Pine and Bull Pics

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Gary2sons
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Pine and Bull Pics

Post by Gary2sons »

Have always wanted a pine so jumped at the chance when I found this one at a pet shop. Not even sure if it is a southern or northern pine. It was about 200 grams but a year later now weighs in at 800+ grams.

Tried posing it in a log just to be different.

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Tried something else with the bull snake.

That is a piece of Oregon petrified wood.

Never really got the pics I wanted but will try a little harder next time.

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He seems to be keeping his colors and weighs about 900 grams

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Would really like this guy to get some size eventually, maybe around 6 feet hopefully.

Have also been trying pics with the petrified wood on some of my smaller snakes. Will post those pics later.

Thanks for looking!

Gary
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Berkeley Boone
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Re: Pine and Bull Pics

Post by Berkeley Boone »

Very nice Gary! Your pine looks to be like a very nice yellow phase northern pine.

They're looking good!
--Berkeley
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monklet
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Re: Pine and Bull Pics

Post by monklet »

Nice yellow pine! ...and very interesting bull. Not quite sure what to make of that, but good looking snake.
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Gary2sons
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Re: Pine and Bull Pics

Post by Gary2sons »

Thanks Berkeley on the pine being a northern! I'm new to pines so had no idea.
monklet wrote:Nice yellow pine! ...and very interesting bull. Not quite sure what to make of that, but good looking snake.
Brad, curious what you meant on the bull being very interesting? Being a pit fan you must have seen something in that snake! Whether it is good or bad! :lol:

Got that snake from a reptile center so don't have a clue as to its background. Although I'm almost certain it is captive bred. It was a little thin but has really put on the weight the last year.

Thanks for commenting!

Gary
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monklet
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Re: Pine and Bull Pics

Post by monklet »

I'd like to see a little more of that snake but to my eye it appears there may be some hanky panky in its history. Good looking snake, and definitely full of bull, perhaps in more ways than one ;) If pure, I'd lean toward the eastern part of sayi range. ...yep, I'm pit fan but not at all confident in my assessment. I'd like to hear some other opinions :?:

Even if it is a mutt, I wouldn't feel bad ...one of my very favorite snakes is a mutt ruthveni. I'd just like to know with what??? ...best indications I have based on what I know of its history is lodingi, believe it or not! :shock:
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justinm
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Re: Pine and Bull Pics

Post by justinm »

It looks lighter like a more Southern and Western Bull than what I see. Here's a Bullsnake from my yard for reference to what I see in the Peoria area of Illinois. Ours seem darker in this area.

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Chris Smith
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Re: Pine and Bull Pics

Post by Chris Smith »

The bull looks normal to me (really nice looking normal). Looks like a couple of the ones from Kansas published in the new Kansas herp book.

-Chris
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justinm
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Re: Pine and Bull Pics

Post by justinm »

Here's Kansas Bull from the Hays area. He looks more like your Bull Gary, than what I see in this part of the range.

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monklet
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Re: Pine and Bull Pics

Post by monklet »

That IL bull rocks Justin ...kankakee style eh? ....beauty. I'll aquiesce, just a good looking bull with a look I'm not especially familiar with. Too bad we'll probably never know what locale.
Lloyd Heilbrunn
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Re: Pine and Bull Pics

Post by Lloyd Heilbrunn »

My new Southern

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Gary2sons
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Re: Pine and Bull Pics

Post by Gary2sons »

Justin---Those Kankakee bulls are nice! Lots of black!

Chris---Thanks and I'll settle for a nice looking normal anytime!

Brad---Thanks for the comments and keeping this post interesting! Always find your comments very interesting since you keep several pits and others!

Lloyd---Nice looking snake, I really like the white in the southern pines!

Gary
hellihooks
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Re: Pine and Bull Pics

Post by hellihooks »

1st of all...srry 4 the voucher-level pics... just snapped some shots 4 ID... :roll:
Justin... are Kankakee's the same as 'Chi-go's... that's what I got these as...
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Next...This pair of bulls came from the exact same locality, near Clovis NM. W Texas Bulls? Intergrade with sonoran?
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And finally, for fun, any guesses on this naturally occuring x?
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Thx... jim
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monklet
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Re: Pine and Bull Pics

Post by monklet »

annectens X deserticola :)
hellihooks
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Re: Pine and Bull Pics

Post by hellihooks »

monklet wrote:annectens X deserticola :)
Yeah... you know where I live... :roll: Oh wait...it's listed under my name...DOH! :lol: :lol: jim
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monklet
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Re: Pine and Bull Pics

Post by monklet »

Quite frankly, didn't consider that, just the overall look. :)
hellihooks
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Re: Pine and Bull Pics

Post by hellihooks »

monklet wrote:Quite frankly, didn't consider that, just the overall look. :)
good call, then... :thumb: jim
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justinm
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Re: Pine and Bull Pics

Post by justinm »

Jim,

I'm a few hours South of Kankakee and that area isn't what it used to be. It's very close to Chicago area, and I'm sure that they're from that area. I'm a few hours South in a little known area, but they all look pretty much the same as Kankakee. They're losing ground in my area. I just found out that one pristine prairie is going to be a Church. I can't tell you how badly I want to burn down churches as it is, but this new one really chaps my ass. I think one of every two streets around here has a damned church on it, so they're short supply...
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monklet
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Re: Pine and Bull Pics

Post by monklet »

Wow Lloyd, missed this one. Flamin' awesome southern :shock:
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woodsrunner
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Re: Pine and Bull Pics

Post by woodsrunner »

Hey Gary - chiming in late for the party on this one - hopefully you still have these snakes and have not gotten into horses or something in the meantime.

I've done a lot of field work with bulls at the northern extreme of the northern extreme of bullsnake range, and kept and hunted bulls elsewhere in their range. Here's what i've noticed. Bullsnakes subtly vary in morphology and not so sublty throughout their range with some trends. I find the ones here in Alberta tend to more resemble in different ways the ones from the northeastern part of their range, as though that is where the gene flow originally came from. One would expect them to look like Montana bulls, but to me the Montana bulls have more akin to southern bulls than to the Alberta's. Amd even within Alberta, they vary. A Medicine Hat bull looks different from a Drumheller bull, pretty much invariably, and the two types are recognizable to someone deep into the minutiae like me... :roll:

Anyway, long story short, your bull could very easily be an Alberta bull, Medicine Hat area. The bulls here run the gamut in colour, some looking like southwestern, others looking as dark as the average Kankakee (although the blotches tend to be a different shape,) and everything in between. They have a look to them like many snakes (take the Kentucky northen pine) that becomes recognizable once you've seen enough of them. They tend to be clean and crisp in colour, like yours, and otherwise to resemble Colorado specimens on average, although some are very dark.

Here's a darker one from Medicine Hat (i call this a "coffee bull")
http://www.google.ca/imgres?q=bullsnake ... SAg&zoom=1

Here's a typical Medicine Hat bull:
http://www.google.ca/imgres?q=medicine+ ... 3,s:0,i:98

Here's a paler one from Drumheller:
http://www.google.ca/imgres?q=bullsnake ... 2,s:0,i:74

That's a real nice pine, too! I sure love those yellow phase northerns - not so easy to find, and incredibly beautiful.
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woodsrunner
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Re: Pine and Bull Pics

Post by woodsrunner »

monklet wrote:I'd like to see a little more of that snake but to my eye it appears there may be some hanky panky in its history. Good looking snake, and definitely full of bull, perhaps in more ways than one ;) If pure, I'd lean toward the eastern part of sayi range. ...yep, I'm pit fan but not at all confident in my assessment. I'd like to hear some other opinions :?:

Even if it is a mutt, I wouldn't feel bad ...one of my very favorite snakes is a mutt ruthveni. I'd just like to know with what??? ...best indications I have based on what I know of its history is lodingi, believe it or not! :shock:
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I like the "mutts" too! Could this fave one of yours be simply a ruthveni x sayi? I knew of a near identical snake to this once, purported to be a pure bullsnake. Here's one of my favorite hybrids, 50/50 sayi x lodingi:
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/photo.ph ... 0&size=big
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monklet
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Re: Pine and Bull Pics

Post by monklet »

woodsrunner wrote:Could this fave one of yours be simply a ruthveni x sayi?
Could be but based on what I understand from a very convoluted story and background, and to my eye for what it's worth, there's no indication of that. In fact, I've come to understand that it just may in fact be a pure ruthveni. There's nothing that really contradicts ruthvenin except for the hypered color.

I'd love to see a pic of the ruthveni x sayi that you mention. Your sayi x lodingi looks very interesting but it's hard to see everything in that pic. Got any more?

Brad
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woodsrunner
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Re: Pine and Bull Pics

Post by woodsrunner »

The only thing that doesn't say "pure louisiana" about your snake is the build - it looks like a well-fed animal, yet still appears in this pic to have the slightly more lanky, cylindrical build of the bullsnake in this photo. To me, pines are girthier for their length, and when thinner (granted this one is not) have a more triangular cross-section than the bull. Very interesting snake, though!

Here's a couple more shots of my lodingi x sayi, whose mother was a pure black lodingi and father a dark Alberta bull with big square saddles (i don't know of any sayi x ruthveni):

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/photo.ph ... 0&size=big

In this one, he is a yearling.

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/photo.ph ... 0&size=big

Here he is as an adult - you can see the blackening over time.

Other hatchlings from this cross looked much like hatchling ruthveni and some like mugitus. If i can figure out how to directly post photo files here, that would help. Or maybe they must be posted on a website first?

By the way, i just viewed a pic on this forum of a Missouri bull that looked much like Gary's snake - crisp pattern, pure yellow head.

Jon
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