Lampro Nerds
Moderator: Scott Waters
Lampro Nerds
Discuss what this snake is and why?
- Don Becker
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Re: Lampro Nerds
It's a Black Kingsnake, because most of the scales lack a spot.
Re: Lampro Nerds
It's an intergrade between a nigra and a holbrooki, more towards the nigra end of the continuum.
Re: Lampro Nerds
First impression was nigra, especially with the whitish side scales...but getula are confusing haha
- Dell Despain
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Re: Lampro Nerds
Ditto.Zach_Lim wrote:First impression was nigra, especially with the whitish side scales...but getula are confusing haha
Re: Lampro Nerds
That snake is pretty much identical to the kings I find around here. I call them nigra.
Like Chris said, it is on the nigra end of the spectrum.
Like Chris said, it is on the nigra end of the spectrum.
Re: Lampro Nerds
State of Illinois herpetologists are calling this a Speckled due to it's range. You guys are calling it a Black because of color. I'm starting to honestly hate and see no need for subspecies.psyon wrote:It's a Black Kingsnake, because most of the scales lack a spot.
Re: Lampro Nerds
Unfortunately you are going to get your wish, and than these will be two different species..State of Illinois herpetologists are calling this a Speckled due to it's range. You guys are calling it a Black because of color. I'm starting to honestly hate and see no need for subspecies.
Fundad
- Cole Grover
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Re: Lampro Nerds
That animal is 100% Lampropeltis getula. I agree with Chris and Scott; the broad intergrade zone in that area means it can't be pegged into one subspecies or another, but it certainly swings closer to the nigra phenotype. Trying to force it into one subspecies or another obscures biological reality. Subspecies are NOT discrete biological entities. That's something that even a lot of wildlife agency biologists never got the grasp of as undegrads. I read an article published by the wildlife agency for a state adjacent to mine the other day... it was apalling how little the authors knew about very basic biological concepts. I'll shoot you a PM, too.
-Cole
-Cole
- Don Becker
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Re: Lampro Nerds
Wouldn't that depend on where it was found in the state? As the range extends north along the Western side of Illinois, they would be considered *holbrooki*, and on the extreme South East side of the state, they should be *nigra*, that South Central area of Illinois is the intergrade area according the published maps last I looked.justinm wrote:State of Illinois herpetologists are calling this a Speckled due to it's range. You guys are calling it a Black because of color. I'm starting to honestly hate and see no need for subspecies.
Re: Lampro Nerds
So it's an intergrade because it looks like both? It was found in holbrooki range. Subspecies are pretty much crap in my book.
Re: Lampro Nerds
Let me remind you, they are kingsnakes. A highly polymorphic species. I wouldn't make to much out of one individual animal. Cheers
- Dell Despain
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Re: Lampro Nerds
Justin, I'm sure this answers ever thing for you. The snake whisperer has spoken!Retes wrote:Let me remind you, they are kingsnakes.
For me subspecies still matter, but I get where you're coming from.
-Dell
- Bryan Hamilton
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Re: Lampro Nerds
Looks like a nice Lampropeltis getula just like the ones in southern Ohio.
I tend to only use subspecies when its to my advantage. For the most part they are crap. If they are good subspecies, elevate them to species if not, hasta la vista.
I tend to only use subspecies when its to my advantage. For the most part they are crap. If they are good subspecies, elevate them to species if not, hasta la vista.
Re: Lampro Nerds
Its a Common Kingsnake. Enough said.
- Marty Whalin
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Re: Lampro Nerds
Looks like a cross between mcluri and viennensis.
- Mike Pingleton
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Re: Lampro Nerds
It's a Shawnee King. Doesn't always look like a holbrooki, doesn't always look like a nigra, and plenty of variation built in.
I coined the name back in 1996. I really don't care what other people call them Call them what you like. They can't be holbrooki, because (ahem) the Mississippi River is an insurmountable genetic barrier. Now I'm getting silly.
Here's a few Lampropeltis getula, all from the southern portion of Illinois.
For contrast, here are a couple Lampropeltis getula nigra from Alabama:
I call those 'Alabama Kings'
whatevs, Mike
I coined the name back in 1996. I really don't care what other people call them Call them what you like. They can't be holbrooki, because (ahem) the Mississippi River is an insurmountable genetic barrier. Now I'm getting silly.
Here's a few Lampropeltis getula, all from the southern portion of Illinois.
For contrast, here are a couple Lampropeltis getula nigra from Alabama:
I call those 'Alabama Kings'
whatevs, Mike
Re: Lampro Nerds
Mike I have seen some of those animals! Love them, but I was trying to illustrate a point and it's been made. I think that the plasticity of color is the weakest reason for a subspecies.
- Mike Pingleton
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Re: Lampro Nerds
Shucks, I thought I illustrated your point quite well.justinm wrote:Mike I have seen some of those animals! Love them, but I was trying to illustrate a point and it's been made. I think that the plasticity of color is the weakest reason for a subspecies.
Speaking of illustrated points, when's that next neonate of yours due?
-Mike
Re: Lampro Nerds
Yes we need a neonate update!
I see your point Justin on the king!
Different snake but I'm still trying to figure out where the black racer's are in Missouri. The big ones around here sure look like black racers. And 75 miles West of here they all look like the Kansas racers.
Good subject for a Winter post maybe when things get slow.
Gary
I see your point Justin on the king!
Different snake but I'm still trying to figure out where the black racer's are in Missouri. The big ones around here sure look like black racers. And 75 miles West of here they all look like the Kansas racers.
Good subject for a Winter post maybe when things get slow.
Gary
Re: Lampro Nerds
I'll do a larval herper update once I'm home from work and can do some pics. Thanks for asking though guys!
Re: Lampro Nerds
Mike and Gary, Silas just had his first birthday just over a month ago. He had a great time. He's doing great, he is developing quite a vocabulary, which is causing me to adjust mine. He's eating dinner with us, and isn't eating baby food. Walking all over and wants in the snake room every chance he gets. His brother will be here around Christmas time. I'll keep you guys posted on that event.
Here's my larva the other day.
Here's my larva the other day.
Re: Lampro Nerds
Here's a Black from Knoxville, TN - Farragut to be exact. Caught it in my back yard. Next to Black Rats, this is the snake I see most around here.
Re: Lampro Nerds
That's an interesting looking snake do you have any other pics of it.
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Not very good pics. That was back in 2005. Here are a few other bad ones. Guys, please forgive me - we did keep the snake for about a week, but did release it again in the back yard. It had a nasty habit of biting me and not letting go for 15 minutes at a time. These days, I don't keep anything wild caught. I don't want to risk parasites or disease to my captive bred collection.justinm wrote:That's an interesting looking snake do you have any other pics of it.
Re: Lampro Nerds
Basing that statement on a single individual of L.g. holbrooki is a little absurd.justinm wrote:Subspecies are pretty much crap in my book.
The whole point about subspecies is that some individuals can not be put into a single subspecies because they are intergrades. If they didn't intergrade, they would be different species.
But to use holbrooki intergrades as evidence that subspecies are useless is to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Holbrooki integrades with nigra (and splendida) over a LARGE part of its range.
Within the same "species", if you looked at the range and intergrade zones between cal kings and desert kings, the concept works. Of course there are animals that aren't one or the other. That's the whole point.
Re: Lampro Nerds
Chris,
If we're talking about ssp that are seperated geographically, then I'm into it. If we're seeing changes in animals that can breed and mix, then what's the reason or rationale behind some of these subspecies. If it's simply coloration, or behavior which I feel is dictated somewhat by habitat that's not a good reason. I had been taught so long ago that a subspecies was created to be used as a marker, or holding place for animals that required further study to place them either into their own species or not. Too often I think it's used incorrectly. How long have we had all these different Lampropeltis getula ssp?
If we're talking about ssp that are seperated geographically, then I'm into it. If we're seeing changes in animals that can breed and mix, then what's the reason or rationale behind some of these subspecies. If it's simply coloration, or behavior which I feel is dictated somewhat by habitat that's not a good reason. I had been taught so long ago that a subspecies was created to be used as a marker, or holding place for animals that required further study to place them either into their own species or not. Too often I think it's used incorrectly. How long have we had all these different Lampropeltis getula ssp?
Re: Lampro Nerds
justinm wrote:Chris,
If we're talking about ssp that are seperated geographically, then I'm into it. If we're seeing changes in animals that can breed and mix, then what's the reason or rationale behind some of these subspecies.
To interject - that reason is not valid as argument, as it does not support genus or species, let alone subspecies as a construct with that approach
viridis x atrox
lepidus x willardi
scutulatus x atrox
catenatus x viridis
getula x guttata
obsoleta x guttata
contortrix x piscivorus
to list a few ..
-N-
Re: Lampro Nerds
I think you're trying to be obtuse and losing sight of the topic. Rattlesnakes have hemipenal spines that are meant to prevent hybridization, a species breeding within a species isn't quite the same thing as what you're bringing up.
- Don Becker
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Re: Lampro Nerds
Hell, if they can breed and mix, I don't see the rationale behind many species then.justinm wrote:If we're seeing changes in animals that can breed and mix, then what's the reason or rationale behind some of these subspecies.
Re: Lampro Nerds
I could never understand how that could be called a black kingsnake. My first impression is that it is a speckled... with less yellow than some. I thought the black kingsnake comes from Mexico.
Another question comes to mind... What's the difference between a subspecies and an intergrade? I was recently led to believe that the 'subspecies' nomenclature was created to cover animals that are not quite recognised as a species and are not considered intergrades.
(this is the first time I was forced to thumb through Hubbs book... you know... it is quite informative.)
Another question comes to mind... What's the difference between a subspecies and an intergrade? I was recently led to believe that the 'subspecies' nomenclature was created to cover animals that are not quite recognised as a species and are not considered intergrades.
(this is the first time I was forced to thumb through Hubbs book... you know... it is quite informative.)
- Andy Avram
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Re: Lampro Nerds
If we're talking about ssp that are seperated geographically, then I'm into it. If we're seeing changes in animals that can breed and mix, then what's the reason or rationale behind some of these subspecies. If it's simply coloration, or behavior which I feel is dictated somewhat by habitat that's not a good reason.
Justin, to begin with, only a species is a real entity, everything above and below that, in taxonomy, is just to help us understand a species relationship to other species. The most general definition of a subspecies is a geographically distinct group of organisms within a species. The term "geographically distinct" does not imply or mean "geographically isolated". The distinct part is habitat, body proportions, coloration, or any other host of characteristics we want to give it. Since all subspecies are the same species, gene flow is freely exchanged between them and at the contact zones you will see what we call "intergrades" or a blending of characteristics, but within the core of the subspecies range you will see a set of pretty standard and distinct characteristics. If it only applied to "geographically isolated" populations, then we would need to make subspecies out of nearly every island population of organisms, so in that regard there would be how many subspecies of Timber Rattlesnakes in the Atlantic coast islands alone?
This statement is not entirely true, but not entirely wrong either. Subspecies were created to give a name to those groups which I described above. Part of the thought though, is these populations may be evolving towards a new species, either through something that creates isolation (see African Rift Lake Cichlids for this type of speciation) or just genetic drift. A subspecies may stay perfectly fine as a subspecies for millions of years before something pushes it into speciation, or it may never happen. Although with further research it may be found that some of these subspecies are actually distinct species and will be reassigned as such. But the purpose of describing subspecies is not to either split into a new species or sink completely. In light of this, most of the Kingsnake subspecies hold up quite well. Large intergration zones may be just that or may be further described as another distinct subspecies.I had been taught so long ago that a subspecies was created to be used as a marker, or holding place for animals that required further study to place them either into their own species or not. Too often I think it's used incorrectly. How long have we had all these different Lampropeltis getula ssp?
So, since a subspecies is nothing more than a “geographically distinct” population of an organism, you are free to recognize them or not as you choose.
Andy
Re: Lampro Nerds
Well... if I can ever get a distinct definition of a species the rest might make sense.
- Andy Avram
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Re: Lampro Nerds
You can't, at least one that works perfectly across all situations. Welcome to biology, were the excepts are the rule.Well... if I can ever get a distinct definition of a species the rest might make sense.
Re: Lampro Nerds
I was just thinking to myself... it do that sometimes... that there are those who know the answer... which shows they don't have a clue... then there is the true biologist.
Andy Avram wrote:You can't, at least one that works perfectly across all situations. Welcome to biology, were the excepts are the rule.Well... if I can ever get a distinct definition of a species the rest might make sense.
Re: Lampro Nerds
I was going to weigh in with some thoughts of my own, but after reading the posts in this thread I thought the comments that chrish and Andy Avram were quite excellent and I could think of little to add.
EJ,
For more info on the black kingsnake you may want to investigate,
http://www.blackkingsnake.com
Phil
EJ,
For more info on the black kingsnake you may want to investigate,
http://www.blackkingsnake.com
Phil
- Brian Hubbs
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Re: Lampro Nerds
Wow, the things you guys would understand if you had my Common Kingsnakes book...it's amazing how uninformed some of the forum members are...
First of all, most Black Kingsnakes have a little speckling on them, especially around the outer edge of the range and as juveniles. The specks mostly disappear as the snakes grow. Southern IL is a problem area for the most part and probably should all be considered an intergrade zone, but my range map showed the boundaries as best I could determine:
As for the new species described by Pyron, well...here's his map (not based on extensive data or anything else, it seems. He even missed known counties in Indiana and W Virginia):
As you can see, he shows all kings in IL as Black Kings...and I have a few comments on the map that kinda go against his determinations...I wonder where the Western Black Kings went...and why Desert Kings are supposed to be in Northern AZ?!?!? As for the Cal King range, well, I'm not even going to bother with all the problems with that one...
I love morphology!
Oh, did you want to know where the speckled kings are too? OK, here they are...based on morphological characteristics and a system of defining intergrades that is explained in my book. Not just some random computer model that any moron can run in a lab...
I hope that helps a little...
First of all, most Black Kingsnakes have a little speckling on them, especially around the outer edge of the range and as juveniles. The specks mostly disappear as the snakes grow. Southern IL is a problem area for the most part and probably should all be considered an intergrade zone, but my range map showed the boundaries as best I could determine:
As for the new species described by Pyron, well...here's his map (not based on extensive data or anything else, it seems. He even missed known counties in Indiana and W Virginia):
As you can see, he shows all kings in IL as Black Kings...and I have a few comments on the map that kinda go against his determinations...I wonder where the Western Black Kings went...and why Desert Kings are supposed to be in Northern AZ?!?!? As for the Cal King range, well, I'm not even going to bother with all the problems with that one...
I love morphology!
Oh, did you want to know where the speckled kings are too? OK, here they are...based on morphological characteristics and a system of defining intergrades that is explained in my book. Not just some random computer model that any moron can run in a lab...
I hope that helps a little...
- Brian Hubbs
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Re: Lampro Nerds
This seems to have gotten buried by other posts...
- Mike Pingleton
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Re: Lampro Nerds
It's a natural occurrence. Eventually the post sinks to the bottom and decomposes, and the manure and other detritus is turned back into soil. Com-post.Brian Hubbs wrote:This seems to have gotten buried by other posts...
Re: Lampro Nerds
Brian,
What are the subspecies based off of in your book? Is it looks alone? Is it diet and habitat preferences? Is it size even? Is it that they are isolated by things like the Mississippi river? Help me understand, don't just throw up a map. I know where they look different almost down to the exact roads where it happens.
What are the subspecies based off of in your book? Is it looks alone? Is it diet and habitat preferences? Is it size even? Is it that they are isolated by things like the Mississippi river? Help me understand, don't just throw up a map. I know where they look different almost down to the exact roads where it happens.
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Re: Lampro Nerds
Or just recognized for the same species that they are, with acknowledgement to geographic colour variation.Unfortunately you are going to get your wish, and than these will be two different species..
I read a book about a battle between the "lumpers" and the "splitters". It was quite humorous; Snakebite, an autobiography of a Canadian herpetologist with a decent sense of humour. This battle seems to be never ending.
Ian
Re: Lampro Nerds
Duhh... kind of an obvious observation
joeysgreen wrote: This battle seems to be never ending.
Ian
- Brian Hubbs
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Re: Lampro Nerds
Justin: Buy the book and find out. It was just reviewed in Herp Review- . Do you read that journal?
But the short answer would be: all the known evidence, including my own, and traditional morphology. I really don't like this DNA crap that differentiates between animals that look exactly alike and act exactly alike...like Pyron's split does...is the Mississippi really that big a barrier? I don't think so...my map sure doesn't reflect that...and anyway, these animals have been interacting for 100s of thousands of years...and the earth has been changing for at least that long... Gene flow is very old...
But the short answer would be: all the known evidence, including my own, and traditional morphology. I really don't like this DNA crap that differentiates between animals that look exactly alike and act exactly alike...like Pyron's split does...is the Mississippi really that big a barrier? I don't think so...my map sure doesn't reflect that...and anyway, these animals have been interacting for 100s of thousands of years...and the earth has been changing for at least that long... Gene flow is very old...
Re: Lampro Nerds
Brian Hubbs wrote:Justin: Buy the book and find out. It was just reviewed in Herp Review- . Do you read that journal?
But the short answer would be: all the known evidence, including my own, and traditional morphology. I really don't like this DNA crap that differentiates between animals that look exactly alike and act exactly alike...like Pyron's split does...is the Mississippi really that big a barrier? I don't think so...my map sure doesn't reflect that...and anyway, these animals have been interacting for 100s of thousands of years...and the earth has been changing for at least that long... Gene flow is very old...
Holy Cow did you get Retes to answer this for you? You left out your own philosophy about life and what we think we know...
- Cole Grover
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Re: Lampro Nerds
Justin,
I get what you're asking. Hubbs isn't likely to give out the secrets that make is book so valuable, though. The notion that rivers are a barrier to gene flow, especially for moderate to large-sized snakes, is almost funny. The fact that DNA haplotypes "belonging" to a population on one side of a river can be found on the other side of the river (as demonstrated in Burbrink and Pyron's work) is hard and fast evidence of that... especially in conjunction with the fact that they look and act the same and interbreed. For an example, re-check Dell's post: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8954. The Bighorn River is fairly broad, COLD, and fast flowing. It's not as broad as the Mississippi, that's true, but it's a hell of a lot faster and colder. It's a trout river. In additon to the animals Dell sees crossing it every year, I've also seen Pituophis and Crotalus cross the Yellowstone River. Further, even smaller Lampropeltines likely cross "big" rivers. One of Dell's fellow guides reported seeing a Pale Milksnake cross the Bighorn River one day in late Spring. These guys aren't dolts - they're hard-core naturalists, so the chances of him making a mis-ID on such a distinctive animal is unlikely.
Burbrink and Pyron's work on other populations also indicates a "fuzziness" of mtDNA haplotypes along the peripheries of their purported species. Not good data interpretation, if you ask me.
-Cole
I get what you're asking. Hubbs isn't likely to give out the secrets that make is book so valuable, though. The notion that rivers are a barrier to gene flow, especially for moderate to large-sized snakes, is almost funny. The fact that DNA haplotypes "belonging" to a population on one side of a river can be found on the other side of the river (as demonstrated in Burbrink and Pyron's work) is hard and fast evidence of that... especially in conjunction with the fact that they look and act the same and interbreed. For an example, re-check Dell's post: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8954. The Bighorn River is fairly broad, COLD, and fast flowing. It's not as broad as the Mississippi, that's true, but it's a hell of a lot faster and colder. It's a trout river. In additon to the animals Dell sees crossing it every year, I've also seen Pituophis and Crotalus cross the Yellowstone River. Further, even smaller Lampropeltines likely cross "big" rivers. One of Dell's fellow guides reported seeing a Pale Milksnake cross the Bighorn River one day in late Spring. These guys aren't dolts - they're hard-core naturalists, so the chances of him making a mis-ID on such a distinctive animal is unlikely.
Burbrink and Pyron's work on other populations also indicates a "fuzziness" of mtDNA haplotypes along the peripheries of their purported species. Not good data interpretation, if you ask me.
-Cole
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Re: Lampro Nerds
I think that when it comes to using information about DNA for taxonomy it is just another characteristic to measure. It is not all defining and decisions that lean on it's use almost exclusively lose some merit IMO. With that thought, I should add that it's probably a heck of a lot more tale-telling then colouration.
Ian
ps, Brian your book is on my list of "must get" print. Unfortunately this list could fill a library.
Ian
ps, Brian your book is on my list of "must get" print. Unfortunately this list could fill a library.
- Mike Pingleton
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Re: Lampro Nerds
Nothing wrong with DNA - the problem lies with how the data is interpreted for those of us who can't actually see DNA
I'm starting to think of Lampropeltis getula as a 'continuum', rather than a set of subspecies, much like pearls on a string. In the Getula Continuum, if we start at the Pacific Ocean and head east while examining our pearls, Cal Kings are slightly different genetically from Desert Kings, which are slightly different from Speckled Kings, which are slightly different from Black Kings, Eastern Kings, etc. When the two that are farthest apart distance-wise are compared, we find their genes are the farthest apart as well.
I'm talking a bit over my head here, but I know there are species continua within Class Aves, so I don't see why it doesn't apply with getula (or triangulum, or...)
-Mike
I'm starting to think of Lampropeltis getula as a 'continuum', rather than a set of subspecies, much like pearls on a string. In the Getula Continuum, if we start at the Pacific Ocean and head east while examining our pearls, Cal Kings are slightly different genetically from Desert Kings, which are slightly different from Speckled Kings, which are slightly different from Black Kings, Eastern Kings, etc. When the two that are farthest apart distance-wise are compared, we find their genes are the farthest apart as well.
I'm talking a bit over my head here, but I know there are species continua within Class Aves, so I don't see why it doesn't apply with getula (or triangulum, or...)
-Mike
Brian Hubbs wrote: But the short answer would be: all the known evidence, including my own, and traditional morphology. I really don't like this DNA crap that differentiates between animals that look exactly alike and act exactly alike...like Pyron's split does...is the Mississippi really that big a barrier? I don't think so...my map sure doesn't reflect that...and anyway, these animals have been interacting for 100s of thousands of years...and the earth has been changing for at least that long... Gene flow is very old...
- Brian Hubbs
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Re: Lampro Nerds
I think Cole answered Justin pretty well, and so did Pingleman...although I see subspecies as groupings of snakes within geographic boundaries that represent those areas of change and flow with consistent regional patterns. Subspecies are just a way for the observer to identify the different groups along the path of change within a large species that all interbreed with each other. This was the old, established definition, which has been lost to our newer generations because of the "new" species concept adopted in the 1980s. I just disagree with the new concept being the only concept, and many of our recent changes have reflected it's imperfections.
There, was that a RETES type answer...? hahahahahaha
Oh, and if my snide comments about Pyron's work seem out of line and unprofessional...well, that's just because sloppy science pisses me off (especially sloppy science from someone who has an IQ on the genius level-I guess genius does not include "common sense") and I don't care what people think... My book stands on it's own...it is what it is until someone proves it isn't.
And Joey: Your cost for the book (and everyone else's on this forum) would be $50 +$5 shipping, and if you want the rattler guide too...just add an extra $10. I'm having a Xmas sale...yippee.
There, was that a RETES type answer...? hahahahahaha
Oh, and if my snide comments about Pyron's work seem out of line and unprofessional...well, that's just because sloppy science pisses me off (especially sloppy science from someone who has an IQ on the genius level-I guess genius does not include "common sense") and I don't care what people think... My book stands on it's own...it is what it is until someone proves it isn't.
And Joey: Your cost for the book (and everyone else's on this forum) would be $50 +$5 shipping, and if you want the rattler guide too...just add an extra $10. I'm having a Xmas sale...yippee.
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Re: Lampro Nerds
lol, I already have the rattler guide. I added it on to my purchase of the Ernst text last year or so. In time, your book will be on my shelf
Mike, I like the continuum concept as well. Hard titles for something so fluid are hard to manage. Subspecies names are at least usefull to describe what you have found to others. I still have to add a getula of any sorts to my life list
Mike, I like the continuum concept as well. Hard titles for something so fluid are hard to manage. Subspecies names are at least usefull to describe what you have found to others. I still have to add a getula of any sorts to my life list
Re: Lampro Nerds
Hubbs,
I'll buy the Kingsnake book for a discount, call it the repeat customer discount I have Mtn. Kings. If you give it to me on sale I'm in.
I'll buy the Kingsnake book for a discount, call it the repeat customer discount I have Mtn. Kings. If you give it to me on sale I'm in.