What is a 'true' coastal?

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ugh

What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by ugh »

bobassetto wrote:the king was in a pile of tin cans.....and some guy actually brought him to a sensitive area to collect....
This reminds me of a couple of temporalis I heard about;one reportedly in an old pepsi bottle;another found in a discarded potato chip bag....

heck for that matter that just may be my most inspiring herp,at least locally-the true coastal plain milksnake.my ongoing search for 'true' coastals from my home state of maryland(we all know NJ ones kindasorta don't count,lol) has led me on so many trips afield,of course finding other cool 'bycatch' species along the way.
It's actually embarrassing that i've STILL never found a true temporalis in my home state,which i consider the epicenter of the defunct form(I belive the type specimen was from DE though)....

Really though it's too hard to narrow down to one.Right up there with coastals i'd place EDB's,cerberus,horridus,hyla andersonii,indigoes,pines,simus,mole kings,gopher frogs.....the list goes on.


*EDIT : this was originally posted under the 'your most inspiring herp' thread hence the list above.....
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BenIsAlive
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Re: Most inspiring Herp

Post by BenIsAlive »

What does that mean “true costals“? Nj costals aren't true costals?
ugh

Re: Most inspiring Herp

Post by ugh »

BenIsAlive wrote:What does that mean “true costals“? Nj costals aren't true costals?
(To nip this in the bud so I don't get accused of hijacking another thread or something)-In a word,no(or,define 'true' 8-) )......
Currently the delaware river/bay prevents gene flow from the true delmarva coastals,but doesn't prevent genetic influx from the montane/nominate form.
This transition is pretty clearly visible in morphological charachteristics as you get further into the coastal plain.
How much of the nominate's genetic influence actually makes it down to the southernmost populations(say,cape may county?) is debatable.
I know my last two sentences sort of contradict each other-or at least seem to without better explanation-but i'm the first to admit I'm no geneticist,and I'm not trying to sidetrack this post.
Anyway this snake sparks rampant intense discussion/debate so often how could it not be considered a 'most inspiring herp'? :beer:
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Re: Most inspiring Herp

Post by Brandon, ! »

True temporalis? What do you mean by true? And how are South Jersey temporalis "not true"?

*Posted right after the response above, bad timing* Yeah let's not hijack the thread.
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Re: Most inspiring Herp

Post by brick911 »

And off we go.... :lol:
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Re: Most inspiring Herp

Post by spinifer »

I like this debate. Bob, good opportunity to practice splitting another thread.
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Re: Most inspiring Herp

Post by Matt J »

Hahahaha, I always cringe when I see temporalis written on the forum. Eventually people will want to assign separate subspecies and hybrids to every county. Maybe when I see one for myself I think think otherwise though.
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Re: Most inspiring Herp

Post by heavenscloud »

WHAT?! :lol: "True" temporalis ARE native to NJ. The issue was never what to do with Jersey temporalis and intergrades (L. t. triangulum x temporalis), but with gene flow (or lack thereof) between temporalis and elapsoides further south.

The problem with this debate is that people argue temporalis is a hybrid (L. t. triangulum x L. elapsoides), subspecies, or whatever, without realizing what the other "side" is even arguing and without everyone having reviewed the major studies and most recent research.
ugh

Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by ugh »

Heavencloud-Let me be clearer-I’m talking about temporalis in it’s purest form. Have you ever seen a jersey coastal?
They are dillute with the nominate’s genes; enough so that it predictably and consistently is revealed in their color and pattern as you head north and/or west in south jersey; I’m talking about seeing a difference between snakes found 2-3 miles apart.
Yes there are 3 seperate populations of temporalis(NJ;MD/DE;and lower VA/upper NC).....
ne NC/se VA area is what I’ve always considered the population that probably would answer the most questions surrounding these snakes because that is really as far north as you’ll find elapsoides.

Btw-Where did you say you go to look for coastals? ;)


The fact they were considered intergrades seems like just a huge mistake, I have no idea how/why it happened. William’s book did nothing to make a case for sinking the subspecies, it’s a joke. Of all the poorly defined/delineated subspecies of milksnake, you’re gonna sink the one that supposedly bridges the gap between two of the most different forms? How does that make sense? It doesn’t.


Btw why don't some of the more scholarly members weigh in on this for a change,it's always the same old people sounding off on this,gets kind of old.....
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by kyle loucks »

I still like temporalis! But that's an old debate. Those from southern MD clearly blow away the NJ stock, though they can still be pretty nice, and inspiring.
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by spinifer »

Someone posted a milk from northern GA that falls in the "intergrade" zone (lampropeltis x elapisoides) that coastals fall into (I cant remember who). Although these 2 zones are disjunct, the snakes are fairly similar looking.
ugh

Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by ugh »

thanks for mentioning that one nate.I also saw one from nw(oconee cnty) SC,it may or may not be the one you mentioned.Those specimens are super intruiging in their own right;i think of them as somewhat seperate from the whole temporalis debacle.Definitely need some mtdna work done on them.
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Matt J
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by Matt J »

Can we take a huge step back and first establish the basics of this friendly discussion so that the uneducated (myself) can know what this is all about? For example:

1. How specifically does a "coastal plain milksnake" differ from an "eastern milksnake", aside from "they look different"? I don't ever recall seeing a good pic the two to compare.
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by Brandon, ! »

Ugh, I kind of understand what you mean by "true temporalis" now. Maybe a more accurate description would be temporalis with greater elapsoides influence.

Matt there are several characteristics that distinguish coastal plains milks from eastern milks, notably the morphology, natural history, and variation in coloration. In comparison to L. t. triangulum, L. t. temporalis lack the 'Y' shaped marking on the neck. There is usually a lot of red pigmentation in this area and on the head as well. Additionally they are smaller than L. t. triangulum in average length and the dorsal blotches extend from the dorsum to or near the ventral scales. Also temporalis utilize habitats more similarly to those of elapsoides (pinewoods) and even their habits are more similar to elapsoides with diets heavy on lizards and snakes, vs. triangulum which in my experience are more prone to be surface active and feeding heavily on rodents.

Go find a milksnake from southern Delmarva and compare those to the other ones you have found (in the piedmont?) in MD and you'll see what I'm talking about.
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by Matt J »

Brandon, ! wrote:Matt there are several characteristics that distinguish coastal plains milks from eastern milks, notably the morphology, natural history, and variation in coloration. In comparison to L. t. triangulum, L. t. temporalis lack the 'Y' shaped marking on the neck. There is usually a lot of red pigmentation in this area and on the head as well. Additionally they are smaller than L. t. triangulum in average length and the dorsal blotches extend from the dorsum to or near the ventral scales. Also temporalis utilize habitats more similarly to those of elapsoides (pinewoods) and even their habits are more similar to elapsoides with diets heavy on lizards and snakes, vs. triangulum which in my experience are more prone to be surface active and feeding heavily on rodents.
That was absolutely perfect, thank you very much. I knew that coastals were smaller and in sandier habitats, but that was the extent of it. Again, thanks!

Brandon, ! wrote:Go find a milksnake from southern Delmarva and compare those to the other ones you have found (in the piedmont?) in MD and you'll see what I'm talking about.
Umm, it may be a little tough to turn up a Delmarva coastal. I'll stick with wood frogs :lol:
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by kyle loucks »

Umm, it may be a little tough to turn up a Delmarva coastal. I'll stick with wood frogs
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by heavenscloud »

Matt J: In addition to what's been mentioned, there's a lot of variability in morphology. I've seen pics of temporalis with no neck collar, but a head pattern more closely resembling that of nominate triangulum.

There was a school of thought that temporalis is a huge hybrid zone of L. t. triangulum and L. elapsoides, with individuals to the north and west looking more like triangulum and individuals to the south more closely resembling elapsoides. This view was popularized by Kenneth Williams' landmark Systematics.

Years ago, Roger Conant proposed that temporalis could possibly be a relict population of L. t. syspila that was trapped in the mid-Atlantic region after the last ice age. Prior to this event, a "prairie peninsula" extended from the Midwest to the mid-Atlantic region, which would have facilitated the move eastward.

This debate is often complicated by misinformation. I used to have a list of literature on the subject, but it was lost when the forum crashed. I'll try to post the citations this weekend.

Ugh: It's pretty well-accepted that temporalis and triangulum x temporalis exist in NJ, which we agree on. There's a lot of variability within a subspecies, and I hesitate to use morphology alone to make a case (especially with temporalis). To my knowledge, temporalis hasn't been studied enough for us to intelligently discuss gene flow, though I would agree with Grogan and Forester that Delmarva geography likely serves as a genetic bottleneck to some extent.
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by bobassetto »

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA..........i don't believe that temporalis is a elapsoides X triangulum........relict population of sysplia is best hypothesis.......this discussion is best done in person......lets do it right........we got the time........
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by wayne_fidler »

enough talk more pics lol. so if temporalis are indeed a hybrid of elapsoides and triangulum has anyone bred them together in captivity to see what the results were? side note I do not encourage hybridization other than natural intergrades but inquiring minds want to know.
ugh

Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by ugh »

cloud i would like to see that list of papers,i remember seeing you post that before.

brandon-maybe i misunderstood ya but the md temps have no actual elapsoides influence whatsoever-those similarities in morphology/behavior/habitat are via convergent evolution perhaps but there's no genetic exchange between them.

most if not all the old coastal guys i know with first hand field experience don't really play the forum game.....
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by pete »

i definitely don't believe that they are hybrids and i do think that they are different from triangulum proper. in md.there is a well defined line west and northwest of d.c.(this zone is small) where milks have temporalis and t triangulum traits. east of d.c. the snakes become more temporalis like until so. md. where they are just little gems :) flipping one or finding a dor can ruin you for life.

i love threads about these critters, nobody can agree on ANYTHING other than they are beautiful lil snakes.

how was that for some nonsense :D
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by heavenscloud »

ugh wrote:most if not all the old coastal guys i know with first hand field experience don't really play the forum game.....
but there's a true wizard of temporalis among us-he knows who he is,he's "prolly gettin' '$h!thammid' right now" :lol: 'go sawx' this guy's so legit,what he know of them he learned in the field....but i guess he's just in lurkin' mode.....
Ugh, it doesn't matter how many of these things you see in the field or at Hamburg, morphology alone just doesn't cut it, and I don't understand the mindset that anecdotal field experience somehow trumps empirical evidence.
ugh

Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by ugh »

"just doesn't cut ' what?
the vast majority of what we know about these animals is based on what you seem to dismiss as 'anecdotal evidence'.

I'd say mtdna is 'empirical' as you can get;I mentioned that earlier.I don't think I'm seeing your point though cloud.
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by heavenscloud »

My point here and in the last thread we had on this topic is that anecdotal evidence will not solve the temporalis mystery. The last discussion was all about people throwing out their personal claims/ideas without really having a clue about the latest research. It seemed this thread was heading in that direction as well. I get tired of "so and so knows this about x" being the gold standard of information. I say this as a hobbyist myself. Don't take my word for it. Read the studies. Talk to the researchers. There's information I can't share here because it hasn't been published....
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by spinifer »

Heavenscloud wrote:There's information I can't share here because it hasn't been published....
Well what the heck are they waiting for? :x
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by bobassetto »

i don't think that elapsoides is a kingsnake/milksnake!!!!!!!!........and i don't think there is any documented captive breeding of elapsoides X triangulum.........as we know the two species do exist together in some areas.......sympatrick???.....that ain't spelt right......i'm tired...... :sleep: :sleep:.....
ugh

Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by ugh »

heavenscloud wrote:. Read the studies. Talk to the researchers. There's information I can't share here because it hasn't been published....
Absolutely-that's why i asked for you to compile that list for us again.Chances are it's mostly stuff I've read but it's good to have it all pooled together in one place for people to see.
Grogan et al. waited too long to publish and they got 'scooped'.....

Bob,the latest dna work shows elapsoides' closest relative is the L. mexicana group(!).fascinating...
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by heavenscloud »

ugh wrote:Absolutely-that's why i asked for you to compile that list for us again.Chances are it's mostly stuff I've read but it's good to have it all pooled together in one place for people to see.
Sure. I'll dig up all those papers this weekend. 8-)
ugh wrote:Grogan et al. waited too long to publish and they got 'scooped'.....
What do you mean by "scooped"? Someone else published it?
ugh

Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by ugh »

Don't take my word for it look it up.
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by Mike VanValen »

I also love this topic. I am not sure what a temporalis really is but some of them sure do look like syspila. In fact, some of them look so much like a syspila that I wouldn't know the difference if you placed them side by side.

That's only going by the photos I've seen. I haven't been lucky enough to see one in person yet.
bobassetto wrote:i don't think that elapsoides is a kingsnake/milksnake!!!!!!!!
Care to expand on that, Bob?
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by brick911 »

I agree on the syspila as well. But I'm not very experienced with temporalis pictures.
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by Brandon, ! »

ugh wrote:brandon-maybe i misunderstood ya but the md temps have no actual elapsoides influence whatsoever-those similarities in morphology/behavior/habitat are via convergent evolution perhaps but there's no genetic exchange between them.
You are right, there is no genetic exchange between temporalis and elapsoides in southern delmarva. There probably never was genetic exchange between the two species in this region. Also, I stated that the the habits of temporalis are more similar to those of elapsoides (call it convergence if you want), not that their habits are derived from elapsoides natural history.

The idea of a remnant syspila population forming what we now see today as temporalis is appealing. And I would have to agree with Mike V., morphologically temporalis are very syspila like.
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by mikez »

One reason some folks don't bother with this topic is it's a severely beaten dead horse, not to mention nobody has ever answered any of the questions to anyone else's satisfaction. You could compile a very thick book of threads from all the various forums over the years, and that's just the hobbyists for the most part.

What intrigues me is what makes them so rare [as defined by being wicked hard to find].
Both easterns and SKs are easy to find as are most all other L triangulum subspecies.
Sure some claim they're easy in NJ, but that's 'cause they count the slightest red tinge in color or the most faint resemblence of a collar. :lol:

Why do so few show up in places that are hunted heavy by generations of herpers, often locals who go their whole lives without finding one?
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by heavenscloud »

ugh wrote:Don't take my word for it look it up.
Or, you could act like a rational adult and tell me whether or not it's been published. Kinda like I'm more than willing to help out by posting those citations. ;)
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by bobassetto »

it ain't a collar or color that defines the temporalis......its the dorsal blotches reaching the belly scutes and a reduced or absent lateral blotche pattern........and there are "experts" out there that can't tell a temporalis from a sysplia....... :lol: :lol: ...to me elapsloides is more like a longnose or shovelnose......but i can accept a close relationship to the mexicana group.....i think they may be considered the most primitive lampropeltis group?????........why would triangulum and elapsoides intergrate on the coast and not the piedmont where both are found?????.......coastals are "WICKED" hard to find in delmarva and south because we ain't figured how to find 'em in that environment.....i know a good deal of the original environment is changed....
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by pete »

They are wicked hard to find because they spend most of their time underground. their favorite food lives underground, with security and meals whats the point of spending time on the surface?

and if they are the same as easterns, why don't easterns occur in the same localities?
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by Matt J »

pete wrote:...and if they are the same as easterns, why don't easterns occur in the same localities?
I think that argument is moot. Timber rattlesnakes and copperheads utilize numerous habitat types, should they be broken up into separate species/subspecies/intergrades/hybrids/etc.?

Respectfully,
Matt the "Lumper"
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by pete »

I'm all for lumping! but a timber from the pines can look like a timber from the mountains and will have the same basic habits that a montane timber will.(hibernacula excluded) but a milk from delmarva looks and acts nothing like a milk from the piedmont. so i won't lump em as one ;)
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by joconnor »

Actually ,not to get off topic , but both species / sub species occur where i live , in Monmouth Co , NJ sometimes within a close physical proximity to each other . Might be a good chapter "outing " someday ? Not that we could take DNA samples , but it might be worth exploring at least the concept ?
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by spinifer »

Joe, would be nice to see pics of the different types from one local so we can see what you are talking about.
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by kyle loucks »

Here ya go... Monmouth co... In the transition zone between piedmont and coastal plain.
Low triad count, it was in a shed but promised to be a beauty.

Bad lighting at the time and a crappy camera.

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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by brick911 »

The only coastal I've found was a DOR. I can put it up if you want. I've posted it before.
ugh

Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by ugh »

As for A. contortrix(with subspecies just as poorly dilineated as those of triangulum) they’re a generalist, and seem to fare pretty well cohabitating with man,if for no other reason than being inconspicuous.

But I like that horridus analogy Matt/Pete…..

I was recently talking about that with another FHF member-Relations between the montane and coastal populations of C. horridus. Unfortunately due (mostly)to loss of sufficient habitat, the species is largely absent from the piedmont, keeping the upland and lowland forms largely separate. Thing is it seems like a vivid example of speciation going on before our eyes. I don’t rule out this is what we’re seeing in temporalis…….

The most(only?) isolated(e.g. furthest from the fall line and those montane/upper piedmont nominates) population would be that in lower VA/ne NC,and indeed those stand out on another level. Morphologically they are dead ringers for big scarlet kings.(No blotches here,they are more often than not fully ringed across the belly; their heads are ridiculously smallish, pointed and solid red and show no constriction at the neck.
These are the ones whose dna most needed to be compared to that of elapsoides.
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by muskiemagnet »

heavenscloud wrote:anecdotal evidence will not solve the temporalis mystery.

this is where i get lost on science. what? why? really? what mystery? coastals are there. will this world be a better place if we can figure out how they got there? i mean really, who's to say that coastals weren't the first. maybe all the others came from them. i applaud all of you for having a passion on the topic, but man, this will never stop. what happens when a new scientific study refutes past info that you all are basing your opinions on? all i'm saying is that it seems to me there is nothing to prove. the answer will never be found. the only thing science should teach us is that we will never understand it.

they sure are pretty snakes though.

Ugh wrote "The most(only?) isolated(e.g. furthest from the fall line and those montane/upper piedmont nominates) population would be that in lower VA/ne NC,and indeed those stand out on another level. Morphologically they are dead ringers for big scarlet kings.(No blotches here,they are more often than not fully ringed across the belly; their heads are ridiculously smallish, pointed and solid red and show no constriction at the neck.
These are the ones whose dna most needed to be compared to that of elapsoides."

this is a hatchling NC coastal i got from a breeder a few years back. unfortunately my roommate set the log on top of it. i wish i had sub-adult pics for you all. i saw pics of the parents, and if i remember correctly, they had some odd looking white speckling on the head. not sure if that is an age thing though.

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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by Matt J »

Kyle, is the individual you posted what people would call a "coastal plain milksnake" or an "eastern milksnake"?
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by kyle loucks »

Matt J wrote:Kyle, is the individual you posted what people would call a "coastal plain milksnake" or an "eastern milksnake"?
I would call it an eastern, but could be a coastal x eastern morph... the line has to be somewhere and this area may be it.

Monmouth county has pinebarrens and more upland, deciduous areas going towards the piedmont, which is where mine was from.

This next one here, by bobbleton, was found in the pinebarrens section of the county. This one is identical to a large adult I found in Atlantic county some years ago.
http://www.naherp.com/viewrecord.php?r_id=6769
ugh

Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by ugh »

bobassetto wrote:.....and i don't think there is any documented captive breeding of elapsoides X triangulum..........

Though many accomplished breeders have tried every way.....

I agree Kyle-to say your Monmouth snake has more than very slight coastal influence would be a stretch.every diagnostic says 'eastern'-head pattern,lateral blotches,larger overall body size;which is consistent with that locale.
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by brick911 »

While I am very ignorant to the whole debate and its not the most scientific reason for me to base my opinion, that is enough for me to believe in temporalis.
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by Brandon, ! »

muskiemagnet wrote:
heavenscloud wrote:anecdotal evidence will not solve the temporalis mystery.
this is where i get lost on science. what? why? really? what mystery? coastals are there.
Muskiemagnet,

Heavens is right IMO, anecdotal won't solve the temporalis mystery (the mystery isn't if coastals are there or not, they obviously are otherwise we wouldn't be having this debate and scientists in the past and present wouldn't care of the subject) but it sure has helped us so far in theorizing what temporalis are and where they came from.
muskiemagnet wrote: all i'm saying is that it seems to me there is nothing to prove. the answer will never be found.
It was also impossible to go to the moon, or anywhere in space for that matter. Apparently it's impossible to cure cancer as well. I don't subscribe to these thoughts. Genetics should solve the temporalis debate.
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by Matt J »

Such a good thread so far, makes me want to get out and start hunting for one. We should put a poll up to gauge our current ideas, cuz I've already lost track :lol:
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