Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

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DracoRJC
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Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by DracoRJC »

This may or may not be a sensitive topic, but I'm wondering what, if anything, you guys might have to say or share about our canebrakes here in VA. I go to Christopher Newport University in Newport News, so I'm pretty close to the remaining populations in the state. I will be joining a guy down in Chesapeake for his tracking research this spring. If things go as planned, I will be taking on the work towards my undergraduate research as well as a thesis project for my Masters in Env. Science. I've read several papers on the subject, and I've read every scrap of literature I can find on these guys in the state (and elsewhere), but I value input from the folks at FHF, so if anybody has pictures, stories, more pictures, or anything at all I'd love to hear it! Waiting for them to emerge this spring is unbearable, so anything to keep my mind occupied is very much welcome :)

Ryan
Daniel T
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes

Post by Daniel T »

DracoRJC wrote:This may or may not be a sensitive topic
Ryan
Here's a few pics:

Fat Female (There's also 2 copperheads in this photo.)
Image

Image

I have more somewhere.
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DracoRJC
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes

Post by DracoRJC »

Unfortunately I've seen plenty of the.... lets call them pissing matches around here pertaining to horridus. I've been on enough forums to know how internet arguing goes - doesn't really faze me anymore. Anywhere on the internet where people talk to one another, fights happen. If I don't get my question answered and I have to sneak out of a cartoon-style dustcloud fight, so be it.

I already know the localities anyway (when I google anything like 'virginia canebrakes' all of the links for the next 10 pages are purple), so I'm not looking for anything that might possibly put a snake in jeopardy whatsoever. Just some pictures, maybe a cool story, that's all. There's just not much circulating about them so it's nice to see anything new, and I don't think there's anything about them on the forum, before the crash at least. And who wouldn't want to share a rare rattlesnake encounter? When my research gets underway, you can bet you'll see a big ol' canebrake post from yours truly.

Ryan

edit: Changed the title, hows that? :lol:
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justinm
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by justinm »

Maybe when you're research gets going you won't sound ignorant and keep calling them "canebrakes" as if that is a valid subspecies or description...
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VanAR
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by VanAR »

Maybe when you're research gets going you won't sound ignorant and keep calling them "canebrakes" as if that is a valid subspecies or description...
Relax, its just a common name.... I often call southern timbers canebrakes, regardless of the scientific validity.

But then, I'm a huge fan of local vernacular and also call ratsnakes in the mid-south "cow-suckers", collared lizards in the ozarks "mountain boomers", etc. In the ozarks, sometimes it also helps to call timbers "velvet tails", diamondbacks "coontails", and pigmies "rock" or "sand" rattlers.

Point being, terminological exactness in common names doesn't need to reach the levels found in scientific names. Then we'd be just as arrogant/creepy as those bird people, who've wasted ungodly amounts of time and money coming up with unnecessarily standardized common names....
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by Daniel T »

justinm wrote:Maybe when you're research gets going you won't sound ignorant and keep calling them "canebrakes" as if that is a valid subspecies or description...
As if you don't sound ignorant. It seems that every post/reply I see from you, is some rude remark to try and "school" others. I mean is it really a big deal if you say canebrake? Umm.... no. Just about every website that's herp related says "Timber/canebrake." You just want an excuse to argue with someone to try and prove your intelligence; which obviously isn't working. For that, I bid you good day.
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DracoRJC
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by DracoRJC »

Ugh, does every thread about rattlesnakes have to go back within the first page? I ask for pictures or interesting stories pertaining to VAs southeastern horridus (there, happy?), and I get somebody trying to tell me I'm wrong. Jesus.

Did I not say I've read every scrap of literature I could find? You dont think I might have come across that information by now?

So, does anybody have anything relevant to what I asked? That would be fantastic.
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by Nick Scobel »

Daniel T wrote:
justinm wrote:Maybe when you're research gets going you won't sound ignorant and keep calling them "canebrakes" as if that is a valid subspecies or description...
As if you don't sound ignorant. It seems that every post/reply I see from you, is some rude remark to try and "school" others. I mean is it really a big deal if you say canebrake? Umm.... no. Just about every website that's herp related says "Timber/canebrake." You just want an excuse to argue with someone to try and prove your intelligence; which obviously isn't working. For that, I bid you good day.
Justin means well Daniel, just doesn't always come off as the friendly type. Horridus in general seem to ruffle the feathers of not only a lot of people on this forum, but also biologists who work closely with the northeast populations in particular. In fact, from personal experience they often lurk on this forum and other forums to see what the discussion topics. I don't have any stories on VA horridus, but I do have a story about a timber from the NJ pine barrens. However, discussing it on a public internet forum would only generate bad publicity not only for myself, but it also adds attention to a snake species which is best left alone except to the people who are actively researching them.
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MHollanders
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by MHollanders »

justinm wrote:Maybe when you're research gets going you won't sound ignorant and keep calling them "canebrakes" as if that is a valid subspecies or description...
Cute.

So long as "you're" grammar stays this good I'm sure people will appreciate "you're" input.
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Chunkhead68
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by Chunkhead68 »

I still use Canebrake for the southern flavor and Timber for the northern. When someone mentions a Canebrake a whole suite of morphological characters come to mind, just as when someone says Timber. You can call them both Timbers, of course, and that may be scientifically sound, but when you do so you'll have to qualify that statement as their morphologies and preferences for habitat are different.
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by Phil Peak »

justinm wrote:Maybe when you're research gets going you won't sound ignorant and keep calling them "canebrakes" as if that is a valid subspecies or description...
Canebrake as a subspecies may well be subjective. As a description however, it would be perfectly accurate.

Phil
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by justinm »

Phil,

That's the exact reason I disagree. I have posted quite a few animals that aren't anywhere near the states let alone areas that Canesbrakes were first "found". That look just like what you guys call "Canebrakes". Timbers are really all over the place with how they look, and using the "look" as a way of making them different or special just ruffles my feathers. I think the last time this topic came up all the academics agreed the term has no place. We might as well be saying "Black Snake" or Chicken Snake...

Mhollanders, it's an internet forum, not a term paper. I don't have but maybe 20 minutes a day of free time (when I'm lucky) to read and post here, so I'm sorry if my grammar isn't up to your standards.
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Phil Peak
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by Phil Peak »

justinm wrote:Phil,

That's the exact reason I disagree. I have posted quite a few animals that aren't anywhere near the states let alone areas that Canesbrakes were first "found". That look just like what you guys call "Canebrakes". Timbers are really all over the place with how they look, and using the "look" as a way of making them different or special just ruffles my feathers. I think the last time this topic came up all the academics agreed the term has no place. We might as well be saying "Black Snake" or Chicken Snake...

Mhollanders, it's an internet forum, not a term paper. I don't have but maybe 20 minutes a day of free time (when I'm lucky) to read and post here, so I'm sorry if my grammar isn't up to your standards.
Justin,

It has actually been one of my observations that this is one of the characteristics that differentiates between the two. Populations of those animals that are often refered to as canebrakes are relatively uniform in appearance, whereas populations of timber rattlesnakes often display numerous phenotypes within the same population. For what its worth, the photo's you posted earlier, as well as those from another poster from Indiana, looked more like midwestern timbers than canebrakes to me. At least within the phenotypical variation I alluded to earlier as regarding timber rattlesnakes. We see a lot of that in Kentucky as well. At any rate, I'm not in a position to argue whether the canebrake deserves subspecific status, but on the other hand I don't view it as an incredible stretch to at least use canebrake as a description when refering to southeastern horridus. There are distinct morphological differences as well as pronounced differences in habitat preference between these populations of snakes. Perhaps coloration and habitat utilization is not enough to distinguish the canebrake as a subspecies, but I see no reason to disclude canebrake as a description.
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by MonarchzMan »

Canebrake is a common name. I don't see why people get irritated by common names. The Cottonmouth is also called a Water Moccasin depending on the region. Both are valid names and both refer to Agkistrodon piscivorus. There are many instances where there are common names that are regionally different and do not necessarily reference subspecies status. There are plenty of instances where there is regional variation and species have different names based on where they are found (for instance, the Strawberry Dart Frog, or the Fer-de-Lance/Terciopelo/Equis).

Someone should not be chewed out for use of a common name, especially when he did not even start to reference subspecies. It is the nature of common names to be variable, especially when there is regional variation.
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Chunkhead68
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by Chunkhead68 »

But cottonmouth and water moccasin refer to animals that look the same, whereas the usage of Timber and Canebrake conjure up images that display phenotypic differences, but your point is well taken. I bet if you look at the two groups of animals through a strictly cladistic lens you'd find they are two different animals. Science changes its mind all the time.
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by MHollanders »

justinm wrote:Phil,

That's the exact reason I disagree. I have posted quite a few animals that aren't anywhere near the states let alone areas that Canesbrakes were first "found". That look just like what you guys call "Canebrakes". Timbers are really all over the place with how they look, and using the "look" as a way of making them different or special just ruffles my feathers. I think the last time this topic came up all the academics agreed the term has no place. We might as well be saying "Black Snake" or Chicken Snake...

Mhollanders, it's an internet forum, not a term paper. I don't have but maybe 20 minutes a day of free time (when I'm lucky) to read and post here, so I'm sorry if my grammar isn't up to your standards.
Firstly, differentiating you're and your should not be a challenge reserved for writing term papers. Secondly, if you're going to spend 20 minutes of your day posting, you may as well make constructive remarks instead of your usual douche-baggery.
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by TJP »

Draco lives in a state that DOES have the separation of timber's/canebrake's and recognizes atricaudatus as a sub-species. Whether correct or not, it's pretty typical for Southeastern herpers to refer to horridus as "canebrakes" and I would especially think so from a young, hopeful, enthusiatic herper, who might actually establish that atricaudatus is a sub from research performed from his findings in the future (if his research was to go that direction, I'm throwing out a possible scenario) OR because he was taught that there are both. Canebrake in the East is a common term, give him a break. I see horridus in New York and they're timber's, I see horridus south of VA and they're "canebrake's". Who is to tell me that I or anyone else is wrong using a common name based off of characteristic's in color, occular ridges, habitat, locality, sexual maturity, or just because someone wants to call it an effin' canebrake because it's a term they use in a particular state?
A friend of mine has a NE timber and a southern canebrake and there is definitely a marked difference in appearance between the two when side by side, and not just in color variation.
It's pretty pathetic that people really get that bent out of shape because they live in a different part of the country and don't feel that a common name that's been used since before they were born should be used. I can only imagine how these people can handle their frustrations when something REALLY important and life changing happens, like not having an umbrella when it rains, breaking a shoestring, or not having milk for their fruity pebbles. The term "canebrake" will never go away, especially with Southern herpers. Get used to it......
Might I also suggest googling canebrake? And, not the rattlesnake. Some might not know where or why "canebrake" rattlesnake came to be.
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by MonarchzMan »

Chunkhead68 wrote:But cottonmouth and water moccasin refer to animals that look the same, whereas the usage of Timber and Canebrake conjure up images that display phenotypic differences, but your point is well taken. I bet if you look at the two groups of animals through a strictly cladistic lens you'd find they are two different animals. Science changes its mind all the time.
I agree, which is why I tossed in dart frogs and fer-de-lance. Those show significant phenotypic variation.

Taxonomists drive me nuts sometimes because I swear the lump or split things just to get publications... I know it may offend the taxonomists out there, but with how much things shift back and forth, it is enough to make a person's head spin.
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by DracoRJC »

So answer me this - is it even possible for someone to say the word "canebrake" in a herpetological circle and not turn it into a group of fighting baboons. I just asked for a picture or an experience.
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by ThatFrogGuy »

DracoRJC wrote:So answer me this - is it even possible for someone to say the word "canebrake" in a herpetological circle and not turn it into a group of fighting baboons. I just asked for a picture or an experience.
I don't think you can even mention rattlesnake :crazyeyes:
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by DracoRJC »

ThatFrogGuy wrote:
DracoRJC wrote:So answer me this - is it even possible for someone to say the word "canebrake" in a herpetological circle and not turn it into a group of fighting baboons. I just asked for a picture or an experience.
I don't think you can even mention rattlesnake :crazyeyes:

Fair enough :lol:
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by DaneConley »

I live right next to Newport News Park, and the Virginia's Timber/Canebrake name is really confusing here at times. Even though Virginia doesnt recongnize any subspecies of horridus, the southern population near us is still protected as an endangered species. I generally call it the Timber Rattlesnake, because that is what its DNA says it is. But if Im talking to someone who says it is a Canebrake, Im not going to say they are wrong and Im going to say Canebrake as well. I cant really argue with them when the parks around here say they are Canebrakes.
Image
Oh and for that rattlesnake reasearch in Chesapeake, I may be also going there. A guy I know said he would like for me to come along, and he said there shouldnt be much trouble with it, but there might be a problem with me bieng 16. Last I heard from him it was most likely that I was going. I havnt heard from him since, I dont want to put my hopes up for it and end up in the end that I cant. Thats sorta of hard to do though when looking for rattlesnakes could happen haha. But incase I cant go, have fun, and take some good photos.

-Dane
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by DracoRJC »

DaneConley wrote:I live right next to Newport News Park, and the Virginia's Timber/Canebrake name is really confusing here at times. Even though Virginia doesnt recongnize any subspecies of horridus, the southern population near us is still protected as an endangered species. I generally call it the Timber Rattlesnake, because that is what its DNA says it is. But if Im talking to someone who says it is a Canebrake, Im not going to say they are wrong and Im going to say Canebrake as well. I cant really argue with them when the parks around here say they are Canebrakes.
Image
Oh and for that rattlesnake reasearch in Chesapeake, I may be also going there. A guy I know said he would like for me to come along, and he said there shouldnt be much trouble with it, but there might be a problem with me bieng 16. Last I heard from him it was most likely that I was going. I havnt heard from him since, I dont want to put my hopes up for it and end up in the end that I cant. Thats sorta of hard to do though when looking for rattlesnakes could happen haha. But incase I cant go, have fun, and take some good photos.

-Dane
Is that guy Chris Petersen by any chance? Also if you do go, maybe we could meet up, maybe shoot me a PM?
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by justinm »

I think both of you guys are young, hopefully someone will allow you the opportunity to see their fieldwork. This is a good situation for you guys to be in, keep your eyes open and you should learn a lot from it.
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by DracoRJC »

justinm wrote:I think both of you guys are young, hopefully someone will allow you the opportunity to see their fieldwork. This is a good situation for you guys to be in, keep your eyes open and you should learn a lot from it.
Thats more what I like to hear from you - the kind words are appreciated :beer:
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by TJP »

" Even though Virginia doesnt recongnize any subspecies of horridus, the southern population near us is still protected as an endangered species. "

Dane, any idea when the state decided to drop atricaudatus?
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Chunkhead68
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by Chunkhead68 »

I don't know anyone personally who would bat an eyelash if you used the term Canebrake.
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by BillMcGighan »

Relax, its just a common name.... I often call southern timbers canebrakes, regardless of the scientific validity.
here, here



This discussion seems to have two facets:

1. On a FORUM that is just “friendly” conversation (and not a scientific dissertation) amongst folks who share a common interest, all is fair if you just communicate with your audience. To most easterners, using the common term, "Canebrake", conjures up an image of a very different creature than our eastern mountain “timbers”. (Oh that glaciation thing again!!! :) )

Even using “atricaudatus” in the informal sense works for old timer herpers.
I understand that it’s much fuzzier in the mid-west.


2. Although I’d be the first to agree with a taxonomic norm, accepted by CNAH and SSAR professionals, and a definitive tri-nomial of genus, species, SSP, based on morphology or jelly jocking, it might well be argued that common names might be up for regional interpretation. Most of the older authors (Ditmars, Kauffeld, Wright, etc.) used multiple common names from the real world.

It might even be argued that for the professional zoological world to determine a “common” name is a bit ad verecundiam.

edited PS
DracoRJC, I think all herpers should be required to watch "Rango". :thumb:
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DracoRJC
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by DracoRJC »

edited PS
DracoRJC, I think all herpers should be required to watch "Rango". :thumb:
Jake is my favorite movie villain, hands down 8-)
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DaneConley
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by DaneConley »

TJP wrote:" Even though Virginia doesnt recongnize any subspecies of horridus, the southern population near us is still protected as an endangered species. "

Dane, any idea when the state decided to drop atricaudatus?
I believe it was in the 1970's
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Bryan Hamilton
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by Bryan Hamilton »

Here is a Virginia "canebrake" that my dad photographed last summer on a fire:

Image
TJP
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by TJP »

DaneConley wrote:
TJP wrote:" Even though Virginia doesnt recongnize any subspecies of horridus, the southern population near us is still protected as an endangered species. "

Dane, any idea when the state decided to drop atricaudatus?
I believe it was in the 1970's
No, it was on the Virginia State website within the last four or five years.....that's why I brought it up a few times in posts. Last time I was on there, they recognized both.....
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Bryan Hamilton
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by Bryan Hamilton »

According to the Reptiles of Virginia by Mitchell, atricaudatus was afforded protection in the state in 1992.
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DaneConley
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by DaneConley »

TJP wrote:
DaneConley wrote:
TJP wrote:" Even though Virginia doesnt recongnize any subspecies of horridus, the southern population near us is still protected as an endangered species. "

Dane, any idea when the state decided to drop atricaudatus?
I believe it was in the 1970's
No, it was on the Virginia State website within the last four or five years.....that's why I brought it up a few times in posts. Last time I was on there, they recognized both.....
I must be thinking of another state. Virginia is wierd about it. Honestly they protect the rattlers here as an endangered species and Im not complaining.
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by azatrox »

Long after these animals are extinct, I'm sure people will STILL be pissin' and moanin' about whether to call them timbers or canebrakes.

Do what makes ya happy people.

-Kris
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DracoRJC
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by DracoRJC »

azatrox wrote:Long after these animals are extinct, I'm sure people will STILL be pissin' and moanin' about whether to call them timbers or canebrakes.

Do what makes ya happy people.

-Kris
If we have all these passionate herpetologists out there, why doesnt everybody direct their attention at conservation, so we can worry about the textbooks when we aren't worried about losing them? This goes for many scientists...
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by Brian Hubbs »

Justin, I'm thinkin' of goin' ta Gawja in the spring to look for Canebrakes, Spreadin' Adders, Ground Rattlers, Water Moccasins, Hoop Snakes, and some o' them Chickin' Snakes. Wanna join me? Billie Sue says there's a plenty o' room in the camper... :lol:
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by VICtort »

Thanks Hubbs,

this thread so desparately needed a bit of comic relief...you are really a piece of work! LOL, Vic
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Re: Virginia's canebrakes - innocent I promise!

Post by Ross Padilla »

:lol: :lol:
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