Temporary Coomunal tank Question

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simus343
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Temporary Coomunal tank Question

Post by simus343 » September 26th, 2014, 4:47 am

Is there any safety issues, primarily regarding the housing of 1 Eastern Hognose at 30 inches, 1 corn snakes at 29 inches and 1 Western Hognose at 18 inches all in the same tank?

This is temporary, I needed a ready-to-go tank for a rescue orange-yellow-brown patterned Eastern Hognose female that I intend to keep for breeding with my melanistic male. My female that I acquired earlier this year is just a little juvenile so won't be able to breed for a few more years.

The Western Hognose and Corn Snake have already been housed together safely for a little over a year now. Due to someone else breaking my corn snake cage's lid and making it escapable I had to react fast and put my corn with my western hog. Turns out they actually do extremely well together in the 15 gallon terrarium that they were in. For the Eastern messing with the other two I have transported them before communally, but there were only together for about a collective 5 hours.

Cage temps all have hot spot at 86 degree F. Substrate is the exact same. I don't do any in cage feeding and remove snakes into separate enclosures to feed and then let them wait in a dark box for 20-30 minutes before putting the dark box, open, back into the primary enclosure. The only real difference is my Eastern's cage, being large, has more above ground hiding opportunities.

So main thing is, with this knowledge, is there any foreseeable issue with moving them, the corn and western, into a 40 gallon for 2-3 weeks with a 30 inch male Eastern Hognose?

If the answer should be "no," could an explanation be left as to why please? Doesn't have to be long, can be short, but I'd still like it. Reason is, is I don't see any threat in keeping them together for a few weeks, and if there is one I would like to know what it is instead of being kept guessing haha.

Thanks!

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chris_mcmartin
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Re: Temporary Coomunal tank Question

Post by chris_mcmartin » September 26th, 2014, 5:48 am

Have you considered moving one or more snakes into their own Rubbermaid-style tub with secure lid, if it's only temporary? Obviously the lighting/heating would be difficult if not impossible, but if it's for a short period it shouldn't be a problem.

I'm thinking tubs in the 5-15 dollar range, so as not to break the bank.

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BillMcGighan
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Re: Temporary Coomunal tank Question

Post by BillMcGighan » September 26th, 2014, 6:30 am

Mixing those species shouldn't have direct problems, but I have to mention again that new animals introduced into a collection, even temporarily, from wild or captivity, carry the risk of parasites and worse.


Chris's suggestion is worth noting.

Walmart and some dollar stores carry these type containers for $4-6.
Drilling or burning air holes is good for larger animals, but not urgent, since the lids are not air tight. They do seal well enough that even hatchlings can't escape when locked down.

Afterwards, they make good, stackable organizers for the car. I keep one always in the car for various small, but important field items, such as field guides, magnifying glass, mirror, backup flashlight, ethanol vials, hemostats, batteries, etc., and it can double as a rescue container.



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The lid can be a safer way of corraling for a frantic snake like a pyg, for taking pictures.


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AndyO'Connor
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Re: Temporary Coomunal tank Question

Post by AndyO'Connor » September 26th, 2014, 7:48 am

I don't think there's a huge risk of housing them together temporarily, other than the possible parasite risk as mentioned. I'm more distracted by a collective 47 inches of two snakes living in a 15 gallon. Especially two colubrids. There's no way they can have their own space, and thermoregulate properly. The hog by itself is probably acceptable in a 15 gallon, but a nearly 30 inch corn would probably live a more comfortable healthy life in a bigger tank. I'm not saying small enclosures cause unhealthy snakes, as people keep and breed snakes in shoebox size rack systems, but it's just my opinion that if you are going to use clear glass enclosures that the snakes feel exposed, so more room for hiding and multiple thermoregulation spots and gradient may reduce stress, and increase the chance of a "happy" snake.

simus343
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Re: Temporary Coomunal tank Question

Post by simus343 » September 26th, 2014, 12:25 pm

Yeah I have some plastic containers, and I was going to use those, but I accidentally misplaced my water dishes haha. I know they are around somewhere, so once I find them I may change them to that as said -- I have 4 ExoTerra breeder boxes, clear container with black lids, 1 main hatch, and 2 feeding hatches.

My next free time project is going to be making a home made cage for the corn that allows good crawl space and climb space. Likely going to be done by end of this year, at least that's my goal.

The snakes are parasite free, I check them quite frequently. I have no reason to believe for internal parasites as I weigh them and their weights remain fairly constant withing a few grams, getting larger over time obviously.

As far as the new snake I have it in a different room for now, and intend to clean it out after I acclimate it.

I will be sure to keep measuring weights and inspecting them to keep track of potential parasites.

For the cage size the western is the length of the cage, oddly, perfectly. He is 18 inches, the cage is 18in. long 18in. wide for floor space dimensions. The corn does need a larger cage, as said its old cage was broken, so I'm going to custom build a new one for it.

Thanks for responses.

Also on this topic one more thing, slightly off / slightly on topic. The snake is thin. Very thin. It's a robust weight in hand, certainly not a light weight, but it has for more skin folding than my male that has been captive for several years. Is this the result of dehydration or lack of food, or both? I just got it yesterday, as a rescue from a house where it may have met its untimely end, and it has fresh water and 2 small Anaxyrus terrestris with it. I would like to know so I know what I should focus more on and keep closer track of, without badgering and bothering it too much as it acclimates. It has already eaten one sexually mature male Anaxyrus terrestris, and has 2 sub-adults with it. I will be hunting tonight to find a few large more well-rounded toads to offer it as well.

Tamara D. McConnell
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Re: Temporary Coomunal tank Question

Post by Tamara D. McConnell » September 26th, 2014, 9:19 pm

Afterwards, they make good, stackable organizers for the car. I keep one always in the car for various small, but important field items, such as field guides, magnifying glass, mirror, backup flashlight, ethanol vials, hemostats, batteries, etc., and it can double as a rescue container.
Bill, this is such a good idea! I am going to do this. Seems like it would work better than my current system, which involves pillowcases and assorted random herp gear strewn all over the car interior.

Jimi
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Re: Temporary Coomunal tank Question

Post by Jimi » September 30th, 2014, 11:37 am

Quote:
Afterwards, they make good, stackable organizers for the car. I keep one always in the car for various small, but important field items, such as field guides, magnifying glass, mirror, backup flashlight, ethanol vials, hemostats, batteries, etc., and it can double as a rescue container.

Bill, this is such a good idea! I am going to do this. Seems like it would work better than my current system, which involves pillowcases and assorted random herp gear strewn all over the car interior.
It is - it's a compact little "go box" you can just keep your gear in & then grab from the house, to go herping. Plus while you're cruising, or going to your field spot, it keeps everything from bouncing & sliding around on the car seat, flying onto the floor when braking etc. And when you get home - voila! Again, grab & go - inside. No policing up all your crap that's strew all over the car. And no frantic searching around the house while you're antsy to get out the door - all your gear is right there in your "go box".

Kinda like a firefighter's "red bag". Grab & go.

Very tidy!

Cheers,
Jimi

simpleyork
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Re: Temporary Coomunal tank Question

Post by simpleyork » October 1st, 2014, 4:36 pm

for water dishes I use the plastic margarine, butter, sour cream, and cottage cheese containers, Never ending FREEish supply the way my kids go through the stuff

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Don Becker
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Re: Temporary Coomunal tank Question

Post by Don Becker » October 2nd, 2014, 4:58 am

Obviously the lighting/heating would be difficult if not impossible
Not difficult at all if you have the right size tub. I kept plenty of snakes in latching tubs just sitting on a shelf, with an intellitemp heat map under one side of the tub. In some cases, I used heating pads meant for people, but it's hard to find them without an auto-off on them now. For lighting, just stick em near a window :P

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chris_mcmartin
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Re: Temporary Coomunal tank Question

Post by chris_mcmartin » October 2nd, 2014, 2:23 pm

Don Becker wrote:
Obviously the lighting/heating would be difficult if not impossible
Not difficult at all if you have the right size tub. I kept plenty of snakes in latching tubs just sitting on a shelf, with an intellitemp heat map under one side of the tub. In some cases, I used heating pads meant for people, but it's hard to find them without an auto-off on them now. For lighting, just stick em near a window :P
You're right...in my mind I was thinking "non-standard" tubs (at least, compared to normal "herp-suitable" tubs)...like the big "Roughneck" style tubs (opaque, sometimes unusual floor shape, etc.), in an effort to keep costs down (although a lot of my lizards live in fairly cheap clear tubs).

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Temporary Coomunal tank Question

Post by Kelly Mc » October 3rd, 2014, 7:43 am

Personally I cant assess tubs as being suitable for permanent housing.

Ive known of animals of many types, being permanently housed in unsuitable environs - but the motive of keepers and goals of captivity vary.

Simus Ive done some interesting investigations with airflow and ventilation, using smoke bombs and dry ice that I will share when I document it with better photos, but would be happy to discuss with anyone curious .

What I will say here is that holes drilled in plastic, even when they seem abundant are never as permeable as a plastic grill, or an inlay of a vent piece or conventional screening. Which is another intrinsic obstacle, as snakes are more prone to press and rub when in tubs, because of height realities and other factors.

The stale, ammonia laden air unescapable, as tubs are often cleaned on a "weekly schedule" (hopefully) then when the snake has defecated.

simus343
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Re: Temporary Coomunal tank Question

Post by simus343 » October 3rd, 2014, 9:22 am

Indeed, Kelly. I am aware that that is an issue, which is why I am hesitant to use modified plastic containers, unless screening is installed. However, due to the huge amount of rescues that are received where I work despite that we do NOT want to be receiving any reptiles not native to Florida or Alabama, we have many excess reptile designed terrariums. I was allowed to borrow two of them, one for my western, one for my corn. Each is 20 gallons.

The original hognose which I acquired a week ago, and resulted in this question, is currently in a different room and that cage will likely be bleached, unused for a while, and washed out again, before its next inhabitant as there appears to be parasites causing the snake to be so emaciated.

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Don Becker
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Re: Temporary Coomunal tank Question

Post by Don Becker » October 9th, 2014, 7:01 am

I've never had an issue with air flow in the tubs. There is never a stagnant smell in the tubs. Screened cages are also harder to maintain proper humidity levels in. The plastic tubs hold in moisture better, which, in the case of snakes like simus, is a big issue. I don't think there is any perfect enclosure. There will be pros and cons to any setup. The only perfect setup is in the wild, and even then, I would say there are issues lately :P

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Don Becker
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Re: Temporary Coomunal tank Question

Post by Don Becker » October 9th, 2014, 7:03 am

I guess maybe one reason I don't have issue with air flow is the way I do my vent holes. I have holes on the sides and tops. With heat provided under the tubs, it may cause the warm air to rise up and out of the top while drawing new air in from the sides, the same way attics are ventilated in my area.

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Temporary Coomunal tank Question

Post by Kelly Mc » October 9th, 2014, 9:48 pm

Someone had given me this wood cage, and I turned it over on the side moved the hinges to the door to get what you describe. I cant stack another encl on top of it, but the air is so much fresher with that dynamic. Nobody in it yet im just seeing how it warms up and breathes. I think i will put my calking in it

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