toad ID help- do not have a clue

Dedicated exclusively to field herping.

Moderator: Scott Waters

Post Reply
User avatar
cachoron
Posts: 144
Joined: August 31st, 2011, 6:52 am
Location: Valle del Yaqui, Sonora

toad ID help- do not have a clue

Post by cachoron »

I've been ok with lizards, at least to know the family they belong to, but I really do not have a clue on toads... I found this guy and I do not even know if it is just a juvenile or an adult. I really need to get my books!!

I've found a lot of O. mazatlanesis that I got help on the forum to identify but this guy does not have a mask

Only clue is that was found in south Sonora, after some rain

Image

Image

Image


thanks in advance
Image
User avatar
ThamnElegans24
Posts: 406
Joined: November 23rd, 2010, 6:44 pm
Location: Mesa, Arizona

Re: toad ID help- do not have a clue

Post by ThamnElegans24 »

Do they have Woodhouse's Toads in Sonora? Because that is what it looks like to me.
User avatar
Mike Pingleton
Posts: 1471
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 7:45 am
Location: One of the boys from Illinois
Contact:

Re: toad ID help- do not have a clue

Post by Mike Pingleton »

Looks like a young Marbled Toad (Ollotis marmorea) to me, Francisco. I'm going by the shape and position of the paratoid glands, and by those dark teardrop-shaped markings on either side of the lighter dorsal line. Here's one of many we saw on the road one night in south Sonora:

Image

cheers, Mike
User avatar
cachoron
Posts: 144
Joined: August 31st, 2011, 6:52 am
Location: Valle del Yaqui, Sonora

Re: toad ID help- do not have a clue

Post by cachoron »

Mike,

I did homework, according to Rorabaugh (AN INTRODUCTION TO THE HERPETOFAUNA OF MAINLAND SONORA,
MÉXICO, WITH COMMENTS ON CONSERVATION AND MANAGEMENT) we supose to have:

B. alvarius
B. cognatus
B. Kelloggi
B. marinus..... discarded (not smooth skin)
B. mazatlanensis.....discarded (no mask)
B. punctatus......discarded (no red dots)
B. retiformis
B. woodhousei... According to Rorabaugh should be discarded because lives in the desert and highlands, not on thornscrub

I do not find marmorea on it....... am I missing some info? is there other list i should consider? or your ID is a subspecis?

sorry for so many questions... I'm learning
User avatar
Mike Pingleton
Posts: 1471
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 7:45 am
Location: One of the boys from Illinois
Contact:

Re: toad ID help- do not have a clue

Post by Mike Pingleton »

Yeah, Rorabaugh only lists it as being found in Sinaloa, but other sources indicate marmorea as occurring in southern Sonora. AmbibiaWeb, for example:

http://amphibiaweb.org/cgi/amphib_query ... =marmoreus

Also in Mexico Herpetology:

http://www.mexico-herps.com/anura/bufo/bufo-marmoreus

This toad is often listed as Bufo marmoreus in a lot of reference material, and occasionally under Cranopsis.

cheers! Mike
cachoron wrote:Mike,

I did homework, according to Rorabaugh (AN INTRODUCTION TO THE HERPETOFAUNA OF MAINLAND SONORA,
MÉXICO, WITH COMMENTS ON CONSERVATION AND MANAGEMENT) we supose to have:

B. alvarius
B. cognatus
B. Kelloggi
B. marinus..... discarded (not smooth skin)
B. mazatlanensis.....discarded (no mask)
B. punctatus......discarded (no red dots)
B. retiformis
B. woodhousei... According to Rorabaugh should be discarded because lives in the desert and highlands, not on thornscrub

I do not find marmorea on it....... am I missing some info? is there other list i should consider? or your ID is a subspecis?

sorry for so many questions... I'm learning
User avatar
cachoron
Posts: 144
Joined: August 31st, 2011, 6:52 am
Location: Valle del Yaqui, Sonora

Re: toad ID help- do not have a clue

Post by cachoron »

Mike thanks for the patience and lessons but........ here are some dumb, stupid questions:

would you consider this websites as valid as a publication? how can you tell diferences about good and bad on so many websites? Can you quote websites on an article?

When I was in college, long, very long time ago, there were not websites, but I know that mistakes usually spread very easy on the web (wikipedia is a very good example)

I am using some web images an info but kinda trust better some think in ink.... I guess I am old

thanks again and sorry to play the "abogado del diablo"
User avatar
Mike Pingleton
Posts: 1471
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 7:45 am
Location: One of the boys from Illinois
Contact:

Re: toad ID help- do not have a clue

Post by Mike Pingleton »

I think it depends on the source - AmphibiaWeb, for example, usually cites the existing literature. For the Mexico Herpetology site, the owner has considerable experience with many Mexican species. I consider both to be pretty good sources. As far as quoting websites, I suppose that depends on what you mean by 'article', and by the context and relevance.

I agree, mistakes spread on the web very easily, which is why it's good to consult multiple resources.

And please, feel free to continue to play the abogado del diablo :thumb:

cheers
cachoron wrote:Mike thanks for the patience and lessons but........ here are some dumb, stupid questions:

would you consider this websites as valid as a publication? how can you tell diferences about good and bad on so many websites? Can you quote websites on an article?

When I was in college, long, very long time ago, there were not websites, but I know that mistakes usually spread very easy on the web (wikipedia is a very good example)

I am using some web images an info but kinda trust better some think in ink.... I guess I am old

thanks again and sorry to play the "abogado del diablo"
joeysgreen
Posts: 523
Joined: June 11th, 2010, 9:09 pm
Location: Edmonton, Alberta

Re: toad ID help- do not have a clue

Post by joeysgreen »

I was thinking it could be a young A.punctatus and was going to ask if they range down that far. Now I see that they do, I'd have to ask; do they have red spots when that small? Are red spots even a solid identifying trademark despite the name?

But, these are just thoughts from someone unfamiliar with Sonoran anurans. The above posts are probably a lot more helpfull.

Ian
User avatar
cachoron
Posts: 144
Joined: August 31st, 2011, 6:52 am
Location: Valle del Yaqui, Sonora

Re: toad ID help- do not have a clue

Post by cachoron »

joeysgreen wrote:I was thinking it could be a young A.punctatus and was going to ask if they range down that far. Now I see that they do, I'd have to ask; do they have red spots when that small? Are red spots even a solid identifying trademark despite the name?

But, these are just thoughts from someone unfamiliar with Sonoran anurans. The above posts are probably a lot more helpfull.

Ian
Not really Ian, keys are:

1.- A prominet, swollen parotid gland present on neck behind eye...... Bufonidae

2.- parotid glands smaller, not extending below the level of the tympanum

3.- parotoid glands small, round, triangular or vertical oval, leght little different from width

4.- cranial crest absent................ Anaxyrus punctatus

keys to the amphibians and reptiles of sonora, chihuahua and coahuila, mexico (lemos-espinal et al/2009)
joeysgreen
Posts: 523
Joined: June 11th, 2010, 9:09 pm
Location: Edmonton, Alberta

Re: toad ID help- do not have a clue

Post by joeysgreen »

It was the round paratoids that had me thinking punctatus; but heck, I"ve never even seen a wild red spotted toad either. I just had to get somewhat familiar with them when trying to key out my Woodhousii find.

In any case, that sounds like a good book. I should pick that one up someday :)

Ian
El Cid Herpeador
Posts: 8
Joined: October 14th, 2011, 5:23 pm

Re: toad ID help- do not have a clue

Post by El Cid Herpeador »

Incilius occidentalis.
will lattea
Posts: 160
Joined: August 30th, 2010, 11:39 am
Location: East Coast

Re: toad ID help- do not have a clue

Post by will lattea »

Looks like Incilius occidentalis to me assuming you were further South in Sonora. Further North/ East in the Sierras they've recently described a similar Incilius mccoyi so be on the look out for those as well depending on where you are. Don't be afraid to ask questions! I'd rather ask a dumb question than stay dumb. :)

-Will
Paul White
Posts: 2288
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 9:52 pm
Location: Amarillo, Texas

Re: toad ID help- do not have a clue

Post by Paul White »

joey: it looks nothing like punctatus at all.

edit: wasn't trying to sound the brusque :oops: sorry. Even as babies punctatus look different than that though.
User avatar
cachoron
Posts: 144
Joined: August 31st, 2011, 6:52 am
Location: Valle del Yaqui, Sonora

Re: toad ID help- do not have a clue

Post by cachoron »

will lattea wrote:Looks like Incilius occidentalis to me assuming you were further South in Sonora. Further North/ East in the Sierras they've recently described a similar Incilius mccoyi so be on the look out for those as well depending on where you are. Don't be afraid to ask questions! I'd rather ask a dumb question than stay dumb. :)

-Will
Cid herpeador (tu camioneta se llama Babieca? ;) ) Will, I am in South Sonora, in the Yaqui valley. It is lower lands

Incilius occidentalis (or Bufo occidentalis the way is reported with Rorabaugh) is metioned to be in highlands. Common name sapo de pino
will lattea
Posts: 160
Joined: August 30th, 2010, 11:39 am
Location: East Coast

Re: toad ID help- do not have a clue

Post by will lattea »

Yeah, they had to go and split up Bufonidae... I still prefer Bufo but I've been corrected recently for not using Anaxyrus and Incilius. From what I hear the pine toads may be complex species throughout the Sierras with mccoyi being the most recent description aside from occidentalis. I'm not sure exactly how low in elevation they'll go but you're within range assuming there is good habitat- they'll still use lowland scrub if there are streams for breeding nearby.

Try amphibiaweb.org if you're having trouble with amphibian ID's- there are a lot of good pictures and range maps for reference:

http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_q ... ifeform=ne

-Will
El Cid Herpeador
Posts: 8
Joined: October 14th, 2011, 5:23 pm

Re: toad ID help- do not have a clue

Post by El Cid Herpeador »

cachoron wrote:
will lattea wrote:Looks like Incilius occidentalis to me assuming you were further South in Sonora. Further North/ East in the Sierras they've recently described a similar Incilius mccoyi so be on the look out for those as well depending on where you are. Don't be afraid to ask questions! I'd rather ask a dumb question than stay dumb. :)

-Will
Cid herpeador (tu camioneta se llama Babieca? ;) ) Will, I am in South Sonora, in the Yaqui valley. It is lower lands

Incilius occidentalis (or Bufo occidentalis the way is reported with Rorabaugh) is metioned to be in highlands. Common name sapo de pino
En realidad estas madres I. occidentalis están en todas partes los he visto "bajos" en Selva Baja Caducifolia (Bosque Tropical Caducifolio), desde 1000 msnm hasta unos 3000 msnm. Si es occidentalis, no es I. mccoyi porque tiene una linea media dorsal clara. Saludos.
User avatar
cachoron
Posts: 144
Joined: August 31st, 2011, 6:52 am
Location: Valle del Yaqui, Sonora

Re: toad ID help- do not have a clue

Post by cachoron »

[quote="El Cid Herpeador"]

En realidad estas madres quote]

Ahora si estamos hablando en español ;)

Tienes alguna guia de campo o algun libro que me recomiendes? ahi te encargo pues quisiera tener algo mas de literatura. Aqui en el valle solo quedan terrenos agricolas pero existe una gran red de canales y drenes con agua permanente por donde pueden viajar muchas especies. El agua viene de las presas en lo alto de la sierra

En que estados las has encontrado?
Saludos
Post Reply