New Flickr

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qaz
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New Flickr

Post by qaz »

Well, I know there's a lot of Flickr users on this site, including me. Does anyone like the new layout? I can't stand it! The only addition I like is the cover photo...

Lets hear what you guys have to say about it.
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Stohlgren
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Re: New Flickr

Post by Stohlgren »

Sucks ass! That is all I have to say at the moment.
Tamara D. McConnell
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Re: New Flickr

Post by Tamara D. McConnell »

I hate it to the very marrow of my bones.
I can't figure out how to edit photos anymore.
I don't even have words for how much I hate the changes. And I used to passionately love Flickr.
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JAMAUGHN
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Re: New Flickr

Post by JAMAUGHN »

The only thing I like about it is that currently my homepage displays a picture of a box turtle in a plant saucer taken by Tamara McConnell.

That's about the only good thing I have to say about the new Flickr.

JimM
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Soopaman
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Re: New Flickr

Post by Soopaman »

This afternoon it looked like hell when they were rolling out the changes and nobody knew what was going on.

I don't particular like stuff when it's new and thrown in my face like that, but it seems to be a bit cleaned up and working right now. I don't hate it and I can get used to it but I don't think that they're going to benefit from trying to make Flickr more "Facebook-ish."
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El Garia
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Re: New Flickr

Post by El Garia »

I aint got the words to say how much I hate it.
Tamara D. McConnell
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Re: New Flickr

Post by Tamara D. McConnell »

I would love to hear some recommendations for other photo hosting services (not Photobucket), because Flickr and me are probably going to get a divorce.
Matt Buckingham
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Re: New Flickr

Post by Matt Buckingham »

It was a weak move and handled poorly in my opinion. Flickr does have an ideas/feedback thread for us to comment in. I have my doubts that any comments will be taken seriously, but there have been thousands of negative comments made about the new layout already, and very few positives.

Here is a criticism I provided on that thread:

I think it's pretty clear that we won't be getting the "old" Flickr back. Unfortunately I feel like putting this "feedback" section on the page was just to make us feel like our opinion is important to the powers at be. If that's the case, than frankly I wish they wouldn't patronize us and would just tell us the way it is.

Since I don't think we'll be seeing the old flickr again, maybe the development team will at least be open to suggestions. Here are mine:

1. The new home page is pretty and all, but please separate the recent posting of contacts from the recent activity on our accounts. To see these independently now is a big hassle.

2. IMMEDIATELY fix the full screen function so it DOES NOT display our photos at resolutions greater than the resolution we posted the photo at! I don't want to post full size photos for public viewing, and I DO NOT appreciate my photos being displayed in a manner that pixelates them and makes them appear to have inferior quality.

3. IMMEDIATELY remove all of the lame generic cover photos. These photos are misrepresenting LEGITIMATE photographers. Leave the cover photo space blank until someone decides to put a photo up.

4. Give us the option to choose how we display our photostream. I include a lot of educational information with my photos. That info is important to my images, and in the new layout it gets completely lost. Give us the option to choose a different photostream layout so we can have our captions displayed with our images in plain sight.

5. I understand my pro account (which is now useless..imagine if someone bought a pro account just a couple days before this revamp only to find it was now obsolete?) will expire in January, and since it's not a recurring payment, that I will lose it forever. Does this mean I won't be able to see my stats? Seeing those stats is extremely important to me. Please give us the option to keep the stats.

Things change, I get it, but this was a huge change all at once and is really a slap in the face to faithful users. Please consider these criticisms and improve the changes you've made.


Here's a link to the thread for any who care to comment:

http://www.flickr.com/help/forum/en-us/ ... 547442506/
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Stohlgren
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Re: New Flickr

Post by Stohlgren »

You nailed it, Matt. If they make those changes, I could work with it. If not, I'm with Tamara. Flickr had the best photo hosting site many of us had come across. It was plain jane, but extremely functional and intuitive. They decided to completely revamp it and make it in your face, with photos everywhere and little text. In the process they lost all of the functionality of the original setup.

Also, that cover photo thing is really pissing me off. I downsize my photos to 1024 pixels wide before uploading. That resolution is too low to make a usable cover photo. So I tried to upload a full size photo, but make it private so that it would not be seen on my photostream, and then use it as the cover photo. This is not allowed. Maybe I am just stubborn, but I refuse to upload a full size photo that can easily be stolen. So I'm stuck with that lame generic photo for now.
Matt Buckingham
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Re: New Flickr

Post by Matt Buckingham »

Stohlgren wrote:Also, that cover photo thing is really pissing me off. I downsize my photos to 1024 pixels wide before uploading. That resolution is too low to make a usable cover photo. So I tried to upload a full size photo, but make it private so that it would not be seen on my photostream, and then use it as the cover photo. This is not allowed. Maybe I am just stubborn, but I refuse to upload a full size photo that can easily be stolen. So I'm stuck with that lame generic photo for now.
One option you might have is to just upload like a plain black background or something, and set that as your cover photo.
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kaptainkory
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Re: New Flickr

Post by kaptainkory »

Great job Flickr! My photostream won't even load this morning. What good is a photo site that can't handle loading photos? Brilliant!

Unfortunately, I'm too tied to it now to just drop it. I guess I'll wait and see...but they just ticked off a LOT of users!
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Nshepard
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Re: New Flickr

Post by Nshepard »

Matt and Kevin you both nailed it.

Way too busy with little functionality and text.

The other half of it, past the lost of intuitive functionality, is that the 'major' update was half ass and has quite a few obvious bugs that should have been caught well before a launch. If you try and go to groups or collections, you'll see that the original framework is still there; its like they overlaid it with this new update. Flickr really messed up with their paying customers....we didn't want 500px we liked our flickr!
qaz
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Re: New Flickr

Post by qaz »

Thanks for the feedback guys. I agree with everything so far. I hope you guys don't leave the site; it's been a pleasure for me to see all of your photos, and many of them teach me new things and give me new inspiration.
RobertH
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Re: New Flickr

Post by RobertH »

I haven't used Flickr for very long, only about 2 months, and never had time to figure out or get used to the old Flickr. Maybe, that's a good thing.

One thing I don't like is that, as someone else already mentioned, there is no obvious way to edit anymore. If I click on the Edit button on the top of my photostream, it just displays the photostream in the old format (or something like it). When I then click on a picture, it opens up just as if I had never clicked edit. No edit option appears. I am beginning to think that just maybe, there no longer is an edit function. But then, why bother with putting an Edit button at the top. Confusing to say the least.

Btw, I just got a Pro Account and don't understand, Matt, why you seem to be saying that it may now be obsolete and will be lost. I would assume that as long as I renew my Pro account next year, everything will stay the same. Please explain what you meant.

Robert
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justinm
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Re: New Flickr

Post by justinm »

Robert, there really isn't any advantage to the pro account any longer unless you think you need more than 1 TB of storage. I don't think I have half that of keeper photos to be honest so I'm not that worried about it.
Tamara D. McConnell
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Re: New Flickr

Post by Tamara D. McConnell »

Robert, they are changing the pricing structure. The pro accounts as we know them are going to disappear, is my understanding...but you can buy an account for $499 per annum. There is also some option for a 49.99/month account.
I am just disgusted.
RobertH
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Re: New Flickr

Post by RobertH »

Thanks, guys. I see now what you mean.

I also figured out how to edit:

1. Click on a photo in your photostream
2. Click on the three white dots below the photo to open up the old "Actions" menu
3. Click on "edit in Aviary" near the top of the menu.

Robert
qaz
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Re: New Flickr

Post by qaz »

One thing I also miss is the option to see what settings and such people used to take their shots. Is that still available?
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ThatFrogGuy
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Re: New Flickr

Post by ThatFrogGuy »

Tamara D. McConnell wrote:I would love to hear some recommendations for other photo hosting services (not Photobucket), because Flickr and me are probably going to get a divorce.
http://www.ipernity.com/ resembles the "old flickr" and it looks like this is what I'm going to use from now on.
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El Garia
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Re: New Flickr

Post by El Garia »

Looks like ipernity is where I'll end up. Here's an app. that allows you to transfer files from your flickr account en masse: http://www.ipernity.com/apps/gm
Tamara D. McConnell
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Re: New Flickr

Post by Tamara D. McConnell »

Looks like ipernity is where I'll end up.
Looks good to me, too.
Jim, thanks for the nice words about the boxy. That little turtle has been one of our regular backyard visitors for the last 2 years. It flirts shamelessly with us for tomato slices.
Robert, I tried to edit a photo per your instructions, but "Edit photo with Aviary" never appears as an option. What am I doing wrong? When I click on the 3 dots I get a dropdown menu with choices, but none of them relate to editing.
RobertH
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Re: New Flickr

Post by RobertH »

Tamara, I had the same problem at first. I couldn't see the editing option. The reason, it turned out, is that the editing option is near the top of the menu and is hidden from view unless you "change the screen size." I am putting this in quotes because I am probably using the wrong terminology. What I do on my PC is press the "Control" key and the "minus sign" key at the same time. My son had the same problem on his Mac, and fixed the problem the same way, though I don't know what command he used to do it.

Now I am going to check out ipernity.com. Hey, this creates a real market opportunity for someone clever enough to capitalize on Yahoo's faux pas.

Robert
RobertH
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Re: New Flickr

Post by RobertH »

Just for those of you who haven't read this yet, here are Flickr's explanations of the status of Pro accounts:

Beginning of quote

" I’ve heard that Flickr Pro is no longer being offered. How does that affect me?

As of May 20, 2013, we are no longer offering Flickr Pro subscriptions to the majority of our members. Some things to be aware of (with more details below):

Recurring Pro members currently have the ability to continue renewing at the same price.
Eligible Pro members can get a prorated refund for a limited time.
Eligible non-recurring Pro members can purchase a recurring Pro subscription.
The “Gift of Pro” will no longer be available for purchase.
Pro users will no longer appear with a “Pro” badge beside their name or buddy icon

Your Pro pricing remains the same and your benefits have improved:

Those who remain Pro will retain all their original benefits.
The photo and video size limits will be upgraded to those offered with our new free account.
If you are on a recurring Pro subscription, your payments will remain as is. To see what your current subscription costs, see the previous payment on in your order history.
Pro members will never be automatically transitioned to an Ad Free or Doublr subscription.

If you’d like to switch to a free account:

Eligible Pro members who switch to a free account by August 20, 2013 can receive a prorated refund on their purchase and will lose their Pro benefits immediately.
Pro members who cancel Pro after August 20, 2013 will retain Pro benefits until their subscription expiration date.

If you’d like to keep your Pro membership:

Anyone who was Pro at 12:00 am (midnight) GMT on May 20, 2013, may be eligible to sign up for recurring Pro in order to extend their Pro membership beyond its expiration date.
This applies to:
those whose one-time or gift Pro memberships expired after 12:00 am GMT.
those who are on a gifted Pro account.
those who have purchased one-off Pro and are set to expire in the future.
To keep your Pro status by signing up for a recurring Pro subscription, visit the account order page.
If you cancel your recurring subscription or opt for the prorated refund, you will no longer have the option to sign up for a recurring subscription.
If your recurring subscription expires after May 20, 2013, due to a failed payment, please contact the billing team.

How to tell whether you are on a recurring payment plan:

Visit your account details page and look at “Your Flickr account”.
You are on a one-off or gift subscription if it says “It expires on [date].”
You are on a recurring subscription if it says “It will renew on [date].”
If your account has already expired you will not see a related date."

End of quote

Underlining added by me.

So, it looks to me as if at least those of us who have so-called "recurring" Pro accounts will not have to change to a different kind of plan or pay a different, higher price. Everything will stay the same. This is true for me and would seem to be true for most longtime Flickr Pro users.

Yes, you can now get 1 Terabyte for free, but that's still not unlimited, plus it's not ad-free and there some other benefits to a Pro account. So, I for one will try to get used to the new layout. No, I don't like it much, but once I figure it out, which I would also have to do if I switched to a different provider, I think the new Flickr will be sufficient for my personal purposes.

But I can well understand that those of you who have used Flickr for many years are outraged. The old adage "Don't fix it if it ain't broken" comes to mind. It seems that with very few exception, big companies eventually manage to ruin even the best and most successful products that way.

Robert
Tamara D. McConnell
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Re: New Flickr

Post by Tamara D. McConnell »

Tamara, I had the same problem at first. I couldn't see the editing option. The reason, it turned out, is that the editing option is near the top of the menu and is hidden from view unless you "change the screen size." I am putting this in quotes because I am probably using the wrong terminology. What I do on my PC is press the "Control" key and the "minus sign" key at the same time.
Yes! It works! Thank you, Robert H!
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kaptainkory
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Re: New Flickr

Post by kaptainkory »

Well, figured something out... We have Firefox 3.6.3 installed at work. The banner stuff loads on this browser, but then gives an endless display of the "loading" flickr symbol rather than loading the photostream. No graceful degradation, no warning, nothing.

The arrangement of my photos into collections is very important, yet one can even hardly dig up how to find the collections listed anymore. :?

Why was there no beta testing for such a MAJOR overhaul??? Flickr was wildly successful for a reason...it was lean, clean, and nimble. Now it's a HOG that takes way too long to load and when it does, it's totally IN YOUR FACE.

There is no way they are going to cave to the negative pressure and revert, so I see this ending badly for them. A challenger, whether ipernity or another, will arise.
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Nshepard
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Re: New Flickr

Post by Nshepard »

The main reason I am so pissed about this new format / update is not only because it is an utterly a horrible design, but because I signed up in 2005 and went pro very soon after. I've been using that service nearly daily (went not in the field) for the past 7 years, that is a chunk of time and a chunk of my life. AND for the staff to merely suggest that I should 'get used to it' is as huge an insult as the update itself. Its not what I payed for, its not the type of service I deserve or want. It's sort of crazy I was thinking about how they've never updated the look in all the years and I liked that consistency - then boom.

The new Flickr reaffirms my idea of a website arc. A given website starts with a good idea and proceeds to get better and better until function and design are perfect, however in the tune of progress this perfect ratio is usually forgotten and you have the downfall. My hope is someone can use flickr API to bring back the old look - think flickriver like.

I won't be able to abandon Flickr quite yet - given that so many websites, magazines, etc have been linked to my Flickr photostream and I have such a long history and I would loose a lot of great contacts and comments - and my photos / photostream still gets a fair amount of traffic. They still have a lot of functions I like that other photo hosting sites don't - archive, a suburb searching function, etc.
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Nshepard
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Re: New Flickr

Post by Nshepard »

kaptainkory wrote:A challenger, whether ipernity or another, will arise.
This is very true! And a reason I would wait till one is fit. Ipernity has a little bit of that old Flickr look but lacks all the in depth functionality of flickr as it is now.
qaz
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Re: New Flickr

Post by qaz »

Yea I agree. I hope you guys don't leave!
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mfb
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Re: New Flickr

Post by mfb »

I've long been a proponent of flickr, but I am very frustrated with the changes. I've had a great time meeting people and learning natural history through flickr. I have not yet decided if I'll delete my account.
Tamara D. McConnell
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Re: New Flickr

Post by Tamara D. McConnell »

I can deal with Flickr now that Robert H has explained some of the changes. I had to throw a fit initially, because that's just how I roll...but I'll probably keep on flickering. Adapting to the changes, as loathesome as they are, is probably easier than learning a whole new system.
Am keeping ipernity on the mental back burner, just in case.
qaz
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Re: New Flickr

Post by qaz »

Just out of curiosity is there still a way to see the settings that others used to take their pics?
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Stohlgren
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Re: New Flickr

Post by Stohlgren »

qaz wrote:Just out of curiosity is there still a way to see the settings that others used to take their pics?
When you are viewing someones photo, scroll down to find "Additional info (show_more)". Click on the show_more and the settings will show up (if the data was attached to the uploaded image).
qaz
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Re: New Flickr

Post by qaz »

Cool, thank you.
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Daniel D Dye
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Re: New Flickr

Post by Daniel D Dye »

Still don't like it! Doesn't load as fast as it used too.
matt ignoffo
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Re: New Flickr

Post by matt ignoffo »

I've been trying to give it a chance, but I find myself visiting fewer and fewer times. I can't tell if someone comments on one of my photos, or responds to a comment I added previously. Takes a long time to load too for some reason.

I really went in with an open mind and it's starting to close. Will be starting to look at other sites. I am not against change by any stretch, but I think there was a big mistake made here.

Matt
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TravisK
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Re: New Flickr

Post by TravisK »

I just started a Flikr account, post 'update', after ditching Photobucket. I ran out of storage on the free PB and hated all the ads. I miss some features of PB and Flickr has been hard to get used to. What I liked most about PB was how easy it was to grab links for posting in forum threads. Flickr has presented itself as being much more complicated in this regard.
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umop apisdn
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Re: New Flickr

Post by umop apisdn »

I agree, the availability of grabbing a link to a photo has always been something I considered a plus Photobucket had over Flickr. I've been a convert long enough now that I'm used to the few extra clicks...but it's still rather annoying.

I'd say that the new layout pretty much squashes your image views. Apparently, despite the fact I don't allow sharing of my photos, people on Twitter, Facebook, and Tumblr are taking images from my Flickr account and posting them. Often without attribution (which is the only thing I've ever asked). Since the layout change, my image view stats weigh much more heavily on other sites that have re-posted my images. It's pretty rare for any image I post to get more than 10-15 views in the first day anymore, but I guess I should be happy with getting a Getty invite through Flickr?
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chrish
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Re: New Flickr

Post by chrish »

I have never really liked Flicker, although I do have a free account with a few photos on it. I much prefer the simplicity of pbase.com. I have a pro account at pbase. It does have a 1GB limit, but I honestly don't need that much online space.

I will agree though that as much as I disliked Flickr's ergonomics before, it really sucks now! Does anyone know if their TOS changed with the new format? That would be my biggest concern.
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Antonsrkn
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Re: New Flickr

Post by Antonsrkn »

So now that its been around for a bit are people getting used to it? Does anyone actually like it now? I haven't uploaded to my flickr account in a few months because i didn't have a fast internet connection where I was based. Now I'm back, I don't like the new flickr as much as the old one either but I can work with it. I'm hoping people stick with flickr as I truly enjoy looking at all the photos posted by my contacts and would hate to lose that.

On a slightly different note, has anyone noticed increased views on their account after the change? Like I mentioned I stopped posting for a few months and I expected visits to my account to dwindle to nothing due to lack of new content. I left at around the time of the switch to the new format and instead of dropping my stats increased, without posting anything new I was consistently getting 100s of "views" a day and this has continued ever since. Did anyone else experience anything like this with the new flickr or is my case something unrelated?
qaz
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Re: New Flickr

Post by qaz »

I was just editing my photo stream and I was actually thinking about this. I don't mind it as much now.
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Nshepard
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Re: New Flickr

Post by Nshepard »

Antonsrkn wrote:So now that its been around for a bit are people getting used to it? Does anyone actually like it now? I haven't uploaded to my flickr account in a few months because i didn't have a fast internet connection where I was based. Now I'm back, I don't like the new flickr as much as the old one either but I can work with it. I'm hoping people stick with flickr as I truly enjoy looking at all the photos posted by my contacts and would hate to lose that.

On a slightly different note, has anyone noticed increased views on their account after the change? Like I mentioned I stopped posting for a few months and I expected visits to my account to dwindle to nothing due to lack of new content. I left at around the time of the switch to the new format and instead of dropping my stats increased, without posting anything new I was consistently getting 100s of "views" a day and this has continued ever since. Did anyone else experience anything like this with the new flickr or is my case something unrelated?
It still sucks, but I am used to it. Yeah, just recently (past month) I've starting seeing increased views and also my stats are different than what my image says view wise - seems to be a lot of people talking about that error but nothing from yahoo / flickr on what is going on and if they will ever fix it. It seems like the stats screen is going to be a thing of the past, when pro accounts lapse anyway. I got 3500 views on an image over two days, that beats by highest viewed image by 300 views which was uploaded in 2006. So, yeah...getting lots more views.
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Antonsrkn
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Re: New Flickr

Post by Antonsrkn »

Thanks for the input guys.
I've starting seeing increased views and also my stats are different than what my image says view wise - seems to be a lot of people talking about that error but nothing from yahoo / flickr on what is going on and if they will ever fix it. It seems like the stats screen is going to be a thing of the past, when pro accounts lapse anyway. I got 3500 views on an image over two days, that beats by highest viewed image by 300 views which was uploaded in 2006. So, yeah...getting lots more views
Bummer, guess my new found flickr popularity is just a glitch. I'll keep my day job.

Could the increased stats be caused by an influx of new users, more users means more views?

I'm going to go ahead and answer my own question here... doubtful that the new users could account for the perceived increased traffic on our photos, after all its unlikely that too many of the new users have a interest in our typical subjects.

Maybe the new flickr counts it as a view when someone scrolls past it in a group pool now? Maybe every time it briefly appears on someones screen its tallied as a view despite the fact they may never have clicked it or even noticed it? For me atleast the view # in the stats matches up with what it says on the photo page, but I have a hard time believing some of the #s i'm getting. Coincidentally my image that was previously most popular was still consistently getting the most views daily despite the fact that it was from 2009 until I started posting new material a few days ago.
Tamara D. McConnell
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Re: New Flickr

Post by Tamara D. McConnell »

It still sucks, but I am used to it.
I agree with this.
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Stohlgren
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Re: New Flickr

Post by Stohlgren »

Yeah, still hate it in general as it is still not as user friendly as it was before, but I am used to it now. I still wish the notifications were separate from my contacts recent uploads on the homepage. And I dislike that my sets aren't visible when someone views my photostream. I guess I do kind of like visual appeal to the photostream, but if your internet connection is slow, it is a big pain in the ass. The last thing I hate is that when someone adds a photos as a favorite the notifications says that person "faved" my photo. It's gotta be trendy though, I guess.
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Nshepard
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Re: New Flickr

Post by Nshepard »

Antonsrkn wrote:Bummer, guess my new found flickr popularity is just a glitch. I'll keep my day job.

Could the increased stats be caused by an influx of new users, more users means more views?

I'm going to go ahead and answer my own question here... doubtful that the new users could account for the perceived increased traffic on our photos, after all its unlikely that too many of the new users have a interest in our typical subjects.
I wouldn't say the number of views itself is a glitch, the stats just differ with what is reported on your image (sometimes, not all). I don't think this has to do with an increased viewership either. Someone pointed this out to me and suggested a new way flickr qualifies a view, and I think it makes sense. It used to be (old flickr) when someone clicked on your photo, it was view. Now, I think there are two ways a view can occur 1) someone clicks on your photo and views it and 2) someone simply scrolls over your images (without clicking on it). I think this is a way for flickr to increase perceived viewership (whatever their reasons). I do however, get more images faved than I used to, and I think that is caused by two things 1) its more hip (almost akin to facebook liking) and 2) someone can fave your photo without even clicking on it (due to the new format).
Stohlgren wrote:I still wish the notifications were separate from my contacts recent uploads on the homepage. And I dislike that my sets aren't visible when someone views my photostream. I guess I do kind of like visual appeal to the photostream, but if your internet connection is slow, it is a big pain in the ass. The last thing I hate is that when someone adds a photos as a favorite the notifications says that person "faved" my photo. It's gotta be trendy though, I guess.
I hate the all in one notifications feed. I try and always pull up the "Recent Activity" feed when I pull up flickr.
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Nshepard
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Re: New Flickr

Post by Nshepard »

Another thing I just noticed (perhaps this is new?) is the fact that my second row of tiles on my photostream are 1.5x the size of all my other rows (even my first row) - it looks really weird. I like consistency, in terms of photo size and in terms of look and layout.
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Antonsrkn
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Re: New Flickr

Post by Antonsrkn »

Dredging up an old thread, but Flickrs at it again! Their new "photo experience" as they are calling it is a preview of what they will be launching later this year. You can opt out of it (for now), I'm not a big fan of it but I only looked at it for a little bit and reverted to the prior view. What I don't understand is if its not broken why fix it? I glanced through the feedback for the upgrade and its overwhelmingly negative from the little bit I saw.
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Kevin Price
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Re: New Flickr

Post by Kevin Price »

This is all part of Yahoo's upgrading/changing since Marissa Mayer took over as CEO. Yahoo mail recently changed as well to a more Gmail type feel. Since she's from Google this kinda makes sense, except that everyone pretty much hates it now. Flickr is part of Yahoo and the 'Big makeover' going on there. I don't like the new Flickr at all, but I'm afraid it will only get worse as Yahoo 'improves' it.
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Stohlgren
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Re: New Flickr

Post by Stohlgren »

All of the feedback from the first big change was overwhelmingly negative, too, and they didn't give a crap. I didn't realize you could opt out of the new change, but I will be doing that. When they make it permanent, I may finally be out (or at least less active, since it is free now). I like the community of flickr, but it seems they are trying to make that more difficult with all of these changes. Might switch to smugmug. Seems like a lot more work to get it set up, but I can choose the format and they wont change it on me. Going to be investigating other options, anyways.
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MattSullivan
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Re: New Flickr

Post by MattSullivan »

i just dont understand why theyre changing it. its terrible. anyone else notice how you are no longer contacts with people? instead you have followers and are following people
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