Really, has it come to this?

Dedicated exclusively to field herping.

Moderator: Scott Waters

desertwalker
Posts: 47
Joined: June 11th, 2010, 7:49 am

Really, has it come to this?

Post by desertwalker » November 7th, 2011, 8:01 am

Just finished reading a recent post where the author (name withheld in case someone might know who I'm talking about) not only doesn't want to give any clues as to the locales he even waited until the end of the year to post so no one would know the time of year he found his "precious" and have the success he did on his trip. I'm surprised he even put the state and country where they were found. I think this is going over the edge and we might need to do an intervention to help this individual with his OCD.
Has it really come to this? Has the herping community become so protective/paranoid that sleeping is difficult should the world know WHEN you found your "precious"? it's a snake under a rock, get over it. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors herp spot.

User avatar
Ridge Walker
Posts: 127
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 3:41 pm

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by Ridge Walker » November 7th, 2011, 8:32 am

Why do you care? If someone chooses to be protective of locales that is their perogative.

RW

User avatar
Nir
Posts: 220
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 5:50 pm
Location: Gatineau, QC, Canada

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by Nir » November 7th, 2011, 8:39 am

Most herpers do share spots... Just not on the world wide web... wich is most justified in my opinion...

Sharrack
Posts: 33
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 1:21 pm

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by Sharrack » November 7th, 2011, 8:54 am

It has absolutely come to that.
I just heard a report from a guy from a guy from a guy......last night about a new easy spot to get a cool (to some)snake.
The way the story is spreading.........that spot will be the new "spot " next year.
Guaranteed.............. :roll:

The funny part is, the less you care about where something is or collecting it.......the more proactive and sensitive you become to wanting cool wildlife scenario's preserved year after year.
So many have been altered or even extinguished forever.

KS.

User avatar
Jeremiah_Easter
Posts: 353
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 9:48 am
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by Jeremiah_Easter » November 7th, 2011, 9:13 am

Desertwalker - sure, some people are a bit OCD about protecting information, but, I would WAY RATHER have them post one epic at the end of the year than nothing at all. I get your rant, but I would let it go and enjoy the post. Just my two-cents :beer:

heavenscloud
Posts: 254
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:31 pm
Location: PA

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by heavenscloud » November 7th, 2011, 9:43 am

Sounds like common sense.

User avatar
Mike Waters
Posts: 835
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 11:37 am
Location: Bakersfield CA

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by Mike Waters » November 7th, 2011, 9:57 am

I felt the same way when i first joined the forum. I was sitting back watching and waiting for someone to post the where, when and how. After a couple years of hitting the spots that people where mentioning on the forum i decided to go out and explore and find my own spots and naturaly shared them with people. After watching these spots turn into my own local white water i have decided to share less and hunt more. It may seem odd to you now but after you see your hard work taken advantage of by lazy less ethical herpers you begin to understand. I wish it wasnt like that, there are some pretty big finds i would love to share but unfortunatly it is not worth it.

User avatar
Brandon La Forest
Posts: 244
Joined: July 6th, 2010, 1:23 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by Brandon La Forest » November 7th, 2011, 10:31 am

Sharrack wrote:It has absolutely come to that.
I just heard a report from a guy from a guy from a guy......last night about a new easy spot to get a cool (to some)snake.
The way the story is spreading.........that spot will be the new "spot " next year.
Guaranteed.............. :roll:

The funny part is, the less you care about where something is or collecting it.......the more proactive and sensitive you become to wanting cool wildlife scenario's preserved year after year.
So many have been altered or even extinguished forever.

KS.
Amen!

desertwalker
Posts: 47
Joined: June 11th, 2010, 7:49 am

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by desertwalker » November 7th, 2011, 11:13 am

"Why do I care?" and " It makes sense"??? It's not that I really care I just think it makes herpers look foolish. Because he had a pic on a sunny day does that put "his spot" in jeopardy because that will allow unscrupulous herpers to deduce that this snake comes out on sunny days ? GPS coordinates I can understand but can ANYONE tell me how on earth a person can ransack his reptile cache by saying his snake was seen in August?

mikemike
Posts: 1207
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 12:37 pm
Location: Ft. Smith, Arkansas
Contact:

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by mikemike » November 7th, 2011, 11:38 am

There's plenty of spots I have that I have and will show a lot of certain herpers. There are even a few I don't really care about that I'll tell just about anyone that asks about, so long as their intentions are good, however, I, like most others, will absolutely never post an actual locality online as public knowledge. Nor will I ever give out details over a public forum to anything closer than what county ___________ was found in. I'll post the time for most things, but even some sensitive finds I'll hold off for a little bit.

I have shared spots in the past to the public, and just like others, I have seen those spots become so overherped and destroyed (not returning flipped rocks, etc) that I refuse to post anything closer than county level. Most things now, I'll just put a part of the state (ie. Northern California, NW Arkansas, Western Kansas, etc). It's not really the business of random people to know exactly where I have put in all of my hard work so they can just show up and find stuff without working for it themselves. I am, by no means, the only herper that feels this way, either. I have no problem discussing localities privately with people that I have talked to and trust, but, like I said, I've just seen too many good spots go bad in the past that it's just not worth it to me to risk posting any sort of locales.

User avatar
Chris Smith
Posts: 2296
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:13 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by Chris Smith » November 7th, 2011, 11:39 am

Better to be overly careful than not careful enough. Just think about the possible outcomes... Just because something isn't very likely to happen doesn't mean it cannot/will not .

Just my 2 cents,
-Chris

User avatar
Ridge Walker
Posts: 127
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 3:41 pm

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by Ridge Walker » November 7th, 2011, 11:41 am

desertwalker wrote: GPS coordinates I can understand but can ANYONE tell me how on earth a person can ransack his reptile cache by saying his snake was seen in August?
I could tell you how, but then you might ransack my reptile cache. 8-)

RW

User avatar
-EJ
Posts: 1078
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 11:17 am

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by -EJ » November 7th, 2011, 12:15 pm

I'm wondering how is this different than swapping information at a herp club or through the mail which is how it was done back in the day (I hate that term for some reason). Most herpers I encountered had no trouble sharing specifics then. It is the same thing but only faster through this medium.

(My favorite word is entropy. When I learned the meaning of the word (in organic chemistry)it made sense and explained why life has become complex. I was surprised to learn that the meaning seems to have changed. I think it still applies as I learned it. Technology has added to the equation and seems to have followed suit.)

gmerker
Posts: 30
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 6:43 am

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by gmerker » November 7th, 2011, 12:41 pm

Hey I couldn’t agree with you more desertwalker….there is nothing I despise more than seeing a really cool animal posted on this site with not a clue as to where or when it was found. I HATE that!

My favorite activity of late is to pull up a chair to the old comp, look at the Field Herp Forum, and figure out where I can travel to find the next great herp. I love that because it circumvents what I use to have to do: try and figure it out myself. What a bother….absolutely no fun in that.

So I agree with you. People should post exactly where and when they find a cool animal. That way, next year, they can have a lot of people looking in those same spots with them….who knows how many of those cool animals could be found there with all those people looking.

I appreciate your concern….thanks for bringing it to all of our attention….gmerker

User avatar
-EJ
Posts: 1078
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 11:17 am

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by -EJ » November 7th, 2011, 12:49 pm

For some reason... I don't know why... I sense a bit of sarcaism in this post.

Gerry... How much specific locality data has been shared with you? How did that come about? I suspect networking... corresponding via mail 'in the day' and the internet. The point being... information was shared.

Do we really need to worry about the few individuals at tthe expense of the many who are really trying to get into the hobby?
gmerker wrote:Hey I couldn’t agree with you more desertwalker….there is nothing I despise more than seeing a really cool animal posted on this site with not a clue as to where or when it was found. I HATE that!

My favorite activity of late is to pull up a chair to the old comp, look at the Field Herp Forum, and figure out where I can travel to find the next great herp. I love that because it circumvents what I use to have to do: try and figure it out myself. What a bother….absolutely no fun in that.

So I agree with you. People should post exactly where and when they find a cool animal. That way, next year, they can have a lot of people looking in those same spots with them….who knows how many of those cool animals could be found there with all those people looking.

I appreciate your concern….thanks for bringing it to all of our attention….gmerker

erik loza
Posts: 244
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:01 am

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by erik loza » November 7th, 2011, 2:08 pm

LOL, Gerry. I know you better than probably anyone in this thread and am still trying to figure out if you are being facetious or not. Ha!

I agree with the TS in principle. Part of the fantasy, going back to when I was a little kid, was to read a book (which I guess the web has replaced, nowadays...) and see photos of this or that animal from a certain area. For example, I remember Karl Switak's little paperback on Desert Reptiles and thinking, "Gee, I would like to visit Victorville or Palm Springs some day". Speaking only for myself, it was the fact that you COULD potentially go to this spot and see something like a Longnose Snake or Sidewinder that encouraged me to pursue it. In other words, if all the book said was, "Somewhere in deserts of California", I would've been, "Oh, well...".

Don't know about anyone else but I daydream about herping in different places and it's fun to see in a post, for example, "This was seen near such-and-such city". When there is no info attached, the interest sort of disappears, because then, all you are seeing is a photo and not a story.

Part of me finds the whole "mention no localities"-thing rather pointless, because it is only herpers who protect info this way. Perhaps because we are the only ones who go afield with the express intent of finding something and physically being able to capture it (for whatever purpose...). For example, I'm going to image-search Google the words "mountain kingsnake" and "hiking". Look what I get, just the first few, in no particular order...

Zonata, from Santa Barbara, with date a trail name...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/eamesker/5 ... otostream/

Zonata from Yosemite, ditto on date and trail name...
http://billhensley.wordpress.com/2010/0 ... l-park-ca/

Here is a Zonata with GPS coordinates, from some guy's geocaching blog...
http://www.geolocation.ws/v/I/563421230 ... ngsnake/en

Anyway, my point being that the whole "only share localities off-line"-thing would make sense if we existed in some vacuum where the only resource for information was, for example, this forum. But it's not and to counterpoint, there is A LOT of very specific info out there that someone who was serious about finding this or that animal, could utilize.

That being said, I agree that you should use some judgment in mentioning locality info. For example, if someone wants to find a coral snake in Austin, then I have no problems saying, "Try the Barton Creek Greenbelt". You stand as good a chance as finding one there as you would at any board line and the Greenbelt is vast and has nothing to flip or destroy, so there is not much way to hurt it. Ditto if someone wants to see, for example, a lot of species on the road at night. "Sure, go to Freer or Hebbronville and road hunt any of the highways there". That is true info but the reality is that no roads in South Texas are "magic" and all those places are 3-4 hours from anywhere, so it takes a dedicated soul to want to make that trip. These are different than telling someone what hillside a rosy boa came from or giving up a board line.

Guess I am trying to say that part of the appeal has always been the "Gee, maybe someday" factor and it somewhat disappointing when that info isn't there. Just my 2-cents, FWIW.

User avatar
-EJ
Posts: 1078
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 11:17 am

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by -EJ » November 7th, 2011, 2:20 pm

This is what I'm talking about. How many new herpers are dismissed when asked for specifics? I really don't thing that a harmful population is monitoring these forms... Rudy is gone... the lowlifes... I really don't think they monitor this medium for the most part.

Another note... give it a little thought... Ilegal activity... is not accepted in the trade for the most part.
erik loza wrote:LOL, Gerry. I know you better than probably anyone in this thread and am still trying to figure out if you are being facetious or not. Ha!

I agree with the TS in principle. Part of the fantasy, going back to when I was a little kid, was to read a book (which I guess the web has replaced, nowadays...) and see photos of this or that animal from a certain area. For example, I remember Karl Switak's little paperback on Desert Reptiles and thinking, "Gee, I would like to visit Victorville or Palm Springs some day". Speaking only for myself, it was the fact that you COULD potentially go to this spot and see something like a Longnose Snake or Sidewinder that encouraged me to pursue it. In other words, if all the book said was, "Somewhere in deserts of California", I would've been, "Oh, well...".

Don't know about anyone else but I daydream about herping in different places and it's fun to see in a post, for example, "This was seen near such-and-such city". When there is no info attached, the interest sort of disappears, because then, all you are seeing is a photo and not a story.

Part of me finds the whole "mention no localities"-thing rather pointless, because it is only herpers who protect info this way. Perhaps because we are the only ones who go afield with the express intent of finding something and physically being able to capture it (for whatever purpose...). For example, I'm going to image-search Google the words "mountain kingsnake" and "hiking". Look what I get, just the first few, in no particular order...

Zonata, from Santa Barbara, with date a trail name...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/eamesker/5 ... otostream/

Zonata from Yosemite, ditto on date and trail name...
http://billhensley.wordpress.com/2010/0 ... l-park-ca/

Here is a Zonata with GPS coordinates, from some guy's geocaching blog...
http://www.geolocation.ws/v/I/563421230 ... ngsnake/en

Anyway, my point being that the whole "only share localities off-line"-thing would make sense if we existed in some vacuum where the only resource for information was, for example, this forum. But it's not and to counterpoint, there is A LOT of very specific info out there that someone who was serious about finding this or that animal, could utilize.

That being said, I agree that you should use some judgment in mentioning locality info. For example, if someone wants to find a coral snake in Austin, then I have no problems saying, "Try the Barton Creek Greenbelt". You stand as good a chance as finding one there as you would at any board line and the Greenbelt is vast and has nothing to flip or destroy, so there is not much way to hurt it. Ditto if someone wants to see, for example, a lot of species on the road at night. "Sure, go to Freer or Hebbronville and road hunt any of the highways there". That is true info but the reality is that no roads in South Texas are "magic" and all those places are 3-4 hours from anywhere, so it takes a dedicated soul to want to make that trip. These are different than telling someone what hillside a rosy boa came from or giving up a board line.

Guess I am trying to say that part of the appeal has always been the "Gee, maybe someday" factor and it somewhat disappointing when that info isn't there. Just my 2-cents, FWIW.

erik loza
Posts: 244
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:01 am

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by erik loza » November 7th, 2011, 2:29 pm

To go one step further, how many of us have ever gotten a lifer or knockout specimen from someone else's spot, rather than from our own?

User avatar
-EJ
Posts: 1078
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 11:17 am

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by -EJ » November 7th, 2011, 2:36 pm

Been there... done that.

That is exactly the point I was trying to make.

The friends in the herp community.

I suspect there is a 'big brother' issue here among some.


erik loza wrote:To go one step further, how many of us have ever gotten a lifer or knockout specimen from someone else's spot, rather than from our own?

User avatar
-EJ
Posts: 1078
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 11:17 am

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by -EJ » November 7th, 2011, 2:38 pm

I'm wondering if there is not an issure of 'never trust the estabishment' issue going on here.

ugh
Posts: 457
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 5:46 am

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by ugh » November 7th, 2011, 2:41 pm

Ridge Walker wrote:
desertwalker wrote: GPS coordinates I can understand but can ANYONE tell me how on earth a person can ransack his reptile cache by saying his snake was seen in August?
I could tell you how, but then you might ransack my reptile cache. 8-)

RW

LOL nice,had the same thought as I read the above question
Ah who gives a f&** - if you get it you get it, if not oh well.
Like was said,why not just enjoy the perdy pics?

erik loza
Posts: 244
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:01 am

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by erik loza » November 7th, 2011, 2:41 pm

To be fair, there are probably a lot of California people in this forum and there, the "people-to-habitat" ratio is much more skewed than in many other parts of the country.

If there were as many people in West Texas as there are in Los Angeles, I am sure that Highway 277 would be just as much of a drive-thru as Whitewater is.

User avatar
justinm
Posts: 3423
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:26 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by justinm » November 7th, 2011, 2:45 pm

erik loza wrote:To be fair, there are probably a lot of California people in this forum and there, the "people-to-habitat" ratio is much more skewed than in many other parts of the country.

If there were as many people in West Texas as there are in Los Angeles, I am sure that Highway 277 would be just as much of a drive-thru as Whitewater is.
Agreed I freely share with my Herp Club all the local spots. We have limited land available, and I know these people. Besides that we don't have too many things that people want to collect and even less that are good for the pet trade. If I lived out West I would be a little more concerned, but have you been to Central Illinois' Corn Desert?

User avatar
-EJ
Posts: 1078
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 11:17 am

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by -EJ » November 7th, 2011, 2:45 pm

I assume it is.

erik loza wrote:To be fair, there are probably a lot of California people in this forum and there, the "people-to-habitat" ratio is much more skewed than in many other parts of the country.

If there were as many people in West Texas as there are in Los Angeles, I am sure that Highway 277 would be just as much of a drive-thru as Whitewater is.

erik loza
Posts: 244
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:01 am

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by erik loza » November 7th, 2011, 2:51 pm

ugh wrote:...if you get it you get it, if not oh well.
Like was said,why not just enjoy the perdy pics?
So, it's an automatic concession that you are anti-conservation if you are interested in more than just the photo, itself?

For example, these recent Borneo posts by Twoton and China posts by Kevin Messenger are some of my favorites, because they show not just the animals bit also the habitat, the area, what park it was, the funny signs, people, etc. Those are the types of things that make me want to go to Borneo or to China. I could go visit that park!

By comparison, there was a recent post by gentleman here on a Mexico trip. It was 100% animal pics and little to no locality info or habitat shots. The pics were fine, the animals were beautiful, but I felt no connection to the story. It felt like a missed opportunity.

Again, just my 2-cents.

User avatar
Fundad
Posts: 5721
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 6:11 am
Location: Los Angeles County
Contact:

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by Fundad » November 7th, 2011, 2:55 pm

It's about the Herps and protecting them, not from you per say, or even other forum members, but from those who would do or MIGHT do harm to the herps.

I usually find that seasoned and experienced herpers have NO problem with this way of thinking.

Its those who seek private information that have the biggest problems with it.. "just sayin"

Fundad

hellihooks
Posts: 8025
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
Location: Hesperia, California.
Contact:

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by hellihooks » November 7th, 2011, 2:58 pm

I have... at a spot ole SnakemasterMyke took me to... and it was one of his biggest goals to find that certain snake, (and the range extension) which had not been recorded in the area for 50 yrs. The find was purely by chance... I was flipping for rosys... and actually had no idea what the snake was, when I flipped it, having never seen one, or looked it up, despite Myke's talking about it CONSTANTLY... :roll: Myke handled the whole episode like a true gentleman... and to this day (to my knowledge) has never uttered so much as a slightly sarcastic or petulant remark. That SHOW of CHARACTER is one reason I still count him as a good buddy.

I'm working on a 'Locality Specificity Online' article for Herp Nation Magazine, which I hope will soon be done... and published. And will hopefully present some common sense guidelines, especially for the 'newbs'... :D jim

erik loza
Posts: 244
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:01 am

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by erik loza » November 7th, 2011, 3:03 pm

Devil Advocate's Question: If one breeds and sells, for example, rosy boas or kingsnakes which are identified by and more importantly, priced according to, their localities, and that person takes a position that locality info is only for VIP's, does that make your position more one of capitalism than of conservation?

condyle
Posts: 206
Joined: September 25th, 2010, 2:46 pm
Location: Santa Cruz ca

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by condyle » November 7th, 2011, 3:19 pm

I miss the ultra secret seventies!

User avatar
azatrox
Posts: 793
Joined: June 9th, 2010, 5:51 am
Location: Arizona

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by azatrox » November 7th, 2011, 3:20 pm

By comparison, there was a recent post by gentleman here on a Mexico trip. It was 100% animal pics and little to no locality info or habitat shots. The pics were fine, the animals were beautiful, but I felt no connection to the story. It felt like a missed opportunity.
If the above was in reference to me, well then I dare say that's one of only a handful of times I've been referred to as a "gentleman"! LOL

I get your point, and honestly, part of me agrees...I love it when others can take you "into the field" with them...I've really enjoyed those posts as well....

As far as a "missed opportunity", I suppose that has more to do with why the person is sharing the pics/story than what the recipient receives...Speaking for no one but myself, I shared what I saw because I know alot of people like seeing the pics and can appreciate the critters. Simple as that...Yes, I could have gone more into detail and maybe even included a few habitat shots, but for my purposes I didn't think it was necessary in order to accomplish what I was seeking to accomplish.

As to the larger issue of "spot sharing", this whole argument has the distinct feel of a snake biting it's own tail and rolling down a hill...It's not new ground we're covering here. Personally, I don't need anyone's spots...I have enough confidence in my own abilities that if I really want to find a particular animal, I know I could put in the legwork and eventually succeeed. Does that mean I haven't had help along the way? No...We all have whether we wish to admit that or not...But one reaches a point where one becomes comfortable enough with their environment where they become largely self sufficient in terms of locating animals.

-Kris

hellihooks
Posts: 8025
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
Location: Hesperia, California.
Contact:

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by hellihooks » November 7th, 2011, 3:29 pm

erik loza wrote:Devil Advocate's Question: If one breeds and sells, for example, rosy boas or kingsnakes which are identified by and more importantly, priced according to, their localities, and that person takes a position that locality info is only for VIP's, does that make your position more one of capitalism than of conservation?
Funny... I was actually thinking about something very similar to your question this morning (swear to God) I have, in the past proposed 'Rosy Quests" wherein a group of top-notch rosy bros go to a locality that is not commercially available, flip till we find a pair... put them in the hands of a reputable rosy breeder, with the understanding that whoever found either (or both) of the original pair, gets a cb pair (should they want one)
I was thinking of who I would invite/trust with this (my?) spot... and I have to admit that it was a fairly short list. My criteria was not who was best known... but guys I know have an exemplary record of habitat maintainence and trustworthyness... like Fundad. I would invite Fundad...although given his commitment to very high ideals and standards, would probably decline. :roll: jim
Eric... capitalism TOWARDS conservation. Priority one...less habitat destruction, when locality becomes commercially available... 2) a couple of breeders make a few bucks, till the locality is widely available.

User avatar
Kent VanSooy
Posts: 1100
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 6:51 am
Location: Oceanside

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by Kent VanSooy » November 7th, 2011, 4:10 pm

Devil Advocate's Question: If one breeds and sells, for example, rosy boas or kingsnakes which are identified by and more importantly, priced according to, their localities, and that person takes a position that locality info is only for VIP's, does that make your position more one of capitalism than of conservation?
Clearly it depends on how much coin one could make off said locality. Just how much does hypocrisy cost ??

User avatar
-EJ
Posts: 1078
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 11:17 am

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by -EJ » November 7th, 2011, 4:23 pm

Stop... someone mentioned... if it was about the herps... sit on the couch and leave them alone.

This is a seriously ignorant point of view... how many youngsters... under 18... have we had posting... looking for places to herp?

Are they commercial collectors looking to make a buck... maybe... but I don't think so. These are kids who have access to an informational medium that we could only dream of at that age. What is so cool is that some are using it to a full extent only to come across some paranoid old farts that really does not understand this form of communication.

Sorry... I'm a simplistic person. I don't worry about what can be but I deal with what is.

I so hope the next generation is not a bunch of paranoids... the older group... I know they are paranoid because the change is so fast. I'm glad I'm a simpleton.
Fundad wrote:It's about the Herps and protecting them, not from you per say, or even other forum members, but from those who would do or MIGHT do harm to the herps.

I usually find that seasoned and experienced herpers have NO problem with this way of thinking.

Its those who seek private information that have the biggest problems with it.. "just sayin"

Fundad

User avatar
Brandon La Forest
Posts: 244
Joined: July 6th, 2010, 1:23 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by Brandon La Forest » November 7th, 2011, 5:02 pm

This conversation is really stupid....

-B-

User avatar
noah k.
Posts: 229
Joined: November 3rd, 2011, 4:27 pm

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by noah k. » November 7th, 2011, 5:16 pm

-EJ wrote:Stop... someone mentioned... if it was about the herps... sit on the couch and leave them alone.

This is a seriously ignorant point of view... how many youngsters... under 18... have we had posting... looking for places to herp?

Are they commercial collectors looking to make a buck... maybe... but I don't think so. These are kids who have access to an informational medium that we could only dream of at that age. What is so cool is that some are using it to a full extent only to come across some paranoid old farts that really does not understand this form of communication.

Sorry... I'm a simplistic person. I don't worry about what can be but I deal with what is.

I so hope the next generation is not a bunch of paranoids... the older group... I know they are paranoid because the change is so fast. I'm glad I'm a simpleton.
Fundad wrote:It's about the Herps and protecting them, not from you per say, or even other forum members, but from those who would do or MIGHT do harm to the herps.

I usually find that seasoned and experienced herpers have NO problem with this way of thinking.

Its those who seek private information that have the biggest problems with it.. "just sayin"

Fundad
I agree.

User avatar
Phil Peak
Posts: 523
Joined: June 20th, 2010, 7:17 am
Location: Kentucky
Contact:

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by Phil Peak » November 7th, 2011, 5:25 pm

I like Fundads position on this. Like the old saying goes, "too many cooks in the kitchen ruins the stew". The surest way to make a special herping spot no longer special is to show it to other folks. One trust worthy friend that would never tell a soul shows it to two more that promise the same and the next thing you know there's a trail leading to your once special site. Some may come only for photo's, others to collect. Some just want to see some cool stuff. At the end of the day its all the same once disturbance takes its toll and what you once saw there can no longer be found at this place. Some that are new to this game like to play the role of big dog and lay all of their cards on the table thinking it will make them someone by giving a tour to others. As it is, I have found that those places that are usually compromised are the very ones that someone else had given them to begin with.

My advice to the neophyte is do your homework. Research the species that you seek and formulate a strategy for finding them. Field work is trial and error but the rewards are great!

Phil

User avatar
-EJ
Posts: 1078
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 11:17 am

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by -EJ » November 7th, 2011, 5:43 pm

duhh.... that's what's probably led the neophite to this site.

This conversation has nothing to do with the neophite but the old codgers who they are looking up to...

I come back to the control freaks... who have poisoned this interest from day one. I am so tired of 'I got mine... fk everyone else'.

Phil Peak wrote:I like Fundads position on this. Like the old saying goes, "too many cooks in the kitchen ruins the stew". The surest way to make a special herping spot no longer special is to show it to other folks. One trust worthy friend that would never tell a soul shows it to two more that promise the same and the next thing you know there's a trail leading to your once special site. Some may come only for photo's, others to collect. Some just want to see some cool stuff. At the end of the day its all the same once disturbance takes its toll and what you once saw there can no longer be found at this place. Some that are new to this game like to play the role of big dog and lay all of their cards on the table thinking it will make them someone by giving a tour to others. As it is, I have found that those places that are usually compromised are the very ones that someone else had given them to begin with.

My advice to the neophyte is do your homework. Research the species that you seek and formulate a strategy for finding them. Field work is trial and error but the rewards are great!

Phil

User avatar
Brandon D
Posts: 203
Joined: April 27th, 2011, 2:50 pm
Location: Belton, Mo
Contact:

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by Brandon D » November 7th, 2011, 5:57 pm

Not sure whos post your talking about but I for one usually wait till the end of a season to post, this spring I did it by month. As for locations I wont list anything more than a county, and depending on certain things like the size of the county or other details I wont even list a county. You should go ahead and say who your talking about so they can let you know why they decided to post like that. The reason I won't give locations is because most of my areas Ive worked hard to find, Finding an area is more than half the battle, anyone can lift a rock. Ive shared areas before and have had them ruined, I only share with a select few and will not give any specifics to anyone untill I meet them. Ive had some mentors in the past show me some things, but most my areas Ive found myself or with chad w. Its the appreciation I have for an area that Im not going to post it online so that a bunch of people can trample through there.
I appreciate all good posts regardless of if its a post from there whole year, season, or week.
this isn't nam this is herping there are rules..look at the herping ethics post lol, but seriously weve talked about a lot of this in that post, you should check it out

User avatar
-EJ
Posts: 1078
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 11:17 am

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by -EJ » November 7th, 2011, 6:12 pm

feaky you'd make that reference.

User avatar
Phil Peak
Posts: 523
Joined: June 20th, 2010, 7:17 am
Location: Kentucky
Contact:

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by Phil Peak » November 7th, 2011, 6:32 pm

But EJ, I want nothing more than to promote new discoveries by the neophytes to this forum. For that matter, we felt deeply enough about this subject that we actually authored a book on how to achieve these goals more effectively,

http://www.ecouniverse.com/product/108/

Revealing exact locality data to these folks does nothing to advance herpetology. I believe that assisting others in the how and when is more important than the where. Just think about it. It wasn't that long ago that guys like us didn't have this new fangled thing known as the internet. There was no such thing as message boards and most of us did not even know that others with the same interest existed, and if so, where. Now you have guys from Jersey communicating with guys from California and all points in between. There is a WORLD of information that can be gleaned from this forum without precise locality info being divulged.

I liken this to the old proverb (and I paraphrase) - give a guy a fish sandwich and you feed him for a day - teach him how to fish and you feed him for a life time.

Phil

User avatar
-EJ
Posts: 1078
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 11:17 am

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by -EJ » November 7th, 2011, 6:41 pm

You freakin' glory hound. (tell russ... you are pimping your work on a herp forum...)
Phil Peak wrote:But EJ, I want nothing more than to promote new discoveries by the neophytes to this forum. For that matter, we felt deeply enough about this subject that we actually authored a book on how to achieve these goals more effectively,

http://www.ecouniverse.com/product/108/

Revealing exact locality data to these folks does nothing to advance herpetology. I believe that assisting others in the how and when is more important than the where. Just think about it. It wasn't that long ago that guys like us didn't have this new fangled thing known as the internet. There was no such thing as message boards and most of us did not even know that others with the same interest existed, and if so, where. Now you have guys from Jersey communicating with guys from California and all points in between. There is a WORLD of information that can be gleaned from this forum without precise locality info being divulged.

I liken this to the old proverb (and I paraphrase) - give a guy a fish sandwich and you feed him for a day - teach him how to fish and you feed him for a life time.

Phil

User avatar
Don Becker
Posts: 3331
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 3:21 am
Location: Iowa
Contact:

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by Don Becker » November 7th, 2011, 6:47 pm

Personally, I enjoy finding animals at spots that I found on my own much more than at spots someone told me about. I have plenty of people I could ask about where to find things in Iowa, but I haven't done so.

User avatar
Phil Peak
Posts: 523
Joined: June 20th, 2010, 7:17 am
Location: Kentucky
Contact:

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by Phil Peak » November 7th, 2011, 6:55 pm

Not trying to do that at all EJ. Most everyone on this forum is already aware of this book and I brought it up only to illustrate my position on this subject.

Phil

corey.raimond
Posts: 240
Joined: July 20th, 2010, 8:43 pm

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by corey.raimond » November 7th, 2011, 6:57 pm

To desertwalker,

I agree with most of the people posting, better to be safe than sorry. I don't tell people where I find animals, nor do I expect/want/need anyone to tell me where they found theirs.

-Corey

User avatar
-EJ
Posts: 1078
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 11:17 am

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by -EJ » November 7th, 2011, 7:11 pm

Duhhhh... it's your avitar. You should be proud. I was being an ass... as usual.
Phil Peak wrote:Not trying to do that at all EJ. Most everyone on this forum is already aware of this book and I brought it up only to illustrate my position on this subject.

Phil

hellihooks
Posts: 8025
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
Location: Hesperia, California.
Contact:

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by hellihooks » November 7th, 2011, 7:13 pm

I have yet to flip a Z... cause I refuse any but the most general advice... and TELL People... DON"T mention ANY spots, when talking to me about Z's (and rubbers)... cause then I'll never go there. I WILL figure it out myself. I occasionally make an exception to that rule when I'm in another part of the State, and herping with a buddy, at his 'spot(s)' for Z's... which has only been once... He couldn't believe we 'got skunked'... :roll: :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol: jim

User avatar
-EJ
Posts: 1078
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 11:17 am

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by -EJ » November 7th, 2011, 7:18 pm

me too... I know where they are... I've seen the actual locations posted here... on the f'n internet... I've not found one... in situ. So frustrating.
hellihooks wrote:I have yet to flip a Z... cause I refuse any but the most general advice... and TELL People... DON"T mention ANY spots, when talking to me about Z's (and rubbers)... cause then I'll never go there. I WILL figure it out myself. I occasionally make an exception to that rule when I'm in another part of the State, and herping with a buddy, at his 'spot(s)' for Z's... which has only been once... He couldn't believe we 'got skunked'... :roll: :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol: jim

User avatar
Phil Peak
Posts: 523
Joined: June 20th, 2010, 7:17 am
Location: Kentucky
Contact:

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by Phil Peak » November 7th, 2011, 7:24 pm

psyon wrote:Personally, I enjoy finding animals at spots that I found on my own much more than at spots someone told me about. I have plenty of people I could ask about where to find things in Iowa, but I haven't done so.
Me too. Theres nothing more satisfying than identifying what you believe could be a key habitat outside the known range for whats considered a rare species - following up, and hitting paydirt! Now thats a good feeling and the essence of field herping IMO. Lots of other interesting and important info can be gathered once found, but first you you have to be able to find them.

Phil

hellihooks
Posts: 8025
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
Location: Hesperia, California.
Contact:

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by hellihooks » November 7th, 2011, 7:45 pm

psyon wrote:Personally, I enjoy finding animals at spots that I found on my own much more than at spots someone told me about. I have plenty of people I could ask about where to find things in Iowa, but I haven't done so.
There's snakes in Iowa? go figure... :lol: :lol: :lol:

User avatar
Fundad
Posts: 5721
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 6:11 am
Location: Los Angeles County
Contact:

Re: Really, has it come to this?

Post by Fundad » November 7th, 2011, 7:57 pm

Well EJ I enjoy helping younger herpers and many trips are for just that..

I think your overreacting to a little discernment,
Image


but than again I have never seen you post anything of interest on the forum, unlike some of those here,that you are being so quick to bash for their point of view. :lol:
Image

Here is a just a few highlights of last year or two

Me helping two youngsters to their first ever boa finds
Image

Image

First ever snake Hunt 17yrs old
Image

First ever Zonata
Image

This is just a tip of the iceburg..

Should we send our endless strings of PM's and emails helping young people learn, or phone call recordings..

BTW there more than this to my and others here contributions to the younger crowd.

Fundad

Post Reply