Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

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Hornemadness
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Hornemadness »

Animals adapt to things all the time. Ever see a bird when its cold? Its all fluffed out, they aren't always like that. mice that are raised in cold temps grow thicker fur to keep warm. It seems logical to me that animals in a captive setting were they are being bred extensively would adapt to the diet they are being fed. Just as they would lose some adaptations to deal with things they would encounter in the wild ( like not being able to deal with ingested sand). This isn't something radical or unknown, in fact it is something that can be seen in any number of mammals including rats and a very well known case involving silver foxes in Russia ( http://sibfox.com/history/ ). The case with the foxes didn't take hundreds of years, or millions of generations. i definitely think this could happen with leopard geckos.
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Don Becker
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Don Becker »

Kelly Mc wrote:uh, right psyon. They "adapted" to prey organisms in niche that pre-empted their own evolutionary appearance :lol:
Frog numbers evolved to overcome high mortality rates due to lack of food for the young, or predation by any possible predators. The fact that they are abundant made them a good food source for some animals, and if those animals had an advantage to catching them, or digesting them, it is a trait that would be passed on to their offspring, which would in turn hopefully make their offspring have easier access too food. So yes, I think they adapted to their prey organisms.
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Joseph S.
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Joseph S. »

John Vanek wrote:
Joseph S. wrote: OTOH, people who try to feed these animals on chicken, vegetables, fruits etc. w/o supplementing enough frequently run into problems with MBD. This is due to chicken and most other straight up meats having a bad Ca:P ratio. So for bluetongues a simple diet that for sure meets their needs seems better than a more complicated one that might not.
I DARE you to post that opinion on bluetongueskinks.net :lol:


I have a tanimbar, and he is offered mostly grain free cat food, supplemented with rodents, insects, and vegetables. Omnivores are easy to feed :thumb:
Done, I post on there and this is the advice that is supported by most people. Their seems to have been a change in forum mentality on diet over the past few years-due to a few prominent members experiencing MBD on what seemed like excellent diets. In the past dogfood was frowned upon until problems were seen with the above posted diet. Again, not saying that it is necessary to feed dogfood, but its better Ca:P ratio as well as added nutrients makes it a better source of protein. So it is important that dietary choices be made based on nutritional data and the health of animals kept long term on that diet, not some preconceived notion that something is bad and something else is good.

Hornemadness: Just curious, but does she supplement at all? If not or if so, what brand does she use? Ca: P ratios vary somewhat amongst dogfood brands but they seem to be in general a bit lower than what is arbitrarily advised. (the 1.5-3 to 1 ratio) While in theory their is a danger of oversupplementation at least one breeder I know is pretty liberal with the calcium(almost like a powdered donut) I choose to supplement every other meal with a bit of calcium(with D3, although again most dog foods provide D3.). Also, it seems Tiliqua need a dietary source of D3 since this same breeder did some trial runs on babies and those provided with UV light but no dietary D3 on the occasion developed MBD and were less fertile.

Kelly: Boiled eggs(providing they are fed without the shell) are quite high in phosphorus. They also seem to cause runny stools. Also a box turtle that is being fed on string cheese for 10 years and looks like crap is a lot different than blue tongues being fed their entire lives on only dog food and doing great, producing healthy young, and approaching their maximum lifespan. Keep in mind bluetongue lizards are also much shorter lived than box turtles(mid 20's appears to be nearing the maximum, and fertility drops off earlier than that). Also, the lady likely acquired the box turtle as an adult-which means it may have stored nutrients it could draw on for a period before problems became apparent. The same diet fed to a hatchling would likely result in issues sooner.
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Paul White »

what dog food do you use? Wet, dry? Are some brands better than others? If I can do a skink without going through tons and tons of bugs I'm probably going to at some point.
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Joseph S.
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Joseph S. »

Paul: I've used several different brands. Just about any would work...but ideally look for something that has a good Ca:P ratio and a decent protein to fat ratio. Some dogfoods have veggies in them so that is a nice plus. Many of the big breeders actually prefer canned Pedigree(the chicken or the beef flavors without the gravy), meat byproducts included(probably not a bad thing for skinks). Most people use wet food but a few people including myself have used dry food on the occasion(you let them soak in a bit of water for 10 minutes or so before feeding so they are a bit softer). I got a lot of flak a while ago on .net from a member or two but I've done lots of research on dry vs wet foods and their different nutritional makeups and can't find a compelling reason not to use it. Some people use the less calorically dense senior varieties as well. While bluetongues will happily eat bugs such as mealworms, superworms, and dubia-they do just fine without them. I actually find mine prefers dog food over dubia-seems the prickly legs are offputting if he's only somewhat hungry.
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Hornemadness »

she feeds hard boiled eggs to her skinks twice a moth (she puts them in a food processor shell and all). The dog food she uses is the pedigree. Usually she uses the chicken, but she sometimes uses the beef flavor. The pedigree is the puree w/out the gravy. I feed mine the same. My pink tongues get pedigree dog food as well with some calcium mixed in. I actually have a 40 year old box turtle that was captured as a juvenile and fed dog food ever since. I still feed him dog food. Hes doing fine and doesn't have any problems and doesn't have any problems i know of (aside from being the horniest box turtle in the world). On the subject of dry vs wet food, i concur. There really isn't much of a difference, except that animals prefer the wet stuff. I feed dry dog food in with his wet food to my box turtle as i find it keeps his beak nice and worn down. One thing i have discovered is that if you put dog food in a spice mill you can powder it and it stores for WAY longer than the wet stuff in the fridge once its open. you just add water and whatever supplements you like. Powdered dog food is also relished by my gf's superworm colony.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Kelly Mc »

Not that it matters but the last time I fed hardboiled egg to my blue tongue was in December. With the shell. I always leave some shell mostly because Im always in a hurry. But when these little girls come with treats for my tegu, I always save a chunk for the blue tongue.

Psyon - I agree with you . But I also may view sympatry and predatory-prey relationships differently. I also think a distinction should be made (and noted as evidencial) between behavioral adaptation to food opportunities, and lower vert physiology offering no Novel Fatty Acids to other lower verts. We cant go on this way its like talking to each other from different rooms in a building. We disagree too fundamentally. For instance you hold in skepticism the diagnosis of your monitor lizards, all being affected the same in such time, but to me from what you have posted (briefly to be fair) it is unremarkable.

I offer what I have to share , and admit frustration not in being disagreed with , but in the reluctance to consider closer examination of what fats actually are , especially in mammal and lower vert bodies, and how dietary impact is more then meets the eye. It may be of interest to some to investigate what reptiles and amphibians are actually designed to eat , some may find appealing the caliber of finessing the diet of their herps to this end, rather then just doing what is popular or convenient. I think it would be unfortunate to encourage some captive bred "plasticity" and have that be the defining mode , when we still have so much to learn about them as they are.
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Don Becker
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Don Becker »

Kelly Mc wrote:For instance you hold in skepticism the diagnosis of your monitor lizards, all being affected the same in such time, but to me from what you have posted (briefly to be fair) it is unremarkable.
So you honestly believe that when three animals, one of which was kept in different conditions than the other two, are introduced to each other, and suddenly fall ill, and die in a very short time frame, that fatty liver disease is to blame? You don't think any other issue is possible?
how dietary impact is more then meets the eye
What's funny, is that's sort of what I have been saying. Animal is cut open for necropsy, fatty liver deposits are seen, diagnosis goes by what ever "meets the eye" first, and people do not look beyond that.
It may be of interest to some to investigate what reptiles and amphibians are actually designed to eat
I don't look at it as designed, I look at it as adapted. When something is designed, then you can set very specific parameters that are needed, but animals adapted to their prey items over time, and it makes their digestive systems more general tools, capable of eating things outside of their normal diet.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Kelly Mc »

Good luck!
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Joseph S.
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Joseph S. »

Kelly: You really think three monitors would keel over at the same time due to being fed vertebrates? My bet is that they were exposed to some toxin that put lots of strain on the liver which resulted in the appearance of those symptoms.
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Joseph S. »

Here is testimony to the success of a dogfood based diet with blue tongue skinks...(18 years of babies from 1 female)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZKe8PAG3d8
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Kelly Mc »

I prefer feeding whole food animals that are proximal in composition to the animals wild diet. I didnt get my training from youtube, or internet forums and I think its great that some people get some martha stewart kick mixin up dogfood and watching herps eat it , if thats what you want to do. An animal can breed just fine with crap for a liver. Not saying that particular blue tongue has one - just stating a fact.

More and more as animal dietary science has developed people arent even feeding processed pet foods to their dogs and cats , let alone herps. And i have done it on occasion - I use a smudge of dog or cat food in a plastic tube to trap rogue uneaten crickets that have grown dangerously large in enclosures housing tender mantellas or small newts. Didnt want the rest of it to waste. So Ill feed it to a guy.

As for psyons monitors I dont "bet" on anything, posted here . Just not terribly surprised they died. Monitors tend not to linger like some smaller lizards. They crash suddenly.

As for "Adapting" What did herps that prey on inverts and lower verts eat - Before they 'Adapted' to eating inverts and lower verts??
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Kelly Mc »

Joseph S. wrote:Kelly: You really think three monitors would keel over at the same time due to being fed vertebrates? My bet is that they were exposed to some toxin that put lots of strain on the liver which resulted in the appearance of those symptoms.
Its not the "fat" but how it impairs function and most crucially at a stage where tissue becomes fibrous. Blood cant nourish the organ and areas start to necrose. When the liver is strained bile function is altered proteins unmetabolized waste becomes toxic. So do the fat soluble vitamins like A and D. Although not explored in this thread - mineralization can also be an effect of dietary caused renal problems in combination with dehydration. Some animals like chameleons will suffer from gout type illnesses because of long term less then optimum water presentation . I had a cab driver drop (dump) off an ackie with a note describing its diet by the owner which said it ate canned salmon and cat food and an occasional pinky. Its gout so severe it could only paddle itself to locomote, weakly. I am sure this animal had other deficits in husbandry as well.



The thing I notice with this thread is a projection of cause Singularity - which I as a keeper do not entertain.
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Don Becker
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Don Becker »

Kelly Mc wrote:As for psyons monitors I dont "bet" on anything, posted here . Just not terribly surprised they died. Monitors tend not to linger like some smaller lizards. They crash suddenly.
Sure, they crash quickly, but it wasn't that one became ill, and then crashed, and then the next became ill, and then crashed. All three became ill at the same time, and all three crashed at the same time. What's sad, is that you said you aren't surprised they died, and you are ok with the diagnosis of fatty liver disease, and I have never even said what their diet was.
As for "Adapting" What did herps that prey on inverts and lower verts eat - Before they 'Adapted' to eating inverts and lower verts??
Who knows, I don't have a time machine to go back and get gut samples. There are snail eating snakes that have asymetric jaws, which helps them extract snails from their shells. What did these snakes prey on before their specialized jaws formed? If you believe in intelligent design, then fine, they were designed to eat snails, and that is all they have ever eaten. If you don't believe in intelligent design, then you have to believe that the animals have eaten something else in the past, because at some point in the past neither the predator or the prey item existed.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Kelly Mc »

If you are really sincere about this whole discussion, psyon instead of typing it give me your number and we can talk more for real. Or I could give you mine. Which ever you prefer.
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Don Becker
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Don Becker »

Sorry, I respond to this conversation between getting work done. Besides, others are involved too, and it would probably be better at this point to address things here.
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Joseph S.
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Joseph S. »

Training from youtube? See look that guy is a real breeder using his real name and he's got animals going for decades-him and a breeder I've personally communicated with have certainly cared for and produced more blueys than you and I have seen put together. You can read up on how he and other bluetongue people feed their animals and then look at the success. Learning from forums etc. is no problem as long as you have the ability to check for yourself the veracity of the information and decide for yourself what it means.

I will look into your second post a bit later to see its veracity. Unless their is information out there on say the fatty acid profiles of mammals versus lower vertebrates out there...

The problem of blaming a problem on one single thing certainly exists...however, that is exactly what you are arguing is that a diet of pinkies should cause health issues for insectivorous reptiles-nevermind other aspects of their husbandry.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Kelly Mc »

Joseph Im pretty aware of other aspects of husbandry. I have made my sole livelyhood as a reptile keeper, for 30 years with some of those years also spent as a zookeeper and veterinary tecnician in exotics practice. As for how many tiliqua I have kept and raised in flourishing health from days of Wild Caught to captive bred babies, to old reliquished rescues and rehab recovery specimens - Notherns easterns jiya . Enough for over 3 decades of professionally validated care to know they dont have to eat dogfood to be healthy. I have had herpetologists entrust me with rare personal specimens , and other biologists come only to me to acquire specimens. The only reason I even go on forums is because I was expecting more. Because I am a latecomer to the format it seemed interesting and fun . But friends I have - many whom could be considered "famous" in the field tell me it is no place to find advanced discussion - only little twits who half understand concepts they are cleverly contriving debates about.

An old biker with a brilliant mind once told me :

The only thing you can be an expert at , at 25 years old is wiping your own ass.
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Hornemadness »

If your expert friends have told you places like these are intellectual cesspools, then why are you here? Are you slumming it?
As for feeding blue tongues dog food, you are right, they don't "need" it to live. I'm sure there are plenty of blue tongues that are fed a much more "natural" diet and are just fine. I actually know many people that prefer to make their own dogs food themselves and the dogs are fine. i also know people that feed their pet cats whole prekilled mice for the same reasons.
I know that your not going to like this but, the reason my gf and i feed our respective skinks dog food is because its easy and its not harmful to them. i have personally seen blue tongues that were 30 years old that were fed dog food their entire lives. The animals were vivacious for their age and looked really healthy. Though they didn't have blood tests, dont you think they would have shown signs by age 30 if something was wrong? I know that myself and others are sufficiently convinced that its healthy for blue tongues to eat dog food. You are not convinced, and im ok with that. im sure that a blue tongue fed a balanced "natural" diet will live just as long. However it must be noted that it is harder to balance a diet for an animal that is growing. If you screw it up the animal is the one that will ultimately suffer, but that could be said for either side of this argument. I said it before and ill say it again, we agree to disagree. People looking for info online can make up their own minds.
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KichiMark
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by KichiMark »

Kelly Mc wrote:. But friends I have - many whom could be considered "famous" in the field tell me it is no place to find advanced discussion - only little twits who half understand concepts they are cleverly contriving debates about.
Hmmm I am fairly new to the herp forums but an OG in the coral, koi and gun forums. I can tell you that for the most up to date information and discussions are found in the forums. As others have mentioned, a reader must decide for themselves what to take from it all. With my observations on this site I have seen people with a great amount of experience and a willingness to share their success. To insult them by calling them a twit is downright offensive and if you believe in such a response then why be on any forum since as you say, they do not meet your standards? In other places it is considered trolling.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Kelly Mc »

Im not the offensive player. I dont even have a team.

But I know what its about and how this thread would have been different if Another member would have broached the same subject as I did . I may be an outcast but I see the tribe. Maybe they cant see themselves.
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Don Becker
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Don Becker »

What exactly is the subject you are raising then?
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Kelly Mc »

If you want to talk to me show me your balls.

I Know you know where you can get my phone number.
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Don Becker
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Don Becker »

Why are you intent on talking directly to me, rather than discussing this among the other people who are also commenting on the subject. I am not the only one who has brought up my side of the discussion.

Right now I am not only working on NAHERP.com, I am also working on a Michigan Herp Atlas project, a North Dakota Herp Atlas, and the mobile app for NAHERP.com. That is aside from the actual work I have to do for my paying customers as well. Like I said before, I respond to this discussion between doing other things. Being tied up on the phone wastes time. Even my paying customers talk to me via instant message, because then I can get things done while talking with them.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Kelly Mc »

Im not intent . But the option is yours. I will pm my number to you, right now.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Kelly Mc »

John Vanek wrote:
Kelly Mc wrote: An old biker with a brilliant mind once told me :

The only thing you can be an expert at , at 25 years old is wiping your own ass.
Brilliant perhaps, but woefully naive. I find this statement horribly offensive, and I'm not one to be offended easily.
Yes , it is. I apologize to you - and Some others . Including the exceptions , like Natalie, for instance.
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Don Becker
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Don Becker »

Kelly Mc wrote:Im not intent . But the option is yours. I will pm my number to you, right now.
Again, I am not the only one opposing your view point, so why are you singling me out to want a phone call?
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KingCam
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by KingCam »

lmao, this is the most ridiculous conversation I've ever read.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Kelly Mc »

psyon wrote:
Kelly Mc wrote:Im not intent . But the option is yours. I will pm my number to you, right now.
Again, I am not the only one opposing your view point, so why are you singling me out to want a phone call?

I dont Want Anything - but yeah Im singling you out . I sent you my number so from now on if you want to troll me - do it in Real Time.
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Don Becker
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

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I am not sure how you think I am trolling you. If anything you are trolling me. At least I answer your questions directly rather than giving vague replies.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Kelly Mc »

My friend the biker had salty mouth. I could handle it so everyone should recover just fine.

Not only could he build anything, everything, but he was the most skillful handfeeder and bird healer I have ever seen . Self educated Savage.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Kelly Mc »

psyon wrote:I am not sure how you think I am trolling you. If anything you are trolling me. At least I answer your questions directly rather than giving vague replies.
My phone aint ringin ?
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Kent VanSooy »

Everyone knows hand fat is not good for birds.
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Don Becker
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Don Becker »

Kelly Mc wrote:
psyon wrote:I am not sure how you think I am trolling you. If anything you are trolling me. At least I answer your questions directly rather than giving vague replies.
My phone aint ringin ?
And my work isn't getting done by itself. What's your point?
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Joseph S.
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Joseph S. »

Kelly: Likewise an old fart can sit around for decades and not absorb any knowledge via simple osmosis. Time is definetly a prerequisite for knowledge but it alone means very little. You can keep a bunch of a species of animal and learn little to nothing about them. While their is an old saying in fishkeeping that your experience with a species is determined by how many of them you have killed-it is only partly true-you have to be able to determine likely causatives of death. Sometimes it is relatively simple-othertimes more complicated. It likely took only a few people killing indigo snakes to figure out that in captivity they need quite low ambient temperatures, for example.

I don't understand also why you insist on talking to one particular member on the phone when we can all benefit on this open forum.

Also, on dogfood vs a natural diet. I'm not saying that Tiliqua can't be successfully maintained on a natural diet(have yet to hear from anyone doing it on a large scale basis) but I will argue that as of yet dog food appears to do just as well as any other diet.

Just got out of a genetics test and am headed to another bio class so I'll delve a bit further later.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Kelly Mc »

Real life is still here.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Kelly Mc »

And you would think a Breeder would make sure his cherished baby making female would at least have clean water. Especially when the brood is imminent and directly after the neonates. Just in case she would like some? There is much fluid loss. But first Get The Camera!!! Ah but reptiles are a tragically sturdy bunch. To sturdy for to be offered a little class in human behavior and courtesy, it appears. :(

Its the little details that are quite telling. As well as the excuses.
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Don Becker
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Don Becker »

If this guy posted videos constantly, and they always had messy water, I would see your point. I can change water dishes though, and an hour later they have bedding in them. I never really viewed it as a big deal, because last I checked, animals didn't have filtered water to drink in the wild. I imagine there is mud, grass, sticks, and who knows what else in the water they drink in the wild.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Kelly Mc »

Peace is better . I see others who share valid observations . I think mine are valid too. I felt ganged up on
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Don Becker
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Don Becker »

I could say the same thing about you for not wanting to air your arguments to the public. Don't like peer review?
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Kelly Mc
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Post by Kelly Mc »

Tape it.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Kelly Mc »

You know , it doesnt really matter what anyone thinks of me - its not my world - I think its a great forum , but Im not a part of the club .

But, you - I mean this is like Your Life . . .
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Kelly Mc
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Post by Kelly Mc »

You can only communicate if you hide and deliberate?

You said that english is my second language, remember? Maybe you will understand me better if we talk in reality.
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Don Becker
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Don Becker »

Kelly Mc wrote:But, you - I mean this is like Your Life . . .
Well... yeah, it is. I work on web sites all day long. Believe it or not, part of my job requires me to just simply play around on the internet so that I know what the current trends are. In the warmer months, I break it up by going outside and hiking around to find stuff. in the colder months having discussions on forums is a great way for me to break up the monotony of doing the same thing over and over and over and over again.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Kelly Mc »

Going around hiking and finding stuff.

My edge just vanished.

It sounds like you have a cool balance of life. I wish I could have just a small dash of those skills. To make cool presentations I dont know , like I think the computer can be magical like throwing a cloth over an idea and making it visible.
Paul White
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Paul White »

Have you been drinking?
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Kelly Mc »

No Paul . I dont drink. I just smoke cigarettes. For thrills I only get to watch shock movies . Like the one I just watched with my gf . The Human Centipede 2. It was even more horrific than the first.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Kelly Mc »

Many people who have viewed this thread are familiar with the subject matter - of heavy mammal sterols inducing dietary excess organ disorders in various species of herps. Basically turning the blood of the hepatic system like wax , and progressing on from there. Many know. The reluctance to post it here, well. It doesnt matter.

I thought it would be a responsible, worthwhile item to include, as contrary to what has been said , its often unrecognized for many years, similiar to how dietary illnesses work chronically in other animals, and humans. Most of the time it becomes acute at what is Percieved to be late in life - a result of bioaccumulative opportunity, so keepers chalk it up to "old age" or some other mostly unpursued cause. But in reality a reptile or amphibian can live in an uncompromised status of health and maintain it at a much more mature age than (general) mammals and birds, perhaps because of indeterminant
growth/longevity potential of poikilotherm vertebrates.

It has been observed that captive ecto primary herps fed on heavy mammal sterols in methods previously talked about, end up not being able to hold flesh value , eventually. No matter how much dogfood or pinkies they consume. But it isnt because they are "old". Flesh value is at the neck, the back of the skull, caudal, pelvic bone often the belly is big and the tail base is lean . In many species it should be the other way around .
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Kent VanSooy
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Kent VanSooy »

I'm not familiar with this knowledge, so please then explain in biochemical terms the difference between mammalian and invertebrate sterols and the specific differential effect on hepatic function and longevity.
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Don Becker
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Re: Are pinkies really fatty? Nutritional analysis of...

Post by Don Becker »

Kelly, that's all well and good, but shouldn't you have at least asked what the diet was of my brothers three monitors was before you jump to conclusions that a mammalian diet was to blame?
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