Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by ThamnElegans24 » November 5th, 2011, 3:46 pm

Wow that sucks.

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by cayrip » November 5th, 2011, 3:46 pm

Time to put together the "A" team.

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by TimCO » November 5th, 2011, 3:49 pm

:thumb:

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Josh Holbrook » November 5th, 2011, 4:03 pm

Seriously. Kind of ridiculous to declare it extinct when the best effort to find one in recent history has been my mere week of trapping.

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by mikemike » November 5th, 2011, 4:37 pm

Big bummer if they are, but hopefully they'll be proved wrong.

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Josh Holbrook » November 5th, 2011, 5:21 pm

cayrip wrote:Time to put together the "A" team.

I think we could do it. Anybody want to work on a NSF grant?

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Natalie McNear » November 5th, 2011, 6:42 pm

I'm free from January to August and would love to traipse around the swamps of south Florida all day to look for Farancia. Where do I sign up? :lol:

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Mike VanValen » November 5th, 2011, 6:59 pm

Count me in.

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by FastSnake17 » November 5th, 2011, 7:17 pm

I'd be more than willing! I'd be ready to go come March, possibly earlier. If you're serious about the grant, I'd love to contribute if you could use the assistance.

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Paul White » November 5th, 2011, 8:50 pm

I hope they're wrong...but when was the last one found? I mean, Florida isn't exactly the Outback or the Mongolian steppes...

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by joeysgreen » November 5th, 2011, 11:27 pm

Natalie, how does one get to be free from January to August? I"m totally in the wrong proffesion!

Ian

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Mark Brown » November 6th, 2011, 3:08 am

Paul White wrote:I hope they're wrong...but when was the last one found? I mean, Florida isn't exactly the Outback or the Mongolian steppes...
One of the above articles says 1952. Didn't Ross Allen find the only specimens on record, and describe the subspecies? My memory is a little fuzzy on these.

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by BillMcGighan » November 6th, 2011, 6:28 am

You go folks!!!!!

I think this would be a fun and noble cause, and no expedition (I can count about 5 that I know of since 1970, including at least one with Ross himself) to find them has had a bigger cheer leader than me,,,,,,,

I want USFW to be wrong. USFW probably wants to be wrong,

and, anyone who has been to the specific creek area knows the tough conditions (private land, low visibility water, mosquitoes the size of a Dodge truck, etc, etc.,,,,)

Good luck….

Even with the 5 locks that are opened on demand during the day and closed from 2130 to 0600 (prime eel movement time) that control access to salt water for this catadramous fish, there are populations of eels in Lake Okeechobee. I still can’t help but asking:
What is the density of the American Eel population is in Fish Creek today?

PS
For those who didn’t catch Josh’s fine post a year ago:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3056&hilit=Fish+rainbow

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Mike Pingleton » November 6th, 2011, 6:57 am

Josh Holbrook wrote:
cayrip wrote:Time to put together the "A" team.
I think we could do it. Anybody want to work on a NSF grant?
I'm in. Do we need a grant? All the mudbugs you can eat, right?

"Certainty of death - small chance of success. What are we waiting for?"

Image

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Mike Pingleton » November 6th, 2011, 6:59 am

BillMcGighan wrote: What is the density of the American Eel population is in Fish Creek today?

PS
For those who didn’t catch Josh’s fine post a year ago:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3056&hilit=Fish+rainbow


That is a very good question. Josh, did you trap any eels during your expedition?

thanks for the link, Bill!

-Mike

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Tamara D. McConnell » November 6th, 2011, 7:07 am

I would SO love to participate in this mission. I have to work until June 1, though. If there is a way I can assist despite my work schedule, holler at me.

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Josh Holbrook » November 6th, 2011, 7:35 am

Not an eel in sight, I'm afriad. But that said, one week of trapping with 14 or so traps is a small sample size to say eels are "not" there. That said, Rainbow snakes themselves are hard to find where they're common... By the way, there have been 3 found - 1 by Ross Allen and 2 by Wilfred T Niell IN THE SAME NIGHT (we should be so lucky...)

Some more info on the SF rainbow snake:

http://fieldventures.wordpress.com/2011 ... bow-snake/


And the area:

http://fieldventures.wordpress.com/2011 ... creek-wma/

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Josh Holbrook » November 6th, 2011, 7:36 am

Mike Pingleton wrote:
Josh Holbrook wrote:
cayrip wrote:Time to put together the "A" team.
I think we could do it. Anybody want to work on a NSF grant?
I'm in. Do we need a grant? All the mudbugs you can eat, right?

"Certainty of death - small chance of success. What are we waiting for?"

Image

Do we need a grant for a week or two? No; but any more time than that and you've gotta start paying someone to put their life on hold and check traps everyday.

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Daniel D Dye » November 6th, 2011, 7:46 am

This is a what I consider a worthwhile adventure...very tempting.

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by TimCO » November 6th, 2011, 7:53 am

Let's put it together. Dates aside, who has a strong interest in conducting an intensive survey for Farancia erytrogramma seminola?

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Josh Holbrook » November 6th, 2011, 7:54 am

Thumbs up if you're in. :thumb:

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Daniel D Dye » November 6th, 2011, 8:01 am

Dates are important...I'm planning a trip out west to see you guys, Tim.

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Natalie McNear » November 6th, 2011, 8:04 am

:thumb:
joeysgreen wrote:Natalie, how does one get to be free from January to August? I"m totally in the wrong proffesion!

Ian
I'm just a lowly biology student trying to find work during a semester I have off (I'm finishing up at my community college, then in the fall semester 2012 I'm going to a university). I've applied for lots of jobs on the TAMU Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences job board, but I haven't heard back from any of them presumably because I don't have much "official" experience, and there are tons of other people applying for those same jobs that are more qualified than me because they already have a piece of paper that says they're educated. But how can I get that necessary experience if no one will hire me?

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by BillMcGighan » November 6th, 2011, 8:10 am

Dates are important.

Anytime after the Holidays for me.

:thumb:

I can provide a 15 foot canoe for low water; 18.5 foot Center consol with a 10 inch draft for high water or lake mouth.

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by TimCO » November 6th, 2011, 8:21 am

June is a good rainbow time.

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Bill Love » November 6th, 2011, 8:38 am

For what it's worth to the discussion, I and three companions spent a day on Fisheating Creek in canoes inapproximately 2004, and we stopped to seine at a half-dozen shallow spots upstream of Hwy. 27 / the campground. We made a special effort to drag the 30-ish-foot long seine under weedy patches that we thought might harbor Farancia, but barely got only a few scant, tiny fish. Not a turtle was caught, or even seen anywhere along the river. Not a snake or frog of any kind either, just numerous, "friendly" alligators in the 5 - 8-foot range that were far too inquisitive about the styro bobbers on the seine. Folks must be giving them marshmallows, bread or something white for them to be so curious about the bobbers. Watch out if you're out in the water there!

I also had a dozen or so members of the Calusa Herp. Society out there on a camp-over night roughly a year after that in the summer. After dark we walked the riverbank as far as we could in the vicinity of the campground with lots of strong lights, but failed to find evidence of any herps in the river itself that time too (except gators).

For those attempting the next hunt during the warm months, I salute you and wish you luck. As for that silly comment about skeeters the size of Dodge trucks - Forget it, they're really only the size of Volkswagons.

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Daryl Eby » November 6th, 2011, 8:56 am

Josh Holbrook wrote:there have been 3 found - 1 by Ross Allen and 2 by Wilfred T Niell IN THE SAME NIGHT
DOUBLE RAINBOW! OH MY GOD. OH MY GOD. OH MY GOD. So bright and vivid. Too much. Oh my god. So intense.

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Natalie McNear » November 6th, 2011, 8:59 am

LOL.

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Jason B » November 6th, 2011, 9:35 am

Eels are no longer able to migrate into the creek, presumably due to the lock and dam at Moore Haven. Fish surveys haven't turned up eels in the Lake in several decades. Searches at the type locality are pointless. I'd focus on tribs and swamps along the upper Caloosahatchee in hopes an undiscovered population exist there. Skiffs and canoes would be required to search those areas.

Count me in for the search, but I feel USFWS's designation is warranted.

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Tim Borski » November 6th, 2011, 3:20 pm

Tim and I talked about seminola awhile ago and I keep going back to one particular statement he said: "It was never determined for sure whether F. seminola was an eel eater."

Tim

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Mark Brown » November 6th, 2011, 3:29 pm

What's the taxonomic distinction between erytrogramma and seminola? I assume that it's been studied enough to positively determine that the subspecific status is valid? I know the type locality is disjunct from erytrogramma - what else determines its subspecific status?

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Daniel D Dye » November 6th, 2011, 3:32 pm

Tim Borski wrote:Tim and I talked about seminola awhile ago and I keep going back to one particular statement he said: "It was never determined for sure whether F. seminola was an eel eater."

Tim
Brilliant...that has never crossed my mind.

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Natalie McNear » November 6th, 2011, 3:42 pm

Is there any reason to suspect it wasn't an eel eater though? I guess if it didn't rely on them as heavily as the other subspecies, it might be out there still, subsisting on salamanders and whatnot. Someone should look at the stomach contents of the holotype.

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Coluber Constrictor » November 6th, 2011, 4:27 pm

Maybe they eat amphiumas, siren, etc.

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Josh Holbrook » November 6th, 2011, 5:26 pm

So, the plan is to find one and gut it to see what it's been eating?

And, seriously, I wouldn't assume it doesn't eat eels; but I still would like to give it a shot.

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Jason B » November 6th, 2011, 5:28 pm

There doesn't appear to be many salamanders at the type locale. Josh's trapping efforts did not produce any. I've spent many hours dredging and sorting through hyacinth mats and found zero salamanders. Through similar efforts at nearby streams I've found sirens, amphiumas and newts. As pristine as FEC appears from the surface the aquatic ecosystem is completely altered. Even if seminola was not an eel specialist there is little for it to eat at FEC aside from butterfly cichlids and hoplos.

Dozens of herpers from amateurs to governmental pros have searched FEC for rainbow snakes using various techniques. No additional records have occurred in the last sixty years. Adult rainbow snakes feed exclusively on eels. Eels were historically present at FEC but the closest they can make it now is the Upper Caloosahatchee around 15 miles away. That's where additional searches should take place.

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Josh Holbrook » November 6th, 2011, 5:31 pm

Jason B wrote:There doesn't appear to be many salamanders at the type locale. Josh's trapping efforts did not produce any. I've spent many hours dredging and sorting through hyacinth mats and found zero salamanders. Through similar efforts at nearby streams I've found sirens, amphiumas and newts. As pristine as FEC appears from the surface the aquatic ecosystem is completely altered. Even if seminola was not an eel specialist there is little for it to eat at FEC aside from butterfly cichlids and hoplos.

Dozens of herpers from amateurs to governmental pros have searched FEC for rainbow snakes using various techniques. No additional records have occurred in the last sixty years. Adult rainbow snakes feed exclusively on eels. Eels were historically present at FEC but the closest they can make it now is the Upper Caloosahatchee around 15 miles away. That's where additional searches should take place.

What about Fisheating Bay?

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Jason B » November 6th, 2011, 5:57 pm

I don't think eels can get into the lake in enough numbers to support them. Maybe there's more amphiumas/sirens in the bay? I wouldn't look for rainbow snakes upstream of dams anywhere in their range. If eels can't get to an area in enough numbers to feed a population of rainbow snakes then searching there is pointless.

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by noah k. » November 6th, 2011, 6:16 pm

Say one of us turns one up, what would we do with it?

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Josh Holbrook » November 6th, 2011, 7:13 pm

Jason B wrote:I don't think eels can get into the lake in enough numbers to support them. Maybe there's more amphiumas/sirens in the bay? I wouldn't look for rainbow snakes upstream of dams anywhere in their range. If eels can't get to an area in enough numbers to feed a population of rainbow snakes then searching there is pointless.
A friend that works for water management traps em' (Sirens and Amphiumas) by the hundreds in Fisheating Bay.
noah k. wrote:Say one of us turns one up, what would we do with it?
My permit I have currently stipulates it can be kept alive at my university, eventually to end at the Florida Museum of Natural History. That said, a permit is not necessarily needed to posses a rainbow snake, but it is needed to trap in the known local for them.

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by lashinala2 » November 7th, 2011, 4:30 am

"The Florida fairy shrimp was known from a single pond just south of Gainesville. The pond was destroyed by development, and the species hasn’t been detected elsewhere."
Would it kill them to develop somewhere other than the one pond? Really?
And if y'all go, this time find a fresh market eel, not a pre-packaged one from China or Korea. The packaging process uses a chem that we can't smell, but I bet rainbows can.
haha

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by hellihooks » November 7th, 2011, 7:32 am

I found a Sonora semiannulata semiannulata (Variable Groundsnake) out at Sawtooth Canyon, near Barstow Ca, when the last one found in the area was by Stebbins in 1958. The canyon is now camping only, and closed to offroading, because of my find. I would dearly love to find another there (Nat?) but my point is... it can and does happen... :thumb: jim

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Natalie McNear » November 7th, 2011, 10:43 am

Um, yes, that's what I was saying, you pretty much reiterated what I said. The degree is ONE major reason why people get hired. It's hard enough to find a job listing on that site that doesn't flat out require at least a bachelor's degree, and the ones that don't still require tons of experience. But how can I get experience if no one will hire anyone without experience? It's like you need to know someone who knows someone who knows someone doing that sort of work just to get your foot in the door. I go to a small community college that doesn't conduct research of any sort, so I don't have professors and researchers I can just volunteer with on the weekends when I feel like it. My school doesn't offer a herpetology class. I volunteer with my local herp societies whenever the opportunity arises (anyone who went to the Sacramento show probably saw me showing and talking about my Rubber Boa to kids). In the mean time, until I transfer, all I can do is go out in the field on my own and study herps myself. If you were in my situation, you'd understand where I'm coming from.

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Bryan Hamilton » November 7th, 2011, 10:56 am

Natalie,

I can sympathize with you. Its definitely a tough field to break in to.

Have you thought about a graduate degree? A masters thesis usually only takes two years and comes with experience. And you get to work on a system or species that you are interested in. It doesn't pay much but its something to think about.

Another route to look at is Student Conservation Association. They have quite a few ecology type jobs. They also don't pay much but it is a good way to get some experience.

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by hellihooks » November 7th, 2011, 10:58 am

Used to be you could get hired as a Zoo Keeper, based on your 'hands on' experience... now... don't even bother applying unless you have at least a BS or MS, and preferably still in school.
Don't know that it would help at all Natalie, but I'm sure we Ca. Nafha officers would write you references, for the fine work you do here in Ca. With Schell as regional VP, perhaps that will help with the permits for your Angel Island Survey, you've been trying to get going... :thumb: jim

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by hellihooks » November 7th, 2011, 12:06 pm

John Vanek wrote:
hellihooks wrote:Used to be you could get hired as a Zoo Keeper, based on your 'hands on' experience... now... don't even bother applying unless you have at least a BS or MS, and preferably still in school.
Yes, and I shudder to think of all those poor animals back in the day. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I know there are great people who have worked without degrees, I just feel that "formal" education can be an important part in the process.
I agree, and approve the now more stringent standards. That said... it is often 'who' you know, rather than 'what'. And even with degrees.. you often start at the very bottom... ticket sales, food court...groundskeeping, turd-herder... can be years before you actually touch an animal... :roll: jim

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Natalie McNear » November 7th, 2011, 12:41 pm

John Vanek wrote:
Natalie McNear wrote:The degree is ONE major reason why people get hired. It's hard enough to find a job listing on that site that doesn't flat out require at least a bachelor's degree, and the ones that don't still require tons of experience.
I'm going to disagree here, I've been following that job board for 6 years now, and I can say that MOST seasonal field jobs do NOT require a degree. They might prefer classwork towards such a degree, but not a completed bachelors for seasonal field work.

I would suggest contacting biology professors from Universities in your area, they are often very receptive to people who would like to volunteer their time. Also, the biology professors at your college will most likely know other professors in the area, and can possibly refer you somewhere.
Things must have been different back then, the people posting the jobs must have been less picky. Just taking a quick glance at the jobs posted in the past week, over half of them require some sort of degree. And most of the ones that don't still require skills I haven't had the opportunity to acquire yet, such as radiotelemetry and GIS. I've still applied for such jobs, believe me, emphasizing that while I haven't been trained in those activities yet, I am an extremely fast learner, but so far no success. Not sure how I would go about contacting professors from universities... I went to UC Davis for a year, and most of the professors wouldn't even talk to undergraduates, and acted like doing a lecture was some sort of punishment (that was a main reason why I left and went to community college). I can't imagine that they'd respond differently to a student from another school asking them for some sort of work, even if unpaid. I hadn't heard of the SCA before, so I'll take a look through that and see if there's anything I could be qualified for.

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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Josh Holbrook » November 7th, 2011, 12:45 pm

I know for me, getting a job is all about loving what you do and seizing every chance to do it. As someone said: forget drinking on the weekends and herp. And look for "official" excuses to herp: i.e. start emailing wildlife organizations (state, federal, private, whatever) offer to do a herp survey at local parks/etc, and start emailing professors to be a slave laborer/volunteer researcher.

hellihooks wrote:
John Vanek wrote:
hellihooks wrote:Used to be you could get hired as a Zoo Keeper, based on your 'hands on' experience... now... don't even bother applying unless you have at least a BS or MS, and preferably still in school.
Yes, and I shudder to think of all those poor animals back in the day. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I know there are great people who have worked without degrees, I just feel that "formal" education can be an important part in the process.
I agree, and approve the now more stringent standards. That said... it is often 'who' you know, rather than 'what'. And even with degrees.. you often start at the very bottom... ticket sales, food court...groundskeeping, turd-herder... can be years before you actually touch an animal... :roll: jim
That can be the case, but honestly, I think getting a job based on relationships and merit isn't necessarily a bad thing: a lot of people hire because they know the person they're hiring and that they'll be a good employee.

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Natalie McNear
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Re: Farancia erytrogramma seminola declared extinct by FWS

Post by Natalie McNear » November 7th, 2011, 12:58 pm

Josh Holbrook wrote:I know for me, getting a job is all about loving what you do and seizing every chance to do it. As someone said: forget drinking on the weekends and herp. And look for "official" excuses to herp: i.e. start emailing wildlife organizations (state, federal, private, whatever) offer to do a herp survey at local parks/etc, and start emailing professors to be a slave laborer/volunteer researcher.
I don't drink at all and spend all my free time herping anyway, so I'm already one step ahead of you there. :lol: I had a nice thing going early this year trying to organize a herp survey at a local state park, but it soon became apparent it just wasn't something that I could do by myself. There are certain permits you have to apply for at both the state and local levels, and in order to get those permits you pretty much have to be a professional biologist working on an "official" project. I'd love more than anything to get that project rolling again, but I just don't know how.

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