What is a 'true' coastal?

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Mike VanValen
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by Mike VanValen »

What I'd like to know is how the conclusion was reached that coastals were a triangulum x elapsoides. This goes back to at least the 50's, correct?

Did they just say "well, that's what it looks like so it's a reasonable explanation."
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spinifer
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by spinifer »

Mike VanValen wrote:What I'd like to know is how the conclusion was reached that coastals were a triangulum x elapsoides. This goes back to at least the 50's, correct?

Did they just say "well, that's what it looks like so it's a reasonable explanation."
Exactly. Since triangulum and elapsoides were then considered subspecies and "Coastals" were found between the 2 ranges and showed a gradual change they were listed as intergrades. No different than punctatus x edwardsi.
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Cole Grover
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by Cole Grover »

spinifer wrote:
Mike VanValen wrote:What I'd like to know is how the conclusion was reached that coastals were a triangulum x elapsoides. This goes back to at least the 50's, correct?

Did they just say "well, that's what it looks like so it's a reasonable explanation."
Exactly. Since triangulum and elapsoides were then considered subspecies and "Coastals" were found between the 2 ranges and showed a gradual change they were listed as intergrades. No different than punctatus x edwardsi.
Si. I agree, though the "gradual changes" may be due to convergence on a particular pheno- and ecotype at the southern end of the coastal triangulum range (NC temporalis) and the northern end of the coastal elapsoides range (Blanchard's "virginiana"). That's one of the things that makes this scenario so damn fascinating.

You North East guys have some cool stuff going on. A bit jealous out here in the Intermountain West...

-Cole
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Cole Grover
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by Cole Grover »

Jaycee wrote:And hopefully sooner than later more snake taxon will fall like dominoes...
Que? I'm not sure I follow. Do you mean more "lumping" of species, that the "unknowns" surrounding various species will fall (i.e.; we will get a better understanding of the species' evolutionary histories), or both? We will certainly gain more information regarding the phylogenies of various taxa, but that may or may NOT result in "lumping" species together. In fact, it is often found that there are cryptic, morphologically indistinguishable (or nearly so) species currently "lumped" under one name. Look at the Plethodon glutinosus complex as an example. Regardless, it's cool stuff.
John Vanek wrote:Evolution is a fact, as demonstrated numerous times. The theory is HOW evolution works, of which there are several ideas, mainly "natural selection" and "sexual selection." These are both theories that attempt to explain evolution.
Totally. Don't leave out neutral theory, either. In all likelihood, multiple evolutionary pressures are acting on a given population at any one time. Theories in science are testable, verifiable ideas which have insurmountable evidence supporting them.
John Vanek wrote:I'll never understand why people get frustrated at the curiosity of others.
Me, either. I'm insatiably curious about the world around us. Teasing apart the secrets is the fun part!

-Cole
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spinifer
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by spinifer »

John Vanek wrote:
muskiemagnet wrote: after all, evolution is just a theory.

-ben

I'm sorry, I can't leave this untouched. Evolution isn't a theory. Evolution is a fact, as demonstrated numerous times. The theory is HOW evolution works, of which there are several ideas, mainly "natural selection" and "sexual selection." These are both theories that attempt to explain evolution.

Evolution is a fact in the same way that gravity is a fact. Evolution is observable, just like gravity is observable. We have a "theory of gravity" which explains HOW gravity works.

"Theory" in the colloquial sense doesn't mean the same thing as it does in the science world. Scientists use the word "theory" to mean: a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses (National Academy of Sciences).


Also, SURE it doesn't really matter if we figure out where we came from, but I like to think we are all curious observers of nature, and there is nothing wrong with trying to figure out a puzzle. I'll never understand why people get frustrated at the curiosity of others.
:thumb:
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Brian Hubbs
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by Brian Hubbs »

People get frustrated by the curiosity of others because it threatens their ideas of how things are. Especially religious ideas. Many people are not comfortable with the idea that we do not know everything...it makes them feel insecure. it threatens their whole way of thinking and being. I don't understand it, but it is a fact...
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Brian Hubbs
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by Brian Hubbs »

Unfortunately, that is not the prevalent attitude in America...
heavenscloud
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by heavenscloud »

Brian Hubbs wrote:People get frustrated by the curiosity of others because it threatens their ideas of how things are. Especially religious ideas. Many people are not comfortable with the idea that we do not know everything...it makes them feel insecure. it threatens their whole way of thinking and being. I don't understand it, but it is a fact...
True dat. Spent most of my life as a fundie. Glad that's over.
mikez
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by mikez »

I'm sooo glad to come back for a visit after a long absence and find this thread at the top! :beer:
I can't tell you how refreshing it is to read compared to the "my list is bigger than your list" crap that these forums have become. reminds me of the good ole days of forum discussions...

Anyway, I was thinking of this topic recently when i went to a talk about the eastern coyote. The talk was advertised to be about the natural history of an animal alot of local folks are interested in from a nature observation point of view. Instead he used the platform to make a pretty strong case for his theory the animal should be called "coy-wolf". He had some impressive genetic research that really muddied conventional wisdom on the north american canid family. The part that cracked me up was when some old timer objected to his theory by asking how a wolf/coyote hybrid could reproduce. He wanted the species concept explained in concrete terms the room full of regular folks could understand. The poor guy giving the talk was totally stymied and hemmed and hawwed and basically wrecked what should have been a decent talk.

It just ain't that cut and dried.
mikez
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by mikez »

Yah, this researcher had data on red wolf, timber wolf, grey wolf, eastern and western coyote. To be honest, i disliked the guy 'cause of his strong anti-hunter bias which caused him to make some painfully inflamatory statements [to me], but he sold me on the blended "species" making up the "coy-wolf".
All through the talk I couldn't stop thinking about L. triangulum et al.
heavenscloud
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by heavenscloud »

Jaycee wrote:But meanwhile let's keep acknowledging the however-many dozen milk snake( or kingsnakes/ racers/gopher snakes/garters, etc...) subspecies for nothing more than the slightest variations a color or number of blotches in their pattern. :roll: :lol:
He's got a point there. :thumb:

Let's ask Hubbs what he thinks about the getula split. That's always fun.
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Cole Grover
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by Cole Grover »

heavenscloud wrote:
Jaycee wrote:But meanwhile let's keep acknowledging the however-many dozen milk snake( or kingsnakes/ racers/gopher snakes/garters, etc...) subspecies for nothing more than the slightest variations a color or number of blotches in their pattern. :roll: :lol:
He's got a point there. :thumb:

Let's ask Hubbs what he thinks about the getula split. That's always fun.
There will be far fewer regional forms of triangulum recognized in the near future. As nostalgic as I feel about several of them, evidence trumps.

Cole
heavenscloud
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by heavenscloud »

Cole Grover wrote:As nostalgic as I feel . . ., evidence trumps.
Word to that. If only half the country thought the same way. Okay, I'll stop. :? :lol:

I only know of one person working on triangulum, but I haven't kept up with the research. Would you mind giving us an update?
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EasternMilkShake
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Re: What is a 'true' coastal?

Post by EasternMilkShake »

This ....my friends.......................is a true coastal
Image
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