Hi Everyone,
One of my banded geckos has been struggling for the past couple months and I thought I would ask for help identifying the problem.
I have a pair of them together in a small tank with sand as the substrate, a piece of bark as a hide, a fake cactus and a small piece of dead cholla. The tank is maintained at room temperature and there is no supplemental heating or lighting. I feed them small mealworms plus an occasional spider, cricket, or earwig.
The female was collected in April 2009, while the male was collected in April 2010. Both had been doing just fine for a long time. However, in September the male stopped eating and began walking around in the daytime with his eyes shut and head held high. Recently I noticed discoloration around the base of his tail. Yesterday I noticed that the base of the tail was swollen and black on one side. In addition I saw that he has some internal blackening in his abdomen. Here are some pictures from yesterday...
It appears to me that he perhaps has an intestinal blockage and/or infection.
What do you think??
Any ideas on what I could do to get him back to a healthy state?
Thanks for your help!
Jeff
problem with my Desert Banded Gecko - Coleonyx variegatus
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- SurfinHerp
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Re: problem with my Desert Banded Gecko - Coleonyx variegatu
I don't imagine an intestinal blockage would present like that. My best guess would be something along the lines of infection or cancer. The area looks infected, dead, or at least severely ischemic. I would hazard a guess that whatever the cause it will require a vet.....ASAP....
Corrected due to complete inexcusable brain fart.....
Corrected due to complete inexcusable brain fart.....
Re: problem with my Desert Banded Gecko - Coleonyx variegatu
the testes are located in the abdomen , so its the hemipenes that are located there . i can only share as a keeper BTW
i have known varanids that have had the tendency to evert a hemipene or even both to a degree , while defecating ( and sometimes just wud do so occasionally ) and in contraction back can draw sub particles into the hemipene pocket which can lead to infection . it has also happened with snakes and other lizards during copulation . i worked on c.maculatus that had such an infection - producing massive amounts of cheesy pus that needed much flushing and packing to resolve
With smaller reptiles and amphibians though , what is more common is a relax of cloacal musculature due to ionic imbalances and generalized lack of fitness - with deficiency of calcium and uvb to aid in its conversion as cause . Debri adheres and finds its way inside the hemipenel pocket where it can fester and even necrose .
An imbalance of this kind - that causes a full , semi or limited duration prolapse , could also lead a gecko to ingest sand , ie craving mineral components . which *may* be what is implied in what looks like some kind of gastric inflamation
i am only sharing what i have seen and worked with .
i hope you get him veterinary diagnostics and help .
i have known varanids that have had the tendency to evert a hemipene or even both to a degree , while defecating ( and sometimes just wud do so occasionally ) and in contraction back can draw sub particles into the hemipene pocket which can lead to infection . it has also happened with snakes and other lizards during copulation . i worked on c.maculatus that had such an infection - producing massive amounts of cheesy pus that needed much flushing and packing to resolve
With smaller reptiles and amphibians though , what is more common is a relax of cloacal musculature due to ionic imbalances and generalized lack of fitness - with deficiency of calcium and uvb to aid in its conversion as cause . Debri adheres and finds its way inside the hemipenel pocket where it can fester and even necrose .
An imbalance of this kind - that causes a full , semi or limited duration prolapse , could also lead a gecko to ingest sand , ie craving mineral components . which *may* be what is implied in what looks like some kind of gastric inflamation
i am only sharing what i have seen and worked with .
i hope you get him veterinary diagnostics and help .
Re: problem with my Desert Banded Gecko - Coleonyx variegatu
I really don't know about those symptoms, the previous comments are interesting but I have never seen such... Diet, I think it could be enhanced. Are you providing enough Calcium in the form of fine powder on the insects and/or gut loading the prey? Meal worms, especially the freshly shed ones are OK, but I would offer a lot more insects. I have a black light that attracts moths, and I use these as a major food, with crickets and meal worms and spiders and various larvae/maggots also. Calcium is real important, and a host of problems will present if it is not adequate. I dust crickets with it, Rep-Cal or other, and I also provide it in a dish. I gut load crickets with calcium/viatamin rich food My geckos readily breed, I would give you one if you so desire, shoot me a pm. good luck, this sort of thing is disheartening but it is good you posted it as we all have a chance to learn and gain experience. The symptoms may have nothing to do with diet, but it is worth considering since it took awhile for those symptoms to manifest. Sometimes reptiles will ingest gravel and sand and have GI problems as a result... Vic Imperial Valley, Ca.
Re: problem with my Desert Banded Gecko - Coleonyx variegatu
i thought about this guy today and hope he gets some help
the most commonly defined prolapse is one where extruded tissues are exposed and vulnerable to drying - in the pic the vent looks tight but there can be a degreed version - slight - where after defecating the cloacal lining retracts in a faulty abnormally slow way back into position , just out enough to contact irritating matter that ends up migrating to the hemipene pocket
if he was mine i wud set him in a little puddle container of tepid water with a splash of unflvrd pedialyte and drop some over his mouth as well , as attempt to keep him alive till i cud get him treated . the sooner the better . he is small and it doesnt look good
since he didnt ask for his destiny perhaps an earnest try which may mean spending some $ on a vet would be a good thing . no matter how it turns out you would have done right by him
the most commonly defined prolapse is one where extruded tissues are exposed and vulnerable to drying - in the pic the vent looks tight but there can be a degreed version - slight - where after defecating the cloacal lining retracts in a faulty abnormally slow way back into position , just out enough to contact irritating matter that ends up migrating to the hemipene pocket
if he was mine i wud set him in a little puddle container of tepid water with a splash of unflvrd pedialyte and drop some over his mouth as well , as attempt to keep him alive till i cud get him treated . the sooner the better . he is small and it doesnt look good
since he didnt ask for his destiny perhaps an earnest try which may mean spending some $ on a vet would be a good thing . no matter how it turns out you would have done right by him
- SurfinHerp
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Re: problem with my Desert Banded Gecko - Coleonyx variegatu
Thanks for the advice guys and gals! I'm trying to find a vet I can bring him to today.
I place the mealworms in a small dish with some oatmeal and spray them with Zilla brand "Food Spray Vitamin Supplement with Beta Carotene", which contains 60 ppm Calcium. I leave the dish in the tank for about 5-7 days before I refresh the food supply. It's possible that this gecko doesn't eat the mealworms before the vitamins in the spray completely dry out and begin to break down, meaning he's not getting adequate nutrition. I have some Reptocal powder as well, but prefer the spray over the powder.
I think I'll try to catch some moths this evening by my porch light and dust them with Reptocal.
I'll let you know how he's doing later this week...
Regards,
Jeff
I place the mealworms in a small dish with some oatmeal and spray them with Zilla brand "Food Spray Vitamin Supplement with Beta Carotene", which contains 60 ppm Calcium. I leave the dish in the tank for about 5-7 days before I refresh the food supply. It's possible that this gecko doesn't eat the mealworms before the vitamins in the spray completely dry out and begin to break down, meaning he's not getting adequate nutrition. I have some Reptocal powder as well, but prefer the spray over the powder.
I think I'll try to catch some moths this evening by my porch light and dust them with Reptocal.
I'll let you know how he's doing later this week...
Regards,
Jeff
Re: problem with my Desert Banded Gecko - Coleonyx variegatu
I highly doubt this is problem is related (purely) to nutrition. I think Kelly MC was suggesting pedialyte just to get him some basic easily absorbed electrolytes (which is an excellent idea) to get the poor guy through the next day or two..........Best of luck!
Re: problem with my Desert Banded Gecko - Coleonyx variegatu
I've kept and bred Banded Geckos for a number of years.
As far as your setup, you should have a humidity hidebox as well as a heat gradient.
As far as calcium, they will eat powdered calcium out of a small dish - that's what I'd provide them with 24/7.
If the mainstay of their diet is mealworms, I'd change it. I'd have mealworms be less than 50% of the diet and have crickets be the main component.
I've seen a few Western Hognose Snakes with scent gland infections, and that's the first thing that came to mind when I saw your gecko. Though in relation to its anatomy, it's probably a hemipene infection.
Tim
As far as your setup, you should have a humidity hidebox as well as a heat gradient.
As far as calcium, they will eat powdered calcium out of a small dish - that's what I'd provide them with 24/7.
If the mainstay of their diet is mealworms, I'd change it. I'd have mealworms be less than 50% of the diet and have crickets be the main component.
I've seen a few Western Hognose Snakes with scent gland infections, and that's the first thing that came to mind when I saw your gecko. Though in relation to its anatomy, it's probably a hemipene infection.
Tim
Re: problem with my Desert Banded Gecko - Coleonyx variegatu
yeah basically identical in care to a leopard gecko .
hi chitin + no gradient + loose sand can be a bit of a husbandry time bomb .
mealworms for me personally serve only as an accent of diversity - mostly for neural enrichment of experiencing Various in prey shape , etc . waxworms make a nice caloric surprise in the little calcium dish .
for animals that are healthy and can eat . that guy may not be able to - not just not want to
hi chitin + no gradient + loose sand can be a bit of a husbandry time bomb .
mealworms for me personally serve only as an accent of diversity - mostly for neural enrichment of experiencing Various in prey shape , etc . waxworms make a nice caloric surprise in the little calcium dish .
for animals that are healthy and can eat . that guy may not be able to - not just not want to
Re: problem with my Desert Banded Gecko - Coleonyx variegatu
some thoughts about mealworms and chitin per opportunity on this (useful)thread
some insects may have just as much if not more chiten , but it seems that its the Character of it with mealworms - the very polished , cylindrical , seamless of form that makes assimilation different then jointed , variably constructed arthropods . the long shelf life and option of no upkeep make the temptation to rely on the mealworms easy for ppl . i feed dubia to alot of my animals , thawed and live - surprisingly large ones to my animals - oh im sure i wud be scolded by many a keeper if they saw , but they digest them perfectly
some insects may have just as much if not more chiten , but it seems that its the Character of it with mealworms - the very polished , cylindrical , seamless of form that makes assimilation different then jointed , variably constructed arthropods . the long shelf life and option of no upkeep make the temptation to rely on the mealworms easy for ppl . i feed dubia to alot of my animals , thawed and live - surprisingly large ones to my animals - oh im sure i wud be scolded by many a keeper if they saw , but they digest them perfectly
Re: problem with my Desert Banded Gecko - Coleonyx variegatu
Aren't their many well known leopard gecko breeders that feed solely mealworms?
Re: problem with my Desert Banded Gecko - Coleonyx variegatu
as far as i know - there are minions of " Breeders" and people that keep them as pets that feed almost all mealworms - or even , all mealworms .
Did i say somewhere that they couldnt?
Did i say somewhere that they couldnt?
Re: problem with my Desert Banded Gecko - Coleonyx variegatu
Joseph, not all meal worms are created equal! The goat loading can make a difference. Also, Tenebrio meal worms are very chitonous, but easy to raise. So I only feed the soft, white ones which are freshly shed. Zoophobias (sp?) meal worms are larger, often too large for Coleonyx, but when small are probably a better food source. Thees too I feed when freshly shed, soft, and white. and small enough. I have heard of highly competent breeders rasing geckos from hatchling to breeding adults on nothing but properly gut loaded Zoophobias worms. Be wary of feeding too many meal worms, especially mature "yellow" ones at a time, as lizards/geckos will often eat them with gusto, but regurgitate them shortly thereafter, a loss of calories, not a good thing...Joseph S. wrote:Aren't their many well known leopard gecko breeders that feed solely mealworms?
I suggest a wide variety of diet. It may make captive life more stimulating for the keeper and the kept, it buffers our nutritional errors, it covers the bases for providing trace elements etc. I live in the range of Coleonyx and I find them frequently in my yard. I notice they are often in the same habitat as crickets, which are similar or identical to the domestic form of crickets. Thus, I would think crickets are a part of the natural diet and probably an excellent component of the diet, especially if dusted with Ca. and gut loaded.
good luck, we all learn form mistakes and sharing experiences on this forum may be very helpful to others. Thanks for sharing your experience and I hope your gecko will recover. Sometimes they can pass foreign matter, ie. sand over time. Ingesting things like this sometimes occurs, and may indicate a nutritonal issue. Prolapsing is real serious, and I just don't have experience with it.
Vic
- chris_mcmartin
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Re: problem with my Desert Banded Gecko - Coleonyx variegatu
Holy smokes, just how big ARE your meal worms?VICtort wrote:Joseph, not all meal worms are created equal! The goat loading can make a difference.
I have a few banded geckos, 1.0 C.v.abbotti and 2.2 C.brevis (and an indeterminate number of babies which my friend hatched for me). I sometimes feed spiders to mine. I notice whenever I'm in the deserts of West TX just how many wolf spiders are out there on any given night--lots of little eyeshines. I figure at least some of them fall prey to the geckos.
Re: problem with my Desert Banded Gecko - Coleonyx variegatu
when in doubt - rupturing the body of the larger zophobias has the effect of busting a coated tablet with your teeth before swallowing . like the dubia i have fed the large zophobias to animals that Conventionally would seem too small for them but gave them a helpful rupture . with small mealworms - what you would feed a banded gecko - if they were all that was available then you wud want to cover the bases to assure the vivarium has the gradient/ hi spot for efficient digestion . thats why i dont usually offer them to the frail or infirmed
Geckos eat bugs - bugs are covered by chitin. mealworms are same .
when compromised in vigor or by deficit in environment - what is normal changes
they are easy to gut load and manipulate that way - eat alot and whatever you want to give them
i do not think it is helpful to mimic everything commercial breeders do . Cutting corners and entrepreneurship arent animal husbandry skills . but has become smoke and mirror example
Geckos eat bugs - bugs are covered by chitin. mealworms are same .
when compromised in vigor or by deficit in environment - what is normal changes
they are easy to gut load and manipulate that way - eat alot and whatever you want to give them
i do not think it is helpful to mimic everything commercial breeders do . Cutting corners and entrepreneurship arent animal husbandry skills . but has become smoke and mirror example
- BillMcGighan
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Re: problem with my Desert Banded Gecko - Coleonyx variegatu
Not directly a help, but,
since these are from the wild, should parasite check be done and possibly prophylactic treatment????
since these are from the wild, should parasite check be done and possibly prophylactic treatment????
Re: problem with my Desert Banded Gecko - Coleonyx variegatu
Chris and Bill have made great points
spiders are a much better choice for banded geckos to eat , with small crickets as a cultured substitute
spiders are a much better choice for banded geckos to eat , with small crickets as a cultured substitute
Re: problem with my Desert Banded Gecko - Coleonyx variegatu
to clarify something mentioned - when i feed larger dubia or mealworms and occasionally rupture them , or half them etc - i am referring to Thawed Bugs . which i offer on alligator forceps (12" thin and great for insectivore feeding btw when a little micromanagement is desired ) or in a dish for animals that have been habituated to accept it such )
i find it unpleasant and unnecessary to Injure any animal for purpose of feeding it to another . they are either offered alive , or thawed .
Especially my dubia - i enjoy them and treat them respectfully. They are like my little buffalo herd
i find it unpleasant and unnecessary to Injure any animal for purpose of feeding it to another . they are either offered alive , or thawed .
Especially my dubia - i enjoy them and treat them respectfully. They are like my little buffalo herd
- SurfinHerp
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Re: problem with my Desert Banded Gecko - Coleonyx variegatu
Update on my gecko:
- he's still alive, but not doing any better
- I got a vet consult and was told that the infected hemipene needs to be amputated, at a cost of "at least $150", possibly more
- I haven't gone through with the procedure, mostly because I'm reluctant to pay so much, partly because it sounds like an awful thing to do, and partly because I'm doubtful he'll survive it in his weak condition
- I'm trying to get him stronger and to start eating again: I cleaned the tank, soaked him in warm water/Pedialyte, inserted a heat pad under one side of his tank, and offered moths and spiders
I'll post another update when his condition changes.
I appreciate everyone's input - Thank you!! It's educating me on expert gecko husbandry and will help me keep my female healthy. Hopefully I'll be able to breed her one of these days.
Kind Regards,
Jeff
- he's still alive, but not doing any better
- I got a vet consult and was told that the infected hemipene needs to be amputated, at a cost of "at least $150", possibly more
- I haven't gone through with the procedure, mostly because I'm reluctant to pay so much, partly because it sounds like an awful thing to do, and partly because I'm doubtful he'll survive it in his weak condition
- I'm trying to get him stronger and to start eating again: I cleaned the tank, soaked him in warm water/Pedialyte, inserted a heat pad under one side of his tank, and offered moths and spiders
I'll post another update when his condition changes.
I appreciate everyone's input - Thank you!! It's educating me on expert gecko husbandry and will help me keep my female healthy. Hopefully I'll be able to breed her one of these days.
Kind Regards,
Jeff
- Biker Dave
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Re: problem with my Desert Banded Gecko - Coleonyx variegatu
Jeff
Its been a few weeks from your last post. What is the status of your sick coleonyx?
Dave
Its been a few weeks from your last post. What is the status of your sick coleonyx?
Dave
- SurfinHerp
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Re: problem with my Desert Banded Gecko - Coleonyx variegatu
Sorry to say that my gecko passed away a couple of weeks ago.
It seemed as though warm soaks in water/Pedialyte helped keep him going for an extra month or so, but I don't think he ate anything I offered. He was just too weak I guess.
He probably picked up the infection of his vent/hemipene because I didn't remove droppings often enough and the temps were a little too cool. He may have been aging as well, since I'm not sure how old he was when collected.
I've improved the conditions in the tank for the benefit of my (still very healthy) female. I've also been in touch with VICtort and am arranging to take in one of his captive-bred males.
Thanks again everyone for all the tips and advice!
Jeff
It seemed as though warm soaks in water/Pedialyte helped keep him going for an extra month or so, but I don't think he ate anything I offered. He was just too weak I guess.
He probably picked up the infection of his vent/hemipene because I didn't remove droppings often enough and the temps were a little too cool. He may have been aging as well, since I'm not sure how old he was when collected.
I've improved the conditions in the tank for the benefit of my (still very healthy) female. I've also been in touch with VICtort and am arranging to take in one of his captive-bred males.
Thanks again everyone for all the tips and advice!
Jeff
Re: problem with my Desert Banded Gecko - Coleonyx variegatu
Your honesty and candid disclosure of presentation was Triumph in itself. All of us who posted was just icing on the cake but you were the cake.
Sometimes we forget that we arent just posting to each other - but to people for who knows how long - who click on a topic that may mirror their own issue, or has potential to. You shared without ego and you will help others. And other little banded guys
Sometimes we forget that we arent just posting to each other - but to people for who knows how long - who click on a topic that may mirror their own issue, or has potential to. You shared without ego and you will help others. And other little banded guys
-
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Re: problem with my Desert Banded Gecko - Coleonyx variegatu
Sucks he passed man But hopefully your changes will prevent it from happening agian.
- Biker Dave
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