Why You Dont Collect

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WSTREPS
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by WSTREPS » August 14th, 2016, 4:05 pm

*On another note completely but something to consider is I feel the scientists who do participate in FHF have been, and continue to be very gracious in professional restraint on many topics here where members have revealed gaps or misunderstandings in knowledge - in subjects where scientists conceivably understand the subject at hand down to a cellular level im sure quite often, yet; either explain gently or graciously move on without continued comment where instead perhaps such commentary might embarrass a poster.

Thats a testament to intellectual security.
That might be true in some cases but there's another side that doesn't display much in the way of professional restraint or intellectual security. I have seen or should say demonstrated the games and dishonest lengths scientist will go to, when trying defend their work or the work of their "friend's". When that work is shown to be at best incredibly incompetent, all the way to flat out scientific fraud.


I have been called everything from paranoid to a misogynist, had my family insulted, been sent bulling and threatening messages , have been asked to help out with scientific research papers, papers that would a have been used to hurt private individuals and been sent privy information, asked that it be kept secret (I obliged in spite of the backstabbing ways of the individual that sent it to me) etc .

All in response to my unabridged appraisal's of the lousy work, motives and benefits behind the production of said work found primarily in the academic feeding frenzy that has become invasive science. No one demographic can be judged as a whole good or bad. And no estimate / number can be assigned to the percentage of good of bad in any profession. What can be looked at is the demonstrable benefits and the likely hood of getting away with something in a given situation. From there its a matter of applied knowledge and insight when inspecting a person's work and judging a person's integrity. Possessing the necessary ingredients to competently complete the process of reaching informed conclusions. I have it in spades.

A fitting tribute to Mike "Aqualung" Dorcas. John Goodman says it all at the 1:42 mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lribEONhqSI

Ernie Eison

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Jimi » August 15th, 2016, 2:30 pm

The brown tree snake is flourishing on Guam. There are as many tree snakes on the island today, causing just as much trouble as there was the day the government scientist were brought in to solve the problem. Nothing has changed.
Man, you keep missing the point. Containment is the strategy for Guam. Prevention is the strategy for everywhere else. Nobody has failed to reduce the number of snakes on Guam, because nobody has tried. It's too late. This is one of the lessons of invasive-species management. Prevention is pretty appealing, because eradication is almost always really hard, almost always really expensive, often involves making undesirable sacrifices of other stuff you care about, and sometimes is flat-out impossible. At that point you're stuck with containment, and sometimes suppression.

Also, it's simply untrue to say that impacts to Guam are as bad as they were in (say) 1985:
  • The snake-caused power outages aren't happening because the whole grid eventually was snake-hardened; the upgrades were facilitated by Guam's frequent disastrous typhoons, and also its increasing prevalence as a forward-deployment military base as other assets went offline, and novel or growing threats appear.

    The extinctions aren't ongoing because, well, there's almost nothing native left to go extinct or be extirpated.

    I don't know what's up with envenomations.
Containment ? Snakes are still hitching rides off the island.
Presumably at lower rates (snakes per ton of cargo, or per outbound ship, or whatever metric might exist) than before today's containment programs were employed. It's a hard thing to measure, that must be obvious to anyone. What is known is that a lot of snakes are getting caught in the traps around traffic facilities on Guam, a lot of snakes are being pulled off fences in nocturnal perimeter searches of those facilities, snakes are being found in outbound cargo at these facilities by searcher dogs and people, and on rare occasions a BTS is found at an off-island airport in e.g. Texas or Spain. So yeah, there's still some leakage, but presumably it's gone from a flow to a slow drip. Propagule pressure must be way down. And sometimes that's probably enough - you might not have to get every single one, just almost all of them, with containment (this is another place eradication is HARD - you do have to get every last one).
Not to mention the brown tree snake was found in massive numbers on Guam prior to all these wonderful containment advancement's. This with quick and easy transportation leaving to a destination of their choice at anytime. But no other populations sprung up ?
This is a reasonable question, and I do not know the answer. I'm sure I cannot suggest any answers that will satisfy you Ernie, but maybe you can demonstrate some intellectual honesty and give them a fair thought. Anyway, I'm thinking several things:
  • it took about 40 years for BTS to become recognized as a problem on Guam, and even at its peak abundance most Guamanians had never once seen a snake (they're sneaky); maybe BTS did actually get someplace and get established, and they're just now building up and will become discovered soon?

    global trade and travel have increased dramatically - it is simply not the case that cargo and passenger volumes back then were comparable to today; also, back then, far more travel & transport was military, which typically stays at 10,000 to avoid the need for pressurization, which leads to cold flights - could this have killed a lot of the outbound snakes? (many outbound containers nowadays are heat-sterilized by leaving them intentionally in the sun until they reach a predetermined temp x time "dose" - same principle, working in the other direction)

    it's hard to start a new population, typically requiring quite a number of individuals, typically delivered over the course of several to many events; tons of snakes probably left, and many may have arrived alive, but too far apart in time and space to have become a breeding population
The question is with planes, boats, jet skis, military cargo coming and going from the brown tree snakes natural range and going everywhere unchecked everyday. How come no other invasions have occurred?
Again, fair question. Same game:
  • I just don't know that there's much cargo, residential relocation, etc coming & going out of the Solomon Islands, the island of New Guinea (either PNG or IJ), or tropical Australia, to potential recipient sites like Micronesian or Polynesian islands.

    And maybe there is already a population that got started, and nobody knows yet. There are some places that generate a lot of snake sightings, that are close to Guam, but where the snakes haven't been found (yet?). I'm thinking Rota, Saipan, and Tinian in particular.

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WSTREPS
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by WSTREPS » August 15th, 2016, 6:07 pm

Nobody has failed to reduce the number of snakes on Guam, because nobody has tried.
In recognition of the need to control brown tree snake populations, the United States Congress incorporated a section into the Nonindigenous Aquatic Nuisance Prevention and Control Act of 1990 authorizing such a program:


"To meet these objectives, the BTS Control Committee proposes the following tasks be undertaken:

• reduce brown tree snake populations over large geographic areas on Guam; (Reducing brown tree snake populations throughout Guam is a primary task as defined in the act)
• eliminate brown tree snakes from the transportation network;
• eradicate snakes in recently established populations;
• control snakes to reduce predation on endangered species and other native animals;
• control snakes to reduce human contacts resulting in snakebites and emotional trauma;
• control snakes to reduce electrical outages and damage to equipment;


Current population estimates are as high as they have ever been. Zoologist Gabe Buckley estimate's roughly 2,745,400 brown tree snakes on Guam. It would be a sound argument to state that the government control plan has been a success . They have created a successful management program based around selective culling that has resulted in long term and sustainable large scale funding.

The snake-caused power outages aren't happening
Power outages are happening ever few days due to snakes as per the USGS, Gordon Rodda retired but still hangs around as an advisor / “emeritus” volunteer. A bit more from the experts,
It is probably impossible to eliminate all brown tree snakes from the island of Guam. The best we can hope for is a strong reduction in the snake population that would allow the native species to strike a balance with their new chief predator.
Yeah, that's sounds great by the way the Brooklyn bridge is for sale ,,,,,,,,,,,,Then there's this,
it's hard to start anew population, typically requiring quite a number of individuals, typically delivered over the course of several to many events; tons of snakes probably left, and many may have arrived alive, but too far apart in time and space to have become a breeding population
Not according to
Willson, J. D., M. E. Dorcas and R. W. Snow. 2010. Identifying Plausible Scenarios for the Establishment of Invasive Burmese Pythons (Python molurus) in Southern Florida.
Invasions
In this paper various values were used to generate scientific-looking graphs. Resulting in six plausible scenarios for the introduction and establishment of the reproducing Burmese python population in south Florida. The winner,
We conclude that the most parsimonious scenarios for establishment of pythons in the region involve the release of a relatively small number of founders in the southern portion of the Everglades prior to 1985.
Without going into every mathematical detail and the derived specious conclusions, They essentially state that some pet keeper wandered 15 miles into the everglades, into an inaccessible mangrove swamp thru waist deep muck and saw grass. To let loose a few baby Burmese pythons. And that's the origin of Florida pythons. WTF. Even a 12 year old would find that hard to believe. D'oh

The rest of the hopping around in the rebuttal to my comments is all speculation and blah blah, that I'm even to bored of to go into. Unless forced,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Its a bummer I couldn't work in something about molecular phylogeny to make Jeroen happy.


Ernie Eison

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Jimi » August 15th, 2016, 9:38 pm

Here's the link for anyone interested, to the 1996 BTS control plan: http://www.anstaskforce.gov/Species%20p ... 20Plan.pdf

What Ernie could have offered was more context:
In recognition of this threat, the United States Congress included a section in the
Nonindigenous Aquatic Nuisance Prevention and Control Act of 1990 that authorizes a
cooperative program to control the brown tree snake outside of its historic range.
Representatives of the Departments of Agriculture, Commerce, Defense, and the Interior;
the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands; the Territory of Guam; and the
State of Hawaii formed the Brown Tree Snake Control Committee in May 1993 to
develop an integrated pest management approach that would:
• reduce existing brown tree snake populations over large geographic areas on Guam;
• prevent the spread of brown tree snakes to other Pacific islands and mainland areas;
• eradicate or contain new populations as soon as detected;
(etc in an even longer list than he provided)
A clip from the ANPCA:
"The [Aquatic Nuisance Species] Task Force shall . . . undertake a comprehensive,
environmentally sound program in coordination with regional, territorial, State and
local entities to control the brown tree snake (Boiga irregularis) in Guam and other
areas where the species is established outside of its historic range."
See that word "shall"? It's more forceful than "will". More directive - Thou SHALL. Ernie makes it sound like a "feddies gone wild" bacchanal, like they're just living it up doing whatever they like. Lemme tell ya, if that was the case the work wouldn't be happening on Guam. God, that's hilarious. Ever been there? Pictures lie, OK? Ha ha ha. It's not a great place to visit, let alone live and work.

Here's another hand-picked excerpt from the 1996 plan (a couple pages after the task list):
Current techniques offer no known method for ridding Guam of its well-established
snake population. Research to develop control technologies that are applicable over broad
geographic areas is needed; but the present focus on prevention of further dispersal and
rapid eradication of new populations may also lead to new tools and techniques that can
assist Guam in controlling its brown tree snakes. The importance of a long-term,
coordinated effort toward brown tree snake control cannot be overstated; neither can the
importance of beginning now.
I dunno - doesn't look like much of a boondoggle to me. Looks like Congress authorized (AKA "assigned" - you don't get to say "no") a bunch of federal agencies to work together with 3 state-level governments on a regional problem. The assigned group said "this is pretty gnarly, it's gonna take time and money and hard work and cooperation and...". Twenty years and a lot of money have been spent. Containment techniques and technologies are pretty good. Coordination & logistics are always going to be hard - they're much less money problems than people problems, intercultural problems. But are the program's results better than they would have been without the effort? I think so. And here's the kicker - so do the guys who write the checks. Know how I know? They keep funding it. The program still exists. This isn't the military-industrial complex that has constituents - and jobs - in every single Congressional district. The BTS control guys have to go make their case every year before the Appropriations committees. If you haven't actually tried to get money out of Congress you might think it's easy. Nothing could be farther from the truth. And as far as cutting spending - it is far easier for them to cut little $5-10 million programs, than a billion here or there. They snuff tiny little things like the BTS program every year. But this one survives. Why? I'm thinking because it looks like a smart investment, not an idiotic expenditure and a dishonest enterprise, as Ernie characterizes it.

cheers

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Jeroen Speybroeck
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck » August 16th, 2016, 6:01 am

WSTREPS wrote:Its a bummer I couldn't work in something about molecular phylogeny to make Jeroen happy.
I'd rather hear you talk about what happened on 5/25/2015. :P
For what it's worth, I've learned from what others have replied to your posts, so thanks for that. Guam is an interesting case to learn from, for sure, even though I don't see a awful lot of relevance to this topic in it. I (still) believe you are knowledgeable, I just don't get the, let's say, anger.

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by VanAR » August 16th, 2016, 1:34 pm

I dunno - doesn't look like much of a boondoggle to me. Looks like Congress authorized (AKA "assigned" - you don't get to say "no") a bunch of federal agencies to work together with 3 state-level governments on a regional problem. The assigned group said "this is pretty gnarly, it's gonna take time and money and hard work and cooperation and...". Twenty years and a lot of money have been spent. Containment techniques and technologies are pretty good. Coordination & logistics are always going to be hard - they're much less money problems than people problems, intercultural problems. But are the program's results better than they would have been without the effort? I think so. And here's the kicker - so do the guys who write the checks. Know how I know? They keep funding it. The program still exists. This isn't the military-industrial complex that has constituents - and jobs - in every single Congressional district. The BTS control guys have to go make their case every year before the Appropriations committees. If you haven't actually tried to get money out of Congress you might think it's easy. Nothing could be farther from the truth. And as far as cutting spending - it is far easier for them to cut little $5-10 million programs, than a billion here or there. They snuff tiny little things like the BTS program every year. But this one survives. Why? I'm thinking because it looks like a smart investment, not an idiotic expenditure and a dishonest enterprise, as Ernie characterizes it.
Well said.
I (still) believe you are knowledgeable, I just don't get the, let's say, anger.
The anger is pretty simple to understand. The resulting controls/legislation on python ownership have hit a lot of people who breed/sell snakes for a living pretty hard. It only makes sense that those (the vast majority) who have been doing things right and aboveboard all along feel like they're being persecuted post-hoc for the mistakes of others. I totally get that, and I kinda agree that the restrictions are a bit like closing the barn door once the horse has escaped. The fear-mongering that goes on with snakes also isn't helped by the whole situation.

All that aside, I think all of these arguments that some breeders are using (exemplified here) are focused in the wrong direction. Attacking the science and claiming that there somehow isn't a problem, or that it isn't as bad as the science suggests, makes them look as foolish and money-biased as those coal mine owners who claim climate change is a myth. So, they turn that bias around and claim that the scientists are really the money-biased party rather than themselves, who have a clear financial stake in the matter. That only makes them look like paranoid conspiracy theorists. It hurts their case rather than helps it.

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by stlouisdude » August 16th, 2016, 3:55 pm

I believe there was also a paper published critiquing some of the claims used to justify the ban. The python incident is unfortunate and claims that Burmese Pythons could live in DC can't help but make even the most inexperienced reptile keeper laugh and think the authors are smoking some really strong stuff, but I just can't make the leap from that to all scientists are corrupt or idiots. I don't understand why what one scientist publishes has any bearing on the honesty or competence of every other scientist in the world. By that standard, reptile keepers would be in pretty big trouble... just look at some of the $h1t on youtube... but again I don't see how that applies to any other reptile keeper on earth. Critiquing the python research should be pretty easy, it's a target rich environment from what little I bothered to read... but beyond that a generalization of all scientific research feels a little like mudslinging... and that makes me wonder if Ernie really believes that most scientists are really corrupt or if it's just a few he takes issue with? I've only seen Ernie critique 3-4 researchers so hopefully a clarification on that issue would relieve some of the tension that might result from any misunderstandings of where the blame is being laid and to what extent. I really haven't seen or read anything that makes me think Ernie is anti-scientist, certainly he is against certain scientists, but I'll let him speak for himself on the point.

If we can all agree that the problem is limited to specific incidents, the next step would be how to most effectively address them or were they already properly addressed? As I stated earlier, a believe a paper critiquing the research was already published and the python ban is on its last leg in the court system likely to be overturned within a year. Everyone who wants to put hands on reptiles is in for a fight long term, with zoos and reptile keepers being the hardest hit, but there's no one the animal rights nutters aren't coming after and with the separation of urbanites, animals, and how the food gets to their table growing, the numbers aren't looking very favorable for any of us IMO. The more they get us to turn on each other, the quicker they can pick one group off and move on to the next.

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by WSTREPS » August 16th, 2016, 5:09 pm

Containment techniques and technologies are pretty good. Coordination & logistics are always going to be hard - they're much less money problems than people problems, intercultural problems. But are the program's results better than they would have been without the effort? I think so. And here's the kicker - so do the guys who write the checks. Know how I know? They keep funding it.
The guys who write the checks don't know anything about the boondoggle that is Guam, brown tree snakes etc. They are clueless if anything has worked, bombed (pun only slightly intended ) or anything in between. They know what their being told and that is we need money to save money, if these snakes get to Hawaii they will cause hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars in power outages. Scientist tagged the tree snake introduction and the problem on the US military without any proof. How convenient, you caused it so you should pay for it. Its every bit as biologically likely and even more so that the snakes were brought to the island by the Japanese. That possibility never whispered by anyone receiving brown tree snake money. Not very honest or scientific.

Continued funding is not always the mark of a projects goal oriented success or progress. My post on the high impact paper effect or as its been called the “currency of fame” in science. Went into explaining how "inventive" scientist use the production of these papers (high impact does not equal high quality work) papers to both initiate funding for high dollar projects as well as continued funding .

Impact factors are a key element to evaluate the research output of an academic institution. This is important to justify current and future funding by the government.

High impact factors lead to more public funding in academia There is no doubt that one or more high impact factor papers will increase the chances to get future funding. Funding is often given on the assumption that “previous performances predict future performances”.

In the case of Guam and the tree snake. There has been a constant flow of high profile research projects, the accompanying papers and media attention. This is very influential especially when placing the Hawaii power outage scare at the forefront . I could go into the in's and out's of it deeper, but what's
important about the crap going on with invasive species scientists, the fraud behind the science can be found in my post. If you don't buy what I'm saying , fair enough. That bothers me as much as a cloudy day.
I from that to all scientists are corrupt or idiots. just can't make the leap
There's no need to make that leap.

The scientist I call out for their misbehavior most often are the core group of people involved with the horrifically and intentionally error filled python research papers and subsequent media hype. Most have all been part of the brown tree snake debacle and received funding from it. At the very least they have close and demonstrable ties. Its a tight nit family. Certain scientist are the go to guys, and sometimes they get there by pulling the wool over everyone's eyes. In the end that doesn't matter. What does count is that now their in a position to do this,

" If you can come up with a projects that generate millions if not hundreds of millions of dollars in funding, your going to be a popular guy around the water cooler. At any institution and make many friends."

At this point when junk science wins a lot of people win. A good scientist that comes in and produces work that might put the breaks on that isn't looked at as a good scientist by their peers / project associates , their seen as a whistle blower.

The anger is pretty simple to understand. The resulting controls/legislation on python ownership have hit a lot of people who breed/sell snakes for a living pretty hard.

All that aside, I think all of these arguments that some breeders are using (exemplified here) are focused in the wrong direction. Attacking the science and claiming that there somehow isn't a problem,
What is this guy talking about?

I addressed , debunked the whole Ernie's angry about the python ban crap completely in the past. Do a search.

There is nothing "angry" about calling out junk science and producing the black and white evidence to back it up .

The resulting squirming, odd comments, various spin doctoring efforts on the part of the scientist directly involved with the work demonstrated as putrid or their grandstanding friends comes as no surprise or detriment.

Again I'm not going to take the time to correct every misnomer produced by every straw grasped at. I'm willing to discuss everything and anything ..........................................but be serious...........

Ernie Eison

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Jeroen Speybroeck
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck » August 16th, 2016, 11:59 pm

deleted

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Brian Hubbs
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Brian Hubbs » August 17th, 2016, 10:00 am

Yeah Ernie, what's the arrest thing about? Did you win or lose? Arrest reports don't give very good details. Can you tell us the gist of it?

and Jeroen: Just because someone gets arrested for a misdemeanor doesn't mean they did anything sinister or that they were even guilty of anything. I'd like to hear Ernie's side of the story too.

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by s_stocking » August 17th, 2016, 10:20 am

Wow....and a felony.....

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Jimi » August 17th, 2016, 10:26 am

I'd like to hear Ernie's side of the story too.
I'd rather we respected his right to privacy. Despite anything that's been exchanged here in the recent or distant past, I find the invocation of mug shot etc pretty distasteful. It brings to mind "villagers with pitchforks" and I want no part of it. A race to the bottom is a loser's race.

My $.02 anyway.

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck » August 17th, 2016, 11:26 am

Not on a witch hunt. Just curious about who's behind the name and what the animal related charge is about, but I now think I maybe should drop it and I apologize for what seems bad taste indeed. I may also lack insight in your (or any) legal system, indeed, which is why I probably would not consider online information as private.

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Brian Hubbs » August 17th, 2016, 11:57 am

If you look hard enough you can probably also find a mug shot of me, from 1994 when I was arrested for buying snakes from an undercover warden (You don't need to post it here, though :lol: ) . I pled guilty, paid my fine and that was the last time I ever bought snakes from anybody... :lol: And now...22 years later, I'm a living icon of the herp world and an obscure semi-famous author...wow... :roll:

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck » August 17th, 2016, 12:07 pm

Actually, I spent a night in a Greek jail and was brought before a judge because of... looking for fire-bellied toads too close to the Turkish border (even though the same place was packed with bbq-ing people 6 hrs earlier). Luckily, Greek police live in the stone age, so my mug shot only exists somewhere in a dusty pile of paper. Would love to see it some day, to be honest.

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck » August 17th, 2016, 12:11 pm

Removed the link, btw.

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Jimi » August 17th, 2016, 12:30 pm

And now...22 years later, I'm a living icon of the herp world and an obscure semi-famous author...
that's how it should be - minor deviation, you paid, you're done, welcome back citizen
but I now think I maybe should drop it and I apologize for what seems bad taste indeed
didn't mean to come off like a hard case, just...I dunno, sometimes I hate the stupid internet
If you look hard enough you can probably also find a mug shot of me, from 1994
that's why sometimes I hate the stupid internet - no peace, no privacy, it's a troll's delight
I probably would not consider online information as private
oh, legally speaking I seriously doubt it is private; but I think the various legal systems around the world are having a hard time keeping up with technological and cultural changes, and I also think individuals can exercise their own judgement as to what is right or wrong, aside from what the law says is permissible (all sorts of stuff is legal - but do you want to do that?)

I also sometimes think rapid cultural change occurs without consideration of the damage caused; animals on constant public display often exhibit anxiety symptoms and other pathologies
I spent a night in a Greek jail
that sounds unpleasant; but I bet a Turkish jail would be worse! ha ha ha

cheers

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck » August 17th, 2016, 1:07 pm

Jimi wrote:didn't mean to come off like a hard case
You didn't. No need to apologize for being more civil and polite than me. ;)

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by WSTREPS » August 17th, 2016, 2:49 pm

Not on a witch hunt. Just curious about who's behind the name and what the animal related charge is about, but I now think I maybe should drop it and I apologize for what seems bad taste indeed. I may also lack insight in your (or any) legal system, indeed, which is why I probably would not consider online information as private.

Yeah Ernie, what's the arrest thing about? Did you win or lose? Arrest reports don't give very good details. Can you tell us the gist of it?
Fair enough. I don think its very private besides it might be the only time Jeroen's research yields a useful result. This was one long and crazy story, things could not have been more off the wall.

The gist of it, No big deal, except for the lousy picture ( sorry it was a long day ) and red has always been a bad color for me. I'm as open as it gets.

All the charges were dropped with a little bonus against my wishes. You cannot have a trial without charge's.

I wanted a trial. My evidence was cogent. The arresting officers lies were as black and white as can be. The proof presented making me innocent was indisputable. Having the charges dropped did not do me the same justice as being found innocent. Not to mention I love putting BS artist on the spot. It was a disappointing end to a crazy series of events. The tables were certainly turned but still no justice. The state ended up paying for 90% of the ordeal (its complicated) but so what? I should be happy with what went down and how because a few bucks got thrown my way ? That's not winning in my book.

The only real criminal in this was the arresting officer who was caught in multiple irrefutable lies. Talk about a joke. What I repeatedly got from everyone was essentially , yeah we know but that's their job to make arrest.

To make it clear there were two pit bulls involved from the same household, the arrest is centered around only the one I could catch, the other (the leader) ran off.

The felony theft charge was for refusing to give back to the owner a Pit bull that had come onto my property and killed some of my animal's, until I tried to contact animal control . After not being able to contact animal control I told the dogs owner to get his dog. The dispute between myself and the dogs owner lasted all of ten minutes . The trouble was instigated by the people I had talked to while looking for the dogs owner.

Prior to contacting the dogs owner. I had to run all over looking for this guy. The only contact information was a dog tag with the wrong Ph, and a name. These dogs had been running wild for almost a year and killed many animals on my street. All of the people involved have had a lot of animal control issues. An investigation of complaints in my neighborhood produced 800 in a two year period. Not one call made by me or against me. The dog in question disappeared a few weeks later after making his last run and was shot and killed from what I was told.

The rest of what was involved with the arrest was Padding (making it look legit) based on colorful and factious statements coached and bullied from witnesses. The cops game was made easy in some respect's by the fact , The people who I had talked to while looking for the dogs owner, all told me multiple lies (they were all hiding things ) they all had a lot of reason (discovered later) to make me the bad guy to cover their own ass's . All were closely related. One wasn't even a witness just a goofy chick that has a Pit Bull Breeding "business" down the street from me. There was some way out of left field statements made by some real operators (later I found out why). Street games. And I'm ok with all that. The arresting officer that's a different story. No one should be Ok with that,

That's about as much as I can say. I don't want to go into the names of who was involved and who said what. To be clear, I'm not saying I've been an angel my whole life , but scumbag crimes like I was charged with here. Not my style and no twelve years olds were ever involved.


Ernie Eison

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Jimi » August 17th, 2016, 3:33 pm

The arresting officers lies were as black and white as can be. The proof presented making me innocent was indisputable. Having the charges dropped did not do me the same justice as being found innocent. ... The only real criminal in this was the arresting officer who was caught in multiple irrefutable lies.
I have been in exactly that situation. Still got the arrest on my record, even though the bogus charges were dropped. Never got so much as a "sorry" from that county DA or that sheriff's department. Sons of bitches.

That half hour I mentioned losing in my "craziest Border Patrol story" post - I suspect the ancient arrest was part of the mighty blue-veiner those boys seemed to have for me. I think they reckoned I must have been guilty (in ~2010) of doing what I wasn't even guilty of back in 1990 or whenever the year was...

Makes me wonder if I could get the record expunged. I never looked into it. You might look into it. Those are a couple of dirtbag-looking charges.

cheers

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Brian Hubbs
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Brian Hubbs » August 17th, 2016, 5:48 pm

You're not a real herper unless you're arrested at least once on trumped up charges... :lol: 8-)

One of the charges against me was completely false and trumped up, but I pled guilty anyway to save time and money. The warden who made up that charge got his Instant Karma about 6 years later. I was very pleased at the time to hear about it, but now I don't care. It just doesn't pay to screw with Hubbs... :lol:

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by stlouisdude » August 17th, 2016, 7:57 pm

Where I grew up it was common practice to shoot stray dogs. Crazy that they would even arrest someone for protecting their property regardless of which property owner did it. They could be killing game birds, be unvaccinated, etc... I am dog lover for sure but not loose dogs of unknown health. I'd be more worried about the wild dogs than the person shooting them. Likewise seems nuts that we'd have a warden arresting someone for buying common snakes. What a waste of tax payer resources. Things like this make my head hurt.

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Kelly Mc » August 17th, 2016, 9:05 pm

Ive had some dogs in my life that were once "loose dogs of uncertain health" as part of their team of human providers. Most came from Mexico and one from Taiwan.

Their owners rock and so do they. Of course it takes more skill and patience than the average dog owner may have, but its worth it.

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck » August 17th, 2016, 11:08 pm

Not sure what you think you know about my research and its virtues, Ernie, but I'm scientist and as such evil by nature.

However, I thank you for your reply.
The felony theft charge was for refusing to give back to the owner a Pit bull that had come onto my property and killed some of my animal's, until I tried to contact animal control.
:shock: What kind of policing is that!? These stories are really strange to a (NW) European ear.

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Kelly Mc » August 17th, 2016, 11:31 pm

and to pinch off any mythologizing - no citizens boo hoo tax dollars were involved. just a variety of individuals who gave a f*.

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Jimi » August 18th, 2016, 11:34 am

What kind of policing is that!? These stories are really strange to a (NW) European ear.
The principal difference, as it has been told to me, is that in the US there are tens of thousands of individual law-enforcement agencies (Texas alone having something like 2500 I think), with the average total head-count being something like 5 or 6. So while there are some seriously professional outfits, mostly it's just a clown show. In Europe I understand there are fewer agencies, and they are larger and often less local. So they have a larger tax base, higher visibility, higher standards, etc, on average.

But again, in the US mainly you've got tiny little departments, with small tax bases (and low pay, weak training, lesser equipment etc etc), often a limited pool of potential job applicants, merely local visibility (until something blows up), etc. Small tax bases can lead to asset-forfeiture systems and other forms of "self-funding" (the need to hand out lots of speeding & parking tickets, etc). Anyway, when you combine this caliber of field staff, with a prosecuting (district attorney) system that virtually always involves elections, and a judicial system that often does too (this seems maniacal to me), and finally a whole lot of part-timer legislative bodies - it's no wonder "American justice" sounds like an oxymoron at times. It's really best to avoid interactions with the whole lot of them. Particularly the "tip of the spear", the field guys. If you can't avoid them, don't aggravate them. They can do stuff to you and get away with it.

Come back soon, ya hear? Ha ha. Really though, do.

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by stlouisdude » August 18th, 2016, 4:24 pm

Worth considering "small" does not always mean sitting around doing nothing. My brother worked for a sheriffs department and had to deal with tasers that shocked the arresting officer rather than the crook, safety gear that didn't fit, and situations where they or often just he were vastly outnumbered. All this for low pay and long hours. They did the best they could with limited resources but one has to understand that such situations often do not result in an officer who is pleasant to deal with or in the mood to put up with any crap.

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by VanAR » August 18th, 2016, 4:26 pm

But again, in the US mainly you've got tiny little departments, with small tax bases (and low pay, weak training, lesser equipment etc etc), often a limited pool of potential job applicants, merely local visibility (until something blows up), etc. Small tax bases can lead to asset-forfeiture systems and other forms of "self-funding" (the need to hand out lots of speeding & parking tickets, etc). Anyway, when you combine this caliber of field staff, with a prosecuting (district attorney) system that virtually always involves elections, and a judicial system that often does too (this seems maniacal to me), and finally a whole lot of part-timer legislative bodies - it's no wonder "American justice" sounds like an oxymoron at times. It's really best to avoid interactions with the whole lot of them. Particularly the "tip of the spear", the field guys. If you can't avoid them, don't aggravate them. They can do stuff to you and get away with it.
Agreed. In some small towns too once they realize you're not a local they can pretty much run you out if they choose, especially if they think you're doing something shady and don't believe that herping is at all a "legit" thing to do.

That said, I've been very lucky in my interactions with the majority of law enforcement in the US. Projecting an outwardly calm and polite manner (compliance, citizen!) helps enormously. Being white probably doesn't hurt in most locales, if you follow the news. Surprisingly, I've gotten out of far more speeding tickets than I've been issued, simply by being honest and polite. One time I could have easily gotten charged with reckless driving when I was hurrying to meet some friends herping early one morning. Cop asked where I was going in such a hurry, and I said "I'm sorry sir, I was just enjoying the open road and it got away from me a bit". He chuckled and said, "well, enjoy it a little slower". I'm sure had it been in a populated area the outcome would have been different too.

One other piece of advice, which may rankle politically- getting a concealed carry licence does wonders for one's interactions with law enforcement. I guess because they know you've gone through the FBI background checks, etc. and actually hand the card over to them upon being approached, as you're supposed to, it gives the first impression that you're fairly law-abiding to start with. I imagine it also helps them believe you aren't a potential threat to their own personal safety. That's just my experience in rural, southern areas anyway- the CCL instantly turned slightly tense situations into very relaxed, joking situations. I get that this is a controversial thing, and I personally struggle with my views on firearms, especially after living in Australia for 4 years, but if I moved back to the USA I'd get a CCL again in a heartbeat, just for this. The little bit of extra knowledge and training about how the US legal system works doesn't hurt, either. I don't know that I would actually even carry a gun ever, but would just get the CCL to have for these kinds of situations.

Anyway, that's way off-topic, so sorry for the digression.

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Kelly Mc » December 6th, 2016, 2:21 pm

Jeremy Wright wrote:Little bit off topic here but still relevant to the discussion and some information for you all. Out of curiosity I called a big online reptile store (not naming it) yesterday inquiring on how many field collected Arizona elegans and Rhinocheilus were available. I had seen their ads saying that they have almost all sizes available and discounts can be made for large or bulk orders. The man I spoke to on the phone didn't know the species I was talking about, and handed the phone to another man. I could just hear him say to the other employee "This dude on the phone is asking about some glossy or some snakes I don't we have" The other man responds "Oh yea, snakes from our last west trip?" And the guy responds, "I think so, he said glossy and long nosed or something." "Oh, yea okay. Let me talk to him."
After a chat with the new man he told me that he could arrange for a bulk order of over 100 Arizona and according to him, Rhinocheilus in the dozens. If this is true, I wonder at what rate / number collecting occurs. I asked him also if he could give me any local info on these snakes and where they came from. Sadly the most specific he could get was that they are collected from western states, including Utah, Texas, New Mexico, etc. This online store is based in Florida, so it seems that they send out people to go on trips for long periods of time collecting everything they can including the man I spoke to on the phone, who seemed to understand the snakes and habitat well. Bummer.
Obviously Arizona and Rhinocheilus are common, but this practice of commercial mass collecting seems to take place in regularly, and I wouldn't be surprised if populations in some areas decline. I'm almost positive their primary method of collection was road cruising, but populations near roadways are definitely affected by traffic and dors. Collecting on this level especially of adults, (the man told me if I was interested they had gravid individuals) I can't imagine as being trivial.


I feel this post deserves a bump.

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by craigb » December 7th, 2016, 9:50 am

Back to "Why I don't collect"....

I am older, and don't have any more space in my herp room. I have "been there, and done that" so there is not much desire to repeat it.
Taking pictures/videos is a lot more fun and doesn't require daily care. I buy my appropriate licenses though because technically I am collecting them when I pose them to photograph. It's expensive but saves me from getting a lecture from the warden.

:sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep:

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Kelly Mc » December 7th, 2016, 11:27 am

As said the post was bumped, not the thread craig. wakey wakey

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WSTREPS
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by WSTREPS » December 7th, 2016, 1:44 pm

I posted a short version of this video on the board line. This is the full version.

George Carlin - Saving the Planet , he hits the nail on the head. Brilliant.



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Kelly Mc
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Kelly Mc » December 7th, 2016, 2:04 pm

Yes Carlin was a funny comedian.

It seems to me that an attempt is being made to create an anti scientists fellowship on FHF. Heavy handed and buffoonish extravagances of expression, and their neck rubbing betas tipsy sounding confessions.

I hope Scientists continue to come here as it makes FHF better than the usual amateurs gone wild sites.

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by stlouisdude » December 7th, 2016, 5:44 pm

I wouldn't say anti-scientist as that makes it sound like anyone working professionally is somehow a monolithic creature incapable of varied opinion. There are lots of scientists that I respect and many that I do not, just like any other group of people I have ever encountered. There is a tendency to want to classify entire groups of people as good or bad, but it's quite rare that such things can ever be justified when objectively considered in light of all available evidence.

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Jeremy Wright
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Jeremy Wright » December 8th, 2016, 9:45 am

I have been able to meet many herpetologists through my dad, a biology professor. It seems like all of them started their passion for reptiles by keeping and collecting specimens when they were younger, but are adamant against it now. People seem to use the example of Whitewater to "prove" that collecting is not that big of a deal, but Whitewater has a traffic density of almost nothing besides herpers and very little development or habitat degradation. Some parts of ABDSP and MZ Hwy have much higher traffic and dors on top of collection. Those are the areas where research is needed. I was talking to a herpetologist who did his research on montane rattlers in South Arizona and he told me there is 100% much lower numbers of all 3 species then the 70s and 80s when he did the bulk of his research. The species most targeted by private collectors seem to be the rare and exotic ones, but no one knows what numbers these snakes live in or are being collected by. No one can deny that collecting is negatively affecting a species or population, even if it is by a small margin.

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by WSTREPS » December 8th, 2016, 3:30 pm

I was talking to a herpetologist who did his research on montane rattlers in South Arizona and he told me there is 100% much lower numbers of all 3 species then the 70s and 80s when he did the bulk of his research.
Ok , now the trurh. The IUCN Global Species Programme, working with the Species Survival Commission and many partners, remains firmly committed to providing the world with the most objective, scientifically-based information on the current status of globally threatened biodiversity. The IUCN is the top if the food chain when it comes to compiling up to the minute scientific data . Using critical scientific analysis when assessing a species status as demonstrated by scientific research . It doesn't get any better then the ICUN. Researcher's can spin it anyway they want to a reporter, a herp club meeting, each other, But when they have to submit their facts and have them objectively reviewed by their peers, well well..................................

Crotalus willardi (Ridge-nosed rattlesnake )

This species is classified as Least Concern on the IUCN Red List of Threatened Species (v3.1, 2001).[5] Species are listed as such due to their wide distribution, presumed large population, or because they are unlikely to be declining fast enough to qualify for listing in a more threatened category. The population trend was stable when assessed in 2007.[6]

Crotalus pricei (Twin-spotted Rattlesnake)
Status: Least Concern ver 3.1
Pop. trend: stable

This species is represented by many occurrences (subpopulations). On a range-wide scale, Campbell and Lamar (2004) mapped about 46 collection sites. The adult population size is unknown but presumably exceeds 10,000. It is locally common in some areas but apparently rare in the southern part of the range. Ernst and Ernst (2003) stated that this species is now less common in Arizona than it was prior to 1982, but no evidence supporting this statement was provided. Currently, its extent of occurrence, area of occupancy, number of subpopulations, and population size are probably stable.


Crotalus tigris (Tiger Rattlesnake)

On a range-wide scale, Campbell and Lamar (2004) mapped 33 collection sites. Lowe et al. (1986) stated that the species is known from approximately 100 localities throughout the range. The adult population size is unknown but presumably exceeds 10,000. This snake is fairly common in some areas, but "some local populations seem small" (Ernst and Ernst 2003). Its extent of occurrence, area of occupancy, number of subpopulations, and population size are probably relatively stable or declining at a rate of less than 10% over 10 years or three generations.

Current Population Trend: Stable

Ernie Eison

stlouisdude
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by stlouisdude » December 8th, 2016, 6:16 pm

Jeremy Wright wrote:. No one can deny that collecting is negatively affecting a species or population, even if it is by a small margin.

I actually do deny that, most populations are limited by food, prime basking areas, etc. Taking one may just allow another one to survive thereby resulting in zero change.

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by MonarchzMan » December 8th, 2016, 7:43 pm

stlouisdude wrote:
Jeremy Wright wrote:. No one can deny that collecting is negatively affecting a species or population, even if it is by a small margin.

I actually do deny that, most populations are limited by food, prime basking areas, etc. Taking one may just allow another one to survive thereby resulting in zero change.
Collection does have effects on populations. For the most overt example, look at the rattle-less rattlesnakes that have evolved not to rattle because of over-collection from round ups.

The issue with your argument is that you're saying one animal is the same as another. That's not the case. There's a reason why the collected animal as able to survive to that point and the other has issues. Taking of one animal results in a change in allele frequencies in the population, particularly if it's a small population. This fundamentally, and likely irreversibly, changes the population structure. For better or for worse remains to be seen, but the change happened. I will admit that except for the most imperiled populations, removal of a single individual will have little effect, but we're not talking about taking of a single individual, but consistent collection over many years. If I got back to the rattle-less rattlesnakes, this is a beneficial behavior for dealing with round-ups, but what happens when individuals emigrate to areas not targeted by round-ups and that behavior spreads? The rattle is a warning to predators. Without that warning, what happens?
WSTREPS wrote:
I was talking to a herpetologist who did his research on montane rattlers in South Arizona and he told me there is 100% much lower numbers of all 3 species then the 70s and 80s when he did the bulk of his research.
Ok , now the trurh. The IUCN Global Species Programme, working with the Species Survival Commission and many partners, remains firmly committed to providing the world with the most objective, scientifically-based information on the current status of globally threatened biodiversity. The IUCN is the top if the food chain when it comes to compiling up to the minute scientific data . Using critical scientific analysis when assessing a species status as demonstrated by scientific research . It doesn't get any better then the ICUN. Researcher's can spin it anyway they want to a reporter, a herp club meeting, each other, But when they have to submit their facts and have them objectively reviewed by their peers, well well..................................

Crotalus willardi (Ridge-nosed rattlesnake )

This species is classified as Least Concern on the IUCN Red List of Threatened Species (v3.1, 2001).[5] Species are listed as such due to their wide distribution, presumed large population, or because they are unlikely to be declining fast enough to qualify for listing in a more threatened category. The population trend was stable when assessed in 2007.[6]

Crotalus pricei (Twin-spotted Rattlesnake)
Status: Least Concern ver 3.1
Pop. trend: stable

This species is represented by many occurrences (subpopulations). On a range-wide scale, Campbell and Lamar (2004) mapped about 46 collection sites. The adult population size is unknown but presumably exceeds 10,000. It is locally common in some areas but apparently rare in the southern part of the range. Ernst and Ernst (2003) stated that this species is now less common in Arizona than it was prior to 1982, but no evidence supporting this statement was provided. Currently, its extent of occurrence, area of occupancy, number of subpopulations, and population size are probably stable.


Crotalus tigris (Tiger Rattlesnake)

On a range-wide scale, Campbell and Lamar (2004) mapped 33 collection sites. Lowe et al. (1986) stated that the species is known from approximately 100 localities throughout the range. The adult population size is unknown but presumably exceeds 10,000. This snake is fairly common in some areas, but "some local populations seem small" (Ernst and Ernst 2003). Its extent of occurrence, area of occupancy, number of subpopulations, and population size are probably relatively stable or declining at a rate of less than 10% over 10 years or three generations.

Current Population Trend: Stable

Ernie Eison
I have read enough of your anti-scientist BS to make my blood boil. There are a few problems with your assertions.

1. While the IUCN is a great repository of information, individual species assessments are not done by some panel, but by experts on those species. The bigwigs that you so like to disparage.

2. Jeremy's statements are not in conflict with what you've posted about the IUCN. He was clearly talking about localized population-level effects. While the IUCN uses statements like "Population Trend," it's not talking about localized populations, but the species as a whole. It is entirely possible that local populations can be declining from collection while the overall species is doing fine.

3. You conveniently ignore threats on the IUCN pages:

Crotalus pricei - No major threats are known; most localities in Mexico are remote and difficult to access. Potential threats in Arizona include mining, grazing, overcollecting, logging, and recreational or other development (Johnson and Mills, cited by Ernst 1992).

Crotalus willardi - On a range-wide basis, no major threats are known. As of the early 1980s, populations in Arizona were not threatened (Johnson cited by Ernst 1992). Threats in Arizona include illegal collecting, mining, recreational development, and wood cutting (Lowe et al. 1986).

4. You also ignore that these assessments are nearly 10 years old and discount that anything could have happened in the last 10 years.

Please stop with the baseless attacks on scientists because they're successful in their field.

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Jeremy Wright
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Jeremy Wright » December 8th, 2016, 10:46 pm

Let's take a step back for a minute, as I want to add one thing.
Everyone on this forum shares a love of reptiles & amphibians. Some of us are into field-herping and photography like me, and others are into private collections, herpeculture, etc. A biologist has no reason to draw more attention then necessary to a species, he has no monetary conflicts with rules or regulations or populations of a species. Collectors on the other hand, while private or commercial do NOT want any topic of collection or population decline to gain "fire" as they say and become an issue, as their goal of collection can become harder or illegal if laws, limits, trade and sale are changed or altered. Some people, (Tom Crutchfield, Keszey and Macinnes from Glades herp farm) who supposedly should be some of the most knowledgeable and responsible people having worked with herps for ages commit the largest atrocities in the herp community with smuggling. There are people on this forum too, who I have talked to, that have also been charged for herp-smuggling crime and illegal collection. Why can't we share the passion of observing herps in the wild as opposed to boxing them up all the time?
Biologists and researchers will earn my trust about populations and threats to herps then opinionated people to be frank. There are local canyons near my home where I used to see tree frogs and blainville's horned lizards practically every trip. I've seen people collect both in large quantities, some people evident herpers and enthusiasts others just parents with curious kids, but the truth of the matter is that they do not exist in anywhere near the same populations as they did 10 years ago.
There are many herp species that have declined hugely or gone extinct in our generation. Just because we don't see that happening to a large extent here near us does not mean it doesn't exist. Add on habitat destruction, diseases / fungi (like Chytrid), climate change, etc on to collection and population decline can happen faster than I think many expect.
Ernie- your name sounds familiar and I seem to recall you own a herp farm somewhere in Florida? I'd be curious to know if you deal with wild-caughts and imports often and what the collectors or importers you have talked to have to say.

http://www.hcn.org/issues/48.20/in-ariz ... -made-easy
"The twin-spot’s range is limited to a few high mountains in southern Arizona and northern Mexico, and climate change has already taken a toll. Less rain means fewer spiny lizards to eat, while rising temperatures force the snakes to move higher up. Now that they’ve reached top elevations, there’s nowhere else for them to go. Prival’s research population probably took another hit from the enormous Horseshoe Fire in 2011. He estimates that perhaps 70 twin-spotteds still dwell on this slope, down from an estimated 86 in 2009. Poaching is only making it worse. “If just seven of those snakes are taken by poachers,” he says, “that’s 10 percent of the population right there.”

Although collecting twin-spotted rattlesnakes is illegal in Arizona — and a federal law called the Lacey Act prohibits buying and selling protected wildlife — there’s little chance that thieves will be caught. Even if they are, they likely won’t pay more than a few hundred dollars in fines. For commercial dealers, who can earn thousands from a single animal, that’s simply part of business overhead. Meanwhile, the difficult task of proving that a snake was poached falls upon the authorities."

I don't want to cause any anger or tension and I respect everyone here, I just fail to comprehend some of the points being brought up here. -Jeremy

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by MCHerper » December 9th, 2016, 8:21 am

Can we at least tentatively agree that taking one or a few specimens from the wild where their numbers are plentiful and their populations are stable is not the same as taking large numbers of specimens from the wild in places where their populations are potentially threatened? :thumb:

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Jeremy Wright » December 9th, 2016, 3:45 pm

MCHerper wrote:an we at least tentatively agree that taking one or a few specimens from the wild where their numbers are plentiful and their populations are stable is not the same as taking large numbers of specimens from the wild in places where their populations are potentially threatened?
In theory yes, but if no one knows how many individuals are being collected we can not draw any conclusions. I used the example of Pseudacris cadaverina in the San Gabriel Mountains near me. These frogs are in every canyon, but I used to see 30-40 sometimes even on one rock. I hardly see 2 or more now. I'm not saying that this decrease is entirely due to collecting which I have witnessed on many occasions, I'm just saying that we can conclude the collection was a factor in the decrease of the population.
There are increasingly more collectors and trade in the reptile / herpeculture industry as habitats are decreasing significantly worldwide, chytrid continues to wreak havoc on amphibians, and climate change alters the living styles of many organisms. If we want herps to be around for our children, grandchildren, and further on I think limiting our private collecting to a minimum and changing the attitudes of many is a big step in the right direction. I'm sure there are enough of the legal species for take in people's collections that captive breeding could created CB stock for most of these animals, and that would be ideal in my opinion.

I understand that many will think I'm an anti-collection advocate, but I used to legally collect and have owned wild herps, especially when I was younger. At least where I am in Socal, year after year you see more people out in spots herping, more road cruisers, and less and less pristine habitat. :?
-Jeremy

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WSTREPS
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by WSTREPS » December 9th, 2016, 4:10 pm

Jeremy's statements are not in conflict with what you've posted about the IUCN. He was clearly talking about localized population-level effects. While the IUCN uses statements like "Population Trend," it's not talking about localized populations, but the species as a whole. It is entirely possible that local populations can be declining from collection while the overall species is doing fine.

I was talking to a herpetologist who did his research on montane rattlers in South Arizona and he told me there is 100% much lower numbers of all 3 species then the 70s and 80s when he did the bulk of his research. Jeremy

You conveniently ignore threats on the IUCN pages

South Arizona is not a localized population its an entire region. The IUCN mentions potential threats separately (hypothetically) with every listing. But not as a documented cause of decline or demonstrable reason for concern in the specie's overall or localized population. If any of the listed threats are shown to be a demonstrably viable cause for concern it is directly noted as such and details of the threat/s cause and effect are provided. No, it is not possible that local populations of the listed species can be declining from collection while the overall species is doing fine. The facts prove this out. I posted a good deal of fact based information regarding rattlesnake biology, ecology, gave extreme factual examples of collection cause and effect. The thing that separates me from a guy like MonarchzMan is.......I know what I'm talking about. To the MonarchzMans of the world I suggest you take your boiling blood and learn what it is your talking about before confronting the people that do.

4. You also ignore that these assessments are nearly 10 years old and discount that anything could have happened in the last 10 years.

IUCN data base is updated annually. Not all the information used in determining the species status is included in the summation, just examples. Every biologist working with what they call endangered species would love to have their pet project red listed. The problem is you need real documentation, sound data collection, a demonstrably legitimate reason. The rattlesnake hacks know their BS isn't going to fly when reviewed by someone who isn't getting a paycheck or career boost from listing it. So they take their crap where it will be excepted without rebuttal, the press, friendly peer reviewed publication, they show up at Fish and Wildlife offices with their activist supporters.

Example :

The Timber rattlesnake extortionist tried to push for a cites listing. I went into full detail why the prospect of getting these snakes listed had so many activist and researcher's alike getting wet. (do a search). All the big name researcher's and their mountains of peer reviewed work was backing this proposal. We all have heard about all the research surrounding "we need to save " timber rattlesnakes, all the scientific proof that's been gathered to support this notion. Slam dunk right.

Here's their premise for the listing,.
Given the current status and biological characteristics of C. horridus, especially in the Northeast and Upper Midwest, it is likely that collecting this species from the wild for international commercial trade could have a detrimental impact on the species by either exceeding, over an extended period, the level that can be continued in perpetuity, or reducing it to a population level at which its survival could be threatened by other influences. This situation meets the criteria of Resolution Conf. 9.24, Annex 2a, for inclusion in Appendix II under the provisions of Article II (a).


Actual or potential trade impacts: Collection of timber rattlesnake for trade has severely impacted timber rattlesnake populations in several northern States (see Section 3.3 Illegal trade). Today, only relict timber rattlesnake populations remain in most northeastern States. These populations are unlikely to be able to sustain any level of harvest for trade. Some populations of the southern canebrake rattlesnake may be in better condition, and may be better able to sustain limited harvest.
The proposal met the criteria except for one thing, the reserchers own data proved them to be Liar's. BIG liars. Proposal Rejected. These clowns had gotten used to the idea they could just show and everyone was going to take their word for it. Why not, that's the way it usually work's. It must have been a big surprise to find out that the details of their data was going to be looked at and reviewed by someone who knows what their doing and wasn't there just to sign off on legislation or hand out funding.

A biologist has no reason to draw more attention then necessary to a species, he has no monetary conflicts with rules or regulations or populations of a species. Collectors on the other hand, while private or commercial do NOT want any topic of collection or population decline to gain "fire" as they say and become an issue, as their goal of collection can become harder or illegal if laws, limits, trade and sale are changed or altered. Some people, (Tom Crutchfield, Keszey and Macinnes from Glades herp farm) who supposedly should be some of the most knowledgeable and responsible people having worked with herps for ages commit the largest atrocities in the herp community with smuggling.

I just fail to comprehend some of the points being brought up here. -Jeremy
Being completely straight, Wow, What a completely clueless statement. Everything in that post was clueless. More then anybody a biologist has reason to draw more attention then necessary to a species. Yes they do have major monetary conflicts with rules or regulations or populations of a species. The reason you cant comprehend some of the points being brought up here is because you have a very limited amount of experience and knowledge. Its a common amateurs perspective. Your comments are exceptionally naïve. You make trolling phone calls to pet shops for God's sake. The problem with amateurs is they think they know. They talk to a few people , runaround look at a couple animals and play with google. Completely buying into whatever their perceived experts have to say. And suddenly their in position to make all sorts of educated statements. They think they have educated themselves to the point of being authoritative.

The arizona-reptile-poaching-made-easy story was posted on the news forum and some the many falsehoods found in that laughable piece of press fodder were debunked. Link below.

http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... 13&t=23960

Ernie Eison

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by MonarchzMan » December 9th, 2016, 5:02 pm

WSTREPS wrote:South Arizona is not a localized population its an entire region. The IUCN mentions potential threats separately (hypothetically) with every listing. But not as a documented cause of decline or demonstrable reason for concern in the specie's overall or localized population. If any of the listed threats are shown to be a demonstrably viable cause for concern it is directly noted as such and details of the threat/s cause and effect are provided. No, it is not possible that local populations of the listed species can be declining from collection while the overall species is doing fine. The facts prove this out. I posted a good deal of fact based information regarding rattlesnake biology, ecology, gave extreme factual examples of collection cause and effect. The thing that separates me from a guy like MonarchzMan is.......I know what I'm talking about. To the MonarchzMans of the world I suggest you take your boiling blood and learn what it is your talking about before confronting the people that do.
No, Ernie, you don't know what you're talking about. I do. I absolutely do. I'm fairly certain I have more qualifications to back my statements than you do. You simple lack of grasp of common vernacular is astounding. I work on frogs in northeastern French Guiana. I'm not working on every population in northeastern French Guiana. It's not meant to be a literal statement, just as I'm certain Jeremy's statement is not meant to be literal. Very, very few people research species across regions. They work on individual populations within a region. I've worked on populations that are declining, but overall, the species is fine. I suggest, Mister My-Stuff-Don't-Stink, that you do a little reading on metapopulation dynamics.

This is just simple population dynamics. Rattlesnake, frog, bird, bacteria, whatever, they're all still dictated by the same population dynamics. Removal of individuals has effects on the overall population. A species can be doing fine with individual populations declining. That you suggest otherwise absolutely, clearly suggests that you have no clue what you're talking about.
IUCN data base is updated annually. Not all the information used in determining the species status is included in the summation, just examples. Every biologist working with what they call endangered species would love to have their pet project red listed. The problem is you need real documentation, sound data collection, a demonstrably legitimate reason. The rattlesnake hacks know their BS isn't going to fly when reviewed by someone who isn't getting a paycheck or career boost from listing it. So they take their crap where it will be excepted without rebuttal, the press, friendly peer reviewed publication, they show up at Fish and Wildlife offices with their activist supporters.
The rattlesnakes you listed were all assessed in 2007. There is no indication, in their citations or otherwise, that data after 2007 has since been included in their assessment. While some species have been undoubtedly been assessed this year, these three species have not. And you do understand that the IUCN carries no legal ramifications for species, right? It's meant to be a guide. There are plenty of species that are IUCN Red Listed that have no legal protection. As a scientist who has actually worked with threatened and endangered species, it doesn't really matter to me if they're red listed. Legal protections are what matter to me. And from a bureaucratic standpoint, working with legally protected species is a giant pain. I'm sure people working with threatened or endangered species would like to see them listed, but they also know that doing so makes their research exponentially more difficult.

And FYI, in the countless grants I've submitted, I've never once had a reviewer comment that I should note the IUCN Red List rating for the species, nor have I had peers suggest that I include it. And none of the grants I've applied to have had conditional funding based on that. If I work with a listed species or get a species listed, my career is not advanced much at all. It's the results of that research that advance my career.
Example :

The Timber rattlesnake extortionist tried to push for a cites listing. I went into full detail why the prospect of getting these snakes listed had so many activist and researcher's alike getting wet. (do a search). All the big name researcher's and their mountains of peer reviewed work was backing this proposal. We all have heard about all the research surrounding "we need to save " timber rattlesnakes, all the scientific proof that's been gathered to support this notion. Slam dunk right.

Here's their premise for the listing,.
Given the current status and biological characteristics of C. horridus, especially in the Northeast and Upper Midwest, it is likely that collecting this species from the wild for international commercial trade could have a detrimental impact on the species by either exceeding, over an extended period, the level that can be continued in perpetuity, or reducing it to a population level at which its survival could be threatened by other influences. This situation meets the criteria of Resolution Conf. 9.24, Annex 2a, for inclusion in Appendix II under the provisions of Article II (a).


Actual or potential trade impacts: Collection of timber rattlesnake for trade has severely impacted timber rattlesnake populations in several northern States (see Section 3.3 Illegal trade). Today, only relict timber rattlesnake populations remain in most northeastern States. These populations are unlikely to be able to sustain any level of harvest for trade. Some populations of the southern canebrake rattlesnake may be in better condition, and may be better able to sustain limited harvest.
It proposal met the criteria except for one thing, the reserchers own data proved them to be Liar's. BIG liars. Proposal Rejected. These clowns had gotten used to the idea they could just show and everyone was going to take their word for it. Why not, that's the way it usually work's. It must have been a big surprise to find out that the details of their data was going to be looked at and reviewed by someone who knows what their doing and wasn't there just to sign off on legislation or hand out funding.
I'm guessing you weren't involved in the deliberations from the CITES committee, so your conclusions on why or why not a proposal was rejected is complete biased conjecture.

I don't know what you're deal is, but you seem like some wannabe scientist who failed to make it professionally, so now you're jealous of all of the people who actually are successful in a field that you couldn't break into. As a result, you have to tear down anyone and everyone who successful in a field that you couldn't get into. It just seems spiteful and petty, and honestly, a bit of a troll. You notice how the other scientists on their board don't agree with you? There's reason for that.

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by WSTREPS » December 9th, 2016, 7:38 pm

No, Ernie, you don't know what you're talking about. I do. I absolutely do. I'm fairly certain I have more qualifications to back my statements than you do. You simple lack of grasp of common vernacular is astounding. I work on frogs in northeastern French Guiana. I'm not working on every population in northeastern French Guiana. It's not meant to be a literal statement, just as I'm certain Jeremy's statement is not meant to be literal. Very, very few people research species across regions. They work on individual populations within a region. I've worked on populations that are declining, but overall, the species is fine. I suggest, Mister My-Stuff-Don't-Stink, that you do a little reading on metapopulation dynamics.

I didn't know frog studies in northeastern French Guiana equals expertise in rattlesnake ecology and population dynamic's, morphology, cold weather effects, denning sites etc. Can you tell us about all the rattlesnake research you have done. How much you have read? How familiar you are with the people and research involved with these animals. All the stuff I covered in other post. I want to hear this stuff from someone who knows what their talking about, Since I don't.

Very few people research species across regions, they work on individual populations within a region? Obviously, but an entire region was named. What takes place is they work with fragments of population's within the population that comprise the specie's full presents in the entire region. Then they tell how the snakes at the study site are declining, without providing legitimate scientific proof that there really is any decline. This while throwing out unsubstantiated hypothetical reasons for the claimed decline. Then they use broad strokes such naming an entire region. This to indicate that the species is disappearing from the planet. I have detailed the gross failings in the methodology's used by the biologist promoting " disappearing " snake species in other post (Do a search). Its all an academic word game used to skew data. I don't have enough time or even care to dissect your whole IUCN rant.
I'm guessing you weren't involved in the deliberations from the CITES committee, so your conclusions on why or why not a proposal was rejected is complete biased conjecture.
I did read the full proposal and looked at all the accumulated data. When you compare the factual reported numbers to the premise of the proposal....sheesh , its embarrassing. They tried to pad the numbers and looked like idiots. You would have to be a clown to try and get something like that passed. They were clearly lying. But thought it fly anyway. It failed for the reasons I previously stated. So they kept their BS at the state level where nobody pushes back , maybe occasionally trying something federal and in the mean time they still have their funded careers as rattlesnake angels warding off the evil imaginary poachers.

I don't know what you're deal is, but you seem like some wannabe scientist who failed to make it professionally, so now you're jealous of all of the people who actually are successful in a field that you couldn't break into. As a result, you have to tear down anyone and everyone who successful in a field that you couldn't get into. It just seems spiteful and petty, and honestly, a bit of a troll. You notice how the other scientists on their board don't agree with you? There's reason for that.
Yeah that's it, you got me. I'm jealous.

Maybe the other scientists on the board don't agree with me but then again none of these scientist has shown much in the way of topical knowledge. But they certainly have displayed plenty of personal bias when confronting me. And there are scientist's who are experts on the topics I discuss that certainly and whole heartily do agree with me. People like Louis Porrus, Dave and Tracy Barker, Dean Rippa etc. Id say there's some pretty good qualifications there. They never call me "anti scientific ".

Ernie Eison

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by MonarchzMan » December 9th, 2016, 8:17 pm

WSTREPS wrote:
No, Ernie, you don't know what you're talking about. I do. I absolutely do. I'm fairly certain I have more qualifications to back my statements than you do. You simple lack of grasp of common vernacular is astounding. I work on frogs in northeastern French Guiana. I'm not working on every population in northeastern French Guiana. It's not meant to be a literal statement, just as I'm certain Jeremy's statement is not meant to be literal. Very, very few people research species across regions. They work on individual populations within a region. I've worked on populations that are declining, but overall, the species is fine. I suggest, Mister My-Stuff-Don't-Stink, that you do a little reading on metapopulation dynamics.

I didn't know frog studies in northeastern French Guiana equals expertise in rattlesnake ecology and population dynamic's, morphology, cold weather effects, denning sites etc. Can you tell us about all the rattlesnake research you have done. How much you have read? How familiar you are with the people and research involved with these animals. All the stuff I covered in other post. I want to hear this stuff from someone who knows what their talking about, Since I don't.
At it's basest level, we're talking about gene flow, migration, and drift. It doesn't matter if those genes are being transported by frogs, snakes, birds, whatever. The principles behind it are the same. I don't need to be an expert in rattlesnake biology to understand basic, and I do mean basic, population genetics. You've made the claim that a ten-year old assessment of snakes says that the populations are stable, and therefore a researcher saying that populations he's studied are declining. Those aren't conflicting statements. I mean, you do understand averages, right? By literal definition, there are populations that are increasing and there are populations that are decreasing. And, unless in very small populations, collectors likely target particular populations and not across the range. Your attacks on someone who has observational evidence of declines shows 1) your bias, 2) your fundamental misunderstanding of population dynamics, and 3) your fundamental misunderstanding of math.
Very few people research species across regions, they work on individual populations within a region? Obviously, but an entire region was named. What takes place is they work with fragments of population's within the population that comprise the specie's full presents in the entire region. Then they tell how the snakes at the study site are declining, without providing legitimate scientific proof that there really is any decline. This while throwing out unsubstantiated hypothetical reasons for the claimed decline. Then they use broad strokes such naming an entire region. This to indicate that the species is disappearing from the planet. I have detailed the gross failings in the methodology's used by the biologist promoting " disappearing " snake species in other post (Do a search). Its all an academic word game used to skew data. I don't have enough time or even care to dissect your whole IUCN rant.
1) I am not doing your work for you. Stop telling me to do searches.

2) You're criticizing what as clearly an anecdotal story told to a friend on a field herping forum. Clearly, Jeremy was not writing in a fashion to cover scientific scrutiny.

3) I've seen your evidence, which generally has boiled down to "I know what I'm talking about, you don't, you're wrong" which doesn't constitute any sort of evidence.

4) Ignoring my "rant" does not invalidate the underlying points.
I'm guessing you weren't involved in the deliberations from the CITES committee, so your conclusions on why or why not a proposal was rejected is

I did read the full proposal and looked at all the accumulated data. When you compare the factual reported numbers to the premise of the proposal....sheesh , its embarrassing. They tried to pad the numbers and looked like idiots. You would have to be a clown to try and get something like that passed. They were clearly lying. But thought it fly anyway. It failed for the reasons I previously stated. So they kept their BS at the state level where nobody pushes back , maybe occasionally trying something federal and in the mean time they still have their funded careers as rattlesnake angels warding off the evil imaginary poachers.
So basically, you're telling me that you, through your own biased vision, drew conclusions on decisions by the CITES committee even though you were not privy to any of the actual deliberations as to why or why not to list Timber Rattlesnakes. Sorry, but I'm going to trust the people researching the snakes over some with an ax to grind.

Yeah that's it, you got me. I'm jealous.
Glad you admit it, and we can clear that up.
Maybe the other scientists on the board don't agree with me but then again none of these scientist has shown much in the way of topical knowledge. But they certainly have displayed plenty of personal bias when confronting me. And there are scientist's who are experts on the topics I discuss that certainly and whole heartily do agree with me. People like Louis Porrus, Dave and Tracy Barker, Dean Rippa etc. Id say there's some pretty good qualifications there. They never call me "anti scientific ".

Ernie Eison
You are completely antagonistic to scientists in general. If you expect them not to show bias against you, maybe don't broadly paint all of them as being corrupt, egomaniacs who do nothing but fake data to advance their careers.

And nice name dropping. Of course, I'm sure none of them would come here and vouch for you. You do understand that the successes of others do not equate to your own success or authority on any topic. I could name any number of bigwig herpetologists, biologists, and evolutionary biologists that I've rubbed shoulders with, but I don't because the merits of my argument are not dictated by who I know. I'd actually bet you've never talked to any of them about the anti-scientist BS you constantly spout here.

And notice, I said anti-scientist. Not anti-science or anti-scientific (which makes no sense). There is a big difference, there. And you absolutely are anti-scientist. It is clear here. You deem yourself the final arbiter of what is good and bad science, even though you clearly don't have much experience actually conduction research. And given the names you've dropped plus a google search, it seems as though you're from the hobby side of things, which generally likes unrestricted collection. You're not a scientist, and it would appear, don't have much experience conducting science. I won't tell you how to do your job. Don't tell me how to do mine.

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Jeremy Wright » December 9th, 2016, 9:12 pm

WSTREPS wrote:

Being completely straight, Wow, What a completely clueless statement. Everything in that post was clueless. More then anybody a biologist has reason to draw more attention then necessary to a species. Yes they do have major monetary conflicts with rules or regulations or populations of a species. The reason you cant comprehend some of the points being brought up here is because you have a very limited amount of experience and knowledge. Its a common amateurs perspective. Your comments are exceptionally naïve. You make trolling phone calls to pet shops for God's sake. The problem with amateurs is they think they know. They talk to a few people , runaround look at a couple animals and play with google. Completely buying into whatever their perceived experts have to say. And suddenly their in position to make all sorts of educated statements. They think they have educated themselves to the point of being authoritative.

The arizona-reptile-poaching-made-easy story was posted on the news forum and some the many falsehoods found in that laughable piece of press fodder were debunked. Link below.

http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... 13&t=23960

Ernie Eison
My father himself is a biologist and researcher on mainly invertebrates, but vertebrates also, and none of his research earns him specific money due to populations. I have worked with biologists and talked to countless individuals in and out of the field, and am currently studying to be in that profession, so I would not refer to myself as a naive amateur. I won't name names but I have been fortunate to meet and talk with some of the most well known and respected people who have written books I guarentee you know and done much research on herps and all tell me that collection has been a real problem on top of the reduction in habitat, drought, and other factors.
Do you have any science or research background? You never responded to my question of yourself being in the herp business, as that fits perfectly with your attitude of passing the blame to other people and refusing to acknowledge collection problems. When populations go down, and regulations and prices therefore go up, the people being screwed over are the collectors and importers. This is just like Climate change, the fossil fuel industry would LOVE to deny Climate change and refuse to take action to shift to renewable energy, yet they are the one's who are affecting if we follow science's pathway.

Asides from your attempts to roast me, I have not heard a single piece of evidence from you. What falsehoods were debunked and with what evidence? I saw a lot of "Oh this is BS" but no evidence to prove it? That particular population of ~70 pricei is not a random number plucked out of the sky. Many scientists and all that have researched that slide estimate a similar number. The fact that if 7 are collected, 10% of the population is gone is not naive or baised, it's inrefutable math.
Do you not seem concerned at the slightest that there are people from your state driving out west and collecting hundreds or thousands of snakes and other herps? This is not my speculation either - I used to be into keeping herps and I would follow market kingsnake almost daily. As soon as it gets warm to road cruise you start seeing the snakes, glossies, long nose, shovel nose, lyre snakes sometimes, night snakes, even things like Blacktail Rattlesnakes and Massassaugas come up on for sale. And the sellers will repeat every 2-3 weeks once the bulk of their collections is complete.

I also find it funny how you say I "completely buy into what experts have to say." To be honest, yes, I do believe what experts say, as they are EXPERTS, not amateurs or opinionated herpers or collectors that aren't in the field at all. I would trust a biologist who has researched specimens in the field over a herp farm owner ANY day in terms of planning and statistics for wild animals.

-Jeremy

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by MonarchzMan » December 9th, 2016, 9:22 pm

Jeremy Wright wrote:
WSTREPS wrote: Do you have any science or research background? You never responded to my question of yourself being in the herp business, as that fits perfectly with your attitude of passing the blame to other people and refusing to acknowledge collection problems. When populations go down, and regulations and prices therefore go up, the people being screwed over are the collectors and importers. This is just like Climate change, the fossil fuel industry would LOVE to deny Climate change and refuse to take action to shift to renewable energy, yet they are the one's who are affecting if we follow science's pathway.
If you Google "Ernie Eison," you come up with Westwood Acres Reptile Farm, which if not him, is a hell of a coincidence. But as you say, if it is him, it does explain his stances quite a bit. And the names he's dropped.

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Jeremy Wright
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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Jeremy Wright » December 9th, 2016, 9:33 pm

MonarchzMan wrote:
Jeremy Wright wrote:
WSTREPS wrote: Do you have any science or research background? You never responded to my question of yourself being in the herp business, as that fits perfectly with your attitude of passing the blame to other people and refusing to acknowledge collection problems. When populations go down, and regulations and prices therefore go up, the people being screwed over are the collectors and importers. This is just like Climate change, the fossil fuel industry would LOVE to deny Climate change and refuse to take action to shift to renewable energy, yet they are the one's who are affecting if we follow science's pathway.
If you Google "Ernie Eison," you come up with Westwood Acres Reptile Farm, which if not him, is a hell of a coincidence. But as you say, if it is him, it does explain his stances quite a bit. And the names he's dropped.
Exactly! It's most definitely the same person. I find it funny that some of us are validating a herp farm owner's opinions on research and population studies of reptiles.

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by MonarchzMan » December 9th, 2016, 9:44 pm

Jeremy Wright wrote:Exactly! It's most definitely the same person. I find it funny that some of us are validating a herp farm owner's opinions on research and population studies of reptiles.
I don't deny that herpetoculturalists have excellent experience, knowledge, and expertise at keeping and rearing herps, some of which can be invaluable for zoo and conservation efforts, but they have very little, if any, practical experience, knowledge, or expertise in conducting ecological or molecular research revolving around population structure and dynamics. It's a common rift that I see between people who keep and sell herps and people who professionally study them. Ernie's views are pretty consistent with herpetoculturalists that see scientists as corrupt individuals trying to limit the success of their business. Which all together is ironic, as he accuses scientists as being corrupt and faking data to get grant money and publications, when the objection is based out of the monetary loss that would occur if protections were put into place.

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Re: Why You Dont Collect

Post by Jeremy Wright » December 9th, 2016, 10:27 pm

Absolutely - I agree

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