These are not coastal animals they were from the Sierra's. Posted it in the main forum too, figured I'd post it here as well.
I actually found this animal twice this time May 31.
This time May 8th.
Thanks,
Chad
Funky Masticophis lateralis lateralis
Moderator: Scott Waters
- Chad M. Lane
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- Location: Manteca, CA
- Natalie McNear
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Re: Funky Masticophis lateralis lateralis
Sweeeeet... The yellow on them things is insane!
Re: Funky Masticophis lateralis lateralis
colorful racer
- Ross Padilla
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Re: Funky Masticophis lateralis lateralis
Wow, those things have super wide stripes. What a cool look. That second to last shot is great!
Re: Funky Masticophis lateralis lateralis
Awesome snake and pics! Thanks!
Re: Funky Masticophis lateralis lateralis
So what identifies Alameda racers as Alameda other than stripe width?
- Chad M. Lane
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Re: Funky Masticophis lateralis lateralis
That is a GREAT point to bring up. I don't know about any genetic differences between the two subspecies. Some people think the subspecies status is bogus, but I've never found Alameda's (not for the lack of trying either). I guess according to F&G it's the scales in the stripe, but Sam Murry/Dave Jahn have found ones with normal lateralis lateralis striping in the range of Alameda's.So what identifies Alameda racers as Alameda other than stripe width?
Other than those points, range defines the subspecies? I think there needs to be more work on the subspecies to see if they ARE genetically different. Does anyone know if there are any papers discussing this issue?
I'd be interested in reading it.
If anyone has any input on this subject please post it.
Cheers,
Chad
- Chad M. Lane
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Re: Funky Masticophis lateralis lateralis
No one has any input? Well I am off tomorrow to try and find some, and get some tail clippings. Actually I'll be leaving in 5 hours.
Cheers,
Chad
Cheers,
Chad
Re: Funky Masticophis lateralis lateralis
I was alway under the impression that the color of the stripe (orange) was a factor as well as width, but not totaly sure...John
- Chad M. Lane
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- Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:40 pm
- Location: Manteca, CA
Re: Funky Masticophis lateralis lateralis
Well I've never personally found a Alameda (seen a few), I think they very just like M. l. l. does.
Re: Funky Masticophis lateralis lateralis
Man, I'd sure hate to find a snake and then see that someone had mutilated it. Funny irony that we think we need to destroy something in order to understand it. Why not just enjoy the damn thing.Chad M. Lane wrote:Well I am off tomorrow to try and find some, and get some tail clippings. Actually I'll be leaving in 5 hours.
Cheers,
Chad
- Chad M. Lane
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- Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:40 pm
- Location: Manteca, CA
Re: Funky Masticophis lateralis lateralis
Well we seen a few but couldn't get them, to hot.
Also how is taking a small tissue sample from the tail destroying it? Also BTW I wasn't the one doing the clippings if we did get some.
Cheers,
Chad
Also how is taking a small tissue sample from the tail destroying it? Also BTW I wasn't the one doing the clippings if we did get some.
Cheers,
Chad
Re: Funky Masticophis lateralis lateralis
I'm probably exceptional in my aesthetics and these concerns but I wouldn't have an issue with a tissue sample as long as it doesn't F'up the animal. To me though, a clipped/stub tail destroys the overall beauty of the animal and personally, that is my main attraction to this crap in the first place Others I assume take most pleasure in the scientific analysis and intellectual aspect of the hobby, with the aesthetics coming secondary if at all. Does the animal care? ...probably not much in the case of a little tail nip.
- Chad M. Lane
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Re: Funky Masticophis lateralis lateralis
So you are telling me a snake that has scars from fights, and missing tail tips, from other animals in their natural environment is a F/ed up, and ugly animal, just because it has a few scars, and a tip of the tail missing? You have to be kidding me.
I've found so many snakes with missing tail tips, and little to MAJOR scars all over them, these animals are build to go through these things. I just don't understand why you have such a huge problem with taking a tissue sample, and the tip 2-3cm of a tail makes them ugly and destroys them? The whole reason to it, (even though we didn't get to) was that some biologist down in San Diego, were doing a study on lateralis, and they though that getting samples from these particular animals would be awesome in the fact that they look so much a like Alameda Whipsnakes, and they we wondering if they had any genetic relation to them, so far outside their range.
Sorry that I don't understand why you have such a problem with it. You my express that it stresses that animal out to much. If you call that card, I'll have to say that, that is BS, as I know of a recent Rubber Boa being found after having a tissue sample taken, and I believe it was found 2 times AFTER the tissue sample was taken.
I've also found many snakes, moved them to photograph them, having them out from under the rock for 20-30mins, let them go under the same rock, go back 3 weeks later and find the SAME snakes under the SAME rocks. Now I am sure some individuals, and species stress out more than others, but I really don't think it does to much harm at all. If it did how would they deal with predators?
Sorry for my rant.
Cheers,
Chad
I've found so many snakes with missing tail tips, and little to MAJOR scars all over them, these animals are build to go through these things. I just don't understand why you have such a huge problem with taking a tissue sample, and the tip 2-3cm of a tail makes them ugly and destroys them? The whole reason to it, (even though we didn't get to) was that some biologist down in San Diego, were doing a study on lateralis, and they though that getting samples from these particular animals would be awesome in the fact that they look so much a like Alameda Whipsnakes, and they we wondering if they had any genetic relation to them, so far outside their range.
Sorry that I don't understand why you have such a problem with it. You my express that it stresses that animal out to much. If you call that card, I'll have to say that, that is BS, as I know of a recent Rubber Boa being found after having a tissue sample taken, and I believe it was found 2 times AFTER the tissue sample was taken.
I've also found many snakes, moved them to photograph them, having them out from under the rock for 20-30mins, let them go under the same rock, go back 3 weeks later and find the SAME snakes under the SAME rocks. Now I am sure some individuals, and species stress out more than others, but I really don't think it does to much harm at all. If it did how would they deal with predators?
Sorry for my rant.
Cheers,
Chad
Re: Funky Masticophis lateralis lateralis
C'mon man, I didn't say I had a "HUGE" problem with it, and I did qualify that my personal aesthetics are probably the exception (read neurotic). There is something about a few battle scars that speaks highly of an tough old survivor so I deal with that ok But I would never disfigure a snake purposefully - and yes, to me personally, cutting of the tail tip is disfigurement. As for doing that in the name of soliciting grant money, er I mean science, ...well, whatever. I'd probably do the same thing if my livelihood depended on it too.
As for stressing them out I'll quote myself:
Sorry if I came off all bent. I'm just expressing my feelings about it and not losing any sleep over it. I also have a lot of respect for your herping prowess and experience (and photography) which far exceeds my own.
As for stressing them out I'll quote myself:
Maybe that's not clear but what I meant was that it probably doesn't make any difference (cause stress) to the animal.self wrote:Does the animal care? ...probably not much in the case of a little tail nip
Sorry if I came off all bent. I'm just expressing my feelings about it and not losing any sleep over it. I also have a lot of respect for your herping prowess and experience (and photography) which far exceeds my own.
- Chad M. Lane
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- Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:40 pm
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Re: Funky Masticophis lateralis lateralis
Well I guess I am just as guilty for not reading it carefully enough. You didn't come off bent, just a little.
I just didn't understand your point of view at the time. I understand your point of view on disfiguring, but just don't 100% agree with it. We are all entitled to our own opinions. I don't see a problem with a small tail clipping. As we didn't get to do, it I am not sure how much he takes or how exactly he does it, but he did say it was only a small amount of tissue needed for the study.
It's not for money (at least not for me) it was to learn if somehow 200 miles outside Alameda range if this population had any relation to Alameda's.
Thanks,
Chad
I just didn't understand your point of view at the time. I understand your point of view on disfiguring, but just don't 100% agree with it. We are all entitled to our own opinions. I don't see a problem with a small tail clipping. As we didn't get to do, it I am not sure how much he takes or how exactly he does it, but he did say it was only a small amount of tissue needed for the study.
It's not for money (at least not for me) it was to learn if somehow 200 miles outside Alameda range if this population had any relation to Alameda's.
Thanks,
Chad
Re: Funky Masticophis lateralis lateralis
Its this type of "mutilation" that gathers the data which enables legislation to be passed to protect these animals for the future so you can continue viewing them for their "aesthetics". Did you ever think about that?
Re: Funky Masticophis lateralis lateralis
Well taken Chad - and I did use the words "destroy" and "mutilation" inappropriately (subsequently using "disfigure") which certainly didn't help the tone of my post.
All that said, isn't there a way to get tissue that doesn't require tail nip? I just saw an image the other day of a researcher taking a belly scute clipping with I believe would heal over.
Very good point and I am very aware of that. I would also like to retract this bitcgparis wrote:Its this type of "mutilation" that gathers the data which enables legislation to be passed to protect these animals for the future so you can continue viewing them for their "aesthetics". Did you ever think about that?
That was a very low blow and unfair characterization of some serious researchers who practice valid conservation science. To them I apologize.monklet wrote:doing that in the name of soliciting grant money, er I mean science, ...well, whatever. I'd probably do the same thing if my livelihood depended on it too
All that said, isn't there a way to get tissue that doesn't require tail nip? I just saw an image the other day of a researcher taking a belly scute clipping with I believe would heal over.
Re: Funky Masticophis lateralis lateralis
You could euthanize it and then take tissue directly from the liver. It's body would still look aesthetically pleasing but it'd be dead.
Re: Funky Masticophis lateralis lateralis
Yeah, and that would be cool as long as you took photos right away. But you'd have to embalm it really well for it to last. The upside is that you could find it again the next day.cgparis wrote:You could euthanize it and then take tissue directly from the liver. It's body would still look aesthetically pleasing but it'd be dead.