Collectors/collecting...

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Tim Borski
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Collectors/collecting...

Post by Tim Borski »

I have a WC Scarlet King and Southern Pine at home. The SK involved over 4000 miles on my truck, not to mention all the hours afield looking for the "right one." My 9 year old (at the time) got it in his head that we "needed" a pretty Scarlet King around the house. The stipulations were it had to be perfectly "clean" and had to be an adult with yellow bands. We turned up (and rejected) 9 before lucking into the perfect one a LONG ways from home in the middle of a late summer night. The Pine, on the other hand, "fell into my lap" while randomly road cruising one eve and I had to have it, if only for better pics in the morning. I ended up bringing it home.

I probably see hundreds of exceptionally pretty snakes per year and occasionally bring one home for more controlled photos and/or show and tell. We have a "two week rule" at the house, which is to say, the animal will be released PRECISELY where encountered within two weeks of the time it was found. (Most are released within a couple or three days.) If we know we won't be visiting the site again within that time frame, it stays where it is, and my boys know this. There are no exceptions to this rule.

So, I AM A COLLECTOR. There, I said it. I know a bunch of you will frown upon this, but it is what it is.

Anybody else have an opinion/definition of what constitutes collecting and what doesn't?

For whatever it's worth, here's my animals. (My boys named them)

Don King:

Image

Pete. (Pinewoods Pete)

Image

Tim
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kyle loucks
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by kyle loucks »

I used to do similar, but have only been taking pictures for the last 7 years or so. I dont have time to care for the animals like I used to so I do not collect.
If its legal and resposible as you have described then it's your preference.
Not in favor of commercial collection.

Sounds like you have the right mindset.
bobassetto
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by bobassetto »

FROWN..............WHAT????......NO RED RATZ????........WHATS UP WITH THAT???????..YO??? .....I DON'T CARE WHAT THESE UDDER GUYZ STINK.........TBORSKI......YOU'RE ALLRITE IN OURZ BUUCH........ :beer: ........ :lol: :lol: :lol: ......see youse this june......income tax dental work and jim's foot/shouder surgery etc .....and dawg sitting a 125 lb american bulldawg while my stepdaughter does cancoon .... :x :x :x :evil: ......forced us to cancel our april run......see youse in june..... :beer: ....OWN YOUSE A MEAL AT THE CRACKED EGG :D
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Tim Borski
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by Tim Borski »

bobassetto wrote:FROWN..............WHAT????......NO RED RATZ????........WHATS UP WITH THAT???????..YO??? .....I DON'T CARE WHAT THESE UDDER GUYZ STINK.........TBORSKI......YOU'RE ALLRITE IN OURZ BUUCH........ :beer: ........ :lol: :lol: :lol: ......see youse this june......income tax dental work and jim's foot/shouder surgery etc .....and dawg sitting a 125 lb american bulldawg while my stepdaughter does cancoon .... :x :x :x :evil: ......forced us to cancel our april run......see youse in june..... :beer: ....OWN YOUSE A MEAL AT THE CRACKED EGG :D

^
Bob, huh? :lol: What does all that mean?!


Thanks Kyle, nice to know I'm (probably) not going to hell.

Tim
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Mattlesnake King
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by Mattlesnake King »

More pictures of Pete please.
Lloyd Heilbrunn
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by Lloyd Heilbrunn »

As long as the collecting is legal, I have never had a problem doing it, and none with anyone else.
Ecto Hunter
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by Ecto Hunter »

Thats the most "perfect" SK I've ever seen!
I have mixed emotions when it comes to collecting. If its a locally abundant species,
I don't usually have a problem with collecting, especially if its for educational purposes.
I do, however, have a problem with collecting for profit.

guys like this come to mind...
http://www.johnkoerner.org/ExoticOddities/
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umop apisdn
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by umop apisdn »

So "Pete" wasn't named after a certain bird guy?

Tim, I know that I got my start herping when I was young, bringing home painted turtles and abiding by my parents' "summer" rule (released once school started back).

I'm personally against relentless collection, large-scale commercial collection, and obviously illegal collection. But as I've mentioned on these forums before, what chaps my ass the most is the people who get work with conservation efforts who show up to the herp shows with tons of native fauna on their tables.

Little Johnny (or Joseph) should be able to feed his young mind with the animals he loves, and I'd never hold those captures against you. Those animals arrived to a caring, well-equipped home. It wasn't just another corn to add to the harem. Just make sure your boy continues to keep up with his end of the bargain, which I'm sure he will. After talking with him, his love for SKs was readily apparent. I think you've helped fuel a lifelong passion for wild animals, not a thirst for the next big thing. Best wishes to all of you.
ElliotH
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by ElliotH »

Pretty much like everyone else has said here. If it's legal, not on a huge scale, and an abundant species I don't really see a problem with it. I recently collected two ambystoma larvae to ID them and then ended up having to keep them due to possible contamination. Ended up being marbleds which I'm ok with, but they sure have become boring since leaving the water. I certainly did have that "oh my god want to keep" feeling with that mole king I recently found, but I decided I couldn't do it in good conscience and am hoping to run across it's offspring at later visits now. It felt good to be able to have the willpower there haha.
BradB
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by BradB »

Like Matt said, do you have more pics of that pine? Was that the one you all cruised last Fall, I think?
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Tim Borski
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by Tim Borski »

Thats the most "perfect" SK I've ever seen!
Ecto, yes, we thought it was pretty special too. We were also happy to find that nearly all the animals from this population were similar in respect to being so clean. Good genes in that crowd. :thumb:
As long as the collecting is legal, I have never had a problem doing it, and none with anyone else.
Lloyd, I'm on your side, man. :mrgreen:
Little Johnny (or Joseph) should be able to feed his young mind with the animals he loves, and I'd never hold those captures against you. Those animals arrived to a caring, well-equipped home. It wasn't just another corn to add to the harem. Just make sure your boy continues to keep up with his end of the bargain, which I'm sure he will. After talking with him, his love for SKs was readily apparent. I think you've helped fuel a lifelong passion for wild animals, not a thirst for the next big thing.


My thoughts exactly. Josef really enjoyed the walk/talk you two had last winter and asked awhile ago, when you're all coming back. Dec?

Yes, Pete THINKS it's named after him. :lol:
More pictures of Pete please.
Matt, Brad, here's a few more of Pete.

10/14/2010 as found 1. (22")

Image

As found 2.

Image

Next morning 1.

Image

Next morning 2.

Image

2 weeks ago. 33.75"

Image

I would of taken some pics today but she shed last night and is a bit testy.

Tim

PS: Elliott, how'd they become contaminated?

PSS: Oops. Brad, yes it's the same animal that me and some guy from CO happened upon.
ElliotH
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by ElliotH »

A buddy of mine brought one of those critter keeper things along for pictures in the water. I put about 4 of them in there to grow them up a bit to ID. Only later did I realize that he has quite a few exotic amphibians and a few had been housed in the same container as the larvae. I don't know for sure if they have anything, but I would much rather be safe than sorry. Plus my girlfriend thinks marbleds are the cutest things ever, so I guess it works in my favor a bit haha. I feel a little bad about them, but they are the "trash" ambystoma here and the spot they were at has a nice population. Now if it were NY I'd feel bad, be breaking the law and be pissing off quite a few people. ;)


Beautiful SK and Pine btw. I really need to make a trip to FL and poke around. It's almost the same distance to where I'd stand a good chance of seeing them in NC..... almost. :D
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Tim Borski
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by Tim Borski »

Elliot, thanks for the explanation.
Tell your girl, I think Marbleds are the cutest things going too. :mrgreen:
Come visit; I'll keep ya busy for a few days...
Tim
ElliotH
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Post by ElliotH »

Might just take you up on that offer. She has relatives there and we have a friend we were thinking of visiting. Now just to get the time off and money haha.
bobassetto
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by bobassetto »

TBORSKI......i was hoping you could tell me what all that means........ :lol: :lol: :lol: :sleep: :sleep:
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Don
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by Don »

I have 5 WC cornsnakes and a WC chicken snake, 2 WC Guyana boas, and a WC Apalachicola king snake. Also a CB suboc and a CB corn and a CB Peruvian boa. 2 WC box turtle and a bunch of their progeny. And a CB yellowfoot tortoise. Sue me. When I got started in this hobby, there were no CB animals available. I'm trying to breed corns and boas, and the box turtle pair is prolific to say the least. 99.9% of the stuff I see in the field stays in the field.
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by Lloyd Heilbrunn »

[quote="Tim Borski2 weeks ago. 33.75"

Image

[/quote]


Judging from this pic you need to change "Pete's" name to Patricia!!
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Tim Borski
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Post by Tim Borski »

Lloyd, I know, but the name has stuck. (Don is actually a "Donna" too.)
Tim
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Jason B
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by Jason B »

I've watched this thread for a while and noone has disapproved of your decisions to hold these animals. I usually observe the various antics of people on this forum without judging their actions but you seem to legitimately be asking for opinions.

I think you should have released the snakes.

Keeping a wild caught animal for a couple weeks for better photos, to study their habits or amuse the kids is fine, in my opinion. Raising a WC hatchling up to a year or so is OK in my book. Barring no chance of disease, those animals should be released at the exact point of capture (like you usually do). In this case you have two female specimens of two species which are far from cosmopolitan. mugitus are of enough concern to have their own legislature prohibiting excessive collection (possession = 1 in FL). Those female snakes can no longer contribute offspring to the next generation in their respective populations. Are your actions going to cause the extinction of the species? No. Are your actions contributing to the reduction of a population? Yes. Are you making it harder for others, including your grandchildren, to observe those species in the wild? Probably.

Several people have commented that as long as personal collection is on a small scale it's ok. How can we judge what scale personal collection is at? This post has been viewed nearly 150 times. How many of those people collect 'on a small scale'? How much of the general populace collects and isn't even represented on this forum?

There's many factors contributing to the demise of native wildlife in our country - (development, invasives, commercial collection etc.). Many people use these factors as justification to collect a reptile they like. Many people in general have a f-it attitude: 'the river is nasty because of that factory upstream, it won't hurt to dump my used motor oil in it' or 'someone else would have collected this red rat snake if I didn't'. The pervasiveness of this attitude destroys nature.

I don't think you have that attitude Tim. Perhaps these specimens are trophies for all your field herping efforts? I'm unaware of a company that makes fiberglass replica mounts for snakes (all though there's an idea...). You can, however, get something almost as good as a replica - a live, captive bred animal. I'm sure both of these species are available through the pet trade at a fraction of the cost of what you spend on gas to go herping. What's the costs to native populations through small scale collection, repeated by half the people that read this post?
bobassetto
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by bobassetto »

there are models of snakes out there for sale......check your state laws....replicas may also be protected......TO AVOID LE CONFUSION.... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Tim Borski
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by Tim Borski »

Jason, valid points, all. Your reply is more along the lines of what I was expecting when I put this up.
Thanks for the input and have a great season,
Tim
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muskiemagnet
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by muskiemagnet »

i'm hoping this doesn't change the plans of getting together, but i agree with jason. his points are valid. if legal, i have no objections however. i think herps are having a hard enough time. the hard part is where should the line be drawn, and this is why i have chosen not to collect at all. i think the SK is fine. populations are strong, and one, in my opinion, will not hurt. others may feel the opposite though. the pine on the other hand, my opinion, is "needed" in the wild.

the population study i will be doing is at a place where i used to collect as a kid. we gave away snakes or traded, but they never ended up going back. i've observed the decline over the years. i helped this along as well. i don't like the feeling i get from this, and to avoid this in the future, no collecting is my rule. captive bred if i ever feel the need.

have you thought about the possibility of working with the state of florida to be allowed to breed pines and release the offspring? i know it's not as simple as i make it sound, but it's worth a look. they do it for fish, why not snakes.

see you in june???? :beer:

-ben
Lloyd Heilbrunn
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by Lloyd Heilbrunn »

Jason B wrote: Perhaps these specimens are trophies for all your field herping efforts? I'm unaware of a company that makes fiberglass replica mounts for snakes (all though there's an idea...). You can, however, get something almost as good as a replica - a live, captive bred animal. I'm sure both of these species are available through the pet trade at a fraction of the cost of what you spend on gas to go herping. What's the costs to native populations through small scale collection, repeated by half the people that read this post?

Remember, you can't buy a nonalbino
cb Pine in Florida.
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Nick
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by Nick »

Like Lloyd said, collecting your own Florida pine snake is about the only way you can legally own one in FL. Most species listed as "Special Concern" are completely off limits, but an exception was made for pine snakes. Collecting a hatchling female (yes, they can hatch out at 20"+) as Tim did can probably be considered sustainable harvest. Certainly that level of take is infinitesimal compared to the number taken by vehicles and natural predators every year.

Scarlet kings are one of the most abundant species in much of Central and North Florida, even if they are a bit more secretive than obvious species like corns and yellow rats. Collecting a single example does not warrant any criticism.
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muskiemagnet
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Post by muskiemagnet »

Lloyd Heilbrunn wrote:Remember, you can't buy a nonalbino
cb Pine in Florida.

really? seems odd that you can collect one from the wild, but you can't buy CB. how are the laws in florida? i'm guessing collection is permitted only by residents, and they cannot be transported out of state.

i'm all for CB. i think some regulation would be great for conservation as well. licenses and papers/PIT tag to go along with a purchase to verify it didn't come from the wild. this would go a long way for those who are interested in pure strains. i'm not into morphs at all. who knows, keeping genes clean could help any reintroduction/population boosting efforts if it ever came to it. i may be off my rocker a bit on this. call me a visionary i guess.

-ben
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Nick
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by Nick »

muskiemagnet wrote:
Lloyd Heilbrunn wrote:Remember, you can't buy a nonalbino
cb Pine in Florida.

really? seems odd that you can collect one from the wild, but you can't buy CB. how are the laws in florida? i'm guessing collection is permitted only by residents, and they cannot be transported out of state.

i'm all for CB. i think some regulation would be great for conservation as well. licenses and papers/PIT tag to go along with a purchase to verify it didn't come from the wild. this would go a long way for those who are interested in pure strains. i'm not into morphs at all. who knows, keeping genes clean could help any reintroduction/population boosting efforts if it ever came to it. i may be off my rocker a bit on this. call me a visionary i guess.

-ben
I've not seen any rule that restricts take to Florida residents, or restricts transporting pine snakes out of state.

I realize that in some sense Licenses/PIT Tags/Papers/Inspections sound good, but they just make life more difficult for keepers and FWC. This has already been seen with indigo snakes. There are many people in FL that would love to breed indigos, but the state doesn't want to deal with the extra cost incurred with tracking all of that, and no longer issues permits. Proposals have been made (and shot down) to salvage indigos from doomed habitat and to have residents breed indigos for reintroduction programs. Instead, incidental take permits are issued and indigos end up getting blasted or buried. From the keepers' point of view if it becomes easier to go "under the radar" than to try and deal with that kind of bureaucracy.
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muskiemagnet
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Post by muskiemagnet »

i like the "under the radar" comment. i know it would all cost money. it's a pipe dream. man, snakes will never catch a break.

that surprises me that there are no non-resident restrictions. here in wisconsin, collection is permitted to residents only.

so anyone can collect one pine? sort of brings back jason's thoughts of how "we" can have negative impacts as well.

i'll stop now. this is a topic that will divide and solve nothing. i may not agree, but as i mentioned earlier, if it's done legally, go for it.

-ben
Chris Ivins
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by Chris Ivins »

Wow Tim, brave of you to post this on a forum of elitist's who have never done anything wrong. I have collected two corn snakes in the last year or so.. Oh, and I collected a yellow rat snake and let him go in my yard.. I have no problem at all with collecting as long as you dont take more than you possibly need. I.E. taking 12+ Brooksi's over two weekends out of the wild to sell. I would never expect another person to share the same morales as I do, but the guy's that take more than they could possibly need ruin it for the rest of us..
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Tim Borski
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by Tim Borski »

Wow Tim, brave of you to post this on a forum of elitist's
:lol: :lol:


What?! Every single reply was civil...what's with you guys, getting old? :mrgreen:
Seriously tho, I tossed out the question because I was curious of your takes on the subject, not overly so...but curious nontheless.

Thanks for the thoughts/opinions. Appreciation goes out to all who shared.
Great seasons to all!
Tim
ElliotH
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by ElliotH »

Unfortunately I think the civil posts were a result of who started the thread. If a newbie came in here posting the same thing I could see it getting pretty heated pretty quickly. In fact I seem to remember some people posting similar threads on here and getting destroyed in the process. No offense intended for anyone and it was great seeing all the opinions and thoughts shared in a civil manner. :thumb:
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Don
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by Don »

ElliotH wrote:Unfortunately I think the civil posts were a result of who started the thread. If a newbie came in here posting the same thing I could see it getting pretty heated pretty quickly. In fact I seem to remember some people posting similar threads on here and getting destroyed in the process. No offense intended for anyone and it was great seeing all the opinions and thoughts shared in a civil manner. :thumb:
Chalk one up for honesty. Old herpers who keep captive herps only had one source: the field, either directly or indirectly. Most students of herpetology keep many more that they find, but they keep them in jars of alcohol.

This girl went home in a bag and bred the following spring. She's in with the same (CB) male tonight.

Image

This guy went home in a bag, and bred a WC female found under the same piece of A/C 2 weeks later. They are together again tonight. The area has since been salted with WC animals collected by a professional nuisance wildlife removal company. They got paid, the snakes were spared the hoe, and they were installed in habitat that is obviously ideal for their species and had a couple of vacancies. Win / Win!

Image

Folks who take only pictures and leave only footprints are commendable. I'd love to meet one.
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Jason B
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by Jason B »

Chris Ivins wrote: elitist's who have never done anything wrong
Haha, like Christ Herpers?

If only I could grow a beard...
Image
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FLjeep74
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by FLjeep74 »

LOL Jason, if you have the sandals, we can forgo the beard.

This has been very interesting and it's nice to have had it stay on topic and without the 'mudslinging' that is usually associated with the presumptions of collecting while out in the field. To come out of this with just one snide comment reassures me that opinions can stay civil and we shouldn't be 'afraid' of posting questions like this just for the fear of our "reputation" on this forum. Thank you Tim!

Tim, I also think you being the O.P. made this much more of an open and intriguing discussion... not one where you grimace every time you start reading the next post. It's amazing how quickly a topic can get OFF topic at times.

I relate my progression in field herping almost to a child's enthusiasm (or adults for that matter) in finding something new and fun. At first, I couldn't believe I was finding rat snakes or corn snakes, and I kept them. It was incredible to me to just go driving around and finding these awesome snakes just laying in the road. Along with finding out first hand how much responsibility comes with keeping EACH snake, the excitement of collecting gave way to the excitement of 'the hunt'. Like most of us, I would spend endless hours and endless miles driving around in hopes to find any kind of herp... then jumping out and getting a closer look.. checking them out.... then hurrying back into the car to find the next one.

With time my whole thought process went from 'catching' to 'finding'... then I realized the excitement of the photography aspect of not only herps, but everything that came with the pleasure of being outdoors, usually surrounded more by nature than by civilization. Today I bring only little zip lock tubs in case I need to get something from point A (the side of the road) to point B for photos. I still have a select few snakes that I've found over the years and I'm sure they'll be with me till either they or I kick the bucket.

Let me reel in my O.C.D. and ramblings.. as a whole I don't believe collecting a really nice/beautiful/rare animal is a bad thing. If some of us choose to "reward" ourselves and our endless hours in the field by taking home something we think is just awesome, then so be it. It's when every other snake we find becomes "awesome" that it's time to reel in one's thirst for critters.

Lastly, a lot of people supplement their income (or herps are their only income) by buying/selling and also collecting. I have no issues with somebody making their living involving herps. Who am I to infer to someone what is an acceptable/unacceptable means of doing so (as long as it's legal)? .. like it was stated earlier and I couldn't agree more... the most obnoxious thing is those who preach conservation and upholding the integrity of a species, yet they show up at the reptile shows with their tables overflowing with wild caught animals. Like in any aspect of life... hypocrisy takes an often irrelevant act/situation and magnifies it as negatively as possible.

Tim, thanks for the thought and it's nice to get sensible answers from sensible folks.

Mike
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Tim Borski
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by Tim Borski »

Haha, like Christ Herpers?
Jason, glad you were clean-cut when we met...you know how conservative I am.

Don, The honesty was refreshing. Your replies were almost a challenge, but you escaped intact...must be the Kryptonite. :thumb:
I wish you were the OP.

Chris, from what I can see, less than 50% here would fall into the "elitest" category (except on paper.)

Mike, thanks for the insight on your personal herping progression. I started similarily with regards to the catching/finding aspect but it only lasted about a month before I was full-blown-into targeting specific critters...that's where this became all-encompassingly, fascinating. Chasing specific snakes over the past few years has been one of the greatest rides I've ever been on.
*The 2 week rule has been in effect for me since day one and it wasn't until my son decided a household simply couldn't be complete without a pretty, and clean SK, that the thought of keeping an animal long term ever crossed my mind.

...The Pine? Well, it is what it is. (Jason) I've been thinking about it since you shared your opinion, and ya know what? I think (in my situation) you're correct and will probably bring Pete along the next time I'm heading back to the area. If I do, I'll release her at point of encounter and she'll be able to arrive where she was going...only, a bit later than intended. :mrgreen:

Nick, thanks for chiming in; your thoughts/opinions are always welcome. Let's hunt when you're back in town.

Ben, we're still on.

Tim
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Josh Holbrook
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by Josh Holbrook »

Tim - Chiming in from the other side O the world; I have mixed opinions on the subject. First off; I would have not connected nearly so well with nature as a kid if it weren't for taking animals (either as pets or as food in the case of deer, turkeys, etc.) And nowadays, I certainly take many more photographs than I do animals, but will occasionally collect for my own personal critters. I don't like CB much, because I'm a very narrative-oriented person and I like to be able to tell my animal's story (I flipped this Yellow Rat under a big, dusty piece of carpet in Okeechobee county, etc.) As far as commercial collecting goes; I'm one of those herpers-for-Christ that Jason was talking about so I try not to judge - but it's probably not prudent, especially with species that are abundantly available captives -and certainly wont get you any of my spots ;-)
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Lt.Mike
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by Lt.Mike »

Tim Borski wrote:
Wow Tim, brave of you to post this on a forum of elitist's
:lol: :lol:


What?! Every single reply was civil...what's with you guys, getting old? :mrgreen:
Tim
Hi Tim good to hear from ya. To answer the above question... well ya, but getting old is good.

This seems like we are laying our cards on the table here so I figured I'd throw in too. :thumb:
Me a collector, ya sure sometimes but my reasons have evolved over the years and i guess it's been more than 40 of them.

As a kid and a novice to it I didn't find much so what I found got collected.
The laws with it, well, there really wern't any back then so it wasn't an issue.

Having a pet snake here and there fired my interest and the interests of all those around me. Seeing and interacting with one in hand has a deeper affect than seeing it on TV or in a book.
It quickly dispells alot of myths and unfounded beliefs about them when people can physically interact with them. They are not slimy, not evil either, and they surprisinly can be gentle.
While I may have "collected" I've never sold a W/c anything. I won't get on a soap box or launch a crusade about it. It's just that the idea of that has never sat well with me.

Things have changed alot over the years and though it may be illegal to collect certain species because they are protected, I wouldn't collect them now not because the law says no. Don't get me wrong, of course I respect the laws, I mean come on. :roll:
It is because I recognise the numbers in the wild arn't there anymore. Its the moral side of the word "protected", the reason why they are protected I'm concerned with. I feel thats the way you have to think if its going to work at all.
Why would anyone want to be part of hurting them further?

Then there are those species that just don't do well in captivity. Why make a captive of something that won't feed and will die?
That's wrong too. Some snakes are very pretty and for some releasing a beauty can be very hard and I understand but you'll feel worse if it dies in your care.
With that said I have absolutely nothing against someone keeping a common king or rat snake as a personal pet. It promotes interest and love for the natural world.
My own feelings are that it would be the younger snakes that are better choices. Leave the older breeding age snakes, the ones that have survived natures gauntlet in the wild to provide generations to come.

I do understand what Josh has said about preseving memories of a special find. I still have the first corn (florida) that I ever found. If I found it today it would probably be released as its not that pretty.
It was a milestone for my wife and I though as we found it together.

I'm also a advocate of captive breeding. on that I have an idea.
Like getting a fiberglass mount of a fish you've caught and released vertually any snake found in the field can be legally purchased C/b, and you'll get a healthier calmer animal.

These days I still maintain a small collection of my own but of asian and others that are not to be found in the field and about 90% are captive bred.

Collecting now is an unusual thing for me as how much do I want to take care of anyway. If I want to see something special like a pine I will enjoy it when I find them in the field and nature takes care of them.
Lot less work that way. ;)
Granted its not always easy to find them but that just makes the encounter that much more special.

More often now I find pleasure in photographing and just simply being able to seek out and find a particular spiecies.
Bob Assetto once said that collectors evolve into photographers and conservationists, then encourage others on the same path and he was 100% right.

One other thing I'll add, if in the field with a fellow herper who's opinions on collecting differ you must respect the other persons take on things. You don't share locals shared with you without permission. If the other person wishes something common to stay free, respect that. Don't go back and flip that board the next week and collect that animal. Don't even return to the local without clearing it with that person either. If you can do this you will gain trust, knowledge and satisafction in being able to score finds that by yourself would either take a lifetime or be impossible.

Ok I set out to give my 2 cents worth. You got more than that, sorry I can be long winded.
But thats my stand on collecting.
Mike.
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Lt.Mike
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by Lt.Mike »

Can some one please post something so I don't feel like my last post shocked and killed the thread. ;)
ElliotH
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by ElliotH »

HECK YEA EVERYONE!!!11!!! :D :thumb: :beer: :thumb: :D
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Tim Borski
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by Tim Borski »

Can some one please post something so I don't feel like my last post shocked and killed the thread.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
ElliotH wrote:HECK YEA EVERYONE!!!11!!! :D :thumb: :beer: :thumb: :D
I'll second that.
Post closed.
Tim
Chris Ivins
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by Chris Ivins »

You could possibly do more damage returning the pine snake to where you found him. It's in my opinion a bad thing, possibly contaminating the wild Pines with a bad virus...etc..
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Crimson King
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by Crimson King »

Chris, do you know of any evidence that this has happened? I have seen the opposite side of the coin, so to speak...(introduced illness to a captive via a wc).....and I'm always telling people not to release animals, but honestly, I cannot back that up w/any evidence. I'd like to have some ammo....
Thanks
:Mark
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Nick
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by Nick »

I think captive releases have been blamed for respiratory tract infections in Desert Tortoises
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Josh Holbrook
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by Josh Holbrook »

Nick wrote:I think captive releases have been blamed for respiratory tract infections in Desert Tortoises
I also believe releasing snakes into the wild is the cause of moral decay in our society.
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soulsurvivor
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by soulsurvivor »

I used to be huge into collecting. It started as a kid with the wonderment factor someone mentioned. It exploded when I married my ex and was submerged in the commercial reptile trade, and collecting for commercial purposes. After my divorce, I kept a few captive bred snakes only, but soon began to turn away from that, too. I've witnessed a lot of people I at one time respected treat snakes as commodities. I've also seen people that claim to love snakes pester them in nature and stress the animal for no good reason. I'm not claiming to never handle a wild snake, but I do draw my lines somewhere. For example, if I come across a snake basking, I won't bother it. If it's moving across a road though, I might detain it for photographs before releasing it. And everyone has their lines.

This is a blog I wrote 2 years ago on the subject:
http://soulsurvivor08.blogspot.com/2009 ... ature.html
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Crimson King
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by Crimson King »

I also believe releasing snakes into the wild is the cause of moral decay in our society
shoot...I thought it was tooth decay...
:Mark
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bladerunner8u
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by bladerunner8u »

Crimson King wrote:
I also believe releasing snakes into the wild is the cause of moral decay in our society
shoot...I thought it was tooth decay...
:Mark
:lol:
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Tim Borski
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by Tim Borski »

Chris Ivins wrote:You could possibly do more damage returning the pine snake to where you found him. It's in my opinion a bad thing, possibly contaminating the wild Pines with a bad virus...etc..
Chris, I was under the impression that's possible if I had other CB or locality herps?
I only have one other snake at home and both are basically from the "same area" (Adjoining counties.)

Got some more info?

Thanks, man.
everyone has their lines.
True enough.
Btw, nice blog, Bree. Hope all's well out west.

Tim
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soulsurvivor
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Re: Collectors/collecting...

Post by soulsurvivor »

Thanks, Tim. It's going alright out here. Not the same as home though. I should be back in September. :thumb:
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