Removing eyecaps

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simus343
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Removing eyecaps

Post by simus343 »

One of the Indigo Snakes at the education center on property at work has an eyecap (possibly multiple stacked up, or so we think) that did not come off with the last shed(s).

Does anyone have any tips on how to get rid of it? The edges seem to be situated down in the crease of the eye and the facial scales of the snake. Soaking it isn't working so far.

We've taken her to a vet before, I am just wondering if there is an alternate, cheaper or free version, that someone here with experience with similar / the same issue has used successfully. Saves money, which currently is a high priority for the organization, still not above care of the animals though.

If no one has any solutions (preferably tried and true) then it'll be the vet again, so no worries if none. That won't be for about another week though, at the soonest, I think.

Thanks
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Removing eyecaps

Post by Kelly Mc »

If you soak him in water he will keep head up and not get face wet. It works better in a soggy stew of sphagnum, or any thoroughly wet material. I have a cream that I use too when expedience is called for but the commercial brands of shed aid aren't bad, and are fine for eyecaps.

Prep in wet cover that the snake receives whole contact makes it very easy. Indigos have easy eyes to work on , not recessed easy to find tag. If no tag I used a butlers gum stimulator or a tuberculin plunger with the rubber stopper cut at an angle. Dry snake and use the cut plunger to lift the cap. There is a light adhesion dynamic that makes the cap cling to the rubber surface.

But if you have him softened up adequately by soak, and dab the cap dry first, the pad of your thumb usually shifts off the cap enough to pull away. Getting the cap soft with moisture first makes a great difference in getting it off easily.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Removing eyecaps

Post by Kelly Mc »

Simus its pretty funny you posted this now because I have to take an uber tonight after work to remove a balls eyecaps. The lady's daughter who owns the ball is at Burning Man. For all my misgivings about the digital age, this phone does come in pretty handy. I have a picture of a hamsters testicles that confounded his owner I need to delete. Or frame. Lol.
simus343
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Re: Removing eyecaps

Post by simus343 »

How would I sufficiently soak the eye without manually holding down the snake's head or submerging the entire head under water where it can't lift out? While she won't bite, she still struggles and I'd rather not struggle against her, can't afford an injury a week before the education season starts (4th and 7th grade). I also don't feel comfortable keeping it fully submerged. I have a bad tendency to do other work while waiting on something and snake-Pneumonia is never a good thing, or drowning for that matter.

If I can get the eye soaked I'll give the little plunger deal-y a try though.

I don't get the final say on cage design at the education center. Almost all of the snakes have shedding issues because of extraordinarily dry enclosures and apparent refusal, by those with final say, to use a shed-box or humidity-box despite my having supplied 4 gallons of compressed sphagnum and a plethora of unused boxes just sitting around the place.

Cage humidity usually sits around 40% with most of the cages.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Removing eyecaps

Post by Kelly Mc »

First of all I must say that its unfortunate that you aren't in charge there because Simus, you should be.

About soaking..

The whole beauty of a proper soak is that it minimizes restraint time and picking around the eyes which they hate.

With a long enough soak, the epidermis often slides right off.

Do not hold the snake in water. Size the container to fit the snake in a nice, comfortable coil. Fill it with wet media in tepid temp. Not warm. Default to cooler if there is a side to err.

Make sure the container is ventilated but not like its been shot with a machine gun. In other words the snake is soaked in a lidded tub, snug, and full of moist media. I like sphagnum.

When the snake has settled you can lightly cover her with more moist sphagnum or other moist media. Paper towels, romaine leaves, both work.

Even if she shifts around she will move her face thru the moist material and it will soften the exuv.

The longer she stays in, the easier it comes off, often right in the container. The whole aim of the soak is to make it easy, and it does!


Editd out a typo
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Removing eyecaps

Post by Kelly Mc »

Double post phone battery stucky
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Removing eyecaps

Post by Kelly Mc »

When I don't have time to soak a snake, there is a human prescription cream I use that if I can find an over the counter equivalent of its ingredients, I will post.

I don't like to use oils or ointments on reptile dermis. I think they are too penetrative, and residual and should never be used near a shed.

The 'technical' difference between a cream and an ointment, is that a cream has a significant component of water whipped in, that makes it a more compatible agent for use with reptile skin purposes.



Ok so, in the course of a day as its noticed, i have used a little spit on an eyecap or tail tip, and it worked perfectly.
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Joseph S.
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Re: Removing eyecaps

Post by Joseph S. »

For a snake that size...I'd soak a beach towel and put that into a appropriate sized container.
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Bryan Hamilton
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Re: Removing eyecaps

Post by Bryan Hamilton »

I usually put the snake in a pillowcase for the soak. Then its face is in contact with the wet bag. It kind of acts like a humidity chamber.

How big of a problem are retained eyecaps or some shed left on the tail? Don't them often come off with the next shed?
simus343
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Re: Removing eyecaps

Post by simus343 »

Bryan Hamilton wrote:

How big of a problem are retained eyecaps or some shed left on the tail? Don't them often come off with the next shed?
In my experience with other snakes in cages with proper humidity, yes. However, we believe that there is multiple eye-caps that have not shed, having been stuck under the first which won't come off for whatever reason.

I won't be there again until Friday, so I'll start working through the options one at a time for 1-2 hours at a time and see what works.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Removing eyecaps

Post by Kelly Mc »

simus343 wrote: I won't be there again until Friday, so I'll start working through the options one at a time for 1-2 hours at a time and see what works.
Please, don't do that. Please don't put the snake though a marathon of methods. Its unnecessary and the snake sounds like it endures enough.

Pick a method that has merit and just do it to the letter.

Do what you like, but know that a moist sphagnum soak has worked in several hundreds of instances. Just put her in and put a light layer over her head and neck. Sphagnum is acidic, ie; a natural wetting agent and has other qualities that alleviate stress.

I use it environmentally with nervous snakes, wayward wildcaughts, snakes on meds or receiving injections, snakes that were pulled out of drains and had possible sprains and ligament damage, snakes that were given up because the were "aggressive" snakes many snakes many reasons. Its like an environmental valium.

But most of all its great in a drench for resolving retained shed quickly and without fanfare.
VICtort
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Re: Removing eyecaps

Post by VICtort »

simus, I work with a collection of Drymarchon couperi, Eastern indigos for the last couple of decades and I too have encountered that situation. If you wish, PM me and I will give you a phone number and I can probably give you a solution to prevent and solve the issue. It is usually easy...but I don't want to write down every possible variable/nuance here.

Good luck, Vic (I never tire of discussing Eatern Indigos, a source of endless fascination to me)
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Removing eyecaps

Post by Kelly Mc »

Hmm Vic very respectfully I submit that a pm to a poster, on a thread where someone else has taken the time to share, is necessary, I mean you could have pm'd Simus directly?

If as an indigo breeder you have contention with the therapeutic use of sphagnum resolving dysecdysis in indigos, I would like to know what it could be? I have not breed indigos but took care of a large captive group of eastern and cribos, lots of opportunities to remedy eyecaps and bad sheds, there were problems with the way they were housed that reflect the powers that be Simus described.

If there is additional input specific to the species, I would be interested in it also.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Removing eyecaps

Post by Kelly Mc »

I am wondering if it is damp sand? I'm sincerely interested, and yes in variances and nuances , especially.

What I will emphasize in re to the animal in question. : choose your true blue method and stick with that procedure. If it is the right method and its done correctly It Works In One Try. Simple fact there.

If it doesn't it means it wasn't executed correctly. Its not a tough problem compared to many other cases of shed / eyecap issues. Sorry if I sound brusque, but I have a sore spot for snakes going through unnecessary and arduous experiences unnecessarily. Especially in repetition. I see it alot in forums.
Kfen
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Re: Removing eyecaps

Post by Kfen »

I'm surprised no one has suggested tape yet. FIRST soak the snake. I like a combo of the above, damp sphagnum in a wet pillowcase. The wrap some scotch or masking tape around your finger, obviously sticky side out. Then GENTLY touch the snakes eye and pull straight off. It has worked for me several times. If doesn't work with the first couple tries, soak again. Good luck and let us know.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Removing eyecaps

Post by Kelly Mc »

Tape can leave portion of corneum, or even the whole rim, in the groove of the brille.

Its also kind of cool for any therapeutic method to be as unobtrusive as possible.


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simus343
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Re: Removing eyecaps

Post by simus343 »

Could an old potion of rim cause further blockage as it sheds? The bit that is lodged between the eye and surrounding scales? One of the other people at the center is there far more often than I (they're there 5-7 days a week, over a year I average 1 day a week). I have a feeling than in trying to remove an old cap early this spring that they may have left part of the cap's rim and not realised it at all.

There is people that don't know how to take care of animals trying and making things worse. Best part is I don't get a say in who can/can't take care of stuff, I just "do as I'm told". It's why I prefer field work any day over working with captives besides my own collection.

She'll probably get soaked in a large tub (foot wide, about 2.5 feet long, and 2.5 feet tall) with a drenched towel. The sphagnum stores I brought out are used for the frog and salamander tanks.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Removing eyecaps

Post by Kelly Mc »

Yes. The conditions of the snake, which includes stress and even respiratory moisture loss, can degrade the integrity of the corneum. The incremental growth in (even) adult snakes can further the grip and adhesion of a retained spectacle.

But the groove is a weak tear zone.

If the snake has a plane of shed involving even some of the face shields, and its connected to the eye cap, it is an easy fix with enough moisture, and enough duration .
VICtort
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Re: Removing eyecaps

Post by VICtort »

Kelly Mc wrote:Hmm Vic very respectfully I submit that a pm to a poster, on a thread where someone else has taken the time to share, is necessary, I mean you could have pm'd Simus directly?

If as an indigo breeder you have contention with the therapeutic use of sphagnum resolving dysecdysis in indigos, I would like to know what it could be? I have not breed indigos but took care of a large captive group of eastern and cribos, lots of opportunities to remedy eyecaps and bad sheds, there were problems with the way they were housed that reflect the powers that be Simus described.

If there is additional input specific to the species, I would be interested in it also.
Yes, I should have done that, I have no agenda or disagreement with anyone posting. I did not even think one way or the other about sphagnum moss, and I often say there is more than one way to achieve a goal, so I certainly do not find fault in methods that work. I think you may have read something into my post I never intended (contention?) , I was just trying to offer assistance that would be of specific interest to Simus and his colleagues and likely of less interest to the general forum audience. I should have contacted him directly, I will keep this in mind...Vic
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Removing eyecaps

Post by Kelly Mc »

If you get her to coil calmly in a secure situ and put some moist cover over her, viola.

I share this because I have done it, and it works 100% of the time. I have explained it to others and they have done it, and it works 100% percent of the time, if they don't deviate from the instruct.

I treat all animals as if they're my own, but there is a different pressure of accountability to results when dealing with animals that belong to paying clients. I know its fun to share but if you just want to get it solved with all bases covered, including the impact on the snake, re read my posts.
Thanks. Don't mean to be an ass but it works stellar.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Removing eyecaps

Post by Kelly Mc »

I just read your post Vic, yeah I was genuinely curious in what is significantly different about taking a stuck eyecap off an indigo, as I have found them rather typical and easy, compared to say, tiny recessed sand boa brilles or head coil covering burms.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Removing eyecaps

Post by Kelly Mc »

There are many times when I do not want to soak a whole animal for a small site of retained shed, whether its eyecaps, tail tips, toes. I use in these cases a keratolytic cream that softens the shed in minutes.

Last night all it took was a little repeated spraying with a mister for awhile on an otherwise healthy ball with a decent tag.

But in the past year Ive worked on some other balls, babies captive bred by an owner who had long term captives whom he incubated the eggs and got them to hatch that all needed work. another incident last year involved a juvenile sand boa encased in shed and a juvenile ball python encased in shed both separate cases, both too weak from not being able to fully breathe for weeks. None of these animals I wanted to soak. The babies because it was just head and neck work, and the encased guys because they were weak.

In these instances I use the cream. After being free of the shed the snakes were fine, and the owners watched for signs of respiratory distress and were given a veterinary reference to use at their discretion, but luckily it was not needed.

But the keratolytic cream is very expedient and perfect for some situations, and it works well with multiple layers.

My nature is such that animals come first before tentatively polite social discourse, and I did not mean to come off unpleasant or brusque, but Simus has a rough hoe to toe at that place, and I was trying to help an animal that sounds like it deserved be treated as courteously and expediently as possible.
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