... looks like my naughty clelia have been watching dirty movies agin ...
1 w/ a ringneck, 1 w/o & 1 partial ringed w/ nice red ventrals
Mussuranas amongst us
Moderator: Scott Waters
- Scott Waters
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us
You mentioned the female laying eggs as the others were hatching. Mine do that as well. Their timing is interesting. The first year it happened I didn't think much of it, but it seems to happen every time they double or triple clutch. Cool species, and very prolific!
scott
scott
- regalringneck
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us
That is interesting you have had the same experience Scott, before she was loaned out to breed, she laid 2-3 clutches of infertile eggs, so im thinkin she's basically a "chicken snake" : }
Re: Mussuranas amongst us
...just like her papa lol....The two I hatched out were similar, one with ring, the other without.so im thinkin she's basically a "chicken snake" : }
- Sam Bacchini
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us
I'm curious about your use of the scientific name Clelia clelia rather than Boiruna maculata. I know Boiruna maculata used to be considered a synonym of Clelia clelia, but they are now (as I understand it) two separate species. The main point of my question being do you actually have Clelia clelia, or are you just referring to Boiruna maculata by their old name? If you do, that would be cool, since I don't believe there are many true Clelia clelia around in the U.S.
Re: Mussuranas amongst us
Hey Gila-91, I thought Clelia cleaia hatchlings were all red with a yellow ring behind the head.
- Sam Bacchini
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us
Now that you say that I believe you are right.rsmith wrote:Hey Gila-91, I thought Clelia cleaia hatchlings were all red with a yellow ring behind the head.
- regalringneck
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us
... howdies all, I have always tended to be a "lumper" & generally prefer to resist changes to taxonomy, ive found if i holdout long enough as i did w/ tortoises, my old nomenclature sometimes comes full circle witness Gopherus : }
I dont know what baby central american Clelia look like, the red ones ive seen pix of seem to have been labeled C scytalina or something similar ?
Mine are the far southern Clelia (Uruguay-Argentina).
Word to the wise tho., these things develop unbelievable feeding responses, even w/ handling, always use a hook to initiate contact as no one knows what a feeding bite might entail, and the several necropsies ive done, indicate massive internal hemorrhage.
Here's a happy momma receiving a DoR atrox.
I dont know what baby central american Clelia look like, the red ones ive seen pix of seem to have been labeled C scytalina or something similar ?
Mine are the far southern Clelia (Uruguay-Argentina).
Word to the wise tho., these things develop unbelievable feeding responses, even w/ handling, always use a hook to initiate contact as no one knows what a feeding bite might entail, and the several necropsies ive done, indicate massive internal hemorrhage.
Here's a happy momma receiving a DoR atrox.
Re: Mussuranas amongst us
Here's a C. clelia juvenile I found in Tikal National Park, Guatemala (though I don't know whether the name has been changed since I took the picture over 15 years ago):
Gerry
Gerry
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us
...holy smokes Dr B. ... thats one beautiful shot, any more ....pant pant ... the heavy band is so micrurid like ... dare i say mimic ?
- regalringneck
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us
.. i spoze on a more serious note; just exactly how does one go identifying such a beast anyway, did you need a key?
Re: Mussuranas amongst us
Thanks for the kind words, John! I do have plenty more Tikal herp photos, but unfortunately the one I posted above is the only C. clelia shot that I've digitized and the others I took of that species are all still 35mm slides. I really need to dig my slide scanner out of storage one of these days and see if it still works...
Those juveniles do look like particularly robust, unusually colored Micrurus spp. (or maybe giant Ninia sebae? ), and I'd bet you're right that they're enjoying some benefit from mimicry while they're still small enough for other critters to hassle them (if memory serves, the specimen depicted was upwards of 20" in length), but there were a number of tells as to their true identity. When I found that snake, the first thing apparent to me was how large its eyes were relative to its size, like a neonate's would be (because it was still just a youngster, of course, despite its size) and rather unlike Micrurus' tiny eyes. Once in hand the creamy white chin and venter really stood out, too. After that I suppose one could check to see whether it had loreal scales, which I understand Clelia almost always have and Micrurus lack, but I don't actually recall doing that. I have to admit, too, that I was greatly aided in identifying it by the fact that I'd encountered an exhilaratingly large adult a few nights before, and so the species was still looming equally large in my thoughts.
Gerry
Those juveniles do look like particularly robust, unusually colored Micrurus spp. (or maybe giant Ninia sebae? ), and I'd bet you're right that they're enjoying some benefit from mimicry while they're still small enough for other critters to hassle them (if memory serves, the specimen depicted was upwards of 20" in length), but there were a number of tells as to their true identity. When I found that snake, the first thing apparent to me was how large its eyes were relative to its size, like a neonate's would be (because it was still just a youngster, of course, despite its size) and rather unlike Micrurus' tiny eyes. Once in hand the creamy white chin and venter really stood out, too. After that I suppose one could check to see whether it had loreal scales, which I understand Clelia almost always have and Micrurus lack, but I don't actually recall doing that. I have to admit, too, that I was greatly aided in identifying it by the fact that I'd encountered an exhilaratingly large adult a few nights before, and so the species was still looming equally large in my thoughts.
Gerry
Re: Mussuranas amongst us
Heres another Black Swan...
- ratsnakehaven
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us
John, have you figured out, yet, why those things look so much like ringnecks?
TC
TC
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us
Holas Terry, how goes the good life? No i havent reconciled that "coincidence" there are several behavioral similarities between these two as well. Heres an oddity tho, the smell of the venom of a frightened heloderm is a musky fruity unmistakeable smell, unlike anything else, to my nose ... except the smell of a frightened Clelia, but in the latter case i think its originating from their harmless orifice, but mebbe not!
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us
regalringneck wrote:Holas Terry, how goes the good life? No i havent reconciled that "coincidence" there are several behavioral similarities between these two as well. Heres an oddity tho, the smell of the venom of a frightened heloderm is a musky fruity unmistakeable smell, unlike anything else, to my nose ... except the smell of a frightened Clelia, but in the latter case i think its originating from their harmless orifice, but mebbe not!
Hola, senior!
Life is good as usual. Just a few bumps. Exciting things to pursue here in s. AZ...
Interesting info about the gila. Since I don't ever see mussuranas, I'll have to check gilas closer if possible. I saw about 1/2 doz. this season, but none smelled to my knowledge. Maybe I should try getting them defensive, but alas, they are protected, so they'll have to make perfume on their own.
Ringnecks are always interesting, but they aren't as easy to find in AZ as they were in MI (so long ago..heheh). Besides similarity in appearance to Clelia, I think there are some other similarities. Don't know about the venom, but the fact they love to eat other snakes compares very well. I think the Regal's venom is pretty potent and they don't seem afraid of any other snake of like size, of course. It's amazing how large a prey item they can put down for such a thin snake. I still wonder what the link is bt. ringnecks and mussuranas. Maybe genetics will help someday.
Good to know you're still active and studying interesting species....
TC
Re: Mussuranas amongst us
How do you make dor's safe for herps to eat??
- regalringneck
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us
... always ... get em off to the side of the road 1'st : }
Re: Mussuranas amongst us
Is that all it takes?? should they be fresh or something also before feeding them to a pet?regalringneck wrote:... always ... get em off to the side of the road 1'st : }
- ratsnakehaven
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us
Dery, if you think the road kill will be harmful to your pet snake for some reason, then don't use it. If it's too far gone it probably won't make a good meal.
Here's a night snake gobbling up a YoY longnose snake DOR....
Many snakes eat other snakes, and some eat many different kinds of other snakes.
TC
Here's a night snake gobbling up a YoY longnose snake DOR....
Many snakes eat other snakes, and some eat many different kinds of other snakes.
TC
Re: Mussuranas amongst us
Okay I think i know what to look for now. I was just curious.Animals i have are better on veggies, mice, small lizards, and insects. Not good dor. I have let them nibble on certain plants w/o pesticides on them in my yard.ratsnakehaven wrote:Dery, if you think the road kill will be harmful to your pet snake for some reason, then don't use it. If it's too far gone it probably won't make a good meal.
Here's a night snake gobbling up a YoY longnose snake DOR....
Many snakes eat other snakes, and some eat many different kinds of other snakes.
TC
Re: Mussuranas amongst us
would parasite transmission be an issue at al?
- ratsnakehaven
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Re: Mussuranas amongst us
Joseph S. wrote:would parasite transmission be an issue at al?
Yes, I consider that. Most of the experiments I've done with snakes have to do with wild caught snakes that I release later anyway. Some that I keep take their chances, such as my female green rat and a couple kings, but I've never had a problem with mites or disease, not that there aren't any out there. I think it's a lot easier to bring mites or disease into one's collection from a purchased or gifted animal. I always quarantine new animals.
One reason I'm anxious to get captive born green rats and kings is so that I won't have to worry about the transmission of mites or disease. That always has to be a consideration, especially if you have very valuable pets.
I would also be careful feeding wild plant life to my animals...
TC