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 Post subject: QUESTION: Does Your State Ban Road Cruising?
PostPosted: May 27th, 2017, 7:18 am 
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Joined: June 8th, 2010, 11:13 pm
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Location: Greater Houston TX Area
Need some forum input on this one. Specifically, I need to know if it is written into your state's wildlife code somewhere that prohibits touching a reptile or amphibian on a roadway. I already know Texas does (since 2007), but to my knowledge this is the only state to ban this activity. Where possible, please provide a link to your state's specific section of wildlife code/regulations stating the restriction/prohibition--I can't use answers based on conversations with LE, etc.

Example: Texas bans road cruising in which you touch or pursue herps; link: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PW.62.htm, specifically 62.0031 subsections (c) and (e).

Please read others' responses before answering, so we don't get a thread with 20 responses from Texans (which I've already answered)... :lol:

I ask because I'm trying to finish up the analysis of our SWCHR 2015 Reptile and Amphibian Public Opinion Survey,* and need the information in relation to a write-in response received.

Thank you!




*Yes, nearly two years after the survey ran...number-crunching has taken a long time since it's all done in what little spare time I have...


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 Post subject: Re: QUESTION: Does Your State Ban Road Cruising?
PostPosted: May 27th, 2017, 9:19 am 

Joined: March 18th, 2015, 7:06 pm
Posts: 35
I think road cruising is legal everywhere as long as you stay in your vehicle. In many states, including NJ, if traffic allows it's ok if you stop but do not pick up or interfere with the creature in any way. Many road cruisers are wildlife thieves.

In NJ exceptions to the do not touch rules are made for migrating amphibians, but only in specified areas at specific times, usually under supervision. Things like saving turtles in danger of being run over, while technically not permitted, are considered benign and overlooked by enforcement people. Usually.


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 Post subject: Re: QUESTION: Does Your State Ban Road Cruising?
PostPosted: May 27th, 2017, 10:26 am 
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ackee wrote:
I think road cruising is legal everywhere as long as you stay in your vehicle. In many states, including NJ, if traffic allows it's ok if you stop but do not pick up or interfere with the creature in any way. Many road cruisers are wildlife thieves.

In NJ exceptions to the do not touch rules are made for migrating amphibians, but only in specified areas at specific times, usually under supervision. Things like saving turtles in danger of being run over, while technically not permitted, are considered benign and overlooked by enforcement people. Usually.


I cannot use this information unless you have references to the applicable statutes. :?


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 Post subject: Re: QUESTION: Does Your State Ban Road Cruising?
PostPosted: May 29th, 2017, 8:33 am 
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Joined: June 11th, 2010, 5:01 am
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Location: Louisiana
Not prohibited in Louisiana

RS56.632-637
RS76.XV.100


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 Post subject: Re: QUESTION: Does Your State Ban Road Cruising?
PostPosted: May 29th, 2017, 1:06 pm 
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Joined: June 8th, 2010, 11:13 pm
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Location: Greater Houston TX Area
Thank you, Jeff...only 48 states left! :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: QUESTION: Does Your State Ban Road Cruising?
PostPosted: May 30th, 2017, 6:08 am 
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Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:23 am
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Location: Unicoi, TN
in short.... no....
however.....

I understand, Chris, your topic is the herping specific laws on roads (such as Texas has.), so Tennessee doesn’t have any such specific laws, but, as in all states, herpers need to be mindful of any state motor vehicle laws.
Under Tennessee criminal traffic laws, you may be charged with reckless driving if there is probable cause to believe that you drive “in willful or wanton disregard for the safety of persons or property”, which occasionally zealous herpers might violate.


An Excerpt from our wildlife regs:
“1660-1-18-.01 GENERAL PROVISIONS GOVERNING POSSESISON OF LIVE WILDLIFE.”
“(3) No wildlife may be taken from the wild in Tennessee except as provided for by statute, proclamation, and/or rule.”
A visitor or resident who safely pulls off the road to photograph wildlife is generally not in violation. Picking the animal up without permit can be another issue!

Our wildlife agency has done a great job of taking their rules and regulations out of the mysterious dark closet that many DNR agencies traditionally keep them in:
https://www.tn.gov/twra/article/rules-regulations

http://share.tn.gov/sos/rules/1660/1660-01/1660-01-18.20151022.pdf
edit for newer URL of rules
http://publications.tnsosfiles.com/rule ... 151022.pdf

On a secondary note, road cruising in the southern Appalachians can be very dangerous because many roads are twisty, with limited or no visibility around turns, and have no shoulders to speak of.


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 Post subject: Re: QUESTION: Does Your State Ban Road Cruising?
PostPosted: May 30th, 2017, 3:11 pm 

Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm
Posts: 1722
Hi Chris, interesting survey. TX is an interesting place. I mean, the stuff that is legal, versus the stuff that isn't.

UT - the answer is no, regarding the wildlife agency. Bill is 100% right concerning motor vehicle laws though, which is what most (like, ANY) LE personnel are going to be most mindful of because, well, people can and do get killed - or worse, cause others' deaths - doing dumb stuff on the road. Like - driving 30mph in a 65mph zone, and stopping in their tracks and hopping out of the car and walking around on the pavement, not looking up and around them. Ha ha, not so funny though. Cops in any uniform are going to give you hell for being an idiot on the road. Public safety is their mission.

I know you know that Chris, I just want to remind anyone who might read this. "Don't be an idiot, try to die old, not young. Also, don't kill anybody else, intentionally or otherwise."

Anyway, back to the answer to your question:
Quote:
R657-53-21. Prohibited Collection Methods.
(1) Amphibians and reptiles may not be collected using any method prohibited in this rule and the proclamations of the Wildlife Board except as provided by a certificate of registration or the Wildlife Board.
(a) Lethal methods of collection are prohibited except as provided in Subsections R657-53-27(6) and R657-53-28(6), (8),and (9).
(b) The destruction of habitats such as breaking apart of rocks, logs or other shelters in or under which amphibians or reptiles may be found is prohibited.
(c) The use of winches, auto jacks, hydraulic jacks, crowbars and pry bars are prohibited.
(d) The use of gasoline or other potentially toxic substance is prohibited.
(e) The use of firearms, airguns or explosives is prohibited.
(f) The use of electrical or mechanical devices, or smokers is prohibited except as provided in Subsection (2)(b).
(g) The use of traps including pit fall traps, can traps, or funnel traps is prohibited.
(h) The use of fykes, seines, weirs, or nets of any description are prohibited except as provided in Subsection (2)(b).
(2)(a) Any logs, rocks, or other objects turned over or moved must be replaced in their original position.
(b) Dip nets less than 24 inches in diameter, snake sticks, and lizard nooses may be used.


Source web page: https://wildlife.utah.gov/rules-regulations/979-r657-53--amphibian-and-reptile-collection-importation-transportation-and-possession.html

Good hunting


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 Post subject: Re: QUESTION: Does Your State Ban Road Cruising?
PostPosted: May 30th, 2017, 5:25 pm 
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Joined: June 8th, 2010, 11:13 pm
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Yes, sorry for not clarifying in my original post--I'm looking for wildlife-specific statutes pertaining to picking up an animal on the road (or demonstrable lack of such statutes). Completely understood about the standard motor vehicle regulations and other "rules of the road."

I keep thinking the report will be ready "any day now," but man, there's so much data, I keep finding new ways to slice and dice it... 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: QUESTION: Does Your State Ban Road Cruising?
PostPosted: May 31st, 2017, 6:40 am 

Joined: March 18th, 2015, 7:06 pm
Posts: 35
How do you classify states which forbid picking up or otherwise interfering with a wild animal anywhere, roads obviously included? NJ is one, and there are others. If 'do not touch' laws are general why would roads have to be specifically mentioned?


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 Post subject: Re: QUESTION: Does Your State Ban Road Cruising?
PostPosted: May 31st, 2017, 8:44 am 
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ackee wrote:
How do you classify states which forbid picking up or otherwise interfering with a wild animal anywhere, roads obviously included? NJ is one, and there are others. If 'do not touch' laws are general why would roads have to be specifically mentioned?


If your state has a general "no touch" statute for wildlife, I need a reference to the statute. If I can't get a comprehensive list by the time I finish the rest of the analysis (I estimate another 20-30 hours to go), I may just have to go with a sampling of statutes across the country.

Yes, I'm farming this work out to the herpin' cloud, because field herpers are generally more familiar with the laws in their respective states and know where to look for said laws, than an outsider like me looking in what they THINK is the right section of the regulations without knowing about other applicable sections (e.g., in some states, some herps are covered under hunting regulations; in others, they're in the fishing regulations).


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 Post subject: Re: QUESTION: Does Your State Ban Road Cruising?
PostPosted: May 31st, 2017, 8:48 am 
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Joined: June 7th, 2010, 9:22 am
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As far as I know, there is nothing in the state of NV that prohibits road cruising or touching non-protected wildlife.

Bart


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 Post subject: Re: QUESTION: Does Your State Ban Road Cruising?
PostPosted: May 31st, 2017, 9:50 am 

Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm
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Steve Stocking recently did an article for SWCHR comparing some herping regs for SW states (AZ, UT, NV, and...? CA? I forget). He may be able to recall or easily locate answers for a few states.

cheers


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 Post subject: Re: QUESTION: Does Your State Ban Road Cruising?
PostPosted: May 31st, 2017, 3:38 pm 
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Location: south-central Texas
As I am currently researching New Mexico's herping regulations for an article in the SWCHR Bulletin, I am pleased to announce that New Mexico specifically mentions collection from roadways as a legal "means of take." Obviously, as the other poster mentioned and as common sense would should dictate, applicable traffic laws remain in effect during such activities.


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 Post subject: Re: QUESTION: Does Your State Ban Road Cruising?
PostPosted: May 31st, 2017, 5:23 pm 
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Jimi wrote:
Steve Stocking recently did an article for SWCHR comparing some herping regs for SW states (AZ, UT, NV, and...? CA? I forget). He may be able to recall or easily locate answers for a few states.


He wrote our article for NV, third in our ongoing series addressing each state in the SWCHR region of primary interest.


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 Post subject: Re: QUESTION: Does Your State Ban Road Cruising?
PostPosted: June 1st, 2017, 4:05 pm 

Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm
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Quote:
He wrote our article for NV, third in our ongoing series addressing each state in the SWCHR region of primary interest.


Ah right. I may be mis-remembering an earlier conversation when the concept - "the what" - was being floated, but "the how" had not quite been finished. Or, I may just be mis-remembering! I think I reviewed a draft of Steve's that did include a multi-state comparison. Maybe it's just Miller time...yep, that is definitely it. A dehydrated brain is a stupid brain.

Tom - I'm happy than NM makes it an explicitly legal method of take. While not at all necessary in our US legal system (phew!!!) it does clarify things. I wonder, since it's an explicit method of take, would it thus broaden the scope of probable cause? Could you be searched, or asked for a license, if you were cruising but had no hook, tongs, buckets or bags?

cheers


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 Post subject: Re: QUESTION: Does Your State Ban Road Cruising?
PostPosted: June 2nd, 2017, 3:01 am 
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Jimi wrote:
I wonder, since it's an explicit method of take, would it thus broaden the scope of probable cause? Could you be searched, or asked for a license, if you were cruising but had no hook, tongs, buckets or bags?


You could be stopped for a number of things, by a number of different agencies. I've been stopped many more times by Border Patrol than game wardens when cruising, because statistically, someone driving slowly near the border at night is more likely to be making a pickup or dropoff of drugs or citizens of other countries than simply looking for neat animals.


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 Post subject: Re: QUESTION: Does Your State Ban Road Cruising?
PostPosted: March 31st, 2018, 8:08 pm 
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Joined: August 19th, 2014, 8:31 pm
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Location: North Providence, RI
chris_mcmartin wrote:
Jimi wrote:
I wonder, since it's an explicit method of take, would it thus broaden the scope of probable cause? Could you be searched, or asked for a license, if you were cruising but had no hook, tongs, buckets or bags?


You could be stopped for a number of things, by a number of different agencies. I've been stopped many more times by Border Patrol than game wardens when cruising, because statistically, someone driving slowly near the border at night is more likely to be making a pickup or dropoff of drugs or citizens of other countries than simply looking for neat animals.


I was searching for a post on this exact issue. I'll be in NM this summer, and planning some days in the Rodeo area. Wondering how current climate is for road cruising back roads in the Rodeo-Porta
l area, since so far south. We are a mom and teenage son, if that helps.
(Also, btw, no rules prohibiting removing a herp from the road in RI, but be careful, someone might crash into you).


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 Post subject: Re: QUESTION: Does Your State Ban Road Cruising?
PostPosted: April 1st, 2018, 8:26 am 

Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm
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Quote:
I'll be in NM this summer, and planning some days in the Rodeo area. Wondering how current climate is for road cruising back roads in the Rodeo-Porta
l area, since so far south.


Great, come on out, you'll love it. That specific area has plenty of BP due to the proximity of the border, but, due to its popularity with visiting birders and herpers, plus its little buzzing community of "artsy retirees, etc" I seriously doubt you will get approached by BP for a closer look. They'll just be speeding by (and I mean speeding!), or pulled over waiting for something. Head east 30-40 miles OTOH and you can have all the face time you want! There, in that quiet, quiet country, you'd stick out and attract their attention. My experience, anyway. They're nice enough, and professional, but...that's probably not how you want to spend your precious vacation time.

The research center in Portal hosts an array of courses and conferences. Depending on your tastes, you may want to jigger your timing to coincide with, or avoid, a gaggle of (for example...) academic herpetologists and students. More searchers = more stuff found, and if you are not accustomed to "the big lonely" having some people around might be more comfortable. But it can slow things down at the cafe, fill up the rooms and campsites, etc. Just something to consider.

Oh yeah, finally - as of a couple years ago, NM required a hunting license for herping, and a "habitat stamp" for hunting public lands - BLM and USFS. Last I bought them myself you could get a 3-day nonresident license for $55, and the stamp was $5. You must check the current regs though. Tom Lott (see his post this string) did an article in SWCHR Bulletin about the legalities of herping NM, you could start there - if you start from scratch you'll find it's not very well explained online by the agency. If you fly into El Paso instead of Tucson you can (probably will...) drive through Las Cruces and Deming which both have WalMarts (where you can buy hunting licenses & habitat stamps, as well as all your necessary road-trip supplies). I assume you're flying...but, you did mention "being out for the suimmer" so perhaps you'll have your own car (and a full-year license already in-hand). Just trying to be helpful...pardon any unwarranted assumptions.

Good hunting!


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 Post subject: Re: QUESTION: Does Your State Ban Road Cruising?
PostPosted: April 1st, 2018, 9:47 am 
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Location: North Providence, RI
Ok thank you, thanks for letting me know about NM herping regs. Couldn't really find much out there. And yes, we are driving out there, but that is part of the fun. (also what does


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 Post subject: Re: QUESTION: Does Your State Ban Road Cruising?
PostPosted: April 1st, 2018, 7:39 pm 

Joined: June 10th, 2010, 6:59 pm
Posts: 51
There are no restrictions on road cruising in Missouri.


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 Post subject: Re: QUESTION: Does Your State Ban Road Cruising? ... ariz
PostPosted: April 2nd, 2018, 2:53 pm 
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Chris, you may have open a pandoras box w/ this one ... like so many things poikliothermic, Az like to have it both ways, yes its legal & no its not! We have a fair chase "rule" ( rules are commission orders not state statues) & 1 of many states that wildlife may not be taken w/ the aid of a motor vehicle ( i wrote a duck hunter a ticket 1 time chasing ducks w/ his friggn boat!) & have nabbed a coupla handfulls of quail/deer & pronghorn hunters doing likewise.
But heres another az head shaker; you can light up a snake on the road w/ your fog lamps or even a police style spotlight ... but some of our boneheads have written tickets to herpers for shining a simple flashlight out the window at our legless friends. Why? because another "rule" states the light must be attached to the vehicle, a throwback to the daze when spotlighters (biggame poachers mostly) used the old q-beam handheld lights.
I dont know if these rules are still in place or not & don't have time nor inclination to research them, but someone more interested might google " ARS title 17" and "arizona game and fish rules for taking wildlife" & update my comments.
I'm pleased the traffic angle has caught this thread tho. because we had as i recall a pair of young people killed a number of years ago swerving into oncoming traffic ...just to avoid a snake : {
& for those that like to party while cruising, understand road cruisers look like very drunk drivers & should expect field sobriety tests when pulled over. B safe / & try to play by at least 1 set of rules, & in any case do the "right thing" regardless. rxr

edit statute


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 Post subject: Re: QUESTION: Does Your State Ban Road Cruising?
PostPosted: May 18th, 2018, 9:25 pm 
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.. so it looks like this done got "run over" chris ... fact is ; in any state on a paved public rd. rode croozing is gonna be unreasonable & prudent speed after dark ... specially to a trooper needing to hit his toaster quota ... again ... or mebbe its 2x or thrice .... i suggest ewetok2me b4 you go off doing surveys ... oxo


from my files ...


OK legal begals, against my better druthers..let me rise to the bait...

This is a grey area, it is not black & white. While rigid personalities crave clarity, the law is so often not clear. But understand "Road cruising" is not illegal in AZ.
But first understand, you don't need to be in violation of a law to get a ticket & be convicted, we do afterall, live in an imperfect world.

You can't take wildlife with the aid of a vehicle, AZ law prohibits it. Ok lets disect this, when does "take" occur (most of you do not know the definition of "take" & I refer you to the AGFD regulations to get a somewhat nebulous definition of it...ie what is it "to pursue")? Obviously every hunter that drives to their hunting area enables their "take" with the use of a vehicle, yet they are not in violation of this rule, therefore one can be actively engaged as well as disengaged in pursuit, while participating in the general hunting activity (another example, while in camp you have disengaged from "take").

The Enforcement Directive (these are available to the public) pertaining to vehicle enforcement operations (offroad vehicle hunting is not addressed here) is (or was), if the shooter shoots from the vehicle or from the maintained portion of the road, or shoots across the roadway...they get hammered. If they exit the vehicle and shoot from the shoulder away from the road....no arrest; despite the fact that they used the vehicle to get into a position to "take".
Therefore using this E.D.; a herp hunter who does a driveby snatch of a live snake w/o exiting the vehicle should be hammered (this manouver is especially hard to do from a 4x4 truck!). One who exits the vehicle and collects by hand is legal. Cowboy types who road cruise (theres lots of this happening, believe it or not) need to "chouse" the snake off the roadway (during daylight), before killing it w/ a firearm. Clubbing it in the roadway though is legal.

"Take" implys wildlife, not wild-dead, so my roadcruising for DOR feeder snakes is not "take" (though you need a license to subsequently transport the carcasses!). I have stopped any number of folks cruising for arachnids, these legally are not "take" either.

The proscription against road hunting was never intended to regulate herp hunters, it was a safety & fair chase issue involving game & guns. It is interesting that most Game Rangers treat it this way, yet many will readily enforce the "using artificial light" rule which was enacted to reduce big game poaching at night & thus similarily had nothing to do w/ herps. Mature officers will focus on license, species, and baglimits. Biologically there is no issue as a herp that crosses a well traveled roadway is doomed sooner or later.

Herp hunters should be aware that their are a host of traffic laws they can potentially violate if they aren't careful; leaving an unattended vehicle on a roadway, straddling the center line etc. When traffic comes up behind you, either speed up or exit the roadway safely. All cops observing you are going to stop you assuming you're a righteous DUI. Keeping your movements slow, your hands in sight, possesion of the appropriate license and finally a reasonable demeanor are advised.

If during a stop, you are not treated as a valued customer, proper documentation of the event is appropriate along with a letter to the agency director.

Cheers, John Gunn

Subj: [Fwd: Clarification on legal issues]
Date: 10/29/00 11:47:01 AM US Mountain Standard Time
From: [email protected] (Hans F. Koenig)
To: [email protected] (John Gunn)



--------------------
John-

Missed you at the meeting on Tuesday. Had you been there, you would have

heard the complete discussion, not just an opinion of one of the
attendees.
Most, if not all, of your points were discussed by Ray or myself. Mike
Demlong also attended. In all, we were there for 21/2 hours. I enjoyed
visiting with the folks after the talk.

I am forwarding an e-mail that I sent to Kerby regarding his comments on
the issue. Note that he started the discussion this Summer by reporting
that a friend had received a citation from Jimmy Simmons for road
hunting and spotlighting
when in fact, his friend was cited only for spotlighting.

Just completed comments for Stebbins on his Field Guide. Hope they make
the deadline for the revision due out next year (?).

Looking forward to putting my stuff down for Winter. How are your
Ringnecks fairing?

Regards.

Hans




--------------------
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">

John-

Missed you at the meeting on Tuesday. Had you been there, you would
have

heard the complete discussion, not just an opinion of one of the attendees.
Most, if not all, of your points were discussed by Ray or myself. MikeDemlong also attended. In all, we were there for 21/2hours. I enjoyed visiting with the folks after the talk.
I am forwarding an e-mail that I sent to Kerby regarding his comments on the issue. Note that he started the discussion this Summer by reporting that a friend had received a citation from Jimmy Simmons for road huntingand spotlighting
when in fact, his friend was cited only for spotlighting.
Just completed comments for Stebbins on his Field Guide. Hope they makethe deadline for the revision due out next year (?).
Looking forward to putting my stuff down for Winter. How are your Ringnecksfairing?
Regards.
Hans
&nbsp;
&nbsp;
&nbsp;

--------------------
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 13:40:05 -0600
From: "Hans F. Koenig" <[email protected]>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
CC: Ritt Enderson <[email protected]>
Subject: Clarification on legal issues
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi, Kerby-

I wanted to clarify the road hunting issues I discussed at the AHA
meeting
last Tuesday. Your post in the AHA Forum 10/25/00 gave me the impression
that you had some concerns about some of the things that I talked about.

While discussing the option of changing the current regulations to
permit road hunting for herps, I did not state that the AHA should not
make an issue of the existing laws or Rules. I did, however, point out
that Arizona's highways and byways were not intended for herp hunting
activities like road cruising. As a consequence, agencies such as the
Arizona Department of Transportation and the Department of Public Safety
(DPS) might oppose these changes. I did not mention County Sheriffs in
that statement. As I am sure you are aware, the DPS already has the
authority per A.R.S. Title 28 to issue citations for hindering or
obstructing traffic, whether one is hunting or not.

My slides displaying the regulations regarding road hunting and the
subsequent discussions hopefully clarified the current laws/rules
pertaining to road hunting and how they are currently enforced by the
Department. When enforcing or interpreting the law, one must still take
into consideration other factors which may "gray" the "black & white"
you mention. Among those factors are the letter of the law and the
actual intent of the law. Herp hunting,especially road cruising,was not
a popular past time when most wildlife laws were written. These laws
were mainly directed at small game including waterfowl and big game
species.

My statement regarding inquiries from out of state hunters about road
cruising
was in reference to the confusion and controversy resulting from the
internet posts on this topic. It had nothing to do with lost revenue
from license sales.

I would be willing to discuss these and other management issues you may
have on the phone at your convenience.

Sincerely,

Hans


& by the way ; gunn : brother Hans is now dead so hes tell'n nothing moe ... : { RIP Bro


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