Mussuranas amongst us

Captive care and husbandry.

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regalringneck
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Mussuranas amongst us

Post by regalringneck »

... looks like my naughty clelia have been watching dirty movies agin ...

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1 w/ a ringneck, 1 w/o & 1 partial ringed w/ nice red ventrals :beer:
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Scott Waters
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us

Post by Scott Waters »

You mentioned the female laying eggs as the others were hatching. Mine do that as well. Their timing is interesting. The first year it happened I didn't think much of it, but it seems to happen every time they double or triple clutch. Cool species, and very prolific!

scott
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regalringneck
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us

Post by regalringneck »

That is interesting you have had the same experience Scott, before she was loaned out to breed, she laid 2-3 clutches of infertile eggs, so im thinkin she's basically a "chicken snake" : }
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lateralis
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us

Post by lateralis »

so im thinkin she's basically a "chicken snake" : }
...just like her papa lol....The two I hatched out were similar, one with ring, the other without.
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Sam Bacchini
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us

Post by Sam Bacchini »

I'm curious about your use of the scientific name Clelia clelia rather than Boiruna maculata. I know Boiruna maculata used to be considered a synonym of Clelia clelia, but they are now (as I understand it) two separate species. The main point of my question being do you actually have Clelia clelia, or are you just referring to Boiruna maculata by their old name? If you do, that would be cool, since I don't believe there are many true Clelia clelia around in the U.S.
rsmith
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us

Post by rsmith »

Hey Gila-91, I thought Clelia cleaia hatchlings were all red with a yellow ring behind the head.
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Sam Bacchini
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us

Post by Sam Bacchini »

rsmith wrote:Hey Gila-91, I thought Clelia cleaia hatchlings were all red with a yellow ring behind the head.
Now that you say that I believe you are right.
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regalringneck
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us

Post by regalringneck »

... howdies all, I have always tended to be a "lumper" & generally prefer to resist changes to taxonomy, ive found if i holdout long enough as i did w/ tortoises, my old nomenclature sometimes comes full circle witness Gopherus : }
I dont know what baby central american Clelia look like, the red ones ive seen pix of seem to have been labeled C scytalina or something similar ?
Mine are the far southern Clelia (Uruguay-Argentina).
Word to the wise tho., these things develop unbelievable feeding responses, even w/ handling, always use a hook to initiate contact as no one knows what a feeding bite might entail, and the several necropsies ive done, indicate massive internal hemorrhage.

Here's a happy momma receiving a DoR atrox.

Image
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gbin
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us

Post by gbin »

Here's a C. clelia juvenile I found in Tikal National Park, Guatemala (though I don't know whether the name has been changed since I took the picture over 15 years ago):

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Gerry
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regalringneck
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us

Post by regalringneck »

...holy smokes Dr B. ... thats one beautiful shot, any more ....pant pant ... the heavy band is so micrurid like ... dare i say mimic ?
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regalringneck
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us

Post by regalringneck »

.. i spoze on a more serious note; just exactly how does one go identifying such a beast anyway, did you need a key?
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gbin
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us

Post by gbin »

Thanks for the kind words, John! I do have plenty more Tikal herp photos, but unfortunately the one I posted above is the only C. clelia shot that I've digitized and the others I took of that species are all still 35mm slides. I really need to dig my slide scanner out of storage one of these days and see if it still works...

Those juveniles do look like particularly robust, unusually colored Micrurus spp. (or maybe giant Ninia sebae? ;) ), and I'd bet you're right that they're enjoying some benefit from mimicry while they're still small enough for other critters to hassle them (if memory serves, the specimen depicted was upwards of 20" in length), but there were a number of tells as to their true identity. When I found that snake, the first thing apparent to me was how large its eyes were relative to its size, like a neonate's would be (because it was still just a youngster, of course, despite its size) and rather unlike Micrurus' tiny eyes. Once in hand the creamy white chin and venter really stood out, too. After that I suppose one could check to see whether it had loreal scales, which I understand Clelia almost always have and Micrurus lack, but I don't actually recall doing that. I have to admit, too, that I was greatly aided in identifying it by the fact that I'd encountered an exhilaratingly large adult :shock: a few nights before, and so the species was still looming equally large in my thoughts.

Gerry
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lateralis
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us

Post by lateralis »

Heres another Black Swan...
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ratsnakehaven
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us

Post by ratsnakehaven »

John, have you figured out, yet, why those things look so much like ringnecks?

TC
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regalringneck
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us

Post by regalringneck »

Holas Terry, how goes the good life? No i havent reconciled that "coincidence" there are several behavioral similarities between these two as well. Heres an oddity tho, the smell of the venom of a frightened heloderm is a musky fruity unmistakeable smell, unlike anything else, to my nose ... except the smell of a frightened Clelia, but in the latter case i think its originating from their harmless orifice, but mebbe not!

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ratsnakehaven
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us

Post by ratsnakehaven »

regalringneck wrote:Holas Terry, how goes the good life? No i havent reconciled that "coincidence" there are several behavioral similarities between these two as well. Heres an oddity tho, the smell of the venom of a frightened heloderm is a musky fruity unmistakeable smell, unlike anything else, to my nose ... except the smell of a frightened Clelia, but in the latter case i think its originating from their harmless orifice, but mebbe not!

Image

Hola, senior!

Life is good as usual. Just a few bumps. Exciting things to pursue here in s. AZ... :beer:

Interesting info about the gila. Since I don't ever see mussuranas, I'll have to check gilas closer if possible. I saw about 1/2 doz. this season, but none smelled to my knowledge. Maybe I should try getting them defensive, but alas, they are protected, so they'll have to make perfume on their own.

Ringnecks are always interesting, but they aren't as easy to find in AZ as they were in MI (so long ago..heheh). Besides similarity in appearance to Clelia, I think there are some other similarities. Don't know about the venom, but the fact they love to eat other snakes compares very well. I think the Regal's venom is pretty potent and they don't seem afraid of any other snake of like size, of course. It's amazing how large a prey item they can put down for such a thin snake. I still wonder what the link is bt. ringnecks and mussuranas. Maybe genetics will help someday.

Good to know you're still active and studying interesting species....

TC
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dery
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us

Post by dery »

How do you make dor's safe for herps to eat??
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regalringneck
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us

Post by regalringneck »

... always ... get em off to the side of the road 1'st : }
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dery
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us

Post by dery »

regalringneck wrote:... always ... get em off to the side of the road 1'st : }
Is that all it takes?? should they be fresh or something also before feeding them to a pet? :?
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ratsnakehaven
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us

Post by ratsnakehaven »

Dery, if you think the road kill will be harmful to your pet snake for some reason, then don't use it. If it's too far gone it probably won't make a good meal.

Here's a night snake gobbling up a YoY longnose snake DOR....
Image

Many snakes eat other snakes, and some eat many different kinds of other snakes.

TC
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dery
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us

Post by dery »

ratsnakehaven wrote:Dery, if you think the road kill will be harmful to your pet snake for some reason, then don't use it. If it's too far gone it probably won't make a good meal.

Here's a night snake gobbling up a YoY longnose snake DOR....
Image

Many snakes eat other snakes, and some eat many different kinds of other snakes.

TC
Okay I think i know what to look for now. I was just curious.Animals i have are better on veggies, mice, small lizards, and insects. Not good dor. I have let them nibble on certain plants w/o pesticides on them in my yard.
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Joseph S.
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us

Post by Joseph S. »

would parasite transmission be an issue at al?
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ratsnakehaven
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us

Post by ratsnakehaven »

Joseph S. wrote:would parasite transmission be an issue at al?

Yes, I consider that. Most of the experiments I've done with snakes have to do with wild caught snakes that I release later anyway. Some that I keep take their chances, such as my female green rat and a couple kings, but I've never had a problem with mites or disease, not that there aren't any out there. I think it's a lot easier to bring mites or disease into one's collection from a purchased or gifted animal. I always quarantine new animals.

One reason I'm anxious to get captive born green rats and kings is so that I won't have to worry about the transmission of mites or disease. That always has to be a consideration, especially if you have very valuable pets.

I would also be careful feeding wild plant life to my animals... ;)

TC
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