Herbivorous lizard diet and gout

Captive care and husbandry.

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KevinS
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Herbivorous lizard diet and gout

Post by KevinS »

I was hoping to get a dialog started concerning the diet of uromastyx and chuckwallas in captivity. While conventional wisdom is that these are almost strictly herbivorous lizards (and my limited knowledge of the publications on their gut contents seems to confirm this), they go nuts for live insects although it is commonly recommended that these not be offered for fear of causing gout from too much animal protein. I have read of others offering live insects and even pinky mice with apparent success and these individuals claim that if proper basking temperatures are provided and the lizards are not dehydrated, gout is not a concern (the implication being that low temperatures and dehydration are the main causes of gout in captivity).

Given the reactions to insects that I've personally seen these lizards exhibit, it seems odd that dietary studies do not indicate a more omnivorous diet in nature since they obviously love bugs. So I can understand the inclination to offer live prey since it elicits such an enthusiastic response, but I don't know that anyone has used such a diet for these lizards long enough to show that it doesn't cause long term problems. Conversely, I don't know that those following the status quo have adequately proven that a more omnivorous diet is necessarily a recipe for disaster, especially considering the very dry conditions most people keep these lizards at potentially acting as a confounding variable (providing a humid burrow replica doesn't appear to be common practice with these). So, what do you guys think?
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Herbivorous lizard diet and gout

Post by Kelly Mc »

I always consider gut content data on any animal a special gift, and like to align my feeding practices within the findings.
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umop apisdn
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Re: Herbivorous lizard diet and gout

Post by umop apisdn »

Well, I can't really comment on the lizards you mentioned, but I just ran into a case of gout with one of my Uroplatus offspring. Unfortunately, practically nothing is published about diet of these geckos, much less nutritional balance. However, sudden shifts in health are not uncommon among the people that keep them.

So a gecko I hatched out about a year ago became lethargic, and when I went for an assist-feed, I noticed tiny white spots on the tongue. Ends up those were the uric acid crystals depositing in the mucous membranes. Unfortunately, it was downhill from there.

These geckos are insectivores, though there might be the occasional small vertebrate taken as prey. I've always dusted with Rep-Cal (w/ D3) and Herptivite. However, even though the products I had at the time were still safely distant from expiration, I bought new tubs of each supplement. Still waiting to see how the others react, but from what I have heard from a zoo person, gout is pretty enigmatic in Uroplatus]. Occasional animal will die from it, others raised in exact same conditions are never affected. The real difficulty comes in the fact that I had just started feeding crickets from a new supplier a couple of months ago. I've also changed the gut-loading cricket feed. I wish I had the patience to single out what could have been the causal factor, but I can't sit back and wait for more geckos to become symptomatic, since there's no know treatment for them.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Herbivorous lizard diet and gout

Post by Kelly Mc »

Quality control and cryptic corner cutting in pet products, and reptile products in particular is a very interesting arena.

I have been using certain brands for years but more and more feel more comfortable going outside the pet market industry to resource those more regulated, especially for animals I regard sensitive.

Mortar and pestle.
dbh
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Re: Herbivorous lizard diet and gout

Post by dbh »

KevinS,

I am not sure what information you want about gout but I can confirm that it will kill young Chuckwallas. It is a very complex issue when dealing with omnivores in general and lizards in particular. That tremendous food response by the neonates for live bugs I am sure is there for a reason, they need more protein and will get all they can in the wild. In captivity it is way to easy to overfeed them the food item they want - bugs. I watched a complete cohort of hatchling Sauromalus hispidus die from gout decades ago, among other species.
Currently, when raising omnivorous lizards we limit the amount of protein items and fill the lizards up with greens. I guess it boils down to moderation, the kids want bugs and probably need some bugs, the adults, not so much. The question is when to cut them back to a bare minimum or none at all.

David Heckard
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Herbivorous lizard diet and gout

Post by Kelly Mc »

Great info above about a rarely talked about lizard - and the details about the gout in young ones qualifies as priceless.

As for uros I have not found any reason to include animal protien - and this includes sub A (mostly)mali, nijer, and a couple egypticus hatchlings that i recieved from Industrial Reptile supply Co. when i used to work with them. Staple was dandilion greens and i would give them softened mashed yams for pleasure calories. I got good growth on a herbivorous diet with typical bellies and softly rounded contours. I may if memory is correct - tossed a few waxworms on the salad from time to time on an odd impulse of delight , but no crickets.

The thing is many animals, mammals, birds and reptiles, and - our own species - are naturally attracted to fats. We like it. There may be a caloric impetus to it, but it is an almost universal favor. Other food characteristics like sweetness - depending on a species taste sensory capacities will also attract and garner craving. Crickets have delicious lipids not found in greens and movement is a broad cue.

Tortoises love corn but it isnt part of their diet in nature and they dont need it. But they go crazy for it, making it an excellent material for concealing meds or viramin A etc.
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regalringneck
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Re: Herbivorous lizard diet and gout

Post by regalringneck »

... i kept chucks outside for years here in phoenix and also noted their affinity for the mealworms i tossed in for the other lizards, the chucks scarfed them up, adults & juveniles, they made lotsa babies, and despite being adults when captured; lived for a decade or more until i finally gave them away as pets. A quick search didnt come up w/ a decent .jpg from those 35 mm daze ... but heres one we dont see to often ... iggy porn, tho iguanas (& Umas) were way harder to keep alive for more than a year or so, and the few baby igs produced didnt seem to do well, should probably review my notes, but the above was apparent ...

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... im glad i havent experienced gout, i hear it can be hell ... edit; i havent read montanucci's chuck care paper for a long time, but saw it in my sauromalus folder if anyone needs a copy...
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Nshepard
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Re: Herbivorous lizard diet and gout

Post by Nshepard »

Kelly Mc wrote:...but more and more feel more comfortable going outside the pet market industry to resource those more regulated, especially for animals I regard sensitive.

Mortar and pestle.
A little outside of this subject, but this is important to point out! Think outside of the box (reptile products), many times you'll find better products for cheaper. For awhile I was using a multi-vitamin designed for Children (human, not python), and it seemingly worked well until I found a cheaper reptile product that covered everything I wanted (which I am unhappy with and will no longer use when I run out of it).
KevinS wrote:I was hoping to get a dialog started concerning the diet of uromastyx...
I can only speak on my limited work experience with this group, but we occasionally fed adults live insects. It was not part of the regular feeding regime that was administered by volunteers but staff did occasionally offer protein (mainly superworms and crickets). We had three and all were long lived captives. One died right before I left and it was due to gout (crystalline like structures throughout the animal). Unfortunately, I can't tell you if the animal developed gout due to the feeding regime practiced under my time there or it earlier on the animals were fed much more protein, I just don't know.
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