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Account termination
Poll ended at December 15th, 2014, 11:20 pm
yes 44%  44%  [ 8 ]
no 56%  56%  [ 10 ]
Total votes : 18
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 Post subject: Re: Termination of my HERP and Herpmapper account
PostPosted: December 17th, 2014, 3:38 pm 
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It started out on the main forum but was moved here a day or two after the thread was created.

I'm saddened to see this played out as it did. Does anyone know Sam personally? I really think there is something lost in translation between what we are typing on an internet forum and how he learns/approaches herping. I'm sure there is a way to help him understand, but sadly this did not work.


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 Post subject: Re: Termination of my HERP and Herpmapper account
PostPosted: December 17th, 2014, 10:18 pm 
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Joined: June 7th, 2010, 3:41 pm
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:beer:

I think there is a lot of over-reaction here. The data is what's most important, and I hope we can sort it out.


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 Post subject: Re: Termination of my HERP and Herpmapper account
PostPosted: February 24th, 2015, 1:13 pm 
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Joined: October 1st, 2010, 8:40 pm
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Location: NE OHIO
If an individual wants to use herpmapper or HERP as a personal tool for their own records I say why not? Me personally if I was to use one of those two would not allow any of my data to be released to anyone who requests it. So the fact that it is not 100% accurate is irrelevant. Unless of course the people releasing the data are releasing it without my knowledge or permission, in which case I could see why they may want me to input my information accurately. ;) If, however they are not releasing my data without my permission, the level of accuracy in which I report said data is again irrelevant.

So I think the bigger question here is why are YOU requesting more specific data from someone who may not release that data to any "research" or "conservation" institutions regardless?


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 Post subject: Re: Termination of my HERP and Herpmapper account
PostPosted: February 24th, 2015, 5:00 pm 
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Hmm crickets huh? Smells like a "cricket" in the wood pile to me :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Termination of my HERP and Herpmapper account
PostPosted: February 24th, 2015, 7:45 pm 
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Trey wrote:
If an individual wants to use herpmapper or HERP as a personal tool for their own records I say why not? Me personally if I was to use one of those two would not allow any of my data to be released to anyone who requests it. So the fact that it is not 100% accurate is irrelevant. Unless of course the people releasing the data are releasing it without my knowledge or permission, in which case I could see why they may want me to input my information accurately. ;) If, however they are not releasing my data without my permission, the level of accuracy in which I report said data is again irrelevant.

So I think the bigger question here is why are YOU requesting more specific data from someone who may not release that data to any "research" or "conservation" institutions regardless?


Trey, I think you've fallen prey to the same misunderstanding that several people had earlier in this thread.

Chris Smith is on the board of Herpmapper and approached Sam about his Herpmapper data. If I understand correctly, Herpmapper releases their data on an ongoing basis - once you upload your data to Herpmapper, you are giving them permission to release the data immediately to their partnering agencies. There are no "data requests" or any need to keep notifying the data providing - all of the data is immediately given. It was in the process of turning over Sam's data that Chris saw the issues he described.

That's not how HERP works. The board members of HERP do not see HERP data and when data is requested, a specific data request, member notification, and member vote for release is done every time.

Herpmapper is not HERP. They are two different systems and they handle their data completely differently. Sam helped start the confusion by making this post about both of his accounts, but he was clear from the beginning that it was Herpmapper that contacted him.

The reason you got "crickets" wasn't because you had exposed some secret conspiracy, it's because this point has already been explained previously and I think some people are tired of repeating themselves. I didn't reply until now because I just now came online and saw your comment for the first time.


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 Post subject: Re: Termination of my HERP and Herpmapper account
PostPosted: February 25th, 2015, 5:38 am 
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Trey wrote:
Hmm crickets huh? Smells like a "cricket" in the wood pile to me :roll:

Hmmm, smells like an extremely thinly veiled outrageously racist expression to me. :shock:

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: Termination of my HERP and Herpmapper account
PostPosted: February 25th, 2015, 6:58 am 
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jonathan wrote:
Trey wrote:
If an individual wants to use herpmapper or HERP as a personal tool for their own records I say why not? Me personally if I was to use one of those two would not allow any of my data to be released to anyone who requests it. So the fact that it is not 100% accurate is irrelevant. Unless of course the people releasing the data are releasing it without my knowledge or permission, in which case I could see why they may want me to input my information accurately. ;) If, however they are not releasing my data without my permission, the level of accuracy in which I report said data is again irrelevant.

So I think the bigger question here is why are YOU requesting more specific data from someone who may not release that data to any "research" or "conservation" institutions regardless?


Trey, I think you've fallen prey to the same misunderstanding that several people had earlier in this thread.

Chris Smith is on the board of Herpmapper and approached Sam about his Herpmapper data. If I understand correctly, Herpmapper releases their data on an ongoing basis - once you upload your data to Herpmapper, you are giving them permission to release the data immediately to their partnering agencies. There are no "data requests" or any need to keep notifying the data providing - all of the data is immediately given. It was in the process of turning over Sam's data that Chris saw the issues he described.

That's not how HERP works. The board members of HERP do not see HERP data and when data is requested, a specific data request, member notification, and member vote for release is done every time.

Herpmapper is not HERP. They are two different systems and they handle their data completely differently. Sam helped start the confusion by making this post about both of his accounts, but he was clear from the beginning that it was Herpmapper that contacted him.

The reason you got "crickets" wasn't because you had exposed some secret conspiracy, it's because this point has already been explained previously and I think some people are tired of repeating themselves. I didn't reply until now because I just now came online and saw your comment for the first time.



Jonathon, thank you for explaining that to me, from the posts I had read previously that was not clear. For anyone else who may need clarification here is a link http://www.herpmapper.org/faq


gbin wrote:
Trey wrote:
Hmm crickets huh? Smells like a "cricket" in the wood pile to me :roll:

Hmmm, smells like an extremely thinly veiled outrageously racist expression to me. :shock:

Gerry


Thanks for pointing that out in case someone here hasn't heard this extremely common colloquialism
Racism is not a trait a single person would ever consider me displaying. If you are uncomfortable with anything I say (likely due to your own fears and insecurities) please feel free to keep it to yourself. In the meantime, why don't you actually go out and do some herping :P
:| :crazyeyes:


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 Post subject: Re: Termination of my HERP and Herpmapper account
PostPosted: February 25th, 2015, 8:40 am 
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From Wikipedia's entry concerning the barely concealed racist expression Trey used above and is now trying to dismiss as merely an "extremely common colloquialism":

    "The term [upon which this phrase relies] declined in use during the 20th century, and now the occasional use of this phrase by public figures has often been followed by an apology.[5][6][7][8][9][10]"

From the Urban Dictionary:

    "This phrase was used, although not widely, in the 60's and has made a comeback in white supremacist groups recently."

(It's actually much older than that, of course, dating back to the days of slavery in the U.S.)

If racial slurs and expressions making use of them are still "extremely common" among the people with whom you associate, Trey, then I suggest you try hard to educate them (along with yourself) on modern standards of behavior, or start hanging out with a different crowd. All of us who are old enough know from our past numerous such expressions targeting this or that racial/ethnic group, of course - they (along with the prejudices from which they arose) were abundantly expressed in mid-20th century America, as indicated above - but of course almost all of us are also now wise enough to leave them (and their associated attitudes) in the past where they belong. If you're much younger as I think is the case, well, I guess that makes your clinging to such hurtful expressions/ideas that much worse.

trey wrote:
Racism is not something a single person would ever consider me displaying...

Sorry to tell you this, but that's no longer true. In any event, whether or not you share the attitude that goes along with the expression you used and are now defending...

Public racist acts/expressions call for public condemnation.

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: Termination of my HERP and Herpmapper account
PostPosted: February 25th, 2015, 11:50 am 
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TLDR Gerry. My point is, it's only racist if you make it racist. Which you did. Once again, go do some herping and contribute to this community rather than constantly stirring the pot and starting arguments in some kind of debaucherous, sanctimonious crusade.


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 Post subject: Re: Termination of my HERP and Herpmapper account
PostPosted: February 25th, 2015, 1:21 pm 
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Trey wrote:
... it's only racist if you make it racist...

Oh, well, if you say so, Trey! :roll:

If you don't want to be taken for a racist - and it does appear you're at least not so far along as to be proud of being one, anyway - then you might want to learn not to talk like one. Likewise if you don't want me calling you out for saying racist things here.

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: Termination of my HERP and Herpmapper account
PostPosted: February 25th, 2015, 8:17 pm 
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A lion never loses sleep over the opinion of a sheep. :sleep:


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 Post subject: Re: Termination of my HERP and Herpmapper account
PostPosted: February 26th, 2015, 12:46 am 
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I don't think I've ever heard that phrase in my life. Had no clue what either Trey or Gerry was talking about until I looked it up just now.

Like I think Gerry sort of tried to, I wouldn't call Trey's use racist, he seemed to just be repeating a colloquialism that he had heard.

But Trey, honestly man, this isn't the place for segregation-era colloquialisms built around the N-word. I'd argue that no place is. Do whatever you want around your own people, but pick up a different vocabulary to use here.


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 Post subject: Re: Termination of my HERP and Herpmapper account
PostPosted: February 26th, 2015, 2:56 am 

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Gerry,
I am guessing that Trey used the phrase innocently. I also had no idea what the phrase meant, or its historical associations. Gentler words to him (or anybody else who unintentionally offends) would perhaps have been more constructive (and kinder), don't you think? I don't see the point in trying to make somebody feel ashamed for an accident. You can educate without making somebody feel bad.
Dear God, there's enough meanness and negativity in the world already.
Just be nice. It doesn't cost you anything.


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 Post subject: Re: Termination of my HERP and Herpmapper account
PostPosted: February 26th, 2015, 3:25 am 
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Resorting to a googled coup de grace is kinda on the objects in picture may be smaller than they appear side, aint it?

Perhaps the comment means Gerry is a Black Sheep = Original.

Which would make the poster of such a quote imply that they think of themselves as .. uh.. a Lion? Really?

Hey maybe its a White Lion! :P


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 Post subject: Re: Termination of my HERP and Herpmapper account
PostPosted: February 26th, 2015, 5:55 am 
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Folks, I would have assumed Trey meant absolutely nothing by the racist expression he used, except that he not only substituted for the key word in it (suggesting that he knew better than to post such a word here), he also put his substitution in quotation marks (suggesting, to me at least, that he wanted to draw attention to it, that what he was saying was something along the lines of "Hey, I'm writing 'cricket' here, but you know what I really mean.") And then of course rather than acknowledging that he was wrong to use the expression here, he defended it. Still, I'll certainly hope that he doesn't really harbor the racial prejudice that expression reflects, that he just made an ugly mistake and compounded it by being unwilling to admit it. Even if I don't really believe that, I'll hope it.

I must say, I find it hopeful in any event that a number of you here didn't even know that racist expression. That's as it should be! :) As I said, such things should be left in the past.

Kelly, at various times and in various ways I have certainly identified with the black sheep, but so far as animal totems go I'm actually blood brother to the tiger. I mean that both figuratively and literally; once while working with a Siberian tiger in a zoo I accidentally injected myself with some of its blood while transferring the blood from a syringe to a specimen tube. I watched for weeks afterward to see whether my beard was developing orange streaks, but no such luck. ;)

And no, I'm not setting up some lion versus tiger thing here, in case anyone is wondering. I have nothing against Trey, and actually wish him well. I just have quite a bit against his (knowingly or unknowingly) perpetuating racism here.

Before leaving the subject, I'd like to point out that even genuinely unthinking use of racist expressions should not go uncorrected (be it by firm or gentle means). Rational people of good will should be watching against the use of such expressions and the attitudes behind them, not standing by silently while they're passed from generation to generation. That unhappy inheritance can be disrupted, and we now know that, but it takes a community effort. And yes, this goes for sexist expressions/ideas, too (which I'm sure some of you have also seen me take issue with here at FHF.)

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: Termination of my HERP and Herpmapper account
PostPosted: March 2nd, 2015, 8:43 pm 
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gbin wrote:
Folks, I would have assumed Trey meant absolutely nothing by the racist expression he used, except that he not only substituted for the key word in it (suggesting that he knew better than to post such a word here), he also put his substitution in quotation marks (suggesting, to me at least, that he wanted to draw attention to it, that what he was saying was something along the lines of "Hey, I'm writing 'cricket' here, but you know what I really mean.") And then of course rather than acknowledging that he was wrong to use the expression here, he defended it.
Gerry


I am a very disinterested third party because this post violotes one of my major forum interest rules - if a post is simply two people going back and forth over and over again, it is a personal conversation that doesn't interest me. But I have to say, I agree 100% with Gerry here. Trey, you used (or alluded to) a phrase that most people here would find offensive if they understood the allusion. I didn't know the phrase you were alluding to, but once I looked it up I was somewhat shocked that anyone would use it here. If you weren't alluding to that phrase, why the quotation marks?

You were called out for using a phrase that I think we all would agree is offensive and historically based on racist views. If you did so completely out of ignorance, then we are all willing to just move past it and get back to the discussion at hand. All you needed to do was say "oops, my bad. I didn't know the origins/implications of that phrase" and everyone would have respected your mistake. But to try and defend that sort of comment by criticizing the person who brought it to light is not in your best interest here.

Chris


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