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 Post subject: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 12th, 2014, 3:47 pm 
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global warming = no facts behind it, so I say false!!


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 12th, 2014, 3:50 pm 
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TravisK goes to get popcorn and find a comfy spot on the couch.





To somewhat reply to the OP...

I think human development has done and will continue to do more damage than climate change could ever do. Even though the two go hand in hand.


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 12th, 2014, 4:02 pm 
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Global warming is not the big threat that the media portrays it as, just because the glaciers are melting doesn't mean that the whole earth is. The glaciers are melting because we just had an ice age. The Chytrid fungus harms Amphibians more than anything else.


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 12th, 2014, 4:59 pm 

Joined: July 26th, 2010, 12:26 pm
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@Fieldnotes, is this your way of saying that you are a Republican? I thought that political debates were not allowed here?


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 12th, 2014, 5:17 pm 
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True. Look at some of the montane salamander work done by the Kozak lab (UMN) et al.

-Chris


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 12th, 2014, 5:19 pm 
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IllinoisGuy wrote:
Global warming is not the big threat that the media portrays it as, just because the glaciers are melting doesn't mean that the whole earth is. The glaciers are melting because we just had an ice age. The Chytrid fungus harms Amphibians more than anything else.


Wrong. Habitat loss harms amphibians more than anything else. Disease, global climate change, pollution, etc. are all adding to the problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 12th, 2014, 6:27 pm 
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Fieldnotes wrote:
global warming = no facts behind it, so I say false!!

And I say the statement above demonstrates not just profound ignorance but rather profound willful ignorance = no point in trying to educate or otherwise reason with you.

Did someone upset you recently by insisting that the earth is round, or are you just trying to start a fight here to help you get through some winter boredom? :roll:

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 12th, 2014, 7:11 pm 
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So far no proof.. so FALSE

Anyone else want to try...


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 12th, 2014, 7:34 pm 
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ILGuy, in case (unlike Fieldnotes) you're open to more than just Fox News' "reporting" on this subject, here's a report on a recent study looking at the relative importance - and addressing the considerable interplay - of global warming and chytrid to amphibian survival: http://www.livescience.com/41932-deadly ... andes.html (Be sure to read past the report's headline, which isn't very accurate considering the report's content.)

Fieldnotes wrote:
So far no proof.. so FALSE

"... as empty as the braying of an ass..." :roll:

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 12th, 2014, 8:31 pm 
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I think glacial melting can be cited as an example of the effects of global warming. Glaciers have always melted (giving rise to a number of small rivers or ending in the ocean), but they are now melting much faster than they used to. Coming out of an ice age, the recession of glaciers could be expected to a certain extent. The problem is that the rate of change in the lessening size of glaciers has picked up since around 1850 or so, roughly corresponding with the takeoff of the Industrial Revolution. Plus, air samples taken from layers of ice in polar areas have shown that carbon dioxide's atmospheric concentration once varied between (I'm not exactly sure, but making a guess here) 180 and 280 ppm. The higher the value, the less ice was deposited in that particular snow season. Nowadays, we've passed the 280 value and the concentration continues to rise. Other indicators are out there as well: increased coral bleaching, for example. I feel that, for right now, the areas that have felt global warming the most are reefs and the north polar region. Of course, any saltwater aquarium hobbyist can tell you that reefs are generally very demanding creatures to maintain, so a seemingly small change in temperature can have detrimental effects on the wild populations. As for the north pole area, it is one of the most untouched ecosystems in the world. Maybe we recognize the change there because we aren't busy causing a whole host of changes there ourselves (directly). For amphibians, I think we will eventually see changes. I can't think of any right now, but I imagine that if the temperature change is dramatic, many species will shift their ranges away from the equator and the poles will be largely crowded out (not to mention coasts will be inundated; but, to be fair, Antarctica seems to be fairly stable at the moment). A little long-winded, but it's just my two cents.
-Gene


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 12th, 2014, 8:41 pm 
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Quote:
global warming = no facts behind it, so I say false!!


Quote:
So far no proof.. so FALSE

Anyone else want to try...
I honestly cant tell if youre just being a troll or if you're actually serious. A 100 different examples popped into my head but if this is really the way you feel then i'd be wasting my time laying them out cause it seems like you have chosen to ignore countless bits of evidence already, and if you're trolling then id be wasting my time also.

Quote:
Global warming is not the big threat that the media portrays it as, just because the glaciers are melting doesn't mean that the whole earth is. The glaciers are melting because we just had an ice age. The Chytrid fungus harms Amphibians more than anything else.
Its ironic you dont see global warming and chytrid as being connected. Some scientists think climate change is one of the driving forces behind Chytrids spread and mortality of amphibians.


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 12th, 2014, 9:50 pm 
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still... no facts so =false.
But thanks for the ideas.
Glaciers have always melted and to say they are melting faster now... well, they are freezing much faster now than they ever have before, matter fact the Antarctic ice is steady, if not growing in size.


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 3:49 am 

Joined: July 26th, 2010, 12:26 pm
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My guess is that Fieldnotes works for a company that is in jeopardy of sinking due to their high CO2 output. I would imagine that anyone who takes a major part in the destruction of the US would be against global warming.


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 4:56 am 
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You want facts? Where are your facts that show it isn't happening or affecting some amphibians? The burden of proof is in your hands.

-Chris


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 5:42 am 
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Fieldnotes wrote:
Glaciers have always melted and to say they are melting faster now... well, they are freezing much faster now than they ever have before, matter fact the Antarctic ice is steady, if not growing in size.


Well then perhaps we best use the correct term for all of this: climate change. Climate change will mean warming in most areas, but can have other consequences in other places. Antarctic ice has expanded (albeit marginally if you look at the maps) over the past few winters there - but look at any National Park Service website, read about their glaciers, and you'll discover just how fast the northern hemisphere's ice is going. Greenland too looks pretty bad. Also, the overwhelming majority of scientific studies on the subject today say that the climate is changing and that it is a result of fossil fuel emissions. I simply think that the ramifications of continued, more apparent climate change are too great for us to doubt the science that points to it, so measures need to be taken to prevent it.


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 6:46 am 
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Okay, I’m convinced. But I’m still not going to buy a Prius. :beer:


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 7:04 am 
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Ignoring the willfully ignorant/game playing in the room rather than foolishly trying to reason with such...

The Real Snake Man wrote:
... perhaps we best use the correct term for all of this: climate change...

Really, TRSM, I've come to think that the best term for all of this is simply pollution. Everyone has long understood that human activities which aren't carefully regulated have the potential to pollute our soil, water and air, and that this pollution can cause lasting changes to these and subsequent profound effects on us and other living creatures. When global warming is put into that context, that we now realize we're polluting in such a way as to cause greatly accelerated climate change and all the ramifications that entails, people who are simply uneducated on the issue (as opposed to willfully ignorant) tend to respond "Well, yeah, now I get it." I know this firsthand because I've tried it with a number of folks who were bewildered by all of the dishonest propaganda being put out there by big business and its political and media mouthpieces, and it's worked. "Just think of it as another form of smog we're creating," I've suggested, "but this time one with far more widespread and far more lasting harmful effects." "Yeah, that makes sense."

It's understandable why we initially referred to it as global warming (= rapid, manmade climate change in an overall warming direction), as it certainly is an important enough form of pollution to merit its own name (like smog) - and then some! - but it's also unfortunate in that the term is so readily targeted with dishonest propaganda (e.g. "the earth has always undergone warming and cooling spells/has previously been warmer than it is right now, so what's the big deal?" when in fact the big deal is that humans are causing this warming to occur at a greatly accelerated pace, with all kinds of negative effects). And the term many of us have tried to switch to, climate change, actually exacerbates this problem. Who doesn't think that the climate has always changed and always will, after all? Stick with pollution; it emphasizes the abnormality, the harm and most important the human cause of the situation.

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 8:23 am 
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Chris Smith wrote:
You want facts? Where are your facts that show it isn't happening or affecting some amphibians? The burden of proof is in your hands.

-Chris


That was my exact initial thought. I can't understand why science is so misunderstood sometimes.


Gerry: Those explanations are good but very broad. It can be a good thing to over simplfy to have others understand whats happening, so I get it. There has been so much pollution and its sad that the only solution is dilution (for now).


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 9:20 am 

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Fieldnotes wrote:
Okay, I’m convinced. But I’m still not going to buy a Prius. :beer:


As an owner of a Prius, your loss. I just did a 6 day, 1600 mile trip from Mississippi to the Appalachians for less than $100 in gas. Global warming or not, that's damn sexy.


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 10:22 am 
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MonarchzMan wrote:
Fieldnotes wrote:
Okay, I’m convinced. But I’m still not going to buy a Prius. :beer:


As an owner of a Prius, your loss. I just did a 6 day, 1600 mile trip from Mississippi to the Appalachians for less than $100 in gas. Global warming or not, that's damn sexy.


I don't own one, but I've done long trips in one. If the fuel efficiency isn't sexy, then the ability to drive a forest road at night with the windows down listening to the frogs and owls instead of internal combustion certainly is.


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 10:24 am 
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cbernz wrote:
MonarchzMan wrote:
Fieldnotes wrote:
Okay, I’m convinced. But I’m still not going to buy a Prius. :beer:


As an owner of a Prius, your loss. I just did a 6 day, 1600 mile trip from Mississippi to the Appalachians for less than $100 in gas. Global warming or not, that's damn sexy.


I don't own one, but I've done long trips in one. If the fuel efficiency isn't sexy, then the ability to drive a forest road at night with the windows down listening to the frogs and owls instead of internal combustion certainly is.


Damn, with these reviews, I may have to look into one.

1600 miles for $100!?


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 10:34 am 
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cbernz wrote:
MonarchzMan wrote:
Fieldnotes wrote:
Okay, I’m convinced. But I’m still not going to buy a Prius. :beer:


As an owner of a Prius, your loss. I just did a 6 day, 1600 mile trip from Mississippi to the Appalachians for less than $100 in gas. Global warming or not, that's damn sexy.


I don't own one, but I've done long trips in one. If the fuel efficiency isn't sexy, then the ability to drive a forest road at night with the windows down listening to the frogs and owls instead of internal combustion certainly is.





I watched Peter Berg drive through a creek that was knee high on Mikey Fresh in a Prius. I have pics to prove the craziness. Peter has told me that it's a pretty reliable vehicle for herping.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 11:02 am 
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That is pretty crazy!

The Prius (at least the older one we drove to Florida in 2006) has pretty low clearance and a very smooth undercarriage (I guess there is some sort of cover to protect the electrical equipment). We were driving sand roads in the Panhandle, and we got a little ambitious on one road and got stuck in the sand. I'm thinking, great, now we're in for half an hour of shoveling, pushing, and sweating. My brother and I go around to the front of the car, our friend puts it in reverse, we lower ourselves, dig our heels into the sand, count to three, and shove as hard as we can. The car went flying backwards as if it were a Tonka truck. It's a lucky thing it didn't smash backwards into a tree! That thing was super light. The lightness and the smooth underside make it really easy to push over sand - it's like a giant toboggan.


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 11:22 am 
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How did the last ice age affect amphibians? How did the warming after it affect them? How did the Little Ice Age after the Medieval Warm Period affect them? I don't think the rise in temperature is doing anything to hurt animals, at least it wouldn't be if there was more of the animals, and larger pieces of habitat for them to move through. In the past, animals that required cooler temperatures slowly populated areas more in the north as the planet warmed, and slowly populated areas in the south as it cooled. I think they would all be just fine with the changing climate if we didn't get in the way by destroying all the habitat.


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 12:36 pm 
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I would like to piggyback on what Pyson said as his train of thought is right on the money. I am sure every major climatic change in biological history has cause extinctions, but many (even most in some cases) species survive. Usually it is through shifting populations to a refugia of preferred climate where they are then able to disperse again if the climate changes back. Of course sometimes refugia do not exist, or a species is already at it's thermal-tolerance limits and they become extinct. In today's world though humans have screwed up so much habitat that natural corridors for species ranges to shift through until a refugium is reached do not exist in many regions anymore.

So... with that in mind, humans have demonstrated over and over again that we are more than capable of altering major features of Earth, are we also willing to take the gamble that by not believing in (fact-based) global climate change we shouldn't work towards changing our ways - emissions, pollutions, etc...? My belief in global climate change aside, I would prefer to err on the side of caution rather than lose numerous species that I and others enjoying knowing still exist in this world.

Andy


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 12:54 pm 
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psyon wrote:
... I don't think the rise in temperature is doing anything to hurt animals, at least it wouldn't be if there was more of the animals, and larger pieces of habitat for them to move through. In the past, animals that required cooler temperatures slowly populated areas more in the north as the planet warmed, and slowly populated areas in the south as it cooled. I think they would all be just fine with the changing climate if we didn't get in the way by destroying all the habitat.

I don't think that's quite true, psy, because we're causing the climate to change at a greatly accelerated rate compared to what organisms have had to deal with previously. That's an essential component of global warming pollution that is often overlooked (deliberately by deniers) but is a real wildcard with respect to the effects it will have on species/ecosystems. We know that the rate of change matters a great deal - after all, if the climate changed slowly enough then organisms could adapt to deal with it directly without having to move at all - we just don't know where the breaking points will be for various forms of life.

But even if you were right, I don't see what good such "if onlys" do (and you'd better add "if we hadn't introduced chytrid all over the place where amphibians haven't evolved to resist it" given the interplay between the warming atmosphere and the ease with which the fungus spreads). On the contrary, I'm pretty convinced "if onlys" just increase misunderstanding by people less educated, who hear "things aren't really so bad" instead of whatever fine point we might be trying to put on the subject. The fact is that the habitat is terribly fragmented. And of course, montane species wouldn't have anywhere to go even if it weren't.

Andy Avram wrote:
... My belief in global climate change aside, I would prefer to err on the side of caution rather than lose numerous species that I and others enjoying knowing still exist in this world.

Andy, I understand where you're coming from, but it's clear that the science has proceeded well beyond just preferring to err on the side of caution, and I see nothing good to be gained (and at least some harm to be caused) by sugarcoating the situation. Not all that much education is required for anyone with common sense (as opposed to entrenched religious or political ideology or profit motive) to recognize that we're really messing things up badly, climate-wise. Of course, it would help tremendously if there weren't so many out there spreading dishonest propaganda in an attempt to discredit the science and the scientists who have been accumulating it.

With respect to the car talk:

I've two siblings who own Priuses and they're both very happy with them, too. I wanted something with more clearance (even if not a true 4x4) and more space for hauling stuff, so we got a 2008 Ford Escape Hybrid. After putting 126,000 miles on it so far, our overall average is over 33 MPG, and under optimal conditions - which happily seem to be the norm for road cruising :) - it can do considerably better than that. I think the best full tank we've driven so far came in right at 39 MPG - in an SUV! The gasoline engine they put in it is rather underpowered, though, so mountain or winter driving (both of which I'm doing these days) drops it down to around 30 MPG.

It'll be interesting to see how those new aluminum-body Ford F150 pickups do in the real world for gas mileage. There are certainly a great many of the current version of that pickup (and others that scarcely vary from it) on the road today, and they certainly are gas hogs.

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 12:59 pm 

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What most people don't get is that it's not the warming that is a problem. It is the rate of warming that is the problem. It really doesn't matter if habitat is in tact or not because, even with in tact habitat, species do not have enough time to shift distributions rapidly, particularly species that are not very motile like amphibians. The warming that is predicted is in the next 100 years is what would normally occur over hundreds or thousands of years. That is the problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 1:43 pm 
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gbin wrote:
I don't think that's quite true, psy, because we're causing the climate to change at a greatly accelerated rate compared to what organisms have had to deal with previously. That's an essential component of global warming pollution that is often overlooked (deliberately by deniers) but is a real wildcard with respect to the effects it will have on species/ecosystems. We know that the rate of change matters a great deal - after all, if the climate changed slowly enough then organisms could adapt to deal with it directly without having to move at all - we just don't know where the breaking points will be for various forms of life.


Over the extent of many animals entire ranges, the average temperature difference is more than what models show the overall increase will be. The biggest impact of the change in average temperatures will be on the edges of an animals range towards the equator where the climate is just barely suitable. Animals that live in the comfy middle zone will not be as impacted because rising temperatures will still be within their tolerable ranges. Animals furthest from the equator will have improved temperatures, and be able to survive better.

I think it would be a bigger issue if the climate was rapidly cooling. Tropical animals already living close to the equator wouldn't be able to move anywhere to find warmer temperatures if they dropped below what is tolerable for the species.


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 1:55 pm 
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For the record, my view on climate change, is that I don't care what is happening either way. I believe we have plenty of other great reasons for cutting back on pollution and carbon emissions. I don't want to have to wear smog masks like they do in China at times. I don't want to look at disgusting polluted water while I am kayaking on the rivers. Hell, I don't want to have to question whether or not it's safe to get into the waters. I like the idea of more fuel efficient cars simply because it will cost me less money to herp. I like the idea of more energy efficient light bulbs and appliances because it saves me money on my electric bill. I don't see why we need to believe the world is going to end and get into a panic in order to make changes to keep it the way we like them.


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 2:24 pm 
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psyon wrote:
... I don't see why we need to believe the world is going to end and get into a panic...

Uh-huh, because that's what scientists who have been working on this subject and those who have been persuaded by their research are advocating: belief that the world is going to end, and panic. :roll:

Thanks for setting us straight on that, psy. Glad to see you're trying to be part of the solution.

Gerry


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PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 2:38 pm 

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It would be easier to believe if Al Gore did not preach about it , while he flying from town to town in his private jet. Know doubt we need to be more careful about the environment it just makes it harder when political parties use it as leverage for their own personal gain.


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 2:45 pm 
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gbin wrote:
Uh-huh, because that's what scientists who have been working on this subject and those who have been persuaded by their research are advocating: belief that the world is going to end, and panic. :roll:


The scientists aren't but politicians and media companies sure do like causing panic about things.

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Thanks for setting us straight on that, psy. Glad to see you're trying to be part of the solution.


Like I said, I think we have plenty of other reasons to keep the environment healthy. If the goal is to clean up the planet, then who cares if I am encouraging people to clean it up because I like to hike and look at animals, or because I think it will stop global warming? Besides, when you suggest to someone that they drive a Prius, what is going to have a better result? "You should buy one to cut back on carbon emissions to help curb global warming!" or "Because you can go 1600 miles for only $100!" Option two would persuade me much faster than option one, as I would guess it would persuade most people faster than option one. Hell, at this time in our country you would probably get a better result by saying "Because it will help to reduce our dependence on foreign oil", but then again, trading between countries helps to keep the peace, so I don't know if that's necessarily a good thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 3:03 pm 

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psyon wrote:
For the record, my view on climate change, is that I don't care what is happening either way. I believe we have plenty of other great reasons for cutting back on pollution and carbon emissions. I don't want to have to wear smog masks like they do in China at times. I don't want to look at disgusting polluted water while I am kayaking on the rivers. Hell, I don't want to have to question whether or not it's safe to get into the waters. I like the idea of more fuel efficient cars simply because it will cost me less money to herp. I like the idea of more energy efficient light bulbs and appliances because it saves me money on my electric bill. I don't see why we need to believe the world is going to end and get into a panic in order to make changes to keep it the way we like them.


I know a couple dozen people who believe in climate change and that we are responsible for it. Not one of those people would get into a panic about it. It is not in their, or my, nature to get into a panic about anything. All the high strung, panic ridden people I know do not believe in global warming. However, they do believe that the government will try to take their guns away. Like you, I am not much worried about it. Regardless, I will do the best I can to do my part.

Lets say science is wrong about this and we cut CO2 by 90%. How is that a bad thing? It looks to me like the naysayers are against every aspect of cleaning up this mess. It is really confusing. You would think that weather you believe or not everyone would be for cutting the use of fossil fuels, minus oil/coal/rail industry.


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 3:17 pm 

Joined: September 8th, 2011, 5:12 pm
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leslie smith wrote:
It would be easier to believe if Al Gore did not preach about it , while he flying from town to town in his private jet. Know doubt we need to be more careful about the environment it just makes it harder when political parties use it as leverage for their own personal gain.


By the same token, having advocates like Michele Bachmann and Sarah Palin on the other side should get people flocking to reduce emissions. Both sides have their share of unsavory characters, but rather than focus on them, it's probably better to focus on the actual issue.

And psy, I very, very much disagree about cooling being worse than warming. Tropical animals are incredibly attuned to local climatic patterns. Warming is just as bad as cooling. Further, warming climate is changing precipitation patterns (which is particularly problematic for amphibians), which affects breeding phenology and while animals may be able to migrate to "cooler" areas, they can't as easily migrate to areas that would meet the precipitation requirements they need.


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 3:34 pm 
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dthor68 wrote:
Lets say science is wrong about this and we cut CO2 by 90%. How is that a bad thing? It looks to me like the naysayers are against every aspect of cleaning up this mess. It is really confusing. You would think that weather you believe or not everyone would be for cutting the use of fossil fuels, minus oil/coal/rail industry.


Image

Quote:
Further, warming climate is changing precipitation patterns (which is particularly problematic for amphibians), which affects breeding phenology and while animals may be able to migrate to "cooler" areas, they can't as easily migrate to areas that would meet the precipitation requirements they need.


Huh? I thought everyone was saying we would have more rain?
http://www.livescience.com/408-100-year ... torms.html


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 4:03 pm 

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Precipitation patterns will change, but that does not mean that it will retain predictable patterns that species evolved with.

I mean, look at this year, as an example. The east has had an unusually high amount of precipitation, more than average. The west? Very dry, when it should be wet. The west may have off-kilter storms later in the year, or this year will be dry. What does that mean for all of the amphibians that would be breeding now?


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 4:19 pm 
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psyon wrote:
... I don't see why we need to believe the world is going to end and get into a panic...

psyon wrote:
gbin wrote:
Uh-huh, because that's what scientists who have been working on this subject and those who have been persuaded by their research are advocating: belief that the world is going to end, and panic. :roll:

The scientists aren't but politicians and media companies sure do like causing panic about things.

Oh, right, it's not the scientists and ordinary people who believe them and their evidence who have been saying that global warming pollution is going to bring the world to an end and who are encouraging folks to panic about it, it's all those nameless "politicians and media companies." Silly me! :roll:

The truth of the matter is that the politician who has gotten by far the most grief for supposedly being alarmist about global warming pollution because he has been by far the most outspoken on the subject, Al Gore, has never said anything anywhere near "the world is going to end," and though he has strongly and repeatedly called for various actions to counter it - actions which would be genuinely meaningful and which we could genuinely undertake if the will of the people were behind them - he has never displayed nor encouraged anyone to panic over it. The truth of the matter is also that the only major media companies (I won't try to speak for every blogger with miniscule readership out there) who have made a big deal about global warming pollution are those such as Fox News on television and radio network(s) with characters such as Rush Limbaugh who do indeed regularly treat the subject - but with gross exaggeration intended to ridicule (and other dishonest means to dissuade people from believing it's a real problem), just as you have used here. Other major media companies seldom cover the subject to any extent at all, let alone in depth or extensively. I defy you to find a single instance anywhere in which an elected official or a major media company has endeavored to stir up anything close to panic over the idea that global warming pollution is occurring. That's definitely BS straight from Fox News and the like, and you're doing their dirty work by spreading it.

psyon wrote:
... If the goal is to clean up the planet, then who cares if I am encouraging people to clean it up because I like to hike and look at animals, or because I think it will stop global warming?...

I forget, which is your reason for using ridiculing exaggeration above? Is it because you like to hike and look at animals, or because you think it will stop global warming pollution? I guess it's hard for me to keep straight...

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 4:26 pm 

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Right On Psyon, I guess?


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 4:44 pm 
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Doesn't look any more rapid to me based on this graph.

Image

Who knows..

I drive a Sonata Hybrid. I like it enough.


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 4:49 pm 
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Quote:
Al Gore


For the record, I never mentioned Al Gore.

Quote:
I defy you to find a single instance anywhere in which an elected official or a major media company has endeavored to stir up anything close to panic over the idea that global warming pollution is occurring.


http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=2938707
The headline is "Global Warming is a Crisis". Do you throw around the word crisis when you aren't trying to get people scared and in a panic?

How about this one?

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... conference

or this one

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... s/3893825/

or here

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/won ... ea-levels/

Sure you may view it as "Just pointing out the facts", but those facts are the ones that scare people. It's the ones that make people think if they don't drive a prius that coastal cities will flood. It's the facts that cause people to panic.

And just for good measure, let's not for get the "Dangerous Myth That Climate Change is Reversable"
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/0 ... versible/#

I mean, they aren't just telling us that we can't stop it, they are throwing in that word "Dangerous" just so we know how bad it's really going to be.


psyon wrote:
I forget, which is your reason for using ridiculing exaggeration above?


I wasn't ridiculing anything above, I was addressing comments I hear from people I know.

Quote:
Is it because you like to hike and look at animals, or because you think it will stop global warming pollution? I guess it's hard for me to keep straight...


I never said I was doing anything because I believed it would stop global warming. I asked a hypothetical question to illustrate that it doesn't matter WHY we are cleaning things up, just that we are. It doesn't matter if you are doing it to combat global warming, and I am simply doing it because don't like to look at garbage. I don't care if you are a climate change denier as long as you have some other reason for cleaning things up.


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 4:54 pm 
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Chris Smith wrote:
You want facts? Where are your facts that show it isn't happening or affecting some amphibians? The burden of proof is in your hands.


Btw Chris, I can't believe a man who cherishes science so much would challenge someone to prove a negative.


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 5:06 pm 

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Trey wrote:
Doesn't look any more rapid to me based on this graph.

Image

Who knows..

I drive a Sonata Hybrid. I like it enough.


We're talking on the scale of decades, which cannot be discerned from that graph.


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 6:27 pm 
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psyon wrote:
... I don't see why we need to believe the world is going to end and get into a panic...

psyon wrote:
Quote:
I defy you to find a single instance anywhere in which an elected official or a major media company has endeavored to stir up anything close to panic over the idea that global warming pollution is occurring.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=2938707
The headline is "Global Warming is a Crisis". Do you throw around the word crisis when you aren't trying to get people scared and in a panic?

...

Sure you may view it as "Just pointing out the facts", but those facts are the ones that scare people. It's the ones that make people think if they don't drive a prius that coastal cities will flood. It's the facts that cause people to panic.

So now you're going to try to pretend that reporting on an environmental crisis - which overwhelming scientific consensus finds it most certainly is - is equivalent to saying that the world is going to end? And that being scared is equivalent to panicking? I'm afraid you're going to have to do a lot better than that if you're going to have a chance at weaseling out from under your own words.

I saw where a number of your Google results (which I doubt you'd ever encountered before making your assertion about people "need[ing] to believe the world is going to end and get into a panic") emphasized the need to take prompt, meaningful action to avert disaster - yeah, that's real panic-inducing, end-of-the-world stuff, all right! :roll: - but I missed where anyone said that coastal cities will flood if people don't drive a Prius. I missed where anyone actually panicked over global warming pollution, too. Can you point those out for us?

psyon wrote:
... I mean, they aren't just telling us that we can't stop it, they are throwing in that word "Dangerous" just so we know how bad it's really going to be.

Oh sure, I see what you mean, like where the author of that article had the audacity to actually say "This doesn’t mean climate change is unstoppable..." And of course panic is the appropriate - heck, it's the one and only - way to respond to being told that something is dangerous. Panic must be just what the author was hoping to evoke, right? Press release: "Studies show that it's dangerous not to wear your seatbelt while driving." The motoring public: "Aieee! What'll I do?!?" :roll:

psyon wrote:
I wasn't ridiculing anything above, I was addressing comments I hear from people I know.

Exaggerating in order to ridicule was exactly what you were doing, just like Fox News et al. so frequently do with this subject, and I feel very sure you know that as well as I and everyone else who read it. I also feel very sure you've never heard anyone you know sincerely claim that the world is ending nor seen anyone you know panic because of global warming pollution. All you're doing is doubling down on the dishonesty.

I don't personally care whether or not you believe in global warming pollution. I do care, though, that you have attempted to dishonestly discredit those who do by parroting the BS of the folks at Fox News et al. who have a ve$ted interest in dissuading people from believing the problem exists or is serious. If you have an honest argument to make then make it, but leave off the ridiculing exaggeration and other deceits or expect to be called on them.

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 6:31 pm 
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gbin wrote:
which I doubt you'd ever encountered before making your assertion about people "need[ing] to believe the world is going to end and get into a panic"


Given that you are making assumptions about my reading and browsing habits, I think I am done here.


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 6:39 pm 
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psyon wrote:
Given that you are making assumptions about my reading and browsing habits, I think I am done here.

Right, you aim ridiculing exaggeration at people because they hold a different view than yourself, and I'm the bad guy for calling you on it. :roll:

Here's an idea: If you want to be treated well, then treat others well.

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 6:46 pm 
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Here's another idea for you, psyon: Try Googling ["global warming" "end of the world" panic] and see what fine company you're keeping.

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 6:48 pm 
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Are you serious? I made a statement and you jumped to the conclusion that I was ridiculing someone else, then you made assumptions about me, my habits, what I know, what I listen to or watch. You basically shot me down as only repeating babble from talking heads as if I have no logical thoughts of my own, all because I disagree with your point of view, and you don't think that YOU were ridiculing people? Hell, I find it really funny that just about any debate about global warming turns into "Stop repeating Fox News!!" if you show even the slightest dissent in your opinion. I don't watch Fox News do you? How do you know that I am repeating what they are saying, or are you just repeating the same old thing by stating that everyone who disagrees with you must be a stupid Fox News viewer? I'd swear you just came right off of reddit.com because that's pretty much right out of everyone's playbook there. I'm honestly not sure about your reading comprehension right now. It's either completely shot, or you were making some shitty assumptions about things. I never tried to discredit anyone. All I said, is I don't think we need a "world is ending" mentality to fix the problem, meaning we don't need to point out all the negative shit to people to make them change their minds, we can just as easily point out the positive aspects of cleaning things up to sway their opinions in the right direction. But what ever, I'm just a stupid friggin Fox News viewer, and I'll just go back to repeating what ever the "insert profanity here" I'm told to repeat, and you can go on repeating all the same old bullshit everyone else does too. Sound good? Have a good night then :)


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 7:19 pm 
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psyon wrote:
Are you serious? I made a statement and you jumped to the conclusion that I was ridiculing someone else...

Right, this wasn't a ridiculing exaggeration of people who acknowledge that global warming is a real and serious problem :roll: :
psyon wrote:
... I don't see why we need to believe the world is going to end and get into a panic...

...
psyon wrote:
... you don't think that YOU were ridiculing people?...

Where did I say that? Don't bother looking; you won't find it because I didn't say it. I have most definitely been ridiculing you - for your ridiculing exaggeration of others. What part of "If you have an honest argument to make then make it, but leave off the ridiculing exaggeration and other deceits or expect to be called on them." didn't you understand?

psyon wrote:
... All I said, is I don't think we need a "world is ending" mentality to fix the problem, meaning we don't need to point out all the negative shit to people to make them change their minds, we can just as easily point out the positive aspects of cleaning things up to sway their opinions in the right direction...

If that was all you meant then you could very easily have said that. (I would have disagreed with you and told you why but then left it at that, just as I did with your assertion that warming wouldn't harm species if they were free to migrate to conditions more of their liking.) Instead you provided the quote above. And when called on it - with clear explanation of why you were being called on it - instead of retracting your ridiculing exaggerations and clarifying your position you doubled down on the dishonesty, pretending that you've actually seen/heard/known folks predicting the end of the world and panicking over global warming pollution (even offering up evidence of folks warning people of it as a crisis/danger as if it were the same thing).

Let me try it again, just in case it gets through to you this time:

"If you have an honest argument to make then make it, but leave off the ridiculing exaggeration and other deceits or expect to be called on them."

Yes, it's really that simple.

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 8:25 pm 
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TLDR but...

http://desmogblog.com/2012/11/15/why-cl ... -pie-chart


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 Post subject: Re: Global warming effecting Amphibians (true or false)
PostPosted: March 13th, 2014, 9:28 pm 
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Wow, this thread has been really enlightening - I thought everyone in the science/amateur-science community "believed in" anthropomorphic, accelerated climate change!


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