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 Post subject: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: July 15th, 2017, 7:17 am 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_EIha0 ... ture=share

Brought to you by National Geographic. A little over 5 minutes long.


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: July 15th, 2017, 9:35 am 
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That is great...
Very balanced and informative.


We also get to see couple of our own members.


I was once scanning the road near a known site, met a commercial collector, and asked why not just breed his own? His response was that at least one of the species, breeds only every other year, collecting from a ranch site is more convenient.


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: July 16th, 2017, 9:13 am 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 10:42 am
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That was a fun video...except now I am craving a Robert Is Here milkshake very severely.


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: July 16th, 2017, 7:43 pm 

Joined: December 30th, 2013, 7:27 am
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Neat little video. I have such mixed feelings about non-native herps getting established but that was I nice explanation for chameleons in Florida.
Thanks for sharing.
Best,
Nick


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: July 17th, 2017, 6:53 pm 
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Tamara D. McConnell wrote:
That was a fun video...except now I am craving a Robert Is Here milkshake very severely.


Their Key Lime milkshake is divine. Can't have a trip down to ENP without stopping there!


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: July 18th, 2017, 7:25 am 

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Yes, the key lime shake is the one I love!


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: July 18th, 2017, 4:51 pm 
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You folks are right... the key lime shake is a must have!!!

But did you all see our movie star Josh???
There will be no talking to him now!


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: July 19th, 2017, 3:39 am 

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Josh did great! I loved his sleuthing explanation, that having someone tell him they threw an avocado at a cham was the final puzzle piece.


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: July 19th, 2017, 7:22 am 
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Tamara D. McConnell wrote:
Yes, the key lime shake is the one I love!



This reminds me of a shake I had recently at a place that would make them out of any of the ice cream flavors they had, which changed up frequently, and because it made me so curious, I had an Earl Gray Tea shake.

Not super sweet which was oddly tasty and a trip, in an ice cream experience.


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: July 19th, 2017, 9:10 am 

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I had an Earl Gray Tea shake.


I would have had to try that, absolutely.


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: July 19th, 2017, 9:21 am 
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Another typically moronic and misleading piece of National Geographic click bait complete with cartoons and the obligatory squeaky voiced cutesy sorority girl narrative. This looks like something straight out of an episode of Bill Nye the ALL LIE NO SCIENCE GUY.

Strange they didn't mention that National Geographic sells their own line of exotic and small pet products for all your pet chameleon's needs available Exclusively at PetSmart.

Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: July 19th, 2017, 12:45 pm 

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Yes, I have seen those products. Not sure why they are bad?
Ernie, you are irascible, but also adorable.
I don't get why the video was bad, but I'm willing to listen, if you care to elaborate.


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: July 19th, 2017, 1:02 pm 
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There is something about Ernie.

He has lot of knowledge only experience can build.

And the thing about millenial Squeaky Proms, those are also the intern types that have a beginner-intermediate level of animal skills but get the jobs in many animal formats that choose that image presentation over a good set of hands and eyes. They are also difficult to work with, having the coping skills of a stack of baby powder. But I hear that's true across workplace genres.

I cant see the pic Ernie provided. Ever since I started importing my pics from photobucket to my desktop and into flicker, any thing from photobucket I cant see.

More corporate invasion.


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: July 19th, 2017, 3:42 pm 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 10:42 am
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I couldn't see the photo, either. I didn't worry about it. I kind of don't take anybody who still labors under Photobucket seriously. Photobucket? Puh-leeze. It's the most egregious thing ever. Horrible service and horrible quality.
Am not getting down on you, Ernie...but c'mon...photobucket? Nah. You can do better than that. Flickr has like a gazillion free bytes or bits or whatever they are called, no charge. MUCH better.


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: July 20th, 2017, 7:43 am 
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Dang those cartoon characters sure made chameleons look, uh, user friendly.

There is no way kids of all ages with a casual interest in one wouldnt be juiced up by that piece, Im just sayin.

The real trick, is getting out of selling a chameleon.


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: July 21st, 2017, 2:39 pm 
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First off the attention grabbing title. The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching, They filled the video with cartoons of villainous looking men in coats and hats hiding in the shadows and exchanging fistfuls of money. All very calculated. They wanted to portray this as villainous and evil. Those herp club kids looked nothing like that. They looked like a bunch of nerds having fun. That is exactly what 99% of chameleon hunters are. If they can make a few bucks doing it. So what. They aren't hurting anything or anyone and nether are the chameleons.

The show states that Florida is home to more non native reptile then anywhere else in the world. They strategically fail to mention that Florida is home to more non native SPECIES then anywhere else in the world. And that reptiles only make up a small percentage of that number and most of that number is comprised of small innocuous Insectivorous.

The video claims that the chameleon's have been spreading across Florida for years and nobody was really talking about it. In fact. Everyone from Fish and Wildlife and collector's to Invasive species researcher's have known and talked about it almost from day one. No one cared. The chameleons are harmless to people and the environment.

In the Vid they interview a dirt foot named Brandon the roadside fruit stand guy. He talks about how he rented his place to an animal dealer and makes some off color comments. I could go into a good bit of detail about this little segment. But after dealing with Nat. Geo. I know what these POS do in the editing room. So maybe due to some careful editing Brandon came off looking like they wanted him to look. MAYBE. And l let it go at that for now.

They state that because "Florida" chameleons have a reputation for being hardier the shipments of imported chameleons have dropped. False. Many people feel that "Florida" chameleons are less hardy. The reason for the decreasing numbers of imports has little to do with "Florida" chameleons. Things have changed a number of reasons.

it comes as no surprised that two old buddy's Mike Roachford or is it still Mikey Fresh and Josh Hollbrook were involved in this crap. They are a perfect fit. The world of academia loves sheep especially the dim witted ones.

Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: July 21st, 2017, 4:11 pm 

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Ernie,
Why are you getting down on Josh? He's one of the nicest people on this planet.
edited to add: Nevermind. I don't even want to know what you have against Josh. None of my business. I just want to state for the record that I admire/respect him tremendously. I am sorry that your view is different, but you are certainly entitled to your view. I have firsthand seen Josh go way above and beyond to build the herp community and help new folks (self included). I think he's utterly awesome. And I love his field guide.


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: July 22nd, 2017, 5:18 am 
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Notice at 1:56 they have a drawing of a shady and villainous looking guy with stacks of crates on ether side of him. At the top the name: Reptile Guy with the word eviction written in big red letters across the picture to the left are crates maked in large bold letters TEGU, PYTHON and to the right more crates with one marked in tiny little letters chameleons. And you thought this was about chameleons. Propaganda anyone.

Curious as to why when the kids over at NG were doing this piece they didn't interview or consult anyone from the live animal trade? They included a couple of pseudoscientist, a few herp club geeks, a fruit stand guy, but no one from the live trade or any professional collector's. Not a very well researched piece is it.

Josh Holbrook. He runs around shooting off his mouth, giving his "professional opinion" about things like this and I'll say it flat out, he doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground. He should stick to talking about things like how corn snakes eat mice. I have nothing against Holbrook as a human but if someone is looking for information. Its better to get the right answers from a jerk then be completely misinformed by a super nice guy ultracrepidarian.

When its comes to shadowy figures lurking around people property's. Mike Roachford has done his share of that and so has Holbrook. That includes getting shot at. Poke around peoples places at night and you might get shot at. There's nothing new about this and it has nothing to with chameleon's.

Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: July 25th, 2017, 8:40 pm 

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Is it really illegal to collect a non-native species (aside from trespassing if you don't have permission)? Seems like they should call it the secretive world of collecting non-native species and hopefully not trespassing to do so or you might get shot?


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: July 26th, 2017, 8:51 am 
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Quote:
Is it really illegal to collect a non-native species (aside from trespassing if you don't have permission)?


You can legally catch all you want. There are no laws about collecting, its releasing that's illegal. Chameleon collecting has taken the place of brown anole collecting. The lizards already are there but its still illegal to catch them and let them go at another spot.

Image

This photo is of the exact location near the rt 80 exit of I 75 that the first chameleons were introduced. I believe in 2002. At this location not only could you find veiled chameleon's but also all sorts of pill junkie's, drunks and gang member and the occasional prostitute. A truly diverse and beautiful environment.

Image

What they don't tell you about "Chameleon ranching" is that all these "secret" spots are in highly cultivated and urbanized agricultural garbage lands that don't have a shred of native habitat. Most places are covered in for sale signs and are in close proximity to completely developed or soon to be completely developed locations.Notice the guy in the vid at 5:47 catching a chameleon out front of a CVS pharmacy. I love how they say sometimes the secret spots are right next to the side of the road. Miles from the nearest dealer. Like that is some kind of revelation. All the spots are right next to the side of the road. How else would you get there.

Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: July 26th, 2017, 10:31 am 

Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm
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This one post right here, Ernie, exemplifies why I bother to keep trying to talk with you, or even acknowledge you exist. Not some of the other posts in this topic or others where you attack individuals, but just the info and insights you provide or prompt, e.g.:

- right now you can remove all the lizards you want - take every last one you can find, or leave some for whatever reason (there's no law saying you have to catch one if you see it, or keep one if you catch it)
- all the spots are in highly modified "habitat", with few or no natives left, just awaiting a developer for final destruction (from a wildlife perspective; humans could well find the changes an improvement)
- chameleons do not appear to be the least bit "invasive" - they obviously can be established but they don't seem to spread out from there on their own, they appear to require human assistance to colonize new areas (which is illegal)
- chameleons are not like tegus or burms or iguanas, in terms of spread or harm
- some people like herping, and there's nothing wrong with that

Some of these are "inconvenient truths" but nonetheless if you fancy yourself a realist, you've gotta accept them.


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: July 29th, 2017, 6:35 am 
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This photo is of the exact location near the rt 80 exit of I 75 that the first chameleons were introduced. I believe in 2002. At this location not only could you find veiled chameleon's but also all sorts of pill junkie's, drunks and gang members and the occasional prostitute. A truly diverse and beautiful environment.

Image


What they don't tell you about "Chameleon ranching" is that all these "secret" spots are in highly cultivated and urbanized agricultural garbage lands that don't have a shred of native habitat. Most places are covered in for sale signs and are in close proximity to completely developed or soon to be completely developed locations.Notice the guy in the vid at 5:47 catching a chameleon out front of a CVS pharmacy. I love how they say sometimes the secret spots are right next to the side of the road. Miles from the nearest dealer. Like that is some kind of revelation. All the spots are right next to the side of the road. How else would you get there.

Image

A gravid female Veiled.

Image

A nice looking "local" male Veiled. These lizard's are an incredible addition to one of the worlds most altered, toxic and culturally filthy ecosystems, Florida. There is nothing natural here and the fact that so many species have been able to find ways to survive and integrate themselves, forming new ecosystems of unparalleled diversity. Is the truest testament to natures relentless adaptability. No reptile species including tegus and Burmese python's have in anyway harmed Florida's already vanished "natural ecosystems". These animals have filled vacant niches and found ways to integrate themselves perfectly into the NEW and ever changing world.

Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: August 9th, 2017, 11:01 pm 

Joined: July 19th, 2017, 10:22 pm
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I just read an article on this and it was said that no chameleon poses a direct threat to the Florida Ecosystem, and the only illegal thing about ranching is releasing them after caught. Once caught they can never be released. If anyone would like to read the article shoot me a pm and I will email it to them.


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: August 9th, 2017, 11:05 pm 

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3) Inside the Secretive World of Florida’s Chameleon Catchers
Imported from overseas, six species of the exotic reptiles now prowl the backroads of the Sunshine State.
THE ILLEGAL AND SECRETIVE WORLD OF CHAMELEON RANCHING
National Geographic, by Natasha Day, 6/30/17
Armed with a flashlight on a backroad in Florida, Hillary Dupont-Joyce is on the hunt. Her target is a master of disguise, but a flash of light can make it stick out among the dark trees.
She scans her light along a thicket. Suddenly, her trained eye spots the prize: a sleeping chameleon.
Dupont-Joyce is part of a community of “herpers”—reptile enthusiasts who catch non-native chameleons in the backyards and bayous of rural Florida, often adopting them.
During the day, chameleons are near-impossible to see. They “don’t exactly match any given background like the old Looney Tunes bit,” says Montreat College herpetologist Joshua Holbrook, but their ability to change color and contort their bodies to hide behind branches and leaves make them seem invisible.
At night, they relax, turning a lighter, lime green and becoming more, well, chameleon-shaped. That’s when herpers go on the hunt.
Herpers are a small but dedicated community who share herping tips and favorite chameleon hiding spots on private online forums. Even more underground—and sometimes controversial—are chameleon “ranchers,” who breed and raise the reptiles with the intention of selling them off.
Most of these ranching activities go unnoticed, since it's hard to prove whether a chameleon rancher deliberately—and illegally—introduced the initial chameleons, or just happened to already have them on his or her property.
Ranching can be lucrative; a panther chameleon, one of the Florida non-natives, can sell for up to $1,000.
And it's not hard to wrangle the small reptiles. They're predictable homebodies—generally settling in one spot—as well as fecund: A chameleon pair in one small area can yield an entire micro-colony in just a few generations. Why import chameleons from a distant country like Yemen when you have an unlimited, free supply in your backyard?
The six species of chameleons living in Florida were brought to the U.S. in the pet trade from Madagascar, South Asia, and southern Europe. (North America has no native chameleons.)
Because chameleons are non-native, it's okay to pluck them from the trees—exotic species don’t have any protected status in Florida. Once a herper has snatched one, they can't put it back, since it’s illegal to release exotics into the wild
n contrast to some of the other exotic reptiles in Florida—the tegu and the Burmese python, which destroy native vegetation and wildlife, wreaking havoc on the ecosystem—-chameleons seem to help the environment.
“Find a Burmese python, and you euthanize every one,” says Holbrook, who is also a herper.
Insect-eating chameleons, on the other hand, feed on agricultural pests, he says.
Their unassuming nature is also why chameleons are less of a priority for the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission, which is more concerned with managing the state's 63 other non-native reptile and amphibian species. Florida has more non-native reptiles than anywhere else in the world.
The commission did not respond to a request for comment about their stance on chameleon herping or ranching.
Chameleon ranching may in fact benefit the animals. Dupont-Joyce doesn't have official data, but anecdotally she has noticed a decline in chameleon imports to Florida in recent years.
A drop in chameleon imports would be positive from a welfare perspective: Chameleons shipped overseas in boxes and crates do not fare well during transport. “You can’t do overnight shipping from Yemen,” says Holbrook. “By the time they are here. it’s a sick animal sent out to pet shops.”
It’s also good for herpers, who thrive on the thrill of the hunt. Before they’re out on a backroad with a flashlight, they have to find that backroad. Herpers track hidden chameleon locations like detectives, drawing on clues scattered on secret online message boards.
But some herpers, Holbrook says, skirt the law, re-releasing chameleons back into the wild—so they can find them again.
Neither Holbrook nor Dupont Joyce keep chameleons they catch, instead adopting them to fellow enthusiasts.
Dupont-Joyce is adamant that her wild-caught chameleons don’t end up in the area’s big box pet stores. “Since [such stores] came into play, there’s been a decline in proper husbandry,” she says. (Related: "U.S. Animal Abuse Records Deleted—What We Stand to Lose.")

Illegal buying, selling, and trading has also exploded on Craigslist, she says, where unlicensed sellers can do business largely unchecked.

Dupont-Joyce, who grew up around reptiles, has transformed her father's exotic pet store in Palm Beach into an animal rescue, Wild Cargo Pets, where she takes in hundreds of unwanted pets every year.

In the last six months alone, she’s adopted out 362 animals. The majority of animals left on her doorstep are non-natives, such as lizards and chameleons. (Explore our incredible color-changing chameleon interactive.)

“I think that’s one of the reasons why our pet store is a drop center for any unwanted animal,” she says.

Because they’re not even supposed to be in the state, “there’s not enough places with open arms, saying 'bring them in.’”


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: August 10th, 2017, 11:43 am 
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A drop in chameleon imports would be positive from a welfare perspective: Chameleons shipped overseas in boxes and crates do not fare well during transport. “You can’t do overnight shipping from Yemen,” says Holbrook. “By the time they are here. it’s a sick animal sent out to pet shops.”


Yet another in a long list of misinformation (LIES) from Josh Holbrook. Once again Holbrook has no idea what he is talking about. But if this clown would like to elaborate, provide the details of how many shipment's he's inspected upon arrival, packing methods, collection methods, numbers shipped, all the various details that only someone who knows what their talking about can produce. What really goes on. I would love hear how this experts opinion (he's never did a single thing but run his mouth) stacks up with my meager personal experience that I will be happy to share. This is an open call to any and all experts please. Due tell.

Quote:
“Find a Burmese python, and you euthanize every one,” says Holbrook, who is also a herper.


And what is achieved by doing this? There is so much more I can add from top to bottom to shred this load of garbage written by Natasha Day.


Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: August 10th, 2017, 12:49 pm 
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I've got nothing to prove but have opened plenty of boxes of lots of chameleons out of shipment. Also arboreal agamids of varied taxa. I spent alot of time too hanging out with Dave Bannon back in the day, Ive been in the warehouse (a major one in ca) I used to go and cherry pick my animals for shops I have worked at through the years.

Arboreals dont ship very well. Im not going to get dramatic. You may not know me or think Im a clown, but fixing up jacked up chameleons is something I do pretty well. Even really small ones. Just sayin. We all have somethin.


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: August 10th, 2017, 1:54 pm 
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Arboreal don't ship well ? An odd and poorly supported generalized statement. Not true. You can make a case for some specific species. Some of the species out of Africa (Mellers or Senegal chameleons for example).That don't generally don't fare well for various reasons (that I can explain in detail). But these lizards are only shipped in small numbers. This has nothing to with them being arboreal and does not hold true in the least for the species that are the focal point of this topic. Veiled Chameleon's shipped from Yemen. Holbrooks quoted statement typifies his poor knowledge and his willingness to run his mouth without knowing what the hell he is talking about. He should qualify his comments and be more truthful about his lack of understanding and background knowledge.

I'm still waiting for some detailed expert opinion but in the meantime I will offer this little natural history tidbit. Veiled chameleon's are arboreal during warm weather but during harsh cold spells they will move to the ground and seek shelter by digging under rocks. On the ground Veiled chameleon's move with surprising speed. This was the key in learning that these reptiles were not the rare lizard's that the scientist in Yemen once believed but in fact are as common as grains of sand. How was this little piece of information stumbled upon. Hacks much like myself had enough common sense to understand that it gets FKing freezing in the hills of Yemen. What do reptiles in rocky habitats do when it gets cold? Sit on a branch and freeze? Yeahhh..............

Ernie Eison

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Quote:
“Find a Burmese python, and you euthanize every one,” says Holbrook, who is also a herper.


And what is achieved by doing this?


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: August 10th, 2017, 2:10 pm 
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I disagree.

Arboreal Lizards dont ship well. Chameleons dont ship well.

I know what Ive experienced and what I've done and nothing you can post online can take it away.

It's like you take a couple booyah hits then go on FHF to bitch.


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: August 10th, 2017, 7:02 pm 

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Wstreps, I thought you would like this. That was sarcasm.


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: August 11th, 2017, 1:14 am 
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WSTREPS wrote:

PS
Quote:
“Find a Burmese python, and you euthanize every one,” says Holbrook, who is also a herper.


And what is achieved by doing this?



Why dont you take them in and care for them for the rest of their natural life?

They would be in expert hands and your love for the species made visible to the world.

You've had numbers of them before the only difference is that you would have to keep them. Even the bright yellow ones are 'meh' to the reptile buying public now.

You must have some that you have saved - why not make it your life's work to take as many as possible?

Am I being sarcastic? A little I guess. But not completely.


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: August 11th, 2017, 2:01 pm 
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I didn't expect any expert testimonies on the shipping of chameleons.

Quote:
“You can’t do overnight shipping from Yemen,” says Holbrook.


Maybe someone should inform Holbrook that we have something called the jet airliner. A miraculous vehicle capable of transporting a "shipment" from Yemen to the US more or less overnight. And with this there are strict packing regulations and inspections. Chameleon's shipped from Yemen experience very low mortality. Often times the females are gravid (Females lay multiple large clutch's) These females do not experience any egg laying hardships. They are breeding machines that lay perfect clutch's and bounce right back to do it again. The trick is understanding that they are strong burrowers and make a deep nest. You take a 5 gal. bucket , fill it just about to the top preferably with sandy slightly moist soil, punch some holes in the lid and put the female in there. Usually with in minutes she will dig to the bottom, deposit the eggs and she's good to go like nothing happened. The hatch rate is incredibly high. The reason for the decline in shipment's is not singular but the wild population's in Florida have had a small impact. Large scale captive breeding tops the list. I have heard experienced people say the wild caught Yemen lizards are hardier captives then home grown Florida animals. I've never kept the local lizards so I wont Holbrook anyone and offer an opinion on something I have no personal experience with.

Chameleon's out of Madagascar. The trade in chameleon's out of Madagascar is tightly regulated. You cant get permits for many species. For those you can (panthers for example) the numbers are very limited, the expense's very high and with all the competition from CB animals in Europe, Russia , the States. It seldom makes sense. But on the rare occasion when shipments are sent. Once again the chameleon's with few exceptions always arrive in great shape. This is cost prohibitive venture and its critical for all the party's involved to make every insurance that the animals arrive fit and healthy. And they do.

Quote:
Insect-eating chameleon feed on agricultural pests, he says. "Find a Burmese python, and you euthanize every one g "expert" Josh Holbrook


The Burmese python also feeds largely on agricultural pests. Young pythons feed almost exclusively on rats. I know the stock retort ...But they eat all the native wildlife, their wiping out everything ........Wawawawawawawa...

No they don't. A decade worth of "study" proves this. In fact the claims regarding the python's impact on native wildlife are biologically impossible . But the scientist who have cashed a lot of python paychecks have been telling everyone the opposite and have every reason to keep the charade going strong. To understand this requires a bit of knowledge and some common sense. This is enough to disqualify most from forming an educated opinion and so the charade continues. Seriously I could care less if people go around chopping the heads off these snakes. A-holes will always out number the intelligent by a wide margin. You cant stop stupid. My question is for the "intelligent", the "educated". I want science to tell me. What's the point. What is the scientific reasoning behind as Holbroork put it, euthanizing every one you find. What is the benefit? How does the random killing of these animal's have any discernable effect.

Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: August 11th, 2017, 2:11 pm 
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Wow thanks for explaining to us how to set up a brood bucket for calyptratus.

Something that I know a 13 year old did for a school project.


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: August 11th, 2017, 2:45 pm 
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The guy you're on presently isnt even on the thread engaging or defending. Same as all the other guys.

There is a note of compulsivity that is the dominating flavor of these themed posts of creative attacks on herp oriented individuals who have gotten some media attention.

I thought maybe the Python Rescue Idea might be something you could do, that would give you some airtime and maybe an opportunity to transmute your charisma.


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: August 11th, 2017, 10:35 pm 

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Kelly Mc wrote:
The guy you're on presently isnt even on the thread engaging or defending. Same as all the other guys.

There is a note of compulsivity that is the dominating flavor of these themed posts of creative attacks on herp oriented individuals who have gotten some media attention.

I thought maybe the Python Rescue Idea might be something you could do, that would give you some airtime and maybe an opportunity to transmute your charisma.

? Who is the guy and other guys.


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: August 12th, 2017, 1:19 pm 
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No not that! Not slimy chameleon's on my porch!

Yep, 13yr olds know about the Veiled in a bucket breeding trick. But I bet most of the people who read this thread don't. 20yrs ago scientist thought these lizards were rare. They couldn't keep them alive. Now 13 yr olds are breeding them in buckets. This thanks to the experience and understanding of the reptiles and their natural history's that a few hacks such as myself have accumulated thru decades of dedicated study. Another testimony to the intelligence, understanding and pioneering nature of what people (hacks) such as myself have done and the knowledge we brought forth. Common knowledge about these animals wasn't common until we made it common.


Python rescue? Hey great Idea!!! Maybe I can get the 4H club to donate me rabbits. Not their champions but like the ones that place 4th or 5th. The major flaw is that Burmese Python recuses are not legal in Florida. Plus the guys that cash python checks want to dissect every one caught. Looking for excuses to keep getting paid. FK can you imagine if they found a panther cub inside one. OMG ! The press coverage. The outrage . It would be a Funding Gold Mine !!! Sorry Reed. I know you check out all my post and thinking about that last line made you mess up a good pair of shorts.


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QUICKLY !!!! KILL IT NOW !!! BEFORE ITS TOO LATE !!!!


Quote:
Who is the guy and other guys.


I'm assuming that silly comment was referencing Josh Holbrook, Mike Roachford and the other Python in the Glade's researcher's. All of whom I have publicly confronted on this forum and completely shredded in the past. They were always given a fair opportunity to respond to the countless fallacies, contradiction's and blatant data skewing in their words and published work that I concisely brought to light. With the exception of personal insults and countless failed attempts to discredit me, Not a single biological point of contention was ever soundly refuted. In most cases they avoided the topic of discussion all together and focused on a gang attack smear campaign against me. This includes the man himself, Invasive Species Branch Chief Bobby Reed. SAD. I have openly thrown down the gauntlet. And in this thread have done so once again. Experts I welcome you to try your hand at my Faro table.

Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: August 12th, 2017, 6:23 pm 
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On message boards no one will concede - they just conveniently disappear from the thread so it's hard to really get anywhere with strong discussions like the invitation you evoke in your last (very powerful) closing remark.

You can be vicious, but you aren't petty.


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: August 12th, 2017, 7:55 pm 

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Oh Ok, Just wondering.


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: August 18th, 2017, 4:25 pm 
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Since this thread is still riding at the top and getting views I would like to touch on a few more things. Panther Chameleon's imported from Madagascar at this point I believe are all captive born and raised animal's. The article said that Panther Chameleon's sell for as much as $1000.00.This is true but misleading. Don't expect to find $1000.00 lizards in the trees of Florida. The Panther Chameleon's that get that kind of money come from well documented pedigreed captive bloodlines. Breeders are very fussy about documentation and details. The world of high end Chameleon breeding and selling is a tight nit and very catty one. The wild Panther Chameleon population in Florida is very small and might not sustain over the long haul (or even the short haul).


Quote:
This question is for the "intelligent", the "educated". I want science to tell me. What's the point. What is the scientific reasoning behind as Holbrook put it, euthanizing every one you find. What is the benefit? How does the random killing of these animal's have any discernable effect.


I posed this question in response to Josh Holbrooks comment that you should euthanizing every Burmese python you find. Certainly there must be some scientific reasoning behind Holbrooks words. Is there? Or was his statement just an artifact of a mindset rooted in a programmed logic that defies rational thought and fact based science. A predetermined thought pattern based on misleading teaching's that programs Morons, Imbeciles, and Idiots into believing that the pythons are destructive, that the snakes are threatening the existence of native wildlife, every time you kill one that's one less python and that's good thing, we have "SCIENCE" to prove this. But do they really have "SCIENCE" that proves this? Is this actually what the hard data is telling us? Could someone please present this "SCIENCE", the hard data that proves this? By all means show us your proof. Its been over a decade and millions upon millions of funding dollars and countless papers and projects. So what is the big discovery in all this? Where is the hard factual evidence that proves the snakes are causing environmental havoc. That proof that justifies the advocating of randomly killing these animal's as being a meaningful and constructive practice.

Ernie Eison

Image

This big girl was my first pet Burmese python (Circa 1974 /5 ish).

Image

This beautiful guy was found crawling across the street in Florida living a natural existence. As we all know paved roadways are a natural part of the Everglade's ecosystem. I'm glad I didn't run him over as the Morons, Imbeciles, and Idiots would suggest I do.


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: August 18th, 2017, 4:59 pm 

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Beautiful snakes. :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: August 22nd, 2017, 7:43 am 
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Since no expert stepped forward to address my simple questions Ill go over a few comments made by DR. FRANK MAZZOTTI one of the "key" Python go to guys.
Quote:
MAZZOTTI: But the problem is that they're an invasive species, and the danger that they cause is really to the ecosystem. Well, this isn't top predator, it's like an invader who is coming to a system that completely lacks defenses against it.

This is an outright lie. The introduced Burmese python inhabits a very small range in South Florida along with thousand's of other introduced and invasive species. A wide array of native and non native species predate on the pythons. In fact the pythons may be at a greater risk of predation in South Florida then they are in their native range. Predation primarily takes place in the case of hatching and juvenile pythons just as it does in the snakes natural range. No where in the world does predation on adult pythons act as a controlling measure for the snakes. There is no difference in the ecological defenses that keep the python's in check in Florida then there is in the snakes native range.
Quote:
MAZZOTTI: The pythons are definitely concentrated in certain locations in the Everglades, but they are fairly widespread.

Wide spread within their small range is how he should of qualified that remark. As with many species there are places that are honey holes (optimal locations)and the pythons are no different. But in general over the small range occupied by these snakes. Pythons are far and few in between.
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MAZZOTTI: We spend a lot of time looking for pythons and we don't see them most of the time when we're out.

If the snake population was as out of control as the researcher's would have everyone believe the rate of encounter would be much greater. Much has been made about the pythons cryptic nature. Its the excuse as to why they find so few. Fact : When snake density's are extraordinarily high you find a lot of snakes. Period. No matter how cryptic the species. If there were an over abundance of pythons the snakes would be easily found.
Quote:
What is fair to say is that the Burmese pythons and many of the invasive species today have their origin in the pet tree. Now, that said, it's not like there's a hoard of people running out into the Everglades letting animals go. In this case, it could've been maybe as few as one or two animals let go in the early 1980s.

No kidding.
Quote:
MAZZOTTI: The recent plethora of stories about pythons consuming prey in the Everglades is a prime example. Stories about large snakes feed directly into an archetypal fear that humans have of snakes, and stories about a feeding frenzy of snakes wiping out wildlife fuels a feeding frenzy of media coverage that wipes out the truth.

I am one of the co-authors. The title of the paper (“Severe mammal declines coincide with proliferation of invasive Burmese pythons in Everglades National Park”), We were careful not to say “caused” because we don’t know that.

With few exceptions, you would get that impression from the media coverage that hoards of rampaging snakes were vacuuming up mammals in the Everglades.

I have been thinking about this python-mammal pattern since we assembled the paper and I have been gathering more information. Quite honestly I am seeing other potential patterns emerge.

In science terms we call this a null hypothesis, or a statement of no effect. Of course none of this sells newspapers, draws viewers to a television station, or causes hits on a website.


Read and think . Ernie Eison


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 Post subject: Re: The Illegal and Secretive World of Chameleon Ranching
PostPosted: August 24th, 2017, 6:32 pm 
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I like turtles...


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