eggs splitting ? -update

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Kfen
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eggs splitting ? -update

Post by Kfen »

I have some bamboo rat snake eggs that are splitting (check out the pics to see what I mean). Anyone have this happen to them? Did they still hatch? Its been several days and hasn't seemed to get any worse. My guesses are that maybe the substrate was too wet and/or the eggs were poorly calcified. Anyone have any other suggestions on what could have caused it or how to rectify it?

Image

Image

Those are 2 different eggs. There is a third that seems normal so far.
VICtort
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Re: eggs splitting ?

Post by VICtort »

Yes, i have seen similar in other species of eggs. I am guessing too much water, over the years, I keep going dryer and dryer, say 1 part vermiculite to 0.8 water by weight, or dryer. I often just guess, quite likely dryer than that "formula".

What to do, it is amazing what will work. I would consider getting some of that "liquid bandage" at any pharmacy and paint it over the crack, it might prevent opportunistic molds or bacteria from attacking it. A guy in my old herp club told me he used some left over spackle from a pre-painting project on an egg, and it hatched after it was repaired and had actually been leaking fluids.

I have personally used the liquid band-aid and I would probably do that regime if that egg were under my care. Others may have a better idea. I have also heard of using various types of tape, such as bandage tape, or even a band-aid.

Good luck and let us know how it works out. BTW, I have sometimes taken eggs two thirds through incubation and put them in a new vermiculite bedding, as the old was too damp and I was having mold issues. It worked fine, consensus is to keep the eggs in the original orientation, perhaps make a pencil mark on top of each egg to keep them "UP".

I also have added a sheet of clean and dry paper towel to absorb some of the water in the incubation container, and replace it each day, until I think it is the correct humidity. Several ways to achieve the goal of perfect substrate. I prefer the coarse vermiculite when I can find it.

good luck, Vic
Kfen
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Re: eggs splitting ?

Post by Kfen »

Thanks for the reply. I did put a paper towel in there to absorb some moisture. Once I used regular old scotch tape on a tortoise egg that I cracked a small hole into prematurely that worked. I like the idea of the liquid bandage.

These types of things make me wonder about wild nests of all sorts of eggs. What happens when there is a very rainy period? or dry period? Do lots of nests fail? Or are females just that good at picking the right spots?
VICtort
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Re: eggs splitting ?

Post by VICtort »

Kfen,
I too wonder about egg laying success and site selection. I have only found a few clutches of reptile eggs in the wild over the years, and one of them had been dug up by a disc plough (Pituophis). A few clutches of Sceloporus found while digging in a vegetable garden... Soft shell turtle eggs dug up by an excavator on the canal bank.
A couple others in water meter boxes (I held up work on these meters for months until the eggs hatched...) BTW, those meter box eggs are in a fairly stable environment, dark, humid but not wet within, about 15-20" underground. Eggs not buried, just lying in situ.

Finding them is not common, and the egg shells and remains are hidden and/or recycled by natural processes. I would guess that losses of wild nests are quite common, based on the fact that so many other organisms have episodic events, and irregular recruitment of offspring. Good years, average years, and bad years...a common phenomenon. The fact that any hatchlings recruit into the adult population amazes me, given the formidable odds against it, and losses of nests are very common from predation and scavenging. Major weather events certainly would have an impact, but I have learned that about 20-30" underground is an amazingly stable environment, and that may be where a lot of successful nests are, much shallower in some areas/situations.

I do not know if this is fact or wild speculation, but I read somewhere that in Florida python stronghold, turtles seem to be hatching and recruiting the best in decades. Speculation is reducing the formerly staggering number of raccoon nest raiders may have allowed far more eggs to hatch. Can anyone verify? I know we have some informed python folks on this forum. I recall raccoons being outrageously abundant and bold (like bad youth gangs) in the Everglades area/park decades ago.

It took me years to understand (sort of?) the difference between humidity and dampness, and I think reptiles know the difference. I think they are skilled at finding hidden places, not necessarily damp, but that have optimum humidities.

I have never dried an egg out in captivity, but I have "drowned" a few. We seemingly are overly concerned about drying them out, but I rarely see that happen, and it can often be remedied if you check the eggs frequently. I now resist the temptation to add water without clear evidence it is needed.

So much we don't know about eggs even after years of herpetoculture. I have very high success with most Colubrid eggs, but I typically lose a few of my prized Drymarchon couperi (Indigos) eggs each year, and I have no idea why...many breeders report the same.

Have some of you found eggs/nests in the wild? How and where?
How have some of you herpetoculturalists dealt with cracked or compromised eggs?

Vic
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Kelly Mc
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Re: eggs splitting ?

Post by Kelly Mc »

Many years ago I was experimenting making incubators for small phelsuma eggs and I made one out of a metal film canister. I think that's what the container was - I found it in a box of disregards and a little grid fit in it that I set the eggs on and added water to the bottom.

I kept the eggs in the vivarium in the area they were found. When I checked them it was awkward and an egg rolled and cracked against the interior.

I was pretty bummed as I was enthusiastic to hatch them.

I carefully placed the egg on some crumpled Kleenex and got a chicken egg out of the refrigerator, cracked it and cut a little swath of membrane from the shell and patched it over the crack. I then painted the edges over with a tiny bit of spit.

The egg hatched - I think it was only about a week later but I do not know if it would have hatched anyway as I carefully examined it and there was no leakage etc.

But I felt terribly excited and triumphant and phoned the vet my family used while I was growing up, as well as a reptile vet I idolized, to tell, and he called me back! He was very happy and encouraging to me and I never forgot it.
Kfen
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Re: eggs splitting ?

Post by Kfen »

Sorry for the late reply, you brought up lots of questions/points and I wanted to touch on all of them. My responses/thoughts are sort of random so bear with me.

First- Kelly, you may have created the first "sim" incubator that is all the rage these days.

I have found Phelsuma eggs to be exceptionally hardy, having even rolled a few out of their hiding places. Which brings up another question: Everyone makes a big deal about keeping the top of the egg at the top, but is it always important? for every species? I have read that once the embryo attaches (in as little as 24 hours??), it can drown if overturned. But as I mentioned, I rolled Phelsuma eggs most likely after 24 hours, and have accidentally dug up snapping turtle eggs that got jostled around only to hatch out just fine. Anyone else turn over reptile eggs and either kill or hatch them?
It took me years to understand (sort of?) the difference between humidity and dampness, and I think reptiles know the difference.
That is an EXCELLENT point, one that doesn't only pertain to egg incubation, but to reptile husbandry as a whole. It is something I think a lot of people don't get, or don't pay attention to enough, myself included.

I have worked in herp conservation/consulting/research for several years so I do have some field experience regarding nesting. It is pretty much all with turtles though. (My snake work has been limited to ovoviviparous species) I have seen nests and/or nesting of painted, wood, snapping, bog, Blanding's, box, and diamond back terrapins. They all pretty much nest the same way. They dig a hole as deep as their back feet are long (sometimes just slightly deeper when their bodies form a depression) in open soil. Most tend to prefer recently disturbed soil if they can find it. The exception to this are bog turtles. They nest in sphagnum, other moss hummocks, or sedges. Another exception I have seen was with a mud or musk turtle. I found 2 eggs in what I am going to call a mammal burrow in the bank of a water body. There was a small opening on the surface so I could see down into it and the 2 eggs were just sitting on the floor of the burrow/tunnel.

I have been shown old nesting sites of northern pine snakes, and they were surprisingly shallow.
I found ringneck snake eggs under a board.
I have found a few five lined skinks with eggs- all under rocks.

You mentioned egg shells remaining hidden. That is something I found out by covering turtle nests and monitoring them for hatchlings. When nests hatch, the shells remain underground. It makes sense, but before I did that, whenever I found shells I would wonder if they were predated or hatched. Now I now anytime I find turtle shells on the surface, it is from predation.

One neat note about the nests I was covering. A bunch of female blandings turtles I was following nested in an unprotected cornfield. So I had to wait for the turtles to finish nesting, then dig up the eggs and rebury them in the nearby protected created nesting area. I found the best way to "play mama turtle" was to use a kitchen spoon to dig the new nests. Using the spoon I was able to replicate the shape of the chamber. I ended up with a 100% hatch rate for the 8 nests I moved- 88 hatchlings in total.

Predation takes an enormous toll on reptile eggs. Again most of my experience and knowledge is from turtles. There was one study of diamond back terrapins that had between 92 and 100 percent of nests predated depending on the year. My original question was more of how many nests fail because of being placed in the wrong spot, or because of weather.
I do not know if this is fact or wild speculation, but I read somewhere that in Florida python stronghold, turtles seem to be hatching and recruiting the best in decades. Speculation is reducing the formerly staggering number of raccoon nest raiders may have allowed far more eggs to hatch.
I had a discussion about this with some friends a few years ago. I had said I thought the pythons were going to be good for all small reptiles. Not only turtle eggs, but I bet there is an increase in small snakes as well, both egg laying and live bearing. Your question may be a good one to put up on the main forum to see if local people actually have any info on that- anecdotal or from a study.

Are your Drymarchon eggs definitely fertile and not hatching, or is fertility an issue?

Now for some pics to keep it interesting:

Snapping turtles hatching:
Image

Bog turtle nest with just a little moss removed:
Image

Bog turtle hatchlings:
Image

Blanding's turtle nesting:
Image

and another
Image
VICtort
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Re: eggs splitting ?

Post by VICtort »

Kfen, That is way cool to see these wild turtles nesting. Thanks for posting these uncommon photos. Saving nests from the corn field disc plough, that is a noble endeavor! Roughly how far away is the marsh/bog/ponds the adults live in?

Regarding the Drymarchon eggs, my pairs usually have relatively high fertility and fecundity (a female presented a record (?) clutch of 19 last March). However, I commonly lose one or two or three eggs from the clutch, and they often show no sign of development although they look like the eggs that eventually hatch after an arduous 120 day wait. Thus they may not be fertile or "strong"...and they fail after a month or so. I have another clutch of 13 this year that are the prettiest I have seen, the eggs that is. They are just text book, uniform in size and shape and color, it will be fun to see what hatches in the next few weeks.

Your comment about rolling or moving reptile eggs...consensus seems to be to avoid it. I think at some phases of incubation it may indeed be deleterious to the embryos, but at the beginning, it may not matter. I have seem some folks very cavalier and make no effort to maintain orientation when moving the eggs from nest box to incubator box, and I am not aware of any consequences. I once had to move eggs 1100 miles on the seat of my truck when moving, and they did just fine. Still, I try to keep them oriented as found, and suggest others do so, but it is not the end of the world if one should get moved early in the incubation in my experience.

What is the fate of the split eggs from the bamboo racers that started this thread?

Vic
Kfen
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Re: eggs splitting ?

Post by Kfen »

Roughly how far away is the marsh/bog/ponds the adults live in?
There is a complex of wetlands that the turtles move about throughout the season, some of which is very close to both the cornfield, and a manmade nesting area. However there is one turtle from a different wetland 900 meters away that shows up every year just to nest in either the cornfield or manmade nesting area. Blandings turtles are known wanderers.

I pretty much don't know anything about keeping Drymarchon, but I do know that there are not all that many couperi in captivity. Since you said it is a common problem among keepers, could it be related to poor genetic diversity?
What is the fate of the split eggs from the bamboo racers that started this thread?
I never got to the store to pick up liquid band aid like I planned. But they still seem to be developing without any problems. They are now about 50 days old, so I potentially only have a few weeks to go. I'll let you know if they hatch.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: eggs splitting ?

Post by Kelly Mc »

Hey ya Kfen a note about your comment regarding SIMS.. it was the neat little container that inspired using it like that but I discarded that method because the geckos I soon discovered were so prolific that I just let them lay in the environment. Some hatched, some got broken, and there was some mortality because I had to catch/attract my own fruit and other flies. I used that container once again same way for some green anolis but found deli cups - 2 fitted lip to lip were better because I could see inside and they needed greater micromanagement then just water - I used blue filter floss with the water level very close to the eggs.

I have never used a hovabator because making incubators is fun and taught me a lot about eggs.

I have generally, predominately used vermeculite for all other guys but set them on very coarse and airy - virtually perched with minimal contact. I have taken eggs out of moms brood boxes and lost track of which side is up and they hatched. When my eggs pip I put stuff in the incubator box for the neos to crawl under or climb onto, depending on the guys. I hatched a lot of Rhinoclemmys manni but no real wood turtles.
Kfen
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Re: eggs splitting ? -update

Post by Kfen »

So one of the splitting eggs actually started to leak. I thought it was going to get moldy and die but it didn't. A little less than a week after it leaked, it along with both other eggs hatched! I guess the theme of this thread and another recent one is good eggs are hardy. Here is a pic:

Image

While I'm at it here are some hatchling bamboo rats of a different flavor:

Image
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Kelly Mc
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Re: eggs splitting ? -update

Post by Kelly Mc »

Those are Yummy! Congratulations Kfen
simus343
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Re: eggs splitting ? -update

Post by simus343 »

Those are some purty lil baby snake you got there! Congrats! My snake eggs should start hatching in about 7 days now, can't wait! I've had quite a few "troubles" besides just splitting so seeing a no-maybe-yes story brings hope haha :beer:.
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BillMcGighan
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Re: eggs splitting ? -update

Post by BillMcGighan »

Gorgeous kids, Kevin.

Is this your first year with these Asians??? My follow up is "if you bred those before, did the eggs look normal in past years?"


And, probably not related, but several years ago I had an Grayband KS that laying eggs two years in a row that had various translucent spots, not the solid white. Other females' eggs were fine.

I supplemented calcium into her mice (even feeding her an occasional hatchling ratsnake) and her eggs became normal.
I never went the extra step to experiment by taking away the supplemented calcium, so maybe it was a factor, maybe not.
It just seemed a good try when you think how many lizards Graybands eat in the wild.
Kfen
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Re: eggs splitting ? -update

Post by Kfen »

Thanks everyone!

Bill, I did think about the calcium thing. I think I will supplement to be on the safe side. This is my first time with them and this was her first clutch as well. She just laid another clutch so we will see how they look when I incubate a little drier.
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