Opinion on handling Helodermatidae

Dedicated exclusively to field herping.

Moderator: Scott Waters

User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Opinion on handling Helodermatidae

Post by Kelly Mc »

My most intense rushes have come from moments when an animal doesnt know Im there. Or knows - and doesnt stir, or care.
User avatar
-EJ
Posts: 1078
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 12:17 pm

Re: Opinion on handling Helodermatidae

Post by -EJ »

The snapper belongs to a friend of mine. It was accidenty caught by a local fisherman.
mywan wrote:
-EJ wrote:That's my photo and I see nothing wrong with it when placed in context. Some of us just enjoy herps in general. Not just herps in the wild but herps in captivity. Many of these photos are generated by herp enthusiasts that span generations.

I'm sorry but I will always believe that there is no better rush than the hands on approach... and I'm not only talking hots...
Jeez that's a huge snapper, thought I had seen a big one when I was young, but that has it beat :shock:

I don't normally keep herps as pets, at least not for many years now. But the hobbyist catching and keeping them is certainly not the biggest issue for conservation. Don't have any problem with people keeping hots, and such, either. But I'm not going to encourage it, or fail to encourage caution when asked, either.

Take good care of big daddy there :P
User avatar
walk-about
Posts: 567
Joined: June 14th, 2010, 12:04 pm
Location: 'God's Country' aka western KY
Contact:

Re: Opinion on handling Helodermatidae

Post by walk-about »

WoW! I was more than shocked when I first read this post. Aztrox and hellibrooks make very good points. These reptiles are known to bite tenaciously and not let go. I do understand that Heloderm's venom has evolved primarily for defense (along with their bright warning colors of black and yellow). Heloderm venom is primarily neurotoxic if I'm not mistaken. Symptoms of Heloderm venom include extreme weakness, edema, drop in blood pressure, nausea, paralysis, hemorrhage of internal organs, etc. THis is a potentially lethal animal and should not be handled...EVER. I see no difference than handling any other 'HOT' such as a Crotalus or an Agkistrodon.

But the biggest problem I have with this post is the picture of the small child holding a Heloderm. This is an extremely irresponsible act. And the adult that permitted this little girl to do so, should be questioned and investigated by the authorities of the respective state she resides. EJ, I'm curious what the Child Protective Services would say about that photo? And why would anyone jeapordize the safety and life of a small child????

As a father of a little 7 year old girl, I could not, or would not ever do anything to endanger her life. She is my responsibility. And she is my gift. ANd I treasure her and every moment we share on this earth.

Dave
User avatar
-EJ
Posts: 1078
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 12:17 pm

Re: Opinion on handling Helodermatidae

Post by -EJ »

If it was brought to their attention and put into a malicious context... I might have to explain it... but only if an ignorant individual was trying to make a point.

A great deal of thought and trust went into that photo... there was risk... but I don't think the risk was any greater than allowing my daughter to play soccer or rock climb... or go out on a date unsupervised.

I guess this could be considered child endangerment...
Image
That's a stray dog that she had to convince me it was acceptable to approach. That's my poarch. I was out of town when it was befriended.

Then there is this one... unless being crapped on by a snake can be considered as abuse...
Image

The point... The photo has to be taken in context. I believe that context is the WHOLE story surrounding the photo.





walk-about wrote:WoW! I was more than shocked when I first read this post. Aztrox and hellibrooks make very good points. These reptiles are known to bite tenaciously and not let go. I do understand that Heloderm's venom has evolved primarily for defense (along with their bright warning colors of black and yellow). Heloderm venom is primarily neurotoxic if I'm not mistaken. Symptoms of Heloderm venom include extreme weakness, edema, drop in blood pressure, nausea, paralysis, hemorrhage of internal organs, etc. THis is a potentially lethal animal and should not be handled...EVER. I see no difference than handling any other 'HOT' such as a Crotalus or an Agkistrodon.

But the biggest problem I have with this post is the picture of the small child holding a Heloderm. This is an extremely irresponsible act. And the adult that permitted this little girl to do so, should be questioned and investigated by the authorities of the respective state she resides. EJ, I'm curious what the Child Protective Services would say about that photo? And why would anyone jeapordize the safety and life of a small child????

As a father of a little 7 year old girl, I could not, or would not ever do anything to endanger her life. She is my responsibility. And she is my gift. ANd I treasure her and every moment we share on this earth.

Dave
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Opinion on handling Helodermatidae

Post by Kelly Mc »

How can the photo be taken out of context when the child is actually holding the animal? Its a pic of a child holding a large beaded lizard. Thats the context. Its pretty cut & dry.
User avatar
-EJ
Posts: 1078
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 12:17 pm

Re: Opinion on handling Helodermatidae

Post by -EJ »

Not quite.

The lizard has been in captivity for close to 40 years. It was frequently handled in that 40 year period. It is not a wild animal as such. The keeper of that animal has many others of the same species... none of them are safe to handle in that manner.

If you are a biology student... get out of the field. Biology is all grey area and nothing is cut an dry.

Another point... to the general public... awwwww isn't that cute the little girl holding the big lizard...
Kelly Mc wrote:How can the photo be taken out of context when the child is actually holding the animal? Its a pic of a child holding a large beaded lizard. Thats the context. Its pretty cut & dry.
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Opinion on handling Helodermatidae

Post by Kelly Mc »

The neural pattern of the reptilian brain can be robotic.

Not like some dear old mare who can always be trusted to have a soft mouth with any child who holds out an apple to her.
User avatar
Owen
Posts: 1924
Joined: June 11th, 2010, 12:35 am
Location: San Jose', Northern Catcrapistan

Re: Opinion on handling Helodermatidae

Post by Owen »

-EJ wrote: I guess this could be considered child endangerment...
Image
That's a stray dog that she had to convince me it was acceptable to approach. That's my poarch. I was out of town when it was befriended.
That's a cute bullmastiff. They're pussycats. Sometimes stubborn, but predictable... and good with kids. Plus dogs can be reliably trained.
User avatar
-EJ
Posts: 1078
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 12:17 pm

Re: Opinion on handling Helodermatidae

Post by -EJ »

I wouldn't open the door until my daughter told me it was safe... 2 days.

I now want one.
Owen wrote:
-EJ wrote: I guess this could be considered child endangerment...
Image
That's a stray dog that she had to convince me it was acceptable to approach. That's my poarch. I was out of town when it was befriended.
That's a cute bullmastiff. They're pussycats. Sometimes stubborn, but predictable... and good with kids. Plus dogs can be reliably trained.
joeysgreen
Posts: 523
Joined: June 11th, 2010, 9:09 pm
Location: Edmonton, Alberta

Re: Opinion on handling Helodermatidae

Post by joeysgreen »

Me and EJ don't always see eye to eye, but I certainly wouldn't jump on him for having his daughter hold a beaded lizard. Any parent weighs the risks of the situation. If I was in the situation of a 40year old captive that has been clearly held by many others (I think the same animal is held by Russ Case in an above post), comforted by a knowledgeable keeper present and having first held and experienced it myself, I can see myself having little problem letting my 8 year old son having a go at it. If I was the least bit uncomfortable in the above situation, I could also see myself telling my son to wait until he's older.

Ian
User avatar
BillMcGighan
Posts: 2362
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 9:23 am
Location: Unicoi, TN

Re: Opinion on handling Helodermatidae

Post by BillMcGighan »

After seeing how docile and trustworthy a wild caught Black and White Tegu can become in captivity, I can empathize, but I still cringe risking kids' wellbeings for the novelty.

The worst for me was attending a deli-cup show in Steamwood, IL in the '80s.
A twit with orange spiked hair was walking around with a 7' Burmese over his shoulder. This animal was no doubt as tame as they get.

There were three little girls, maybe 10 years old, behind the twit who had stopped to talk with someone. The girls had been handling some mammals, rabbits and the like, at another booth.

The snake struck at the head of one girl, but came up short by 4 inches. The neon twit never knew it happened, till I grabbed the python's head and told the fine young man what happened. He, of course, used the old dog owner line, "he won't bite."

It would have gotten a little dicey if a guy behind a table didn't come forth and tell the burm owner that he saw it.

Point being, of course, is that these animals are not tamed, but "manned", and the owner needs to make sure they have all variables covered, before risking a bite on a kid.
User avatar
chrish
Posts: 3295
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 11:14 pm
Location: San Antonio, TX
Contact:

Re: Opinion on handling Helodermatidae

Post by chrish »

Kelly Mc wrote:A small spray bottle of alcohol. Its also good to have in a large boid room. No damage from pens no overhead coiling . Quick and low impact.
Alcohol hand gel also works, particularly for removing angry Anguids from earlobes.

Image

And no...that isn't the lizard's blood.
User avatar
-EJ
Posts: 1078
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 12:17 pm

Re: Opinion on handling Helodermatidae

Post by -EJ »

That's a fkn ear... you cannot leave the story as is... oh wait... you didn't mention the story behind the photo.
User avatar
-EJ
Posts: 1078
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 12:17 pm

Re: Opinion on handling Helodermatidae

Post by -EJ »

This is kinda getting off topic but I couldn't resist putting in my own horror story of Herps Gone Wild...
Image

This is when it let go.
Image

I was trying to reposition it for a photo... it had never struck at me in the past...

(i still want the story of the Alligator Lizard and the ear... I suspect alcohol was involved)
hellihooks
Posts: 8025
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 8:12 am
Location: Hesperia, California.
Contact:

Re: Opinion on handling Helodermatidae

Post by hellihooks »

BillMcGighan wrote:After seeing how docile and trustworthy a wild caught Black and White Tegu can become in captivity, I can empathize, but I still cringe risking kids' wellbeings for the novelty.

The worst for me was attending a deli-cup show in Steamwood, IL in the '80s.
A twit with orange spiked hair was walking around with a 7' Burmese over his shoulder. This animal was no doubt as tame as they get.

There were three little girls, maybe 10 years old, behind the twit who had stopped to talk with someone. The girls had been handling some mammals, rabbits and the like, at another booth.

The snake struck at the head of one girl, but came up short by 4 inches. The neon twit never knew it happened, till I grabbed the python's head and told the fine young man what happened. He, of course, used the old dog owner line, "he won't bite."

It would have gotten a little dicey if a guy behind a table didn't come forth and tell the burm owner that he saw it.

Point being, of course, is that these animals are not tamed, but "manned", and the owner needs to make sure they have all variables covered, before risking a bite on a kid.
Here's a story, along those lines, that EJ (as a tort guy) might relate to...
While working for Jett's Petting Zoo decades ago... we had an adult Aldabra Isl Tort named Rocky (150 lbs?)... been with the zoo for over 25 yrs... super SUPER tame, and used to people scratching, patting his head, and little kids trying to climb on his back.

One day, while 'turd-herding' in the pen... I noticed Rocky eyeballing this little 2-3 yr old girl's banana-yellow sandals and turning his head in preparation for a nice big bite (he LOVED bananas) Rushed across the pen a snatched the little girl out of harms way in the NICK OF TIME, with Rocky chomping air, where her foot had been a milli-sec before. Point is... reptiles ain't that bright, and can sometimes injure the inattentive and/or oblivious by accident, responding to their own natural instincts. HYPER-vigilance is required any time a small child interacts with any animal... from anteater to zebu.
Hell... we used to pose kids for pics with Servals, Macaws, Iguanas... you name it... but would I trust any of those animals for two seconds, unattended with a child... Hell NO!
I TRUST you were right outside that pic... watching attentively...which in my book is fine. If she was walking round the house for hours with that beaded, unattended... not good.

BTW walk-about... it's helli Hooks, not brooks... but... I HAVE Been to Helli brooks...
Image
:lol: :lol: :lol: jim
User avatar
DaveR
Posts: 230
Joined: October 9th, 2010, 12:00 pm
Location: Rochester, NY

Re: Opinion on handling Helodermatidae

Post by DaveR »

Baby heloderms are awesome.
condyle
Posts: 206
Joined: September 25th, 2010, 3:46 pm
Location: Santa Cruz ca

Re: Opinion on handling Helodermatidae

Post by condyle »

EveryTHING bites.
User avatar
-EJ
Posts: 1078
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 12:17 pm

Re: Opinion on handling Helodermatidae

Post by -EJ »

The first line of the tortoise story set the stage... been there.
User avatar
Nshepard
Posts: 377
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 12:08 pm

Re: Opinion on handling Helodermatidae

Post by Nshepard »

Okay, I'll go ahead and weight in on this. As someone that worked up close and personal with a small museum collection of 9 Gilas, I can say I would NEVER trust them to not bite. Most of those nine were a pain in the ass and would not hesitate to bite. HOWEVER, 4 of those 9 were confiscated or 'rescued' wild Gilas from Arizona and acted as such. But I will say this, hooking them was so damn easy, there is little reason to ever free handle them. We did have to pin and handle animals with restraint while doing nail clippings, blood work, and other vet related procedures and it was a painless process. That all said, some of the individuals pictured here and elsewhere on the internet free handling Gilas and Beadeds have been doing it a long time and have produced them in captivity for multiple generations. To judge someone with that much experience doesn't seem right. However, with the recent media sensationalism we've seen in the last 10 years over reptile keeping we as keepers should reduce risky handling as much as possible - bite cases will only make things like legal reptile keeping harder in the future.
User avatar
gbin
Posts: 2292
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 4:28 pm

Re: Opinion on handling Helodermatidae

Post by gbin »

Out of curiosity, how many folks here are familiar with Grace Olive Wiley's story? More than a little relevance there to the subject of this thread, I think.

Gerry
User avatar
M Wolverton
Posts: 417
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 2:46 pm
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Opinion on handling Helodermatidae

Post by M Wolverton »

gbin wrote:Out of curiosity, how many folks here are familiar with Grace Olive Wiley's story? More than a little relevance there to the subject of this thread, I think.

Gerry
I am familiar. I wouldn't free-handle even a pet gila, I'll leave that activity to others.
User avatar
-EJ
Posts: 1078
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 12:17 pm

Re: Opinion on handling Helodermatidae

Post by -EJ »

I was wondering how long that story would take to enter the topic... not quite the same thing... but close.
gbin wrote:Out of curiosity, how many folks here are familiar with Grace Olive Wiley's story? More than a little relevance there to the subject of this thread, I think.

Gerry
Verhoodled
Posts: 306
Joined: August 7th, 2010, 3:48 pm
Location: Tucson, AZ

Re: Opinion on handling Helodermatidae

Post by Verhoodled »

gbin wrote:Out of curiosity, how many folks here are familiar with Grace Olive Wiley's story? More than a little relevance there to the subject of this thread, I think.

Gerry
I am, but all credit to Kauffeld. I hadn't heard of her prior to reading him.
User avatar
Jeremy Westerman
Posts: 634
Joined: October 12th, 2010, 11:05 am
Location: Utah
Contact:

Re: Opinion on handling Helodermatidae

Post by Jeremy Westerman »

We have all handled something that we certainly don't want to be bitten by, I'm sure. Just about everyone has pinned a rattlesnake and held it back in the day or whatever. Sure the consequences can be dire but we weren't thinking about that at the time (really thinking about it.) In the wild it would be tough to justify handling hots for most reasons but safe removal from an unsafe environment for the animal and nearby people could be one good reason to handle a wild hot if you have the necessary training. With venomous snakes you should obviously use tools such as snake hooks, tongs, bag sticks etc.to increase the distance but I'm sure most of you have foolishly improvised with a stick or shoe, I know I have in the past. With the Helodermids it becomes trickier there are no good tools to use that can increase the distance perhaps a broom and a trash bin or bucket to put it in but what if the situation is the Gila is in a sprinkler box? Fat load of good a broom will do then, you just have to go back to old school pinning and grab it. Captive animals in zoos, aquariums, serpentariums, private collections etc. require handling on occasion to clean the enclosure or inspect the animals' health or whatever. I believe that any reptile could be "handled" in a fashion that is relatively safe for the animal and the handler but the potential is always there; one lapse in concentration and you've been bitten. One must just seriously weigh the consequences and ask if the handling is necessary or justified before, during and after any such activity. Just because you could doesn't necessarily mean you should. I have handled both Helodermids and I believe if done with respect the chances of a bite are minimal and the risk small. We treat them just like any nasty monitor (you don't want to be bitten there either but obviously less risk) quickly pin and restrain then handle as short as possible for what is necessary. You just cannot work with crocs, gators, monitors, snappers, venomous etc. without taking some risks, but I think that the risk can be minimized by training, good techniques, concentration and respect. Don't forget the protocol for when the worst actually happens! You should have that list right there prepared with procedures on first aid and how to get help and numbers to call. On the flip side, hesitation and over-cautiousness can have serious negative effects when handling dangerous animals too. I handle venous sometimes as part of training classes but during daily maintenance we use tools, shift cages, shields, blocks, etc. and handle as little as is possible for our own safety and the animals well being.

possible painful envenomation
ImageImage
Image

possible fatal envenomation
Image
Image
Image
Image

possible amputation or severe tissue damage
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

possible very painful bite
Image

possible rabies transmission
Image
User avatar
regalringneck
Posts: 563
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 6:20 am

Re: Opinion on handling Helodermatidae

Post by regalringneck »

... wow thats pretty amazing jeremy ... muy impressivoe ... you somehow managed to get u'r handsome face in dang near ever one of those shots ... a cynic myte even think ... from u'r perspective ... its just all about ewe :roll:

Image
User avatar
Jeremy Westerman
Posts: 634
Joined: October 12th, 2010, 11:05 am
Location: Utah
Contact:

Re: Opinion on handling Helodermatidae

Post by Jeremy Westerman »

regalringneck wrote:... wow thats pretty amazing jeremy ... muy impressivoe ... you somehow managed to get u'r handsome face in dang near ever one of those shots ... a cynic myte even think ... from u'r perspective ... its just all about ewe :roll:
What? do you mean that this post isn't about macho guys holding cool dangerous stuff? maybe I misread the title. But M.J. Franetovich got to hold one in his avatar photo, and EJ was too and and Gila 91 did it, and Kent Van Sooy...are you saying there is no good reason to hold a dangerous animal? That's not fair they got to. :cry:

Seriously though the legit reasons to hold a venomous animal are few: Vet care, animal removal, professional venom extraction for medical purposes, education, training, professional wildlife study

but try telling that to the likes of Mark O'Shea or Bill Haast or Steve Irwin
Some people will decide the personal risk is worth it even if it isn't a legit reason.
Macho Macho man, I wanna be a macho man :crazyeyes:
I think that the tone of this post was to try and justify needlessly dangerous behavior which some will view as asinine or reckless and some find exhilarating or just plain no big deal so why not? Most clever keepers could probably find ways to never actually touch their hots and remove the danger factor nearly completely but personally I do not think they are atom bombs that need to be kept in a bank vault with triple layered glass panels and video surveillance only to be handled with chainmail gloves-under welding gloves-under kevlar gloves like some law makers, animal control agents and cynics think should be. I think if the public safety concern is addressed responsibly and adequately than the personal safety questions are up to the individual.
I am handsome though.
hellihooks
Posts: 8025
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 8:12 am
Location: Hesperia, California.
Contact:

Re: Opinion on handling Helodermatidae

Post by hellihooks »

Image
Why??? Cause I figured it might be the only chance I'll ever get... and I'd regret not 'going for it' for the rest of my life, if I didn't... :roll:
Everybody does cost/benefit analysis's for every single thing they do in life... drive a car (VERY dangerous)... dlb down on snake eyes at a blackjack table... handle a dangerous critter...you name it. trick is knowing when the benefit is worth the risk. that's why 'adrenaline junkies' die young... :roll:
My threshold for risk is dropping exponentially, as I get older, as I HOPE to live to a ripe old age... :D jim
User avatar
regalringneck
Posts: 563
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 6:20 am

Re: Opinion on handling Helodermatidae

Post by regalringneck »

... jeremy, good on you for such a tempered response ... why is it us good look'rz are also the most fun & chill : }
... no argument w/ most of u'r txt, im just a stickler for defending kids and being responsible when displaying hots.
My (expert) opinion, one born thru painful time ... is we shouldnt bare hand hots, nor show it on the i-net, others will discover the elasticity of viper heads, or the crazy jerks of an elapid & will wind up in the ER, no need to up the numbers, always use tools, & never minors in venomous education/promotion activities.

Image


helihooks, yeah what he said 8-)
User avatar
gbin
Posts: 2292
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 4:28 pm

Re: Opinion on handling Helodermatidae

Post by gbin »

Yeah, for my own part I'd actually like to try eating fugu sometime (when my wife isn't present to kill me before a poor preparation of the dish ever could ;) ), so I'm not exactly averse to risk even just for its own sake. But no matter how much I trusted the chef, I'd never share fugu with children nor even eat it myself in front of them.

Gerry
User avatar
chris_mcmartin
Posts: 2447
Joined: June 9th, 2010, 12:13 am
Location: Greater Houston TX Area
Contact:

Re: Opinion on handling Helodermatidae

Post by chris_mcmartin »

Handling hots is like smoking. Everybody know's it's bad and could eventually kill you, but man, does it look cool. :lol:
Post Reply