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 Post subject: Re: Unsupport National Wildlife Fed. they support python ban
PostPosted: February 19th, 2014, 11:58 am 
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This is an open question, we know that the pythons are restricted to S.Florida, so the NWF must know this as well. I cant imagine that they do not.

So is there some other reason/s they are supportive of the bill?


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 Post subject: Re: Unsupport National Wildlife Fed. they support python ban
PostPosted: February 19th, 2014, 4:56 pm 
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What all the proponents of this bill from senators to so called "animal rights" groups fail to realize is that people have owned most of the species in question for more than 50 years all over the nation, and a few species have been in captivity in the U.S. for more than 100 years. Where is the pockets of invasive large constrictors established all over the U.S. if pet owners are so irresponsible and it's such a threat risk that it needs to be added to the Lacey Act according to their logic? Their worst fears have not come true because it is irrational. Why would we need to make it illegal to transport these species across all state lines at this point? Wherever they could have been established, they did. It is a problem in Florida. Just Florida. I have not heard of any reasonable claim why they should be added to the injurious list. It is just political agenda to further bias, based solely on the ignorance and animosity of a few groups such as PETA and HSUS and others who would use their (HSUS) flawed "research" to back this bill such as NWF.

I doubt removal of our support will cause the NWF to change their position on this issue, but perhaps if enough of their support is withdrawn among the herp community we can get their attention and they will at least investigate the impacts of the Bill on this group and the faulty "science" it is based on. That alone is enough reason to tell them we won't be sending them a check any time in the future unless they stop advocating for this bill. I would renew my support possibly in the future if they did in fact publicly announce their reversal on this issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Unsupport National Wildlife Fed. they support python ban
PostPosted: February 19th, 2014, 5:40 pm 

Joined: December 4th, 2012, 6:19 pm
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I pulled my support for them and let them know why, not that I expect it to make much of a difference. I'm more concerned that they are getting involved with animal rights activists (aka no hunting, no animals for medical advancements, no eating meat) than that they made a single, bad decision. The law itself will do nothing to prevent invasive species. It's simply adding snakes that are already in private collections and doesn't ban them from those states where they already reside. It would seem the laws purpose is to try hurting the reptile trade under the guise of preventing invasive species. An odd time in our history to attack small business, but animal rights activists have never really been known for rational thought. I wonder how many turn down medical treatments that were discovered in part with clinical trials involving animals... but hey they keep banking those checks that people thought were going to shelters!

I suppose all industries have their idiots -- there have been problems in every industry from guns to waste disposal to hog farmers. If we are to ban industries based on the harm caused, I suppose we won't have any oil left, we won't have any pet dogs, we won't have any agri-chemicals, heck, we probably won't even have anything left to eat. And when all that is said and done, the effects of millions and millions of people will still ensure nothing is "natural". The idea that things should just be left alone and never change seems like progress on the surface, but as people lose their connections to the land/animals, they actually get dumber. Hunters (serious ones) have a better understanding of population dynamcs than the average person in a city who takes a biology class. People need to get out in the environment interacting with animals to understand them, citizen science is becoming a great tool for this. At least to me, people keeping animals seems to increase the chances they'll pay attention to wildlife issues at some point in life.


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 Post subject: Re: Unsupport National Wildlife Fed. they support python ban
PostPosted: February 19th, 2014, 6:36 pm 
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luv_the_smellof_musk wrote:
I pulled my support for them and let them know why, not that I expect it to make much of a difference. I'm more concerned that they are getting involved with animal rights activists (aka no hunting, no animals for medical advancements, no eating meat) than that they made a single, bad decision. The law itself will do nothing to prevent invasive species. It's simply adding snakes that are already in private collections and doesn't ban them from those states where they already reside. It would seem the laws purpose is to try hurting the reptile trade under the guise of preventing invasive species. An odd time in our history to attack small business, but animal rights activists have never really been known for rational thought. I wonder how many turn down medical treatments that were discovered in part with clinical trials involving animals... but hey they keep banking those checks that people thought were going to shelters!

I suppose all industries have their idiots -- there have been problems in every industry from guns to waste disposal to hog farmers. If we are to ban industries based on the harm caused, I suppose we won't have any oil left, we won't have any pet dogs, we won't have any agri-chemicals, heck, we probably won't even have anything left to eat. And when all that is said and done, the effects of millions and millions of people will still ensure nothing is "natural". The idea that things should just be left alone and never change seems like progress on the surface, but as people lose their connections to the land/animals, they actually get dumber. Hunters (serious ones) have a better understanding of population dynamcs than the average person in a city who takes a biology class. People need to get out in the environment interacting with animals to understand them, citizen science is becoming a great tool for this. At least to me, people keeping animals seems to increase the chances they'll pay attention to wildlife issues at some point in life.



Do you think going on and on about PETA and meat eating and lab rats makes you somehow a harder herper?

What does parroting the same rhetoric have to do with weighing the merits of the NWF, with their position on this issue?

My focus almost always naturally gravitates towards the fate and well being of captive reptiles, because of what I have seen, and held in my own hands.

I have faced off against animal rights activists twice as a matter of public record (SF Animal Control&Welfare Commissions meetings on the SF Pet Ban 7/10/10, and again in June 2011) So I know who I am. Have you?

My personal opinion is that there are other concerns we should deal with internally. One idea is an en mass but dignified red flagging and commentary on many Youtube snake and reptile videos , that showcase reprehensible herp keeping conduct. We ignore so much. We are always looking for a way to unify but we always look away. We dont have to do that, Transparency is invincible.


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 Post subject: Re: Unsupport National Wildlife Fed. they support python ban
PostPosted: February 19th, 2014, 7:05 pm 
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luv_the_smellof_musk wrote:
... I'm more concerned that [NWF is] getting involved with animal rights activists (aka no hunting, no animals for medical advancements, no eating meat)...

A frankly ridiculous post.

Here's a bit from NWF's website concerning its actual view of hunting and hunters:

Quote:
Our nation is facing problems that hunters and anglers have unique opportunities to help resolve.

Hunters and anglers are a core constituency to preserving our conservation legacy. Since 1936, National Wildlife Federation has been at the forefront on issues concerning hunters and anglers, protecting and enhancing fish and wildlife habitat for all species. Whether it was passage of the Pittman Robertson Act in 1937 that still funds state fish and game agencies today, or the Wilderness Act of 1964 which has helped provide some of the premier hunting and fishing opportunities in the world, or the Clean Air and Clean Water Acts of the 1970s, or the "Open Fields" provision in the most recent Farm Bill that provides federal dollars to state agency for hunter access to private lands, or our continued work today, NWF has teamed up with hunters and anglers to make a positive difference for wildlife habitat. What started as a cartoonist's dream continues as an organization that takes on the tough issues and has the resources and passion to push them over the finish line.

National Wildlife Federation works with hunters and anglers on:

Forming coalitions that work together to improve water quality and habitat.
Policy efforts that aim to protect wildlife and wild habitats from global warming.
Conservation efforts that strive to conserve and protect American waters and wildlife habitats.
Connecting children with nature by providing outdoor opportunities for the next generation of hunters, anglers and wildlife conservationists.

Gee, they're falling right into line with HSUS and PETA, aren't they? :roll:

If you don't want to support an organization because you so strongly dislike the stance they've taken on an issue close to your heart, then don't. That doesn't give you the right to make crap up to dishonestly try to scare others away from them.

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: Unsupport National Wildlife Fed. they support python ban
PostPosted: February 19th, 2014, 7:14 pm 
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Joined: December 30th, 2010, 10:02 am
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Location: SoCal and Cape Cod
As far as the law goes:

Am I against it? Yes. It seems to be based on something entirely separate from science, and I can't condone that in any legislation regarding animals/plants/environment/science/etc.


As far as the keeping of large constrictors goes:

Know what you're doing. I think it's great for people who do talks, study herpetology, zoos, etc. For the average joe, I would not want them to own a large constrictor any more than I'd want them to own an alligator. Most "Average Joes", I believe, would be unprepared to deal with either.

That having been said, I'm not a huge supporter of forcing people to be smart. While I don't think many people should own large constrictors, I wouldn't outlaw it either.


As far as NWF goes:

Perhaps I am missing something, but thus far I have not seen anyone withdraw their support of NWF for any reason not having to do with their support of this ban. If this is truly the "straw that broke the camel's back", what are some specific other things they have done in order for you to withdraw support? I ask this as a current supporter of NWF, who finds no fault with the majority of what they do.

Emphasis on "the majority of what they do". It's already been said earlier, but if you want an organization you agree 100% with, you'll probably have to make it yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Unsupport National Wildlife Fed. they support python ban
PostPosted: February 19th, 2014, 7:15 pm 

Joined: December 4th, 2012, 6:19 pm
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Yep that's the kind of thing I expect from NWF, which is why I get concerned when they start getting in bed with this

"Hunting

As a matter of principle, The HSUS opposes the hunting of any living creature for fun, trophy, or sport because of the animal trauma, suffering, and death that result. A humane society should not condone the killing of any sentient creature in the name of sport."

HSUS position on hunting, from their Statement on Wild Animals.

As a side note: I don't think I should be responsible for any behavior other than own. So this bogie man dumper everyone knows, but not a single name can be accounted for, should really be of no concern to me. Did you ever hear the one about humans can lick hands, too?


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 Post subject: Re: Unsupport National Wildlife Fed. they support python ban
PostPosted: February 19th, 2014, 7:41 pm 
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Ted wrote:
As far as the law goes:

Am I against it? Yes. It seems to be based on something entirely separate from science, and I can't condone that in any legislation regarding animals/plants/environment/science/etc.


As far as the keeping of large constrictors goes:

Know what you're doing. I think it's great for people who do talks, study herpetology, zoos, etc. For the average joe, I would not want them to own a large constrictor any more than I'd want them to own an alligator. Most "Average Joes", I believe, would be unprepared to deal with either.

That having been said, I'm not a huge supporter of forcing people to be smart. While I don't think many people should own large constrictors, I wouldn't outlaw it either.


As far as NWF goes:

Perhaps I am missing something, but thus far I have not seen anyone withdraw their support of NWF for any reason not having to do with their support of this ban. If this is truly the "straw that broke the camel's back", what are some specific other things they have done in order for you to withdraw support? I ask this as a current supporter of NWF, who finds no fault with the majority of what they do.

Emphasis on "the majority of what they do". It's already been said earlier, but if you want an organization you agree 100% with, you'll probably have to make it yourself.


This is a well thought out post. Thanks for that. Perhaps I should have used a different phrase instead of the camel's back reference. There are no other straws (heavy or otherwise) that I am aware of against the NWF. I too was a supporter of NWF and liked many of the things they had accomplished, I grew up reading Ranger Rick magazine...until I looked into USARK's fight against this bill which would directly affect my profession. I found out NWF was arguing in favor of the ban on the side of HSUS. I couldn't believe it. I immediately withdrew my support. Perhaps it is petty to throw them away for just one poor decision but that decision is a doozy that will affect me personally. I educate in a region larger than just a single state. I travel to fairs and schools all over as well. So do many of my colleagues and friends in this industry. I work with reticulated pythons, green anacondas, Yellow anacondas, Rock Pythons, burmese pythons, and boa constrictors, most of which did not come from the state I live in. The market for professional breeders wouldn't be feasible confined in just one state. I work with several other reptile educators in several states. Also I am a strong advocate for science and was dismayed to see them fall prey to pseudoscientific biased rhetoric. If they would reverse their position on this matter, and switch gears to vigorously fighting such a biased bill from becoming law (Lacey act additions would be nearly impossible to repeal) I would consider supporting the NWF again.


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 Post subject: Re: Unsupport National Wildlife Fed. they support python ban
PostPosted: February 19th, 2014, 7:43 pm 
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luv_the_smellof_musk wrote:
Yep that's the kind of thing I expect from NWF, which is why I get concerned when they start getting in bed with this

"Hunting

As a matter of principle, The HSUS opposes the hunting of any living creature for fun, trophy, or sport because of the animal trauma, suffering, and death that result. A humane society should not condone the killing of any sentient creature in the name of sport."

HSUS position on hunting, from their Statement on Wild Animals.

As a side note: I don't think I should be responsible for any behavior other than own. So this bogie man dumper everyone knows, but not a single name can be accounted for, should really be of no concern to me. Did you ever hear the one about humans can lick hands, too?



I dont understand what your points are.

Regardless of how you feel about HSUS, you dont seem to get the objective picture. Why would a humane society or organization, large or small, be involved proactively with sport hunting? That they would want no involvement with that kind of activity is as rational as a cattle rancher not wanting to be involved with a soybean farm. Dont you get that?


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 Post subject: Re: Unsupport National Wildlife Fed. they support python ban
PostPosted: February 19th, 2014, 8:21 pm 
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Jeremy Westerman wrote:
This is a well thought out post. Thanks for that. Perhaps I should have used a different phrase instead of the camel's back reference. There are no other straws (heavy or otherwise) that I am aware of against the NWF. I too was a supporter of NWF and liked many of the things they had accomplished, I grew up reading Ranger Rick magazine...until I looked into USARK's fight against this bill which would directly affect my profession. I found out NWF was arguing in favor of the ban on the side of HSUS. I couldn't believe it. I immediately withdrew my support. Perhaps it is petty to throw them away for just one poor decision but that decision is a doozy that will affect me personally. I educate in a region larger than just a single state. I travel to fairs and schools all over as well. So do many of my colleagues and friends in this industry. I work with reticulated pythons, green anacondas, Yellow anacondas, Rock Pythons, burmese pythons, and boa constrictors, most of which did not come from the state I live in. The market for professional breeders wouldn't be feasible confined in just one state. I work with several other reptile educators in several states. Also I am a strong advocate for science and was dismayed to see them fall prey to pseudoscientific biased rhetoric. If they would reverse their position on this matter, and switch gears to vigorously fighting such a biased bill from becoming law (Lacey act additions would be nearly impossible to repeal) I would consider supporting the NWF again.


I do understand. I think many tangents got off track on this thread because of evocation of individual concerns. My focus on the reliquishment and glut of unwanted snakes, does not cloud my awareness of the scientific unsoundness of the bill, to be clear. I spend my days educating others, as the fallout from shows and pet chain purchases comes my way. But it isnt always like that. Sometimes its the best my life has to offer.

I know you know exactly what I mean.


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 Post subject: Re: Unsupport National Wildlife Fed. they support python ban
PostPosted: February 20th, 2014, 5:06 am 
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Kelly Mc wrote:
I do understand... My focus... does not cloud my awareness of the scientific unsoundness of the bill, to be clear...

Ditto! I don't want you to think I'm either unsympathetic toward your plight or in disagreement with the basis of your complaint, Jeremy. I'm just not going along with the idea that NWF should be abandoned by herpers en masse because of their poor judgement on this issue.

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: Unsupport National Wildlife Fed. they support python ban
PostPosted: February 20th, 2014, 5:20 am 
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Jeremy Westerman wrote:
This is a well thought out post. Thanks for that. Perhaps I should have used a different phrase instead of the camel's back reference. There are no other straws (heavy or otherwise) that I am aware of against the NWF. I too was a supporter of NWF and liked many of the things they had accomplished, I grew up reading Ranger Rick magazine...until I looked into USARK's fight against this bill which would directly affect my profession. I found out NWF was arguing in favor of the ban on the side of HSUS. I couldn't believe it. I immediately withdrew my support. Perhaps it is petty to throw them away for just one poor decision but that decision is a doozy that will affect me personally. I educate in a region larger than just a single state. I travel to fairs and schools all over as well. So do many of my colleagues and friends in this industry. I work with reticulated pythons, green anacondas, Yellow anacondas, Rock Pythons, burmese pythons, and boa constrictors, most of which did not come from the state I live in. The market for professional breeders wouldn't be feasible confined in just one state. I work with several other reptile educators in several states. Also I am a strong advocate for science and was dismayed to see them fall prey to pseudoscientific biased rhetoric. If they would reverse their position on this matter, and switch gears to vigorously fighting such a biased bill from becoming law (Lacey act additions would be nearly impossible to repeal) I would consider supporting the NWF again.


This makes a lot of sense, and I appreciate the explanation. I have to admit, coming from an angle where this doesn't directly affect my profession, it's hard for this to become a reason for me to stop supporting NWF. Though of course I am just as dismayed to see them in support of such an unscientific bill, and certainly don't condone it.


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 Post subject: Re: Unsupport National Wildlife Fed. they support python ban
PostPosted: February 20th, 2014, 6:29 am 
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Do you really think zoos, education programs, etc. in every other state should pay for expensive federal exemption permits just because Florida has an invasive problem? Do you think that private citizens should not own a boa as a pet even though they have in this country by the tens of thousands for more than 50 years? Why isn't it already spread to everywhere possible if pet owners are responsible for invasives by your logic then?


Yes, yes, and I never said that was my argument. Please do not put words in my mouth.


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 Post subject: Re: Unsupport National Wildlife Fed. they support python ban
PostPosted: February 20th, 2014, 7:02 am 
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gbin wrote:
I'm just not going along with the idea that NWF should be abandoned by herpers en masse because of their poor judgement on this issue.


What about "temporary abandonment?" Money talks, and if an organization stands to lose a significant number of members (and more importantly, the money they bring), maybe the organization decides to rethink its position on that particular issue? It does happen, occasionally.

Unfortunately, given the size and scope of the NWF, I doubt the absence of herpers' contributions will make a significant dent in their funding stream.

I DID invite the NWF to participate in the Herpers Survey...I'm pretty big-tent. :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Unsupport National Wildlife Fed. they support python ban
PostPosted: February 20th, 2014, 7:22 am 
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chris_mcmartin wrote:
gbin wrote:
I'm just not going along with the idea that NWF should be abandoned by herpers en masse because of their poor judgement on this issue.


What about "temporary abandonment?" Money talks, and if an organization stands to lose a significant number of members (and more importantly, the money they bring), maybe the organization decides to rethink its position on that particular issue? It does happen, occasionally.

Unfortunately, given the size and scope of the NWF, I doubt the absence of herpers' contributions will make a significant dent in their funding stream.

I DID invite the NWF to participate in the Herpers Survey...I'm pretty big-tent. :thumb:


While temporary abandonment can work on occasion, I agree with you that herpers are a large enough demographic of their supporters to make much of a noticeable dent in their membership, even if we all withdrew our support (though owners of herps may be a larger group). Not only that, but if they lost herper membership, they would also lose the people who would actually argue against these kinds of laws.

In cases like this, I think contact is more important than abandonment. What I mean is that instead of simply withdrawing support, anyone against their support of this legislation should contact them and tell them why. I think organizations often slight the herping community, but mostly through simple ignorance. Many people on here preach that education is one of the best conservation techniques, but we need to make sure that the large organizations are educated in herps as much as anyone else.


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 Post subject: Re: Unsupport National Wildlife Fed. they support python ban
PostPosted: February 20th, 2014, 7:35 am 
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Ted wrote:
Not only that, but if they lost herper membership, they would also lose the people who would actually argue against these kinds of laws.


Truly, the paradox of our time. 8-) That is an excellent point.

Quote:
instead of simply withdrawing support, anyone against their support of this legislation should contact them and tell them why. I think organizations often slight the herping community, but mostly through simple ignorance. Many people on here preach that education is one of the best conservation techniques, but we need to make sure that the large organizations are educated in herps as much as anyone else.


I like! NWF will be getting a copy of the Herpers Survey once the analysis is complete...as to what they actually DO with it, that's up to them.


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 Post subject: Re: Unsupport National Wildlife Fed. they support python ban
PostPosted: February 20th, 2014, 8:44 am 
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Ted wrote:
In cases like this, I think contact is more important than abandonment. What I mean is that instead of simply withdrawing support, anyone against their support of this legislation should contact them and tell them why. I think organizations often slight the herping community, but mostly through simple ignorance. Many people on here preach that education is one of the best conservation techniques, but we need to make sure that the large organizations are educated in herps as much as anyone else.

Very well said, Ted! :thumb:

Gerry


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