Turtle ID

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Don Becker
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Turtle ID

Post by Don Becker »

I caught this turtle on a fishing line earlier this year. The fishing spot is an old sand pit right along the river. When I pulled the turtle in, I didn't really look that closely at it, but based on the size and shape of the shell, the only native thing it could have been in this part of the river was a False Map Turtle. Well, I was going through my records, and noticed the picture, and realized it had very different markings. Now I am wondering if it is a released Yellow Belly Slider, or something else.

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VAS
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Re: Turtle ID

Post by VAS »

Not a turtle expert but I am thinking it's an Old Red-eared slider that the markings "RED EAR" have faded with age.

But please wait for others to provide the correct ID.

Scott
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Don Becker
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Re: Turtle ID

Post by Don Becker »

I have seen other released RES in some lakes along the river up stream from here, but none of them have ever had such broad yellow markings on the head. Normally when the read fades, most of the yellow does as well. Even when they have pattern, the yellow lines are finer.
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Don Becker
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Re: Turtle ID

Post by Don Becker »

I've found a few photos of older RES with the broader yellow stripes. That's probably what it is, but I will wait for someone elses opinion to be sure.
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Dan Krull
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Re: Turtle ID

Post by Dan Krull »

Red ears and yellow bellies both have yellow lines. In my experience, the yellow belly (Trachemys scripta scripta) has two yellow lines, but one becomes quite large and club shaped behind the eye of the animal.

In the RES (Trachemys scripta elegans) you have two thin lines and then a red "ear" above and behind the eye. The part of the head you would need to look at for this description is slightly obscured.

I am certain, however, that it is Trachemys scripta. Whether it is elegans or scripta scripta, I leave to the turtle experts.

Dan

Edited to add this:

The scripta scripta will lose color with age as well, but in my (limited) experience, they lose the yellow at the same rate they do the red, so perhaps I'm leaning toward scripta scripta rather than elegans... not sure.
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Owen
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Re: Turtle ID

Post by Owen »

As sad as this sounds, I say Yellow-bellied Slider from my observations of them and RES out here in Northern CA where they're NOT NATIVE.
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Don Becker
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Re: Turtle ID

Post by Don Becker »

RES are native to the lower part of the Cedar River valley, but everyone tells me they are NOT native to the part I live on, no matter how often I am seeing them now. I'm not sure exactly how that works I guess. Everyone assumes all the ones we are seeing are released pets, but is it possible that no one bothered to take the time to document them in this part of the river until now?
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Dan Krull
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Re: Turtle ID

Post by Dan Krull »

One of our Small Scale Films research projects turned up false map turtles in Johnson County Kansas a few summers ago. Next to Douglas, its the most studied county in the state. Turtles aren't always on the radar, I guess.

Dan
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Mike VanValen
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Re: Turtle ID

Post by Mike VanValen »

It is definitely T. scripta. 99% sure it is T.s.scripta. Do you happen to have a plastron shot?
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Don Becker
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Re: Turtle ID

Post by Don Becker »

Mike VanValen wrote:It is definitely T. scripta. 99% sure it is T.s.scripta. Do you happen to have a plastron shot?
Nope. Like I said, I didn't even think much of it when we found it. Just held it up, and had my son snap a picture with my phone.
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VanAR
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Re: Turtle ID

Post by VanAR »

Could also be a cumberland slider. I'm working on a population where all 3 intergrade, and we see just about every conceivable combination of phenotypes, including ones like that.

Van
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-EJ
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Re: Turtle ID

Post by -EJ »

I suck on IDs but definately not RES... Yellow Bellied Slider... or some such off shoot.
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justinm
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Re: Turtle ID

Post by justinm »

I don't think it's a Red Eared Slider, having said that I'm not sure what it is. I'm saying this because of the shape of the beak, or at least what I can see of it.
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-EJ
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Re: Turtle ID

Post by -EJ »

Pseudemys for sure... Pseudemys concinna concinna?... because of its wide range. What river and state?
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Don Becker
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Re: Turtle ID

Post by Don Becker »

-EJ wrote:Pseudemys for sure... Pseudemys concinna concinna?... because of its wide range. What river and state?
It was in an old sand pit along side the Cedar River in Iowa.
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-EJ
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Re: Turtle ID

Post by -EJ »

It's not much of a stretch for it to occur there.

psyon wrote:
-EJ wrote:Pseudemys for sure... Pseudemys concinna concinna?... because of its wide range. What river and state?
It was in an old sand pit along side the Cedar River in Iowa.
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VanAR
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Re: Turtle ID

Post by VanAR »

Pseudemys for sure... Pseudemys concinna concinna?... because of its wide range. What river and state?
Head looks a little big to me for a concinna, but that could be the camera angle. I'm used to seeing those with tiny heads and huge shells, relative to Trachemys. The facial markings match that a bit better than Trachemys though.

Almost looks like a Pseudemys peninsularis. They have bigger heads and I've seen them with similar facial markings.

Definitely a weird one...
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-EJ
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Re: Turtle ID

Post by -EJ »

It does look like it but I'm looking more at the range... unless it is a 'saved' pet which it really does not look like. Considering the really hot summer... I'd say it was possible range extension.
VanAR wrote:
Pseudemys for sure... Pseudemys concinna concinna?... because of its wide range. What river and state?
Head looks a little big to me for a concinna, but that could be the camera angle. I'm used to seeing those with tiny heads and huge shells, relative to Trachemys. The facial markings match that a bit better than Trachemys though.

Almost looks like a Pseudemys peninsularis. They have bigger heads and I've seen them with similar facial markings.

Definitely a weird one...
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Berkeley Boone
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Re: Turtle ID

Post by Berkeley Boone »

It's a yellowbelly, Don.
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Chris Smith
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Re: Turtle ID

Post by Chris Smith »

psyon wrote:RES are native to the lower part of the Cedar River valley, but everyone tells me they are NOT native to the part I live on, no matter how often I am seeing them now. I'm not sure exactly how that works I guess. Everyone assumes all the ones we are seeing are released pets, but is it possible that no one bothered to take the time to document them in this part of the river until now?

Without the turtle in hand, I am going to refrain from making an ID.

Regarding RES... An alternative hypothesis for the increase in RES is natural range extension (especially if they are already in the watershed)... If you take tissue samples from RES (both suspected releasees and natives) someone (maybe even myself) would be interested in trying to address the "where the HELL are these things coming from question." :)


-Chris
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-EJ
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Re: Turtle ID

Post by -EJ »

It's most certainly not an RES and is a form of YBS. That's a given. It looks like it is natural and not a pet. The range extension I was refering to is the YBS... I'm sure the RES is there already.

Again... they live in rivers... waterways...
Chris Smith wrote:
psyon wrote:RES are native to the lower part of the Cedar River valley, but everyone tells me they are NOT native to the part I live on, no matter how often I am seeing them now. I'm not sure exactly how that works I guess. Everyone assumes all the ones we are seeing are released pets, but is it possible that no one bothered to take the time to document them in this part of the river until now?

Without the turtle in hand, I am going to refrain from making an ID.

Regarding RES... An alternative hypothesis for the increase in RES is natural range extension (especially if they are already in the watershed)... If you take tissue samples from RES (both suspected releasees and natives) someone (maybe even myself) would be interested in trying to address the "where the HELL are these things coming from question." :)


-Chris
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Don Becker
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Re: Turtle ID

Post by Don Becker »

If the RES in this area are native, and not established from pets, it would be a decent extension of their natural range to this area. If it is a YBS, then I have to assume it is a released pet, or simply a RES showing uncommon traits. Otherwise, it would be about a 570 mile range extension.
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-EJ
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Re: Turtle ID

Post by -EJ »

Whatever. It is most likely Pseudemys and it is most likely a wild animal... not captive raised/released. It could have been caught further south and released... think of the odds.
psyon wrote:If the RES in this area are native, and not established from pets, it would be a decent extension of their natural range to this area. If it is a YBS, then I have to assume it is a released pet, or simply a RES showing uncommon traits. Otherwise, it would be about a 570 mile range extension.
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Mike VanValen
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Re: Turtle ID

Post by Mike VanValen »

-EJ wrote:Whatever. It is most likely Pseudemys and it is most likely a wild animal... not captive raised/released. It could have been caught further south and released... think of the odds.
Wait, just a few posts above you say you believe it is a YBS. Sliders are in the genus Trachemys.
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-EJ
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Re: Turtle ID

Post by -EJ »

(panic attack, panic atack... back peddle quick)

Mixed up my common names... river cooter is what I was looking for... hell... I don't know what I'm talking about.

I actually questioned that to myself in the thread... I still say Pseudemys... whatever the common name is.
Mike VanValen wrote:
-EJ wrote:Whatever. It is most likely Pseudemys and it is most likely a wild animal... not captive raised/released. It could have been caught further south and released... think of the odds.
Wait, just a few posts above you say you believe it is a YBS. Sliders are in the genus Trachemys.
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justinm
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Re: Turtle ID

Post by justinm »

Don,

I've gone over the 5 or 6 Red Eareds I've actually had in hand, and then various other aquatics, and I'm convinced it's not a red eared slider. It does seem to me, and my humble opinion to be a Pseudemys though, but that's the end of my knowledge.
corey.raimond
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Re: Turtle ID

Post by corey.raimond »

I agree with Justin and some others, doesn't look like a slider to me.

-Corey
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Don Becker
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Re: Turtle ID

Post by Don Becker »

If it makes any difference in your opinions... My front finger shown in that picture is 1 1/8" wide at that first knuckle. In the picture it's about 45 pixels wide. The marginal scale just behind the leg of that turtle is 50px wide in the picture, making it about 1 1/4". The same scale on my turtle up stairs is 3/4" and his overall carapace length is 6 1/2" if the ratio is constant, that turtle in the picture would be just shy of 10 3/4". My estimate from memory was about 10".
joeysgreen
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Re: Turtle ID

Post by joeysgreen »

I'm 2400kilometres away from my copy of Turtles and Tortoises of the United States and Canada. Does no one else have a copy of this? My first guess is a T.s.scripta but I havn't looked into the turtles of the area in a while.

Ian
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Don Becker
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Re: Turtle ID

Post by Don Becker »

I am going with T. s. scripta. I was told to look at the higher stripe as it goes behind the eye to see if it becomes blurred and irregular. It's hard to tell in the original picture I posted, but in this larger crop I think that is how it appears.

Image
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justinm
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Re: Turtle ID

Post by justinm »

I would agree but I'm using the beak as my other diagnostic, the beak is right for T scripta sp. Remember that color is the weakest ID tool.
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