Rapid metabolism

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simus343
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Joined: March 30th, 2014, 1:16 pm
Location: Okaloosa ca, Fla.

Rapid metabolism

Post by simus343 »

Alarmingly, my male Heterodon platirhinos began to exhibit and extremely rapid metabolism about a month ago.

So far, I have been combating this by cramming him full of leopard frogs and bronze frogs. Prior to the metabolism boost, I had just been feeding him toads for the warm months. He does not hesitate to eat, but he seems to take longer to swallow his food than he use to, even a medium sized southern toad.

He is now in shed, so I am hoping it may be a rapid growth-spurt, as it seems to me he has gotten longer over the last 6 months.

My concern is how fast he is metabolising. I will feed him 2 leopard frogs, he will bulk out a bit, and then a week later he is showing lateral folds of skin along his body and is noticeably light weight when I pick him up. Another symptom includes he seems to wheeze through his mouth. His nares are not clogged, at least not that can be seen.

Stools still look the same as they always have. I have cooled the cage for now to keep higher temperatures from being an issue - I don't want him to metabolize faster than I can catch frogs.

If anyone knows what may be causing the rapid metabolism, and I mean very rapid, any help would be greatly appreciated - thankyou.
VICtort
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Re: Rapid metabolism

Post by VICtort »

This is a tough one, with so many variables. If you notice a change, it may well be a symptom. I realize Heterodon often depend on amphibians as a feed source. Toads and frogs may harbor parasites, some of which may become superabundant in a captive snake. Have you had a fecal analysis done by a competent parasitologist? Maybe that would be a place to start, as the rapid weight loss is troubling.

You may want to consult with a DVM, and they may want to send the sample(s) to a lab that has experience with reptiles/amphibians, in hopes of getting the best consultation/analysis. If you know a vet, maybe they would recommend someone, as not all Vets are experienced with this esoteric phase of veterinary medicine. Dr. Mader down in Marathon (?) has a wide reputation working with herps.

I hope you let us know what you learn, you are the only person I know of working with H. simus, and I really know little about them. I work with H.n. kennerlyi, and I make every effort to get them established on rodents, both for convenience and to avoid feeding amphibians which are so often sources of parasites. Obviously Heterodon and other species cope with parasites in the wild, but sometimes captive conditions allow parasites to become problematic. I wonder if that could be the case? Your snake is still feeding vigorously, and if it were some other disease/condition, inappetance might be likely. Thus I think parasites may be worth a look.

The wheezing, that may be a symptom of something else, or related. I really hope a Vet or rehab person offers an opinion. I also wish you the best of luck, it is obvious you care about working with this interesting and reportedly declining species. If one specimen is affected, it may well manifest itself in others over time.

Maybe frogs and toads do not carry the calories you are thinking? I have seen wild Heterodon and Thamnophis eat large numbers of toads when they were intermittently available...they really gorge on them when toads emerge from temporary breeding pools here in the South West.

Good luck,
Vic
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Rapid metabolism

Post by Kelly Mc »

Unless it an unusual condition from what you describe only it has the impression of being too hot over all, with an ascarid or cestode infestation.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Rapid metabolism

Post by Kelly Mc »

Simus you probably have looked at his stool but there are ways a keeper like you can examine it even closer.

You should also look into his mouth and see if there are any stray flukes spotting glottis.
simus343
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Location: Okaloosa ca, Fla.

Re: Rapid metabolism

Post by simus343 »

Well, first off I'm glad it isn't H. simus I'm working with haha, H. platirhinos. So if worst comes to worst it is easier to get more for breeding if something does go wrong. However, this one has been mine for about 5 years now and I am rather attached to him. If it was H. simus I'd already be in a panic driving to Dr. Mader in Marathon.

My H. platirhinos are all WC snakes, and have been established on amphibians well before I acquired them. I do have 10 eggs, 7-9 still viable I think, incubating where I can start them on pinkies early. With the frogs I am using, there is certainly a large amount of meat.

I fear that it may be parasitic. I don't think it is the same species of nematode I had earlier this year - those exhibited zits on the snake's skin and there are none exhibiting on my H. platirhinos. However, I found a garter snake neonate that I kept for a day to show to a friend's kids. This garter snake was thin as well. I found it in a very dry, very arid sandhill. I assumed it was dehydrated. Not thinking much of it, I let it take a soak in the same water dish that my H. platirhinos uses (in retrospect, regardless of current circumstances, a stupidly bad idea).

Unfortunately, there is no veterinarians within five hours of me that are capable of working with snakes. When the Indigo Snake I work with at work was sick, we had to travel to the Sea Turtle Center on Jekyll Island, GA to get it treated.

There is nothing in the stools. I have dug through the feces very carefully to look for anything odd, soaking it in water and moving through piece by piece under a microscope that was lent to me to use at work. I found nothing resembling a worm or even animal at all. If there is a parasite in there, I believe it may not exit via feces.

When I visted Dr. Terry Norton as the Sea Turtle Center I asked him about discoloration that I have seen in fecal samples in the past. He said that a green/blue coloration was an issue with the kidney/liver (can't remember which, I'm leaning liver). Luckily though, so far my H. platirhinos has shown no fecal discoloration.

Something else I read about is spinal trauma causing weight loss issues. My snakes are all used in hands-on education by hundreds of students. My male H. platirhinos has had easily thousands of individual people holding it, many people multiple times. Could something have happened to his spine to cause the weight loss / wheezing? When he wheezes he sort of moves his mouth like he is trying to re-align it, something I should have included in my initial description.

Hopefully he makes it through the winter or gets better. I'm going to try and freeze a gallon bag full of frogs and toads before cold weather hits. Next March there is a chance I will be heading towards Gainesville for 3-4 days and I'll try to find a D.V.M. reptile-specialist when I am down that way that may be able to look at him. Until then, frog herping and fingers crossed.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Rapid metabolism

Post by Kelly Mc »

Your guys issue aside, there is real opportunity for creative evolution of the educational outreach experience in not making handling the Main Event. A open style style viewing pen with coasters and a replicated native biome can showcase species and their modes of locomotion, even feeding demonstrations using small meals for hearty specimens. With the feeding without handling after becoming another teachable item. Etc

It promotes a discreet alternative of broader focus and awareness, it doesn't necessarily have to exclude handling but Includes other aspects Besides feeling the snakes, and these can be presented in a more memorable way. The snakes can be secured in containment when not displayed in the open diorama pen.
simus343
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Joined: March 30th, 2014, 1:16 pm
Location: Okaloosa ca, Fla.

Re: Rapid metabolism

Post by simus343 »

I ran across someone that had a picture of my male H plat from April. It was very convenient for figuring out what is going on with him currently. It seems that his growth rate accelerated and he has grown four inches in the past 3 months, faster than he has ever grown before. He is currently in shed. I believe it may be a growth-spurt as was one of my guesses.

I looked in his mouth and didn't notice flukes or anything else out of the ordinary. Could a growth-spurt be caused by chemical contamination? I elaborate on the circumstances at the bottom of this post.

Have burst growth-spurts ever been reported in the more commonly kept H. n. nascius or H. n. kennerlyi to anyone's knowledge? Or even H. platirhinos or H. simus for that matter? It seem unusual to me that a snake that is approximately 8 years old give or take a year would have such a growth spurt like this without a massive feeding regime increase. I only started his increase after I noticed the metabolism boost. He had obtained his new 32in. length by the time I noticed his weight loss.

What about other snake groups? Have adult growth-spurts been noted in crotalids, vipers, elapids, colubrids, boids, pythons, or any other groups I may have overlooked/not heard about?

Could a growth-spurt have been caused by chemical contamination? I don't collect all of my toads from exactly "clean" sources - wildlife including amphibians are protected on conservation land. Neighborhood areas tend to spray various poisons all over the place. Could a poison contracted from a toad's skin have an affect on the metabolic rate / cause a growth-spurt?
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Rapid metabolism

Post by Kelly Mc »

I have noticed growth spurts in the sub adult stage as the surge toward reproductive adulthood in many snakes and lizards. In snakes often accompanied by more feeding readiness behavior. Wanting to be fed more or continuing to forage after feeding. Some new owners report striking or behaviors they misinterprete as aggression.

But unless the animal is underfed or kept too hot or has another health factor, hunger folds are not a normative of this stage.
simus343
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Re: Rapid metabolism

Post by simus343 »

What about chemical poisoning like I mentioned? Could that cause the symptoms based on the type of chemical/poison?
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Rapid metabolism

Post by Kelly Mc »

Jeez I don't know about that. I usually assess the more commonly occurring possibilities first.

Have you ever encountered any animals that look emaciated in that area? Even though there is adequate food supply?

Is the area stewarded by any environmental agencies?

Accelerated growth would be kind of a big deal I would think
simus343
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Joined: March 30th, 2014, 1:16 pm
Location: Okaloosa ca, Fla.

Re: Rapid metabolism

Post by simus343 »

I collect my amphibians from around a golf-course community is why I ask (it is where I live at the moment). I have examined the feces for parasites under a microscope, I have checked inside the mouth for signs as well. Nothing. No fecal discoloration to show signs of liver or kidney damage. Unlike every terminally sick snake I have worked on in the past, my male Eastern Hog is still feeding as aggressively as he always has, no more no less. All other refused to eat or died immediately after eating (my male has been eating well for a month under current circumstances).

I have found emaciated racers and ribbon snakes in the area. The water snakes are all very bulky though. The cottonmouths also seem rather skinny though.

The area is not patrolled by any environmental agencies.

I'm thinking that if it is chemical in cause, the metabolic rate would have accelerated to try and metabolize and get rid of the poison. In doing so, perhaps the boost to metabolism has started to deteriorate the muscle mass / fat content as well?

About the same time as the issue was noted, I had taken a toad from a golf green. Usually I get my toads by the water edge but this one was up on the actual treated green. I wouldn't think there would be a chemical difference because of leaching and drainage. Hey, this might be something worth studying :shock:. Though, I would assume there is already something out there on golf course treatment and the effect on local amphibian populations.

My other two female H. platirhinos have both been receiving food from the same local and have shown no symptoms. I had been keeping the male and my mature female together as well. Only the male had this happen to him. I did separate my female out though just in case there is something contagious, and am treating it as such until I can 100% confirm otherwise.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Rapid metabolism

Post by Kelly Mc »

I dunno Simus. Its kind of a stretch. I'm tempted to make a meth lab joke but I don't want to be misread as flip. I know you care about this animal.

I'm no expert at toxicology but in my small understanding exposure usually thwarts development and the metabolic exacerbate that you theorize as the body trying to expel the toxins, it seems most reptiles lean toward bioaccumulation, not so much active excretion. They don't really have very efficient renal function compared to many other animals, they don't sweat, and their respiration is somewhat passive.

If I were you I would continue investigating.

Remember when you are looking at stool under magnification its helpful to prepare it in a float or a smear and you would be looking for eggs and oocysts, and immature forms not necessarily adult parasites. I hope you find out what's wrong. It would be great if you could go to a vet. Its not like its a surgical procedure or highly esoteric . General vets can do a fecal float on a snake and other exams. They can.
Kfen
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Re: Rapid metabolism

Post by Kfen »

Kelly Mc wrote: General vets can do a fecal float on a snake and other exams. They can.
Or they can send it to a lab which can. That seems to be the case by me. None of the local vets do their own fecals. I've tried to find a lab that I can just send my own samples to so far have been unsuccessful with the exception of Avian Biotech doing crypto tests.
Maybe this is a good business opportunity for someone in the reptile community with a parasite background/knowledge.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Rapid metabolism

Post by Kelly Mc »

Veterinarians can treat the snake empirically for parasites, the tables of dosages and drugs themselves available to them.

You can discuss going for a broad spectrum approach based on likely culprits.

Many herp people don't realize that although a general or companion practitioner may be unfamiliar with reptiles or species than maybe we critically expect they are knowledgeable in sciences and biological systems to a depth that is to be respected highly.
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