Lake Erie Watersnakes

Dedicated exclusively to field herping.

Moderator: Scott Waters

Post Reply
User avatar
MichaelCravens
Posts: 223
Joined: July 3rd, 2010, 9:05 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Lake Erie Watersnakes

Post by MichaelCravens »

Spending my summer in Michigan put me in close proximity to a very interesting subspecies of the northern watersnake, the Lake Erie watersnake Nerodia sipedon insularum. I remember looking at these as a child in my Peterson field guide, along with their accompanying tiny range, and thinking that I’d never get the chance to see them.

Finding myself this close, and having a healthy fascination with island biogeography, meant that I had to make the trip. I picked Kelly Island because not only was there a healthy population of watersnakes, but there was also a unisexual polyploid salamander known as the Kelly Island salamander, once described as Ambystoma nothagenes.

Image

The ferry to Kelly Island with a view of the island on the horizon

Image

Quinn and my transportation on the island

Image

I ended up finding three of these Kelly Island salamanders, all shaped different. This one was shaped similar to a smallmouth salamander but the others lent more towards a tiger salamander.

Image

Habitat like this was loaded with insularum.

Image

Image

Image

These three juveniles represent the range of patterns seen in these snakes.

Image

A nice looking adult with just a little pattern along the back

Image

With a little habitat

Image

Another adult

Image

I really liked the look of this one.

Recently removed from the Federal List of Endangered and Threatened Wildlife, the Lake Erie watersnake population rose from an estimated 1500-2000 individuals in 1999 to 11,980 in 2009. This comeback was achieved through habitat restoration and preservation, and public education.

Thanks for looking,

Michael Cravens
User avatar
MHollanders
Posts: 583
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 2:32 pm
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Lake Erie Watersnakes

Post by MHollanders »

Wow. Those are some gorgeous Nerodia.
mikemike
Posts: 1207
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 1:37 pm
Location: Ft. Smith, Arkansas
Contact:

Re: Lake Erie Watersnakes

Post by mikemike »

That last one's a screamer... for a nerodia... I knew their population used to be low, but not that low. That's awesome how much they have come back.
User avatar
Bill Love
Posts: 169
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 7:33 pm
Location: Apache Junction (near Phoenix), Arizona

Re: Lake Erie Watersnakes

Post by Bill Love »

Nice shots showing a range of variation! Were they calmer (= easier to approach / capture) than typical wild Nerodia, from maybe(?) the lack of having to dodge large mammalian predators out on that island?
User avatar
MichaelCravens
Posts: 223
Joined: July 3rd, 2010, 9:05 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Lake Erie Watersnakes

Post by MichaelCravens »

Thanks guys, glad you enjoyed it

Bill, they were every bit as nasty as the sipedon on the mainland. Don't forget, there is one large mammalian preditor on the island that almost did them all in.
Paul White
Posts: 2288
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 9:52 pm
Location: Amarillo, Texas

Re: Lake Erie Watersnakes

Post by Paul White »

unisexual polyploid salamander known as the Kelly Island salamander, once described as Ambystoma nothagenes.
That is awesome! How many unisexual salamanders are there? this is the only one I've heard of but I've never really looked either you know?
User avatar
MichaelCravens
Posts: 223
Joined: July 3rd, 2010, 9:05 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Lake Erie Watersnakes

Post by MichaelCravens »

Hi Paul, I know there are a few complexes in the upper Midwest. They are a mystery to me; genetics isn't my strongest area of biology. Maybe someone else can chime in and explain the natural histories of these things.

Michael
Paul White
Posts: 2288
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 9:52 pm
Location: Amarillo, Texas

Re: Lake Erie Watersnakes

Post by Paul White »

I'd heard of polyploidy but not the unisexuality. Alternative forms of reproduction in vertebrates is just fascinating to me.
ugh

Re: Lake Erie Watersnakes

Post by ugh »

MichaelCravens wrote:Recently removed from the Federal List of Endangered and Threatened Wildlife, the Lake Erie watersnake population rose from an estimated 1500-2000 individuals in 1999 to 11,980 in 2009. This comeback was achieved through habitat restoration and preservation, and public education.

Thanks for looking,

Michael Cravens
If those numbers are accurate(I'm not doubting your report) that's an awesome and encouraging example of what is POSSIBLE with a little tweak in land management as a result of a well-informed and committed individuals....Not really talking about the de-listing but rather,the population's numbers. I admit I knew nothing about/don't recall hearing of this particular project on Lake Erie but I'd like to know more of the islands history and 'whole story'.
User avatar
MichaelCravens
Posts: 223
Joined: July 3rd, 2010, 9:05 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Lake Erie Watersnakes

Post by MichaelCravens »

Ugh,

I agree, its an interesting case. I should have cited my sources, but a quick google search will bring up a lot of information.

Michael
User avatar
cayrip
Posts: 275
Joined: October 29th, 2010, 7:06 am
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Lake Erie Watersnakes

Post by cayrip »

I like this post.
User avatar
ThatFrogGuy
Posts: 744
Joined: April 15th, 2011, 1:29 pm
Location: Southern Indiana
Contact:

Re: Lake Erie Watersnakes

Post by ThatFrogGuy »

Awesome! Love those snakes.
Paul White wrote:
unisexual polyploid salamander known as the Kelly Island salamander, once described as Ambystoma nothagenes.
That is awesome! How many unisexual salamanders are there? this is the only one I've heard of but I've never really looked either you know?
In Indiana there are two that I know of, one having the phenotype of Ambystoma laterale and the other of jeffersonianum. I have book that talks about their genotypes and stuff, later today I'll see what else there is.
User avatar
tspuckler
Posts: 355
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:40 pm

Re: Lake Erie Watersnakes

Post by tspuckler »

Those are way more faded than the examples I've found on Put-in-Bay, which are usually banded. This was the most patternless one I came across:

Image

Sweet post!

Tim
User avatar
Bryan Hamilton
Posts: 1234
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 9:49 pm

Re: Lake Erie Watersnakes

Post by Bryan Hamilton »

Awesome post! I worked on South Bass Island one summer and most of the insularum were very strongly banded.

I love the success story and agree its a great example of snake conservation. The population increases can be attributed to the introduction of a non-native fish, in conjunction with some tweaks to shoreline habitat management and less people killing the snakes.

The all female salamanders have polyploid chromosome counts and are thought to have originated from hybridization events. One of the strange things about the polyploid salamander is that they still require sperm to activate their eggs.
User avatar
DiogoFF
Posts: 5
Joined: October 28th, 2011, 6:35 am

Re: Lake Erie Watersnakes

Post by DiogoFF »

Hi,

Im a new member and this topic gave me an idea for a topic.
Please cilck the link below for some pics of portuguese water snakes:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8802
corey.raimond
Posts: 240
Joined: July 20th, 2010, 9:43 pm

Re: Lake Erie Watersnakes

Post by corey.raimond »

Did you take pics of the ones that look like tiger salamanders?

-Corey
User avatar
azatrox
Posts: 793
Joined: June 9th, 2010, 6:51 am
Location: Arizona

Re: Lake Erie Watersnakes

Post by azatrox »

As a big fan of Nerodia, this post is a treat.

Well done.

-Kris
User avatar
Andy Avram
Posts: 897
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 10:37 am
Location: NE Ohio

Re: Lake Erie Watersnakes

Post by Andy Avram »

Michael,

Wish I would have known you were in Ohio. The Lake Erie Islands are great fun and I haven't been on Kelley's in a few years now, but I have been on some of the others recently. Lots of water snakes out there. Good to see you found some of the hybrids. They are strange looking out there. All the same colors/patterns but different body shapes.

To the others asking about the hybrids. They form a swarm that includes the genetic material of Jefferson, Blue-spotted, Small-mouthed, Streamside and Tigers. They can carry the genetics from 2 to 4 (maybe 5) species at once. All they need is sperm from any one of the parent species (so the genetic material may be present where one or more of the parent species doesn't even exist) to stimulate egg development. From what I understand they have recently discovered these hybrids all stem back to the Streamside Salamander. Only a few (infertile?) males have ever been found, otherwise they are all females. A crazy situation that happens.

For Corey, here are some pictures I took on the island of the hybrids 4 or 5 years ago. We saw some that were shaped like Jefferson, Smallmouth, Tiger, Mole (not sure where that look came from) and mixtures of those listed. All were grayish with blueish markings.

Here is a tiger shaped one.
Image

Here is a few different ones that mostly resembled Small-mouthed, mixtures and the Tiger one in the upper left corner.
Image

Andy
User avatar
MichaelCravens
Posts: 223
Joined: July 3rd, 2010, 9:05 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Lake Erie Watersnakes

Post by MichaelCravens »

cayrip, Thank you!

ThatFrogGuy, Thanks for the information.

Tim, Thanks for posting the photo, that's a beautiful snake. I mostly took photos of the cleaner animals, but I'd say 20% of what I saw were strongly banded.

Bryan, I should have mentioned the gobies, thank you.

DiogoFF, I'm happy my post inspired you, cool photos of a very neat snake!

Cory, I did not, but it looks like Andy's covered that.

Kris, Thank you!

Andy, I thought of trying to get a hold of you after I had already left on that trip, but I didn't know where exactly you were located and didn't have any contact info for you. Thanks a ton for the contribution to this post. I was researching these salamanders before leaving and could only find two photos with considerable searching.
User avatar
Russ_Jones
Posts: 100
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 11:00 am

Re: Lake Erie Watersnakes

Post by Russ_Jones »

Hey, great post and pics mike. It's been a few years since Iv been to pelee island, you brought back some nice memories.

I wonder how much of the snakes rebound is owed to the establishment of round goby in lake erie.

Russ
User avatar
BillMcGighan
Posts: 2362
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 9:23 am
Location: Unicoi, TN

Re: Lake Erie Watersnakes

Post by BillMcGighan »

Good stuff from an interesting area, Michael.
Just for reference, here are some Water Snakes from a river just 2 miles from Lake Erie.
Yor LE animals are much different.
Thanks...


Image


Image



PS seems like just yesterday, Quinn was a pup!!
User avatar
peterknuteberg
Posts: 191
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 5:51 am
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Re: Lake Erie Watersnakes

Post by peterknuteberg »

Michael this was a fun post. I like the bike and Quinn shots too.
User avatar
MichaelCravens
Posts: 223
Joined: July 3rd, 2010, 9:05 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Lake Erie Watersnakes

Post by MichaelCravens »

Hey Russ, I should have mentioned the gobies, It seem clear that they contributed a great deal. That owl you posted on FB was outstanding, by the way.

Bill, thanks for posting the pics, its interesting to see the contrast. And, yes, time goes by too quickly with a good dog.

Peter, thanks, I'll bet Quinn and I have put a thousand miles on that rig.

Michael
Post Reply