ID Help for albino Lampropeltis

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aliceinwl
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ID Help for albino Lampropeltis

Post by aliceinwl »

I haven't posted in ages, but a friend of mine has some albino Lampropeltis of unknown pedigree and we're trying to figure out what they are. He was told they were possibly albino L. alterna, but L. thayeri looks like it could also be a possibility. Neither of us are too up on our designer snakes so any insight as to whether these are L. alterna x ruthveni or L. thayeri x ruthveni (or something else altogether?) would be appreciated.

Image
ID? by aliceinwl1, on Flickr

Image
ID? by aliceinwl1, on Flickr

Thanks is advance!
Alice
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Cole Grover
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Re: ID Help for albino Lampropeltis

Post by Cole Grover »

"Sina-corn". Lampropeltis triangulum sinaloae x Pantherophis guttatus.
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aliceinwl
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Re: ID Help for albino Lampropeltis

Post by aliceinwl »

Thanks, this seems to match the pattern somewhat, but the head shape really seems consistent with something in the Lampropeltis mexicana complex? They came from a pretty high-end L. thayeri collection, the second guy was purported to be L. alterna (no idea if the first is the same). Doing some searches, both of these albinos seem to be produced by crossing with L. ruthveni. Pattern seems like it could be consistent with the two below if they're more L. alterna or L. thayeri than L. ruthveni, but I have no idea how to go about distinguishing.

I've never really dealt with designer snakes before so if anyone knows of any good spots to cross post these guys, it would be appreciated.

-Alice
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Kelly Mc
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Re: ID Help for albino Lampropeltis

Post by Kelly Mc »

I dont know much about morphs but the heads look mexicana complex to me. The second snake if looked at and considered transversely like a photo negative, has what me and a friend call a "sock head" marking in alterna, where its solid black often triangular exactly on the headplates like your guy has, only yours of course white. The other guy has peppering that reminds me of thayeri. Thats all i got.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: ID Help for albino Lampropeltis

Post by Kelly Mc »

I never thought to look it up, but apparently the Sock Head thing is used by the real morph guys to mean something else, but that solid head mark (ie patch) is what makes me think of the ones on normal alterna. At least the ones i like best.
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Cole Grover
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Re: ID Help for albino Lampropeltis

Post by Cole Grover »

Alice,

There are NO amelanistic Lampropeltis alterna or Lampropeltis leonis ("thayeri"). Whomever told your friend this is wrong, flat out. These animals are both hybrids, both probably containing at least a partial Lampropeltis heritage. They might be 3 or 4 or 6 way crosses. In short, there's absolutely no way to be sure what they are without speaking to the breeder. This is exactly the problem with hybrids and the reason so many are against them. These animals could, certainly, have some mexicana, leonis ("thayeri"), ruthveni influence in them. I see none of that in the first animal, however, and it screams, "Lampropeltis triangulum x Pantherophis guttatus" to me. "Butterfly" blotches with thick borders are indicative of P. guttatus. The blunt head, short snout, and red markings on the head say, "Pacific versant L. triangulum" loud and clear. But... there's no way to know. I do see more Lampropeltis leonis ("Thayeri") influence in the second animal. The broad temporal region and orange suffusion are both seen on what some of the hybridizers are calling "clown kings" and "pastel kings" in the trade.

The amel. gene in these critters could have come from Lampropeltis ruthveni, L. triangulum nelsoni, or Pantherophis guttatus (amongst other things). If the animals are clutchmates, I stand by my original assessment.
aliceinwl wrote:They came from a pretty high-end L. thayeri collection, the second guy was purported to be L. alterna (no idea if the first is the same)
Hmmm... I'm not so sure about that. I know most of the handful of people out there with top-notch Lampro collections (including the mexicana-complex guys) and those animals didn't come from any of them. In fact, neither of those is really a "thayeri", and that second animal is absolutely, 100% NOT an alterna. It may have some alterna in its genetic background, but it's not an alterna.

I'm sorry for the semi-rant. Please understand that this sort of thing is as frustrating to us careful breeders who maintain and pass on good lineage information as it is to you and your friend who just acquired a couple of "mystery" snakes and will, in all likelihood, never find a definitive answer. Again, the only way to figure this out is to contact the person who produced this to begin with. Then, try to ascertain his/her powers of memory and identification.

-Cole
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Kelly Mc
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Re: ID Help for albino Lampropeltis

Post by Kelly Mc »

Yes the whole hybrid and crosses thing is very upsetting. Even albinism being in the forefront of cb gene pools is nauseating to me, personally. I didnt mean for my casual and unenlightened suggestion of alterna head patches to be a pointed contrare to your post, Cole.

As for knowing everybody who breeds or keeps certain genre of herps, i know a japenese guy who for decades has maintained a colony of burmese tortoises and a collection of Trimeresurus and nobody on any forums or "in the industry trade" knows him at all. :shock:
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justinm
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Re: ID Help for albino Lampropeltis

Post by justinm »

The second snake looks like a Klingon to me. The head is so messed up looking. Hybridizers worry me, and concern me. Issues like this come up and no one knows what to call them, or what to breed them too. I say nothing. I've kept Thayeri and Mex Mex for years, and I wouldn't call either snake a Mex complex animal. Maybe vaguely partially but not pure, not albino. These are unfortunate monsters of the pet trade.
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Cole Grover
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Re: ID Help for albino Lampropeltis

Post by Cole Grover »

Kelly Mc wrote:As for knowing everybody who breeds or keeps certain genre of herps, i know a japenese guy who for decades has maintained a colony of burmese tortoises and a collection of Trimeresurus and nobody on any forums or "in the industry trade" knows him at all.
Yep. I know plenty of those guys, too. Some of the "best" collections aren't well known to the masses.
Kelly Mc wrote:the whole hybrid and crosses thing is very upsetting
Boy howdy... You and I are very often on the same page, I think, Kelly.

-Cole
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Kelly Mc
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Re: ID Help for albino Lampropeltis

Post by Kelly Mc »

Im glad you came back and responded to my tentative and admittedly half baked input, Cole. Your details were important to hear/read.

Who knows how many poor guys are floating around out there in the hobby. So many in less responsible hands i intuit, than the OP.

There is a difference between Herpetoculture and Herp Entrepreneurship. But the two terms have seem to become synonymous. This i think is troubling to all of us on this thread.
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Cole Grover
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Re: ID Help for albino Lampropeltis

Post by Cole Grover »

Kelly Mc wrote:There is a difference between Herpetoculture and Herp Entrepreneurship. But the two terms have seem to become synonymous. This i think is troubling to all of us on this thread.
So much truth, here.
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