Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

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Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by Snakeherper5 » June 29th, 2011, 11:55 am

Hey yall. My girlfriend and I are headed out to the high desert tonight (yucca valley) to do some cruisin. I'm a little hesitant because there is currently a wind advisory till late tonight in the surrounding areas. :? I have never cruised in that area before (except through J Tree) :roll: and am just going to scope out google Earth for some general roads and hope I dont get lost lol.


If anything I'm sure it will be some pretty good habitat to see. I'm planing on getting there at around 7 an leavin round 10ish.

Anyone have any advice? Has anyone cruised these places before? I'm sure there are better places in that area but being unfamilliar I think i'll just stick to those.

Any help is greatly appreciated an of'course i'll post pics! Maybe PM me?

Thank you

-Joe

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by erik loza » June 29th, 2011, 12:14 pm

I have cruised all those places and seen stuff at each. I live in Texas now, so not sure how fast the temps are coming down after sunset in your area, right now, but will make a suggestion: Pick one spot, not three, and stick with it. If you know the spot is good, then hang around. I would personally get there before sunset and get out and walk the habitat as long as there is some light. Then, switch to road cruising. Also, the wind has never seemed to affect the herps. At least not boas for me. Good luck with it.

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by hellihooks » June 30th, 2011, 6:11 am

Eric's advice is all spot-on. We generally try not to list specific routes/locals to that extent... but yeah, sounds like a plan. :) jim

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by Snakeherper5 » June 30th, 2011, 12:08 pm

:? Sry didnt mean to throw that stuff out there. Thought maybe that stuff was just as common as WW :roll: Anyway, I didnt see a thing. Conditions were not the greatest.. Didnt get dark till after 9pm somehow and temps were at 70 degrees by 8pm. Did some hiking saw some side blotched and a quails nest with eggs in it which was pretty cool.

The habitat was amazing though and having never drivin through before I was really amazed at the geography and how quikly it changes!

Are mojavies in that area and/or WDB?

I plan on going back out there soon when conditions are better. i know there are some awesome animals lurking.

Thanks for the advice too eric!

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by Mike Waters » June 30th, 2011, 12:24 pm

hellihooks wrote:Eric's advice is all spot-on. We generally try not to list specific routes/locals to that extent... but yeah, sounds like a plan. :) jim
Coming from someone who mentions more locals then anyone :roll:
But the advise is good. Do as I say, not as I do

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by erik loza » June 30th, 2011, 12:46 pm

Snakeherper5 wrote:...temps were at 70 degrees by 8pm....!
That's boa weather, by the way. I have seen more boas on nights that were (by T-shirt standards...) cool and windy than warm and calm. Just my experience, of course.

If I were in Palm Springs and wanted to see things, I would pack a picnic supper and head to Big Morongo Canyon Preserve, late afternoon. Hike the trails, do some photography and birdwatching, see what you see around dusk, then head up to Pioneertown for some road hunting after dark. You can pull off the road and camp pretty much anywhere in there and I would likewise spend the night, then get up early and explore the rock piles. "Cooler" is better than "warmer" if it is boas you want to see. You're in a really good jumping-off point for lots of neat areas. One of the spots I miss most in CA. Best of luck to you.

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by Fundad » June 30th, 2011, 1:20 pm

The posting of locations is against Forum rules..

I am going to request this post be pulled..

Fundad

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by hellihooks » June 30th, 2011, 2:03 pm

Mike Waters wrote:
hellihooks wrote:Eric's advice is all spot-on. We generally try not to list specific routes/locals to that extent... but yeah, sounds like a plan. :) jim
Coming from someone who mentions more locals then anyone :roll:
But the advise is good. Do as I say, not as I do
I may name the nearest city or geographical feature, like Barstow area, or... say... Kern River, but not specific roads (much... :crazyeyes: )

Rather than pull the whole post (always devastating for a 1st time poster) perhaps JOE could edit out the specific roads and substitute 'Gorgonio Pass' area. Those who know those places know how to be successful there... other more novice herpers will probably fare about as well as Eric did... Not a slam, dude... take what you learned didn't work and add it to your knowledge base... you'll figure it out... :thumb: jim

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by erik loza » June 30th, 2011, 2:17 pm

Fundad wrote: I am going to request this post be pulled..

Fundad
I assume you are referring to my post. If that is the case, what is there to report? A nature preserve that I encouraged someone to go and do some wildlife sightseeing, not collecting or keeping, and which gives a list of reptiles directly on their homepage?....

http://www.bigmorongo.org/a32Wildlife.htm

...or a locality that you can buy captive-bred stock from, from your choice of dozens of private breeders, for dirt cheap? In this thread...

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6783&p=79616#p79616

...the OP shows habitat shots and openly discusses mountain ranges in the photos, which means pretty much anyone with Google Earth can figure out where they are, and you are congratulating him on it. Furthermore, I can find half a dozen active threads in the regular forum where locales are discussed, so not really seeing how the rule can be applied in in case and not in another. Not here to debate anyone and nothing personal but I'll call a spade a spade if it is.

Regards

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by erik loza » June 30th, 2011, 2:30 pm

hellihooks wrote: and substitute 'Gorgonio Pass' area....
Sure, I'll be happy to do that in the future. My personal opinion is that there is room for judgment in mentioning locations on the web. For example, I have been to that "Location P that has the ghost town" (LOL) probably a dozen times during the last 20 years and gotten skunked there the majority of them. As anyone who has been there knows, the place is vast, there's not a whole lot to actually flip in terms of rocks, assuming that's what folks are concerned about, and you can spend day in there and see nothing just as easily as not. So, from a biological perspective, there is no harm of naming it. On the other hand, there are some spots which I would never name on the web, because harm could be done by one person. Neither of the spots I mentioned or the locales mentioned by the OP falls into that category.

Answer this question honestly: How much of a crime against biology could someone commit, assuming they were obeying all applicable wildlife laws, if you told them "Road cruise Highway 1234"?

Knowing that, doesn't it seem silly to take an arbitrary position on mentioning it? Yes, GPS coordinates, certain rock piles, sensitive areas, 100% agreement on the policy. But those aren't getting mentioned here.

Again, not here to argue, just airing this out.

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by hellihooks » June 30th, 2011, 3:10 pm

My bad Eric... thought the OP's name was Eric as well. I meant for him (Joe) to edit out specific rds and use locality 'generalities'. I got no beef with anything you said, and agree that sometimes folks can get a little 'sensitive' when it comes to 'localities'. "How Specific" seems to be a very gray area.
Sounds like Brian posted that BEFORE someone threw a hot cup of coffee in his face this morning... :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol: jim

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by erik loza » June 30th, 2011, 3:32 pm

:beer:

It is a funny world we live in when a nature preserve invties you to view their native reptiles but herpers tell you not to mention it.

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by Mike Waters » June 30th, 2011, 3:55 pm

hellihooks wrote:
Mike Waters wrote:
hellihooks wrote:Eric's advice is all spot-on. We generally try not to list specific routes/locals to that extent... but yeah, sounds like a plan. :) jim
Coming from someone who mentions more locals then anyone :roll:
But the advise is good. Do as I say, not as I do
I may name the nearest city or geographical feature, like Barstow area, or... say... Kern River, but not specific roads (much... :crazyeyes: )

Rather than pull the whole post (always devastating for a 1st time poster) perhaps JOE could edit out the specific roads and substitute 'Gorgonio Pass' area. Those who know those places know how to be successful there... other more novice herpers will probably fare about as well as Eric did... Not a slam, dude... take what you learned didn't work and add it to your knowledge base... you'll figure it out... :thumb: jim
if i had time i would look up a post where a noob asked you to remove the name of a rd. I posted and you never responded. You dont get it.

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by Mike Waters » June 30th, 2011, 3:59 pm

erik loza wrote::beer:

It is a funny world we live in when a nature preserve invties you to view their native reptiles but herpers tell you not to mention it.
Your opinion of what is right and what is wrong is fantastic and we are all really glad you shared however the forum rules do not allow you to post localities. Thats just the bottom line. I believe we just went over this right, on the main forum?! some people just dont get it.

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by Mike Waters » June 30th, 2011, 4:06 pm

Fundad wrote:The posting of locations is against Forum rules..

I am going to request this post be pulled..

Fundad
i really need to see a penguin hit the ice

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by hellihooks » June 30th, 2011, 4:16 pm

yup... :roll: Big Morongo is an awesome place for a 'nature walk' and to take pics... birds, herps, mammals... you name it. Do not step off the wooden sidewalks though... they watch people pretty close and get pretty bent, if you do... even just to take a pic... believe me... I KNOW... :roll: Not like back in the 70's...that's for sure... :shock: :beer: jim

Mike... no... I don't get it. A newb asked ME to remove the name of a road YOU posted? I mentioned a 'grade' in a thread... someone got bent, so I removed it... course... by then he had told everyone how special it was to him, how great it was for herps, ect, and how he hoped no one would go there... :roll: :roll: :roll:
other than that, don't remember exactly what you mean...but if I did something to piss ya off... sorry. Never claimed to be perfect.
I'm a little free'er with locality on the rosy forum than on here... but I'm with the founder on that... the sooner certain localities can be commercially availible for less than it costs to go look for one yourself... the less people will go tear up rock piles looking for them... WHOLE different paradigm.... It is, in fact, a forum DEVOTED tp 'locality specificity'... MIGHT you be getting the two forums confused? :?: jim

edit... Also... this forum is a NAFHA forum... NOT the FHF. This forum is specifically for chapter business, planning outings. general education AND FIELD REPORTS regarding data collection. How the hell can you have a field report without saying (in general at least) where the field is... :roll: 'WHERE' is probably the most significant data collected... Me thinks it may be you who doth not 'get it'

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by erik loza » June 30th, 2011, 6:38 pm

Mike Waters wrote:...the forum rules do not allow you to post localities. Thats just the bottom line...
If that truly is the case, then about a third of the posts in the general forum have to be deleted. Yet, there they remain and everyone (myself included...) applauds and comments in them.

If that's the rule, then cool with it. However, arbitrary enforcement is not cool. How exactly do you define a "locality" and to which species do you apply it?

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by erik loza » June 30th, 2011, 7:01 pm

hellihooks wrote:...How the hell can you have a field report without saying (in general at least) where the field is...
That is the silly part of this all. Go onto "not allowed" or any number of captive breeders' sites. Will you see, "Secret Locale-X" Rosy Boa? Of course not.

Locality names (LOL, isn't there even some private rosy boa website dedicated to that?) are used to up the commercial value and sell boas, so it is pretty odd to pretend to like the extent of their existence is only "Southern California", or whatever.

How difficult is it for someone who sees "Whitewater", "Corn Springs", or any of the others to Google that and figure out where to look? So, it is pretty hypocritical to pretend to protect wild populations (I guess that is why you don't mention an area?...), while on the other hand, using that brand to sell baby snakes.

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by Fundad » June 30th, 2011, 7:15 pm

How the hell can you have a field report without saying (in general at least) where the field is... :roll: '

Easy, Just say Riverside county.. End of story..


Erik I am taking exception with the locals posted here for "personal" herping reasons..

The whole world is available online, so what? That is different than saying,, GO here... (ie its productive)

Everyone that reads these forums is not our friends..

Fundad

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by erik loza » June 30th, 2011, 7:28 pm

Fundad wrote:...That is different than saying,, GO here... (ie its productive)...
I agree, if we were talking about board lines or, for example, some areas where there are only a few rock piles. But that's not the case in this dicussion.

All you can do in the preserve I mentioned is walk the boardwalks and few meager trails. The stewards are always present, watching, and the "ghost town" locale, you could spend a month in there and see nothing unless you knew how to hunt. So, unless persons out there in cyberspace are just sitting by their computers, waiting on Field herp forum with dynamite or hydraulic drilling equipment, for someone to give them a name, none of the locality info so far discussed in this thread will impact any wild population, let alone necessarily make them a better herper.

This gets back to the whole point of it: Mentioning locality does not have a 1:1 translation to snakes disappearing. At least not during the 20+ years I have been herping.

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by Mike Waters » June 30th, 2011, 7:50 pm

hellihooks wrote:Eric's advice is all spot-on. We generally try not to list specific routes/locals to that extent... but yeah, sounds like a plan. :) jim
so as i read this i thought you agreed with me, now you say we need to discuss the local specifics to benifit nafha? kinda wishy washy if you ask me. Or do you dictate what is or is not too specific?

BTW no matter how many pairs of wild boas you collect to get into captive reproduction people will still hunt. Even if hard to gets are a nickel a piece i will still drive 4 hours to find one, as will many others. You can get WW for free from most people that breed them, yet so many people still cruise that road.

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by Mike Waters » June 30th, 2011, 7:55 pm

erik loza wrote:
Mike Waters wrote:...the forum rules do not allow you to post localities. Thats just the bottom line...
If that truly is the case, then about a third of the posts in the general forum have to be deleted. Yet, there they remain and everyone (myself included...) applauds and comments in them.

If that's the rule, then cool with it. However, arbitrary enforcement is not cool. How exactly do you define a "locality" and to which species do you apply it?
No locale SPECIFICS. Anyone who feels this is not being adhered to, please contact FHF for review. We may not always agree with you, so keep that in mind when lodging a complaint about a topic. SPECIFICS is the key word in our assessment of locality discussions.

so to answer your question if you post a locality and someone feels its too specific they contact our chapter moderators and if they agree they pull the post. Or if someone asks that you edit your post, you could do so out of respect. It really does suck when one of your favorite spots is exploited on the internet and the next thing you know you got people flipping every rock and not replacing it and collecting every animal they find. And i mean every animal!

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by erik loza » June 30th, 2011, 8:08 pm

You could not effectively flip enough rocks to do anything to the habitat/wildlife in either of the spots I mentioned or in the areas the OP mentioned (which included road-cruising, a zero-impact ativity...). If we were talking, for example, about zonata north of the Bay Area, it would be a whole different discussion but it is not and we are not.

Mike, have you ever herped the "ghost town" locale I mentioned? if not, it looks like this...

Image

Miles and miles of that. Nobody, and I mean nobody, has the will to "flip" or "collect everything" there. Like I said, I have been there at least a dozen times over almost as many years and never saw any trashed rocks. And it's a VERY well known locale. That's why I deeemed it comfortable to mention.

The "don't mention locality"-thing is silly. It automatically assumes that everyone reading the post (who, I guess, is everyone but you and your homies...) is both a motivated and unscrupulous collector. It would be understandable if I outed one of your private board lines or whatever but again, that is not the case here. So, the "this is the way it is" mentality is kind of ridiculous.

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by monklet » June 30th, 2011, 8:10 pm

One reason this is a perrenial hot debate is that there is a big gray area where sometimes it matters, and sometimes it doesn't. But, once the cat is out of the bag you can't put it back in. The old timers here have seen things evolve overtime and I will favor their experience, concerns and wisdom. You glean what you can if you study hard, or make a friend or two to gain their trust, and by and by you get a clue. The guys who've really been around have done tons of research to find productive locales and so truly understand the value.

If you want people to learn about and use a product you beat them over the head with advertising. The more ads, the more customers ...that's for real, so much so that advertising/marketing is often the largest portion of a companies budget!, and this applies in exact proportion to advertising localities at whatever level of specificity.

It becomes a matter of degree ...but that is a slippery slope. What is too much? When is a place degraded for its own value? Spoon-feeding the masses is a sure way to raise the tide of useage which in many cases will inundate resources with intensive hunting, and woefully even harvest!

I respect the hard workers who've put in the time, labor and miles ...and isn't that what it is about? Hey, if you want a boa, why not just go to a pet shop? ...cause it's more fun to find one on your own, that's why!

Never quite all that simple, but generally speaking, I will vote for respecting "the elders".

btw, regarding this forum rule, where are these rules stated? Maybe we need to review those pertinent to this conversation.

Brad

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by Mike Waters » June 30th, 2011, 8:23 pm

erik loza wrote:You could not effectively flip enough rocks to do anything to the habitat/wildlife in either of the spots I mentioned or in the areas the OP mentioned (which included road-cruising, a zero-impact ativity...). If we were talking, for example, about zonata north of the Bay Area, it would be a whole different discussion but it is not and we are not.

Mike, have you ever herped the "ghost town" locale I mentioned? if not, it looks like this...

Image

Miles and miles of that. Nobody, and I mean nobody, has the will to "flip" or "collect everything" there. Like I said, I have been there at least a dozen times over almost as many years and never saw any trashed rocks. And it's a VERY well known locale. That's why I deeemed it comfortable to mention.

The "don't mention locality"-thing is silly. It automatically assumes that everyone reading the post (who, I guess, is everyone but you and your homies...) is both a motivated and unscrupulous collector. It would be understandable if I outed one of your private board lines or whatever but again, that is not the case here. So, the "this is the way it is" mentality is kind of ridiculous.
one day you will know what rocks to flip, then that becomes a hole different picture. Nice image though.

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by Mike Waters » June 30th, 2011, 8:27 pm

monklet wrote:One reason this is a perrenial hot debate is that there is a big gray area where sometimes it matters, and sometimes it doesn't. But, once the cat is out of the bag you can't put it back in. The old timers here have seen things evolve overtime and I will favor their experience, concerns and wisdom. You glean what you can if you study hard, or make a friend or two to gain their trust, and by and by you get a clue. The guys who've really been around have done tons of research to find productive locales and so truly understand the value.

If you want people to learn about and use a product you beat them over the head with advertising. The more ads, the more customers ...that's for real, so much so that advertising/marketing is often the largest portion of a companies budget!, and this applies in exact proportion to advertising localities at whatever level of specificity.

It becomes a matter of degree ...but that is a slippery slope. What is too much? When is a place degraded for its own value? Spoon-feeding the masses is a sure way to raise the tide of useage which in many cases will inundate resources with intensive hunting, and woefully even harvest!

I respect the hard workers who've put in the time, labor and miles ...and isn't that what it is about? Hey, if you want a boa, why not just go to a pet shop? ...cause it's more fun to find one on your own, that's why!

Never quite all that simple, but generally speaking, I will vote for respecting "the elders".

btw, regarding this forum rule, where are these rules stated? Maybe we need to review those pertinent to this conversation.

Brad
i think i felt a tear roll down my cheek, it was so... poetic. :lol: But really good point Brad. Glad you got to see first hand what my big mouth alone can do to an area :(

so main forum terms of usage is where i got the local rule i posted above.

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by Fundad » June 30th, 2011, 8:49 pm

Mike, have you ever herped the "ghost town" locale I mentioned? if not, it looks like this...

Erik all of the habitat does NOT look like that... Why can't you just PM these people you want to help?

Seriously you need one of your favorite little places in earth, trashed and overcollected. Than maybe you'll see the light..

Fundad

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by erik loza » June 30th, 2011, 8:57 pm

Fundad wrote:...Seriously you need one of your favorite little places in earth, trashed and overcollected. Than maybe you'll see the light..
Fundad,

I left CA in 2004. A few years ago, traveling back to visit family with my wife, I told her all about my favorite Cal King spots. Well, we went for a drive and they were all gone. Not trashed by herpers but rather, paved over by a Costco, Starbucks, etc. So, yes, I have indeed lost quite a bit in that regard. More than many, I would say.

However, I have never been bitter or selfish. Maybe we have different perspectives in that regard.

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by Fundad » July 1st, 2011, 5:13 am

Not trashed by herpers but rather, paved over by a Costco, Starbucks, etc. So, yes, I have indeed lost quite a bit in that regard. More than many, I would say.
:roll:
Since 1977, its pretty safe to say that I have seen a ton of favorite king spots disappear to the bulldozer.

Do you think everyone that reads these forums is a respectful herper?

Fundad

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by hellihooks » July 1st, 2011, 6:02 am

I encourage all newer members who may have been rubbernecking this thread, to take this to heart. Many of us, myself included, HAVE had places near and dear to us trashed, and while (as Eric says) mentioning a rd or specific locale may seem harmless, occasionally it's not.
In the Database, typically locality is limited to to the county level, which, for most of the country is plenty.
But So Cal has some HUGE counties, so I, in order to give the novice a little more help, sometimes will list 'general areas' like Mt Ranges, or a nearby city (Barstow area, ect) that has literally miles and miles of equally good habitat.
But remember... some places, like smaller towns, (say...Hinkley) may have just one or two 'good areas' and are subject to degradation and abuse.
Case in point, in regard to rosys, I mentioned an area close to Victorville, and took a 'few' people there... now... it's literally the WW of the high desert... I've seen as many as 3 or 4 guys cruising that road at a time. And the rocks are getting flipped and not put back right..... :(

Problem is, we herpers are an excitable bunch, and when we get to talking herps, discretion tends to fly out the window, and even an idle mention of a productive area can quickly become common knowledge.

So PLEASE, try to keep your 'online references' vague, and if you need/want more specific info... PM someone. To tell the truth, getting a pm from someone is a good clue that they are on the 'up-and-up', for it's something that a 'collector/poacher' won't typically do. They just quietly glean what info they can from posts and go there themselves. And don't kid yourself... they AR E OUT THERE... :( Have fun out there and be safe AND Courteous! jim

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by erik loza » July 1st, 2011, 8:12 am

Fundad wrote:Since 1977, its pretty safe to say that I have seen a ton of favorite king spots disappear to the bulldozer.

Do you think everyone that reads these forums is a respectful herper?

Fundad
Does it make someone "right", that they have had more favorite spots trashed than the next guy? Not really seeing your logic.

May I take a moment to point out the double standard I'm talking about?

This is the Rosy Boa forum that yourself and some of the other guys who are involved in this thread, frequent...

http://www.localityrosys.com/index.php

Interestingly, both localities that I mentioned in the initial post are listed on this page...

http://www.localityrosys.com/localities.php

In fact, it even mentions which exact road and shows the rock piles! Now, if I were an unscrupulous collector and was lurking on the web, just waiting for someone to post up a locale, and Googled the phrase "Rosy Boa", that site, above, is the 6th hit down on the first page and the second hit is Wikipedia, which lists the first reference as that site. By comparison, you cannot find any reference in that Google search to this forum, or at least not in the five pages I clicked through. Point being that this forum is not the first place someone is going to look, if they want to poach a locality. In fact, this forum is kind of challenging to find in that regard.

So, here is my question: Is it not hypocritical to criticize the mention of two well-known but ambiguous localities on this forum, yet actively participate in another, much more focused forum, where said localities are elaborated upon, down the point of specif roads and intersections? Is there some guarantee that everyone reading that other forum is a respectful herper?

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Fundad
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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by Fundad » July 1st, 2011, 8:26 am

I give up Erik, its obvious you care more about being nice, than the herps themselves, especially since you moved away.

Fundad

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by Mike Waters » July 1st, 2011, 8:42 am

Eric, many localities are known and mentioned elsewhere however when someone says "just found 4 Boas and 7 specks on mitcheli rd in boaville CA" that is where people go. But again I will say, your opinion is really neat and some people may agree with you but it is against the forum rules. Why don't you understand that? I think that it is safe to drive 90 on desert highways with no traffic, the Chp that pulled me over agreed that it really wasn't unsafe but still gave me a ticket because its the law. Now if you can't understand that then I'm breaking out the crayons.

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by erik loza » July 1st, 2011, 8:46 am

Fundad, lease do not try to frame my position as "humans or reptiles". That's not the case. Nobody will be able to find a post where I have ever suggested suggested any illegal activities, exploitation of wildlife, or given locality data that was not already commonly available (and in much more specific detail, as in the website mentioned above...). I just happen to believe that there is room for judgment, rather than black-and-white, that's all. You can help someone out without spoon-feeding them, is what I am trying to say.

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by monklet » July 1st, 2011, 8:47 am

Erik, it's pretty simple physics, the more you advertise or offer information, the more pressure a places will get.

Some will take a little info, deduce the specifics and act, while many more will not without being told exactly where and when to go. What other individuals, sites and forums do is within their own control and is their's to answer for. All we are responsible for is our own actions.

Unfortunately, the rules here are rather specifically vague...
http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4978 wrote:No locale SPECIFICS. Anyone who feels this is not being adhered to, please contact FHF for review. We may not always agree with you, so keep that in mind when lodging a complaint about a topic. SPECIFICS is the key word in our assessment of locality discussions.
BUT, given the growing pressure on herp locations and resources I believe it is better to error on the safe side, there being no compelling reason to offer the world potentially sensitive information which might be abused by the few, or maybe not so few, who's actions lead to degradation.

Not to be cynical but, utilmately more and more locations will suffer impacts regardless of how mute we become. Maybe not just from take but from traffic and the attendant loss of adventure, which is an important aspect of herping for most I would hope. Nevertheless, we can slow the currently accelerted pace of popular interest by raising the bar of entry level.

The irony is that we are social and commraderie is a huge aspect of our "sport" and so we naturally tend to promote exactly that which at the same time negatively impacts that which we are promoting. To use an oblique but pertinent reality, look at what's happened to the historically beautiful Southern California coastline! ... fence to fence condos, mansions, hotels and restaurants. The coast highway is now a huge traffic jam, the skies are brown with smog, the surf breaks are so crowded you could walk out to the line-up on surfboards, the water is foaming with fecal bacteria and the beaches are covered with litter. ...truly a paradise lost for its own virute!

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by erik loza » July 1st, 2011, 8:49 am

Mike Waters wrote:....it is against the forum rules....
What is the definition of a "locality", as it pertains to this forum, then? Because there sure a ton of specific locations mentioned in the General Forum.

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by erik loza » July 1st, 2011, 9:59 am

monklet wrote:.....given the growing pressure on herp locations and resources I believe it is better to error on the safe side, there being no compelling reason to offer the world potentially sensitive information which might be abused by the few, or maybe not so few, who's actions lead to degradation...
Monklet,

100% agreement with many of the points you mentioned. It is indeed sad how much all of us who grew up in California have lost. I remember collecting and breeding some very unique Cal Kings from a locale near my home in Sacramento, mid-90's. Granite rock piles in the Sierra foothills, the area has been bulldozed and is now a neighborhood. I regret not hanging onto some of the babies I produced, because you'll never be able to see them again.

My argument, the one that is not getting through to the (LOL) gatekeepers here, is that there is room for judgment in releasing info about herp populations. Getting back to the examples I used, those are old locales that have been well-known for decades. There is no pressure, as you say, on any animals in those areas and those names are nothing new. It would be different if, for example, I said, "Look for the board line behind Mr. Smith's house on Main Street", or, "The rockpiles visible from mile marker 10 on Hwy 1234". Like all of us, I have those spots. And like all of us, they don't get discussed on the web. Yet, that level of specificity is not being mentioned and the issue, is generic locales that were mentioned are getting treated like nuclear launch codes, or something.

I think people should be encouraged to get out and go wildlife viewing/ herping and that you can give someone enough info to do that while still protecting ecologically sensitive areas. That is all I am trying to say.

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by Snakeherper5 » July 1st, 2011, 1:20 pm

Wow this thread has turned sour :( however educational. When Jim posted I shouldn't post those locations I immediatly edited my OP. I appologize for starting up such a whirlwind and had no intentions of breaking forum rules or giving out such localities.

Everyone on here has some good points and it is a debatable topic that could go on forever but lets not beat a dead horse shall we?

It is important we preserve both habitat and species and everyone here I know can agree. It may be difficult to discern what is general or specific but lets just use good judgement here an do our best eyy? :)

I must say my trip to the H.D. opened me up to some beautiful habitat and I appreciated it even with the lack of herps!

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by monklet » July 1st, 2011, 1:55 pm

Thanks Erik, I appreciate and respect your moderate POV and that every case should typically be judged on its own merit.

In the case of the locations mentioned in the OP (which have been removed), that gave me enough information to figure out where the best action might be and if desired, become one more of the growing number working that locale ...most of which would be on roads which concentrate herping pressure. Then I luck out and find something there, tell a couple friends and so on and so on...till it ultimately becomes another WW.

Case in point is another road in another area which is well on its way to WW-ness. ...and I'm just one more straw on the camel's back! :( These productive locales then become tantamount to amusement parks with people waiting in line for a ride. ...not my idea of a great adventure.

With the rise in herping interest fueled by adventure tv and internet forums the snowball may continue to grow exponentially. The adult revival of my own interest and involvment is a product of such, so I will not claim innocence but simply bear witness.

Peace to you and let's continue to use our best judgement.

Snakeherper5 - Thanks for removing the locale information from your post. Thanks also for ingniting once again a discussion of this very important topic. By and by such discussions, even if heated, help raise awareness and hopefully encourage us all toward reasonable, balanced and responsible actions as part of the herping community. I for one am always testing and modifying my opinions on these difficult issues ...but will still favor the safe, conservative approach as in this case, there is no going back once we've opened the box.

blah blah blah...geez, I'm sick of my banter. 'nuff for now :roll:

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by Kent VanSooy » July 1st, 2011, 3:30 pm

I'm not sick of it Brad - you've done a wonderful and eloquent job of summarizing why we sometimes need to hold our cards tightly. It's a slippery slope for sure (and we've probably all taken a tumble or two), but we can continue to learn and allow our viewpoints to evolve along with the modern technology that is decidely double-edged.

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by hellihooks » July 1st, 2011, 3:58 pm

The somewhat ironically humorous up-shot is that the OP reported finding no herps at said localities... :crazyeyes: So wouldn't that mean.. oh... never mind... :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol:
My 1st post EVER on this forum was WAY more Locality specific (to the HILLSIDE... :roll: ) and my 1st replies and PM's were from the then Ed Spec. explaining to me these VERY SAME things... :crazyeyes: Live...Learn, then teach others... ain't really yours till ya give it away...:D jim

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by Brian Hubbs » July 1st, 2011, 4:48 pm

In that photo I have found boas under rocks # 3, 5, 9, 12, and 46...

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by RobertH » July 1st, 2011, 7:38 pm

I've said it before, but I'll say it again: we need more specific rules regarding the posting of localities, and we need to visibly post them on this forum. Then, if a new poster is in violation of the rules, we can simply refer him/her to the rules, ask him/her to remove the locality, and we're done. Otherwise, we will continue to have this discussion everytime an unsuspecting new poster posts localities or asks for them.

If you want to me to write the rules up, I gladly will -- that is, after someone has told me what they are. For as it stands, I, for one, cannot tell what is a specific locality and what isn't. Personally, I never mention anything more than counties, mountain ranges or deserts. But then I see other people talk about specific roads, ridges, valleys, or other specifics, and often without any negative repercussions (depending on who the poster is, I guess, and what the general forum mood that day is).

So, I would appeal to those of you who can make this decision to make it and make it soon. It would avoid a lot of needless negativity in the future. The fact that the general FHF forum doesn't have specific rules about locality posting doesn't mean that the CA forum can't or shouldn't.

Robert

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Re: Goin' out to the high desert tonight..suggestions?

Post by hellihooks » July 2nd, 2011, 7:24 am

I think we can all agree that Kent's recent 'Summer Solstice' post was one of the best ever... and he managed it without naming a single locality.... :shock: The more experienced amongst us can generally ascertain the general areas that the herps came from, and the less experienced, if consumed with curiosity, can inquire, either openly or by pm.

I think that in the case of range extensions and the like, some more specific locality info is warranted, like Fieldnote's asking what the furthest south (towards the transverse ranges) I had seen shovelnoses at, and my specific reply. Also... (IMO) places where No Collecting is ever allowed (JT, BS, ect) should be mentionable.

But for 'pretty pics' of cool herps... we should follow the standard set by our 'Prez-i-Kent'... :D jim

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