SoCal endangered species herping, part 6

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Sam Sweet
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SoCal endangered species herping, part 6

Post by Sam Sweet »

I guess I can’t count real high, since there were two parts 4 and no part 5 previously, and I’m told that that makes this one part 6. The previous post (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5432) dealt with poorly-known species of Batrachoseps in the coastal hotspot in the southern Santa Lucia Range, and here I’ll make a start on the inland hotspot, the Kern Canyon-Piutes region at the southern terminus of the Sierra Nevada. One of my current PhD students, Chris Evelyn, is working on the ecology of slender salamanders in the area and I am able to tag along occasionally. This post comes from a recent trip to try to push the known range limits of Batrachoseps stebbinsi to the north and east, made possible by the cooperation of some large landowners.

Batrachoseps stebbinsi was described in 1968 by Arden Brame and Keith Murray, in a paper that strongly challenged the status quo by showing that not only was there more than a single species in California, but there were many places where two obviously different morphologies occurred sympatrically. It is actually a tad ironic that this species is named for Bob Stebbins. In May of 1957 Ted Papenfuss found a really big adult and proudly brought it in, only to have Stebbins dismiss it as “that darn Batrachoseps attenuatus sure is variable”, following the taxonomic position adopted by his student Hendrickson four years previously. To bring the history full circle, here is Chris at the exact same fence post that yielded the first B. stebbinsi, 54 years to the day later. So far we have been able to find Ensatina, but no Batrachoseps, at this original site.

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Batrachoseps stebbinsi occurs across the Tehachapi Mountains, from Fort Tejon in the SW into the Caliente Creek drainage adjoining the Piutes in the NE, but both range boundaries are probably underestimated. This is hard country that hits extremes both in winter and summer, and a number of people have had a tough time finding the animal. But for a few highway rights of way virtually all of its known range is on large private ranches whose owners have been wary of people interested in “rare salamanders”. Whether B. stebbinsi is in fact rare or very patchy remains unclear, in part because the window of conditions when they are near the surface may be very brief, and may not overlap much with times when remote areas are accessible by even gung-ho people. It has been listed as a special concern species by the state, and the feds are reviewing a petition to list it as threatened (chiefly because of development concerns at Tejon Ranch). In fact, it is really poorly known, but a lot more widespread than several other species of Batrachoseps that no agency seems to care about.

The classic B. stebbinsi site is some form of the wettest, shadiest microhabitat you can find, typically with talus well-mixed with leaf litter and soil. This can be a local patch of buckeyes and interior live oak on a seepy slope:

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Or it can be a more extensive riparian corridor supporting several dozen acres of damp slopes covered with logs, rocks and deep leaf litter, for example:

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Or it can be an isolated wet spot high up on a north slope, where snowmelt is the primary source of moisture in deep talus:

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All of these places will yield Batrachoseps stebbinsi at the right time of year. A few adults (all found by Chris Evelyn):

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However, the salamanders do not always listen to us experts all that well, and may turn up in country where it’s just not that wet for that long. We recently got a bit of a range extension by ignoring the standard wisdom and looking in considerably different habitat.

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It turns out that what you might want to do here is look at dead yuccas, whose decomposing leafbases hold water from snowmelt for quite a long time:

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This clump here had over 20 B. stebbinsi in it:

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If there is a moral to this story, it might be to get out of the car and have a look more often. There are an awful lot of N-facing hillsides between Lockwood Valley and Walker Basin with similar vegetation, soils and bedrock, and it would probably be a stretch to claim that we stumbled onto the only one that was covered with B. stebbinsi. More generally, it is important to avoid having assumptions about habitat use become confirmed dogma because nobody bothered to look anywhere else.

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Carl Brune
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Re: SoCal endangered species herping, part 6

Post by Carl Brune »

Very interesting post. In addition to the habitat requirements of the animal, actually finding them brings into play the habitat requirements of the herper: e.g. accessible habitat and appropriate "flippable" cover so that you have a decent chance to find the animal. The latter may in turn depend on geology and botanical considerations. Good luck with your studies.
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Re: SoCal endangered species herping, part 6

Post by jonathan »

Awesome! I've been meaning to email you to ask questions about how this was going for months. It was really cool to see the post, and especially the new habitat. Couple quick questions - you say that clump held 20 or so, so how many did you find on that hillside? And how big of a range extension was it?

I'm really looking forward to you hitting up some more of the inland salis, if that's what you're intending to do.
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Re: SoCal endangered species herping, part 6

Post by todd battey »

Sam, another awesomely informative post. Your've got a great narrative style for laying out your extensive knowledge of herp species in southern California and beyond. That's quite a revelation that stebbinsi are in yucca clumbs in the relatively arid areas you showed. Like you pointed out, there is a large area of the habitat, and I spend a lot of time in some of that habitat. Some where you guys probably found that population of stebbinsi.

I think it is worth noting that sampling yucca piles for a species like this should be conducted by the likes of you, Chris, and others that have a valid scientific need. If recreational herpers were to employ that sampling approach, the microhabitat could be torn up and dried out, and no longer provide the moisture that this elusive species requires. The last thing most herpers want is to destroy the habitat required to harbor the animals we seek. Right, everbody?

Back to Sam, your shots show how thick-limbed and large-footed stebbinsi are....for a Batrachoseps salamander. Also the short tail and broad head and body. That's a pretty hefty slender salamander! I love the assortment of shots on very natural backgrounds. The lineup of 3 reminds of a Stebbins plate.

Nice post all around. I think I speak for a lot of people when I say "please keep these SoCal Endangered Species Herping posts coming." I'll look forward to getting back out in the field with you one of the days, perhaps at the Ranch.

Todd
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Re: SoCal endangered species herping, part 6

Post by Don Cascabel »

More generally, it is important to avoid having assumptions about habitat use become confirmed dogma because nobody bothered to look anywhere else.
This is a really wise statement that noone seems to follow. Honestly, sometimes it is better to use your own common sense to find a species, thinking, if I were a ....... where would I be? Rather than basing your search model on previous anecdotes or experiences. That being said, to this day I have to battle against my own pre-conceived notions of habitat preference.

Cool post on the salamanders.... here in México, especially in the northeast, Agaves are the PRIME salamander habitat for several species.... often proving to be much more productive than logs or caves. (e.g. Pseudoeurycea galeanae).

Cheers,

Chris
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jonathan
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Re: SoCal endangered species herping, part 6

Post by jonathan »

I agree on the wisdom. Sometimes ignorance is bliss to a small degree - if you look everywhere, you might find something where no one else expects it to be. Then again, you might waste a lot of time. :lol:

I discovered a quite successful invasive species here in Bangkok that had never been recorded in southeast Asia before, precisely because I was examining every little bit of habitat possible. I think it's very likely that 5 of the 6 locales I found them in would never have been searched by another herper, and the 6th locale was quite sub-par looking itself.
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Re: SoCal endangered species herping, part 6

Post by indoaustralia »

Excellent photography and amazing narrative, as always Sam. Thanks for posting!
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Sam Sweet
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Re: SoCal endangered species herping, part 6

Post by Sam Sweet »

I appreciate Todd's comment about yucca clumps, but also expect that most people are mature enough to put them back. They are renewable cover, and are only turnable as units for maybe a couple of years in their decay cycle.
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Re: SoCal endangered species herping, part 6

Post by hellihooks »

The seep habitats you describe seem very similar to what we were searching this past weekend for Robustus. I did in fact get to see one, but took no pics, as it was not my find. But it was very cool to learn how and where to look for them... :thumb: jim
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Re: SoCal endangered species herping, part 6

Post by crocdoc »

excellent post!
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Re: SoCal endangered species herping, part 6

Post by Fieldnotes »

As you might notice due to my delayed response to this post, I have been watching and pondering about this discovery for a long time. Very interesting indeed. :thumb: :thumb:
By conducting a follow-up search about this post and searching “Sam Sweet” Ii happened upon another interesting article. I'll attach the link below... any thoughts about B. pacificus being found on the mainland of California; because I’ll be pondering about that discover too for a while…

http://www.ccber.ucsb.edu/newsletter/CC ... ory_1.html
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Fundad
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Re: SoCal endangered species herping, part 6

Post by Fundad »

First off, I love getting a little education from the man himself.. Thank You Sam :thumb: :mrgreen:

The picture of where the first one was found is "priceless".. So Awesome..

Finding them under the Yucca is interesting to say the least, and searching for them with
some out of the box thinking, shows some field skills by the two of you.. .. Here it is 2011
and new discoveries and methods (Mysteries) are still being discovered..

This is exactly why I rarely listen to someone, when they say you have to find something a certain way.
It took a long time for me to figure out that my experience often blinds me.

As always Sam, I appreciated you taking the time to post for us..

Here is couple I found on the NAFHA ranch survey(I am pretty sure Chris knows about these)

We were actually their to look for Rubber Boas, but to me it look more like salamander habitat..
While everyone was standing about talking and prepping, I couldn't resist turning a few logs. ..

Poor photos,
First log had this one, of course, Being mander stupid, so I called out "mander" thinking it was a attenuatus. :lol:
Of course it didn't take long for someone to correct my Id.. :oops:
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A little while later this one was found, and is a Elevation record (I have been told anyway)
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The Record can be viewed here http://www.naherp.com/viewrecord.php?r_id=77703

Here is the habitat
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Thanks Again Sam and keep them coming.. 8-)
Fundad
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Sam Sweet
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Re: SoCal endangered species herping, part 6

Post by Sam Sweet »

I posted a photo of another individual of the Vandenberg AFB animal a while ago. Here's a third, more recent photo, alongside a B. nigriventris from a nearby site:

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The short story is that Elizabeth Jockusch at the University of Connecticut has done the genetic comparisons, and the Vandenburg animal is not an introduced population of B. pacificus. Instead it is an undescribed species in the B. pacificus group. We have been doing a lot of field work on it as conditions permit (it occurs on a very high-security section of the base), mostly trying to expand the (tiny) known range. We will formally describe it once we feel that another field search or a bit of random good luck isn't going to add ten miles to the distribution.

One lesson from this, which I've mentioned before in other contexts, is that you should not let preconceptions about habitat restrictions keep you from looking for things. Before this I didn't feel that digging in sand dunes was a useful way to look for Batrachoseps.
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Re: SoCal endangered species herping, part 6

Post by Tim Borski »

The picture of where the first one was found is "priceless".. So Awesome..
My thoughts exactly!

Wow Sam!! What an extraordinarily educational and entertaining post. Loved the narrative, habitat shots, history behind the animal as well as the sals themselves. Absolutely, 100% top shelf!
Thank you Sir,

Tim
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Re: SoCal endangered species herping, part 6

Post by Fieldnotes »

Amazing Sam, I can see the future name of that VAFB creature now --- Batrachoseps goliath
Below is an abnormally large slender salamander from Ventura County that I found. It was found in a region that experiences the classic Mediterranean climate. I currently have it labeled as Batrachoseps nigriventris based on range.
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I have found other huge “B. nigriventris,” but dismissed them as being super large because they existed about eternal spring seeps, which allow them to gain substance for longer periods of the year. I have those labeled as Batrachoseps nigriventris too. Below picture from 7400 ft. in Kern County (very old (bad) picture of a small individual :( )
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Fundad,
To me, your specimens labeled B. stebbinsi appear as a “Transverse Mtn – Batrachoseps nigriventris” it is a bit stockier with, seemingly, shorter tail than “lower” elevation Batrachoseps nigriventris. Perhaps it will be labeled a new taxon in the future. But as of now they are being labeled Batrachoseps nigriventris.
Image
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Re: SoCal endangered species herping, part 6

Post by Fundad »

Fundad,
To me, your specimens labeled B. stebbinsi appear as a “Transverse Mtn – Batrachoseps nigriventris” it is a bit stockier with, seemingly, shorter tail than “lower” elevation Batrachoseps nigriventrisnigriventris. Perhaps it will be labeled a new taxon in the future. But as of now they are being labeled Batrachoseps nigriventris.
Mike White, Todd Battey, and Mike Waters ID them, Not me, as I my original ID was nigriventris Actually (again I am mander stupid still)

There were 6 found that day... Maybe Todd can post better pictures and chime in here, as photos were given to Chris, and I didn't hear back from Mike or Todd that a mistake was made in Id'ing them..

I don't know, only following what I was told..

Fundad
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Re: SoCal endangered species herping, part 6

Post by condyle »

BITCHIN post!!!
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Re: SoCal endangered species herping, part 6

Post by Mike Waters »

Fundad wrote:
Fundad,
To me, your specimens labeled B. stebbinsi appear as a “Transverse Mtn – Batrachoseps nigriventris” it is a bit stockier with, seemingly, shorter tail than “lower” elevation Batrachoseps nigriventrisnigriventris. Perhaps it will be labeled a new taxon in the future. But as of now they are being labeled Batrachoseps nigriventris.
Mike White, Todd Battey, and Mike Waters ID them, Not me, as I my original ID was nigriventris Actually (again I am mander stupid still)

There were 6 found that day... Maybe Todd can post better pictures and chime in here, as photos were given to Chris, and I didn't hear back from Mike or Todd that a mistake was made in Id'ing them..

I don't know, only following what I was told..

Fundad
I sent my images to Bob Hanson as well as a kmz and he is calling them stebbensi based on appearance and location.
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Re: SoCal endangered species herping, part 6

Post by Mike Waters »

nice post Sam, here is a shot of one of the stebbensi found on the nafha trip.
Image
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Re: SoCal endangered species herping, part 6

Post by Fieldnotes »

Got any pictures like Fundad's where you can see the feet?

Based on location!
If my assumption is correct, you got them atop Mt. Pinos at around 7,000 ft. Thats not within the range limits nor elevation. Slender salamanders can be tough to tell apart, but then that is the fun of it... :beer:


:D
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Sam Sweet
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Re: SoCal endangered species herping, part 6

Post by Sam Sweet »

People might be mixing up what-n-where here. At least two of the recent Tejon trip animals were B. stebbinsi. Kern is a big county and you can get 7400' either in the Pinos bloc or in the Piutes over to the east. I'm aware of one site on Mt Pinos that produces animals that are sequenced as B. nigriventris, which also ranges across the Tehachapis to the W edge of Cummings Valley, but no farther (as far as is currently known).
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Re: SoCal endangered species herping, part 6

Post by Fundad »

Sir Fieldnotes :D ,

The manders were found on the Tejon Ranch. (Southern Tehachapis)

You should come on one of our survey trips with us, its fun and we can use your help.. :thumb:

I am leaving the Id's of these manders to the 3 experts, Sam Sweet, Bob Hansen, and Chris Evelyn. Those 3 have 1,000 times more knowledge than I do of the region and manders of that area.

I think 6 manders found were at this location, all within a mile or so of each other. There were 7 or 8 people on the survey.
3 were found by Mike Waters
2 were found by me
and 1 my Mike White.

I do believe (I should check with Todd Battey to make sure) that pictures of all six were sent to Chris Evelyn (Sam's PH'd student). Along with some of the pictures sent to Bob Hansen. Todd Battey and Mike Waters were the best photographers in the group and between them two, I believe there are photos of all six.

Sam Sweet just noted that atleast 2 of them were B. stebbinsi. Maybe he can come to my ID rescue here? :lol:

An item of note, is that the habitat was White Fir on a very steep NE facing slope (Hand over fist type steep in places :shock: ), with many small rockslides. Much of that habitat looked like it was in the shade of the mountain much of the year.

Now Back to Sam's post, which I seemed to have hijacked, unintentionally.

Sorry about that. :oops:
Fundad
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Re: SoCal endangered species herping, part 6

Post by Fieldnotes »

well, okay :D But the specimen Mike posted is different than the one FunDad has.

looks to me as Fundad's=nigriventris
Mike's=stebbinsi

Thanks for the invite to Tejon Ranch FD, perhaps i will tag along on a furture trip. I've always enjoyed that area.
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Re: SoCal endangered species herping, part 6

Post by Mike Waters »

Image
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What about these two. Ill post another of the big guy when I get home.
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Sam Sweet
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Re: SoCal endangered species herping, part 6

Post by Sam Sweet »

The last two photos Mike posted are subadult B. stebbinsi. Foot size (including the degree of distinctness of the toes) is your best clue here, but head shape, tail length (on the short side) and coloration (like a matte finish dorsally) are contributors. It's easy if you have them side by side with nigriventris from the same area, but both species vary quite a bit in appearance across their ranges.
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Re: SoCal endangered species herping, part 6

Post by Fieldnotes »

Yeah those are interesting stebbinsi, yes post the big one I'd like to see that one too. What elevation did you say you guys found those at? And What type of vegetation community again..conifers?

Here are pictures of salamanders found side-by-side, the to look nothing when you see them in the wild. Stebbinsi (top) has those obvious, large feet and bulbous eyes, and little to no dorsal stripe. Nigriventris (bottom).Image
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Fundad, I can see why you would think the post got high-jacked. However considering that it was months old, its probably kind'a nice that the post was found again and more stebbinsi were discussed.


BTW, nice pictures Mike.

:beer:
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Re: SoCal endangered species herping, part 6

Post by Fundad »

Will, I am not going to pretend I know how to ID them, I ll leave that to the experts...

I will point out however, that the two manders I have pictured have much larger legs and feet than the Nigriventris you have posted, and that I have seen.. Not to mention a much stockier body type.

You asked what elevation, obviously you didn't look at the link I posted earlier.. :lol:
http://www.naherp.com/viewrecord.php?r_id=77703

5200 to 5908 or something like that..

Fundad
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Re: SoCal endangered species herping, part 6

Post by Fieldnotes »

Yea, i missed your link earlier. Being that your discovery is the highest record is there a way, say using Google Earth, to get the precise record for the "Guinnes book "?

You have it at 5908 ft. on the NAFHA forum, so that sounds pretty percise to me.
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Re: SoCal endangered species herping, part 6

Post by Fundad »

Yea, i missed your link earlier. Being that your discovery is the highest record is there a way, say using Google Earth, to get the precise record for the "Guinnes book "?
:lol: :lol:



Fundad
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Re: SoCal endangered species herping, part 6

Post by Richard F. Hoyer »

" More generally, it is important to avoid having assumptions about habitat use become confirmed dogma because nobody bothered to look anywhere else."


Your above statement Sam, likely applies to a large spectrum of herps with the Rubber Boa being one. Recently, in reviewing a document involving the Rubber Boa, the statement was made that the Rubber Boa's occurrence is "sparse" in Great Basin type habitat.

I once held the same view but over time have learned otherwise. The Rubber Boa occurs over a wide swath of Great Basin type grassland / sagebrush / scrub type habitat (some containing cactus) at mid to upper elevations east of the Sierras in Calif. north to northeastern. Calif., into central and eastern Oregon and Washington, much of Idaho, and parts of Montana, Wyoming, Utah, and Nevada. As an example, William (Fieldnotes) once came across a boa on a gravel road east of Hwy. 395 and Lake Crowley in such habitat.

Your series of recent posts are informative and very much appreciated.

Richard F. Hoyer (Corvallis, Oregon)
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Re: SoCal endangered species herping, part 6

Post by Richard F. Hoyer »

William:
After the first slender salamander was found and identified by Mike White, not long afterwards I left for Oregon as I had come down with a bad chest cold. But one observation I made that was counter to my expectations is that in that region of the Tejon Ranch, there was only White Fir and no Jeffrey Pine. That was totally different from what occurs both on Mt. Pinos and in the main Tehachapi Mts. where I conducted one of my studies of the Rubber Boa.

Richard F. Hoyer
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