoples hope up for nothing, and ignore us. Like I said, I will just keep looking, not that big a deal. I have my own projects in the works. They are exciting to me and keep me busy and broke enough already. Kidcury23.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: September 5th, 2011, 7:23 pm 
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Hello everyone,

Well, after reading the last eight or so posts it appears that several of you are extremely upset that your PM's were not responded to. I'll be very honest with you, I responded to the first ten to fifteen, but then I simply couldn't find the time to explain or respond to the rest. I was inundated with requests, and that is fine, but there is no way I would ever be able to meet those requests this year. I produced thirty or so zonata this year that have already been placed in the hands of people who have been asking for a possible donation for years. I wish I could have produced more, but snakes don't always do what we'd like them to do...and I think that's usually most of the fun with this hobby. There will be more next year, and the year after that...and so on. If you were one of the people who PM'd me, and you used your real name (many did not...and I simply won't gift a snake to someone who I don't know who you are), my goal is to make sure I can get you a gifted snake last year. Yes, I have really been meaning to put an update post here on the forum, but to my forgetfulness, I did not. Animals were gifted, that was the important part, but the post kept getting shelved because everything else kept coming up. As I said, if you sent me an email or PM and there was nothing shady about your intentions, then my intentions are to get you a gifted animal. This year hatchlings from the following locales were produced and gifted from my home: Mt. Hamilton, Santa Cruz whiteheads, Santa Barbara, Ventura Co., and Tuolumne Co.. All those locales should go again next year, with juveniles that were too small this year breeding for the first time next season. Btw, if you are posting here and using a pseudonym, it makes me not want to consider gifting to you because I have no freaking clue who you are. Just sign off with your real name so at least you're not a phantom herper. Anyhow, I hope those of you that didn't get animals understand that this is the beginning of a very long breeding program for me and others, and things always take a bit to get going. Well, have a wonderful night, enjoy your families and herps, and I look forward to making you smile next year. Lastly, please, please, please, understand that if you PM or email me it's just too damn hard to respond to all the emails. I have a family with a wife and three children, a graduate degree where I'm in my last year and writing my dissertation, and over 500 snakes to care for. That's a ton of responsibility, so I ask you to understand why I can't get back to you. I do apologize for not making that follow-up post like I said I would (good call Gerald) and I'll do my very best to remain timely with such posts in the future. Take care everyone.

Mitch


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: September 6th, 2011, 1:46 am 

Joined: July 29th, 2011, 4:55 pm
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Thank you Mitchell, this was all we were asking for. I totally understand where you are coming from and appreciate the sincere response. Good luck in the future and I am sorry if this post caused you and yours any grief in any way. It is a great idea with a noble cause and should be continued in the future, IMO, what ever it is worth. I could see with such a popular species where it could become overwhelming.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: September 11th, 2011, 8:01 am 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:46 pm
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What are the chances of someone from California getting preapproved to non-commercially breed zonata?

I have seen the Commercial/Non-Commercial application but never went forward. You have to list all the snakes you have so can you get approved for zonata even though you possess zero and then accept a few pairs of cb's as a gift?

Rick and Mitch, since you have experience dealing with CAF&G I would especially appreciate your input.

As I understand it CA residents approved to non-commercially breed zonata may have 1 wc specimen and up to 29 cb specimens, or 30 in the aggregate. So couldn't you just get preapproved and then accept up to 30 cb specimens? Realistically one would only want to start with a few pairs so there's room to add babies later.

Or if you applied do you think CAF&G would just cross out the part about zonata and just approve you for the typical commercial species of Cal Kings, Rosies and Gophers? I heard about a guy who wanted to breed the commercial species and later he tried to add Longnose in the non-commercial catagory but they just crossed out the Longnose and then approved the commercial species.

Mitch and Rick, the more people actually breeding these things the better your plan would work, right?


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: September 11th, 2011, 5:23 pm 

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
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I would be very interested in the reply to Aron's questions, as well. And I understand and appreciate your position when it comes to the gifting order... gives me one more spring to find one on my own (been refusing all but the most general of advice, and NO spots! Matter of pride n all that...to figure it out on my own :crazyeyes: ) jim


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: February 9th, 2012, 8:38 am 
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Thats a great idea/ plan M. Mulks. I always wanted a pair of San Mateo Zonata for me and my two sons but did not want to take them from the wild.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: February 9th, 2012, 11:57 pm 
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Mitchell Mulks wrote:
Any person I gift animals to who I find out has traded or sold that animal, or given them to someone else who will be using them strictly for commercial purposes, I will give your information to DFG. After talking to law enforcement regarding my captive progeny I have been told that all of my hatchlings fall under the protection of my non-commercial license, and to sell or trade them would be a direct violation of the regulations within the permit. Furthermore, if you're an out-of-stater that receives a gifted hatchling and trades or sells it, it would then be considered a Lacy Act violation, a federal charge that is simply not worth incurring because of a snake!



Not wanting your snakes commercialized is one thing, and I think the people with whom you coordinate the gifts should honor that, but frankly I don't think CA DFG is within their authority to dictate what happens to an animal gifted to someone out of state, who either uses it to make more snakes, or sells it to someone else. Has there been any precedent which would back up DFG's claim?

This is akin to people I've talked to in Australia saying that technically every bearded dragon in the pet industry is descended from illegally-obtained WC stock and therefore all owners of said dragons are subject to criminal prosecution.

I ask not because I'm interested in your snakes, but because I've heard the same thing from an LE member on a similar matter. To me it sounds like wishful thinking on the part of LE (or DFG in general) in deterring someone from doing something they disagree with, but which is not illegal.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: June 14th, 2012, 1:58 pm 
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Anyone have any idea if the gifting will occur again this year or has the project gone by the wayside? (Mainly I'm more curious to just see pics of this years pairings as my year for finding z's has been beyond abysmal.....)


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 Post subject: jgunn: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchli
PostPosted: July 22nd, 2012, 6:11 am 
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Hello Mitch, et al. interesting thread i just happened to stumble into. So here it tiz; 7.2012 im just curious how your project has evolved-matured and express my condolences to you for having so many freeking z's to maintain!
I did a similar thing (on a much smaller scale) years ago w/ rock boas, long before the craze & gifted many, primarily to teachers, but that was before i came to realize how bad c/b rosys are for kids to handle ... haha ... i can only surmise how many snake phobias i must have inadvertently created... Ah that old law of unintended consequences again! Finally a crypto snake (from a fellow biologist) grotesquely ended my project & after the disgust of freezing tub loads of beautiful boas, i was a free lad again.
I do not need $$ from my hobbies & thus dont choose to sell anything, but i dont disagree w/ sales per se as a modest price tag goes along way to predicting a minimum of care. The gouging we see in indigos and perhaps heloderms tho does offend me & thus i wont play w/ them. Interesting to note that even in this depression indigo prices have remained high, probably a cartel somewhere ... lol
Coupla thoughts; one the rock damage really is gross, but likely has a minimal effect on these & other saxicolous herps as there are simply too many large crevices, subterreanean crevices, & other shelter sites available, we monkeys can only exploit a tiny fraction & usually only close to the roads where the visual impact is offensive. We should not let this aesthetic impact play into the agenda of the prohibitionistas though that really want american herps managed as we do our songbirds rather than as we do our pocket mice. Ever raised a jay or cardinal? ... what a wonderful intro to nature appreciation.
two; I'd consider exploring the possibility (w univ &-or cdfg partnerships) of using your progeny to repopulate extirpated urban locales, partic parks & sanctuaries surrounded by barriers such as the sea/freeways/dense habitations etc. Their persistence in these limited areas might provide new mngmt insights. Obviously releasing them into known extent pops would be highly reckless & ill-advised.
For my own part, as ghastly as this will sound, & from Ricks post a few years ago, I'd be curious to test weather zonata recognize the scent of regal ringnecks and respond in any particular manner (some sps. do & interestingly some do not) ... may iitoi forgive me! I would think some avian types might be interested in using them for testing bird responses to micrurid mimics too.
Lastly, They are w/o a doubt (haha) the 2'nd most gorgeous small snake in the US : }

Good luck w/ your endeavors, and be good to those kids, they like most neonates grow up just too damned fast. Salud / John Gunn :


edit 2014, deleted sections regarding maintaining a pair & email addy ... :p


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: August 7th, 2014, 9:55 pm 
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I was looking back at some past threads and I just noticed this statement. It was interesting as i had just got through feeding my multifasciata, who was out rambling when i came home from work..

jerry kruse wrote:
I've never known a neonate zonata to be interested in a baby-food-scented pinky after they've been pumped with the stuff for months. Starvation and supplements, most of the time, do not work. Scenting is very, very KEY.



I have - Mine. He has never gone hungry - tubed as a neo and then transitioned to day old thawed. He was a gift right out of the egg from legally collected WC parents that were owned by a fellow herpetoculturist with non commercial breeder permit. Has never smelled a scelop. He is an adult now around 34" . He has a good appetite and has always caught a faster trigger when i smear the mouse head with a melted chip of slurry, which I keep a variety of slurry types in frozen wafer form to have handy for use, for rehab and service purposes. The slurry i used with him when neo and with most snakes is a blend of raw poultry meat and liver.

I do not think snakes are individually hardwired neurobehaviorally. So I do not think my zonata is an unusual exception, and have experienced similiar with other lampropeltis species from a much more extensive platform, like hatchling greybands. For them I have used simple scenting method of a bit of crushed urea from leopard geckos, after tube feeding them a few times.

I used the slurry dab on a lark with my multifasciata once when i noticed shy and subtle flight from the slightly larger thwd he had sized up into, and he responded to it with a complete shift and seized it immediantly. So now i just do it every time and he accepts faster.

The avian tissue might be less threatening, or in some unknown biochemical factor close enough when raw to saurian, but he certainly wasnt "scarred" by his neo tube feeding experience, as he has had the very opposite of an adverse reaction to its scent.

Just thought it might be of interest to share, and note that some of what has been cemented as gospel may have more potential solutions for us to explore.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: August 8th, 2014, 6:09 pm 
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intrsting Kelly, remind me its a no for dinner unless im makin it :p
It does work tho, someone posted a website where the guy had an eastern corale venom lab & just pumped adults w/ 25-30 gms i believe, of nutrient slurry ... it still seems so wrong ... even if its a whole lot easier & likely humane ... shrugs icon ...


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: August 8th, 2014, 7:11 pm 
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Hi Regal ~*~ we havent talked in a long time. Yes it would be better if you made dinner, but i do make a mean dubia n' fruit salad. (i do!)

Yes i saw the Coral work too, i think the purpose there was being able to achieve independence from having to supply enough snakes to a large collection, but i just use it as a transitional way of nourishing the neo to garner an appetite, which for some can mean geographic independence as well, if they have acquired a baby snake that would target species that are not in their part of the country, etc, or if they just choose not to use wild lizards, frogs, But for fun, if you thought of it as being able to magically make a nourishing meal appear in the body of a non eating neo, and know it was with the outcome of the snake eating on their own, it may strike a less out of tune note.

But really the thing that i find fascinating though are feeding cues - scent and other sensory triggers. They are not as locked in feeder phenotype as is cannonized presently, i have found, with various guys.


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: August 8th, 2014, 7:33 pm 
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Oh hey the dubia fruit thing was re some lizards I have. Clarifying :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: 2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings
PostPosted: August 9th, 2014, 6:33 am 
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regalringneck wrote:
intrsting Kelly, remind me its a no for dinner unless im makin it :p

In my kitchen you're OK so long as you stay away from the garlic press. And the coffee grinder. And one each of the ice cube trays and muffin pans. And the food vacuum pump and any of its associated resealable zipper bags and jelly jars. Oh, and particular sections of both the refrigerator and freezer, of course... Aw hell, let's just eat out. ;)

I'm a big believer in tubing/pumping/whatever-you-want-to-call it, as you guys know. There are just some species that are too difficult to work with otherwise.

As to the question of how important scenting is, I can't help but think it probably depends a lot on life stage. Perhaps (in some species, at least) it's vitally important to the voluntary acceptance of a neonate's prey that it smell right, but if one gets the snake past a certain age by tubing then scent becomes much less important. Certainly there are all kinds of behavioral cues (and corresponding behaviors) that turn on and off in response to life stage in pretty much every kind of vertebrate that's been examined for such.

Gerry


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