Just curious how you guys have balanced the dichotomy that exists between maintaining a collection and frequent moves or travel.
So far my collection is pretty small but it does make moving tricky-I have done several moves fortunate to have friends along the way to stay with. I'd imagine for extended ventures I would need someone I could trust to watch over the collection, or temporarily get out of animals alltogether? What sorts of sacrifices have you all made and looking back what are your thoughts?
Maintaining a collection and travel/living situations
Moderator: Scott Waters
Re: Maintaining a collection and travel/living situations
I'm a snake guy, I quit keeping lizards, frogs turtles etc some years back. On the whole, those require more frequent husbandry interaction. So my comments are limited to snakes, but some of them might generalize to other kinds of herps too.
Travel has been easier for me than moving. Most of my trips are <3 weeks. These just show you why snakes make great "pets" - you don't really have to do anything except make sure you leave them full clean water bowls, clean cages, etc. I like a dedicated snake room with some automation, so lights, heating, and - if needed - misting/drippers are all on timers.
Longer trips require a friend to come by for cleaning, water changes etc.
If you breed your own rodents, I found trips longer than a week require someone to come by. Even with food hoppers and drip water nozzles. They just need substrates changed and the kibble & water bucket topped off.
Moving can be tough. Harmless snakes are relatively easy, venomous kicks it up a notch, just to be a good neighbor to all the folks' lives you're passing through (No Accidents of Any Sort Allowed). Your choices boil down to some combination of 1) moving the animals with you right when you go (careful not to cook or freeze them in the car!), 2) shipping the animals to your destination, after you've gotten their cages set up (you'll need a friend's help here, plus a set of temp housing tubs or whatever for your friend), and 3) liquidating your collection, in whole or part. Build back up when you get re-settled, or give it up (entirely or partially) and mostly/just field herp.
Easily my biggest sacrifice was liquidating a collection of ~60 vipers for one interstate move. Major suck, no way around it. I wonder if it was worth it, no other way to put it. I had built some good groups of things you just don't see for sale any more. Plus, they had some significant $ value I didn't recover. I think about it some...
I'd advise you be open to liquidating when you must (& figure out what that means to you...), and regardless, get good at being mobile. I'd further advise keeping your numbers down around 10 or fewer individuals of your favorite species/personality/sentimentality/whatever, give them great homes that - even if they're rather large or elaborate, aren't very heavy or fragile (no glass but the doors), and take them with you no matter what. And don't breed rodents if you don't have to, ha ha.
Hope this helps some, Joseph.
cheers
Jimi
Travel has been easier for me than moving. Most of my trips are <3 weeks. These just show you why snakes make great "pets" - you don't really have to do anything except make sure you leave them full clean water bowls, clean cages, etc. I like a dedicated snake room with some automation, so lights, heating, and - if needed - misting/drippers are all on timers.
Longer trips require a friend to come by for cleaning, water changes etc.
If you breed your own rodents, I found trips longer than a week require someone to come by. Even with food hoppers and drip water nozzles. They just need substrates changed and the kibble & water bucket topped off.
Moving can be tough. Harmless snakes are relatively easy, venomous kicks it up a notch, just to be a good neighbor to all the folks' lives you're passing through (No Accidents of Any Sort Allowed). Your choices boil down to some combination of 1) moving the animals with you right when you go (careful not to cook or freeze them in the car!), 2) shipping the animals to your destination, after you've gotten their cages set up (you'll need a friend's help here, plus a set of temp housing tubs or whatever for your friend), and 3) liquidating your collection, in whole or part. Build back up when you get re-settled, or give it up (entirely or partially) and mostly/just field herp.
Easily my biggest sacrifice was liquidating a collection of ~60 vipers for one interstate move. Major suck, no way around it. I wonder if it was worth it, no other way to put it. I had built some good groups of things you just don't see for sale any more. Plus, they had some significant $ value I didn't recover. I think about it some...
I'd advise you be open to liquidating when you must (& figure out what that means to you...), and regardless, get good at being mobile. I'd further advise keeping your numbers down around 10 or fewer individuals of your favorite species/personality/sentimentality/whatever, give them great homes that - even if they're rather large or elaborate, aren't very heavy or fragile (no glass but the doors), and take them with you no matter what. And don't breed rodents if you don't have to, ha ha.
Hope this helps some, Joseph.
cheers
Jimi
Re: Maintaining a collection and travel/living situations
Hello Jimi,
Thanks for the insight.
I've been trying to live by the "experiences not things" rules and the animals do count as possessions that make a mobile life a bit difficult. But my reasoning is also that any living situation where I cannot keep them may not be the best one to be in.
I keep everything small and compact. My dart frog/gecko tanks are all 12 x 12 x 18 or smaller. The feeders actually take up the most room(plastic bins for microfauna). The snakes I own are in plastic sweaterboxes or the low tanks with sliding tops. Have not done any large naturalistic vivs but if I settle I do plan on it.
What is interesting is that the dart frogs are the most logistically problematic, but aside from perhaps the fruitflies no one really minds the frogs and their tanks-they are beautiful and cool to look at. The snakes are the most socially problematic. I generally stick them into my room under the bed or somewhere where they can be out of sight and out of mind from phobic people.
I've been looking to get into another species or two of Dasypeltis since few are currently working with them. In just a few years species that were commonly imported(medici and atra) are now very scarce in the US-at least not many people are producing them. I'm thinking of putting together a couple gansi before things switch and they start disappearing-seeing as they were fairly unknown a few years ago.
All the Best
~Joseph See
Thanks for the insight.
I've been trying to live by the "experiences not things" rules and the animals do count as possessions that make a mobile life a bit difficult. But my reasoning is also that any living situation where I cannot keep them may not be the best one to be in.
I keep everything small and compact. My dart frog/gecko tanks are all 12 x 12 x 18 or smaller. The feeders actually take up the most room(plastic bins for microfauna). The snakes I own are in plastic sweaterboxes or the low tanks with sliding tops. Have not done any large naturalistic vivs but if I settle I do plan on it.
What is interesting is that the dart frogs are the most logistically problematic, but aside from perhaps the fruitflies no one really minds the frogs and their tanks-they are beautiful and cool to look at. The snakes are the most socially problematic. I generally stick them into my room under the bed or somewhere where they can be out of sight and out of mind from phobic people.
I've been looking to get into another species or two of Dasypeltis since few are currently working with them. In just a few years species that were commonly imported(medici and atra) are now very scarce in the US-at least not many people are producing them. I'm thinking of putting together a couple gansi before things switch and they start disappearing-seeing as they were fairly unknown a few years ago.
All the Best
~Joseph See
Re: Maintaining a collection and travel/living situations
Sure Joseph. Free talk - cheaper than cheap, ha ha. Nice to meet you.
- I too like to spend my time and money on experiences, as I feel people have infinite storage capacity for memories, whereas our "stuff" can just enslave us. (We all know people who spend far too much of their most precious commodity - their time - just managing their possessions.)
- On the other hand, all things in moderation - going without a few precious possessions would be an intolerable, unnecessary degree of abnegation (if self-inflicted) or tyranny (if imposed). Whatever is most precious to you - guns, jewelry, cameras, vivaria, whatever.
- My experience keeping animals leads me to consider them both precious possessions and also rich experiences - experiences both realized and potential, which maintains the romance, so to speak. So in a way, animal keeping - in moderation - is the best of both worlds. If overdone - via e.g. hoarding - it's just a form of self-enslavement to possessions.
Interesting observations on your part, and I like the way you allocate "problem-space" into social and logistical domains. What you say about Dasypeltis is exactly the same thing I have experienced with my interests. Things come and go, but in the long view, over multiple decades mostly they go. Which is why 1) liquidating really, really hurts and 2) you need to know what REALLY turns your crank, and be ready to bust a move when an opportunity - or a threat - pops up.
(I have thought some about keeping Dasypeltis - I agree with you that they are super-neat. I have wondered if keeping zebra finches would be a smart easy way to maintain a secure, top-quality food supply. Just like I have thought that if I ever wanted to start keeping Micruroides, I'd probably breed Lamprophis. Anyway, I digress...)
Good luck!
Jimi
I perceive wisdom in all this (but perhaps I'm just suffering the confirmation bias to which our species is prone...):I've been trying to live by the "experiences not things" rules and the animals do count as possessions that make a mobile life a bit difficult. But my reasoning is also that any living situation where I cannot keep them may not be the best one to be in.
- I too like to spend my time and money on experiences, as I feel people have infinite storage capacity for memories, whereas our "stuff" can just enslave us. (We all know people who spend far too much of their most precious commodity - their time - just managing their possessions.)
- On the other hand, all things in moderation - going without a few precious possessions would be an intolerable, unnecessary degree of abnegation (if self-inflicted) or tyranny (if imposed). Whatever is most precious to you - guns, jewelry, cameras, vivaria, whatever.
- My experience keeping animals leads me to consider them both precious possessions and also rich experiences - experiences both realized and potential, which maintains the romance, so to speak. So in a way, animal keeping - in moderation - is the best of both worlds. If overdone - via e.g. hoarding - it's just a form of self-enslavement to possessions.
Interesting observations on your part, and I like the way you allocate "problem-space" into social and logistical domains. What you say about Dasypeltis is exactly the same thing I have experienced with my interests. Things come and go, but in the long view, over multiple decades mostly they go. Which is why 1) liquidating really, really hurts and 2) you need to know what REALLY turns your crank, and be ready to bust a move when an opportunity - or a threat - pops up.
(I have thought some about keeping Dasypeltis - I agree with you that they are super-neat. I have wondered if keeping zebra finches would be a smart easy way to maintain a secure, top-quality food supply. Just like I have thought that if I ever wanted to start keeping Micruroides, I'd probably breed Lamprophis. Anyway, I digress...)
Good luck!
Jimi
Re: Maintaining a collection and travel/living situations
Jimi: I would love if more people started working with Dasypeltis. A facebook group has been started so people with them have a way to connect.
Zebra finches is doable...the little babies are very easy to tube feed if you are ok with that. Another trick is to put up bird boxes sized for invasive house sparrows and harvest the eggs.
Zebra finches is doable...the little babies are very easy to tube feed if you are ok with that. Another trick is to put up bird boxes sized for invasive house sparrows and harvest the eggs.
Re: Maintaining a collection and travel/living situations
Its tough, especially with bigger animals. I have a few animals I raised at work, my tegu in particular who I love dog deep, and when I think of the possibility of moving or making some other life change he is at the forefront. I live with my partner in a small apartment that has no option to house him, so its a quandary. Whenever we have looked at places we might like to relocate to, he's always in the criteria of what we need, space wise.
- umop apisdn
- Posts: 395
- Joined: June 13th, 2010, 6:06 pm
Re: Maintaining a collection and travel/living situations
As a Uroplatus addict, I had to give up on the genus entirely because of the need to pursue jobs. I'd occasionally get back into them, but it would be a couple of years tops before my life/living/work situation was no longer compatible.
Now I just do my best to be content with wild herps...and it helps that my job is based on them.
Now I just do my best to be content with wild herps...and it helps that my job is based on them.
Re: Maintaining a collection and travel/living situations
Real sorry to hear that man, you seemed to have a gift for them (don't I recall some phantasticus hatchling photos?) and you obviously derived Enormous pleasure from working with them. I've had some pretty long full-withdrawal periods too (including the undergrad years, and the subsequent gypsy-biologist years). Good times for what they were, but I'm glad that's all behind me.I had to give up on the genus entirely because of the need to pursue jobs
I think we can all just be thankful we're not aquarists! Those guys have it bad, mobility-wise. I had a fish-nut buddy in high school, I helped move him once. Jeez-Oh.
Anyway, I don't know why, but I've developed the impression you're not too old (mid-late 20's???). Hopefully (making all kinds of assumptions here, no offense meant at all) by the time life stabilizes some more for you (the ball & chain trifecta of forever-partner, "real job", and house payment, ha ha ha), Uro's won't be "commercially extinct" and you can get back to them.
Wild herps are awesome, I would truly hate to have to do without them. But to me they're "necessary but insufficient" for feeling...I dunno..."complete" or something. Achieving a state of true integrity. Some experiences, some sensations, some creative outlets, you just don't get without captives. On that note, I gotta get out to my garage! Working on a build...I can already smell the sawdust and wood glue. Gotta figure out lighting - these new LEDs are sweet but there's more to consider than with HO/VHO.
Best of luck, hope you can get back to your Uro's soon. You still in SC? Nice place to work with wild herps.
Jimi
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Re: Maintaining a collection and travel/living situations
Sulcatas in storage bins, huh.
I remember when I first was made aware of the mass production of them. Like a box of adorable, irresistible living buttons, eyes beaming with vibrant life. My solar plexus just kinda collapsed into my stomach.
Drab cab for cutie..
I remember when I first was made aware of the mass production of them. Like a box of adorable, irresistible living buttons, eyes beaming with vibrant life. My solar plexus just kinda collapsed into my stomach.
Drab cab for cutie..
Re: Maintaining a collection and travel/living situations
Jimi: I agree on captive herps. I feel like my observations of herps in the wild tend to be mere snapshots into their lives(I might try putting dabs of paint on a couple Sceloporus or Uta so individual observations are easier). It is difficult to be able to follow the more secretive ones for very long doing anything of note. This craving for the cradle to grave experience leads to herps in captivity.
I've worked with people(and keep in mind I work in environmental education) who are against the keeping of animals in captivity and I am always staunchly at odds-the educational value is immense.
I've worked with people(and keep in mind I work in environmental education) who are against the keeping of animals in captivity and I am always staunchly at odds-the educational value is immense.
- chris_mcmartin
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Re: Maintaining a collection and travel/living situations
Encourage them to take SWCHR's 2015 Reptile & Amphibian Public Opinion Survey--it has questions which address that perspective.Joseph S. wrote:Jimi: I agree on captive herps. I feel like my observations of herps in the wild tend to be mere snapshots into their lives(I might try putting dabs of paint on a couple Sceloporus or Uta so individual observations are easier). It is difficult to be able to follow the more secretive ones for very long doing anything of note. This craving for the cradle to grave experience leads to herps in captivity.
I've worked with people(and keep in mind I work in environmental education) who are against the keeping of animals in captivity and I am always staunchly at odds-the educational value is immense.
Re: Maintaining a collection and travel/living situations
Just a random thought...anyone ever keep herps in any sortof mobile housing? Seems temperature would be the biggest problem.