DNA Confirms Nile Crocs in Florida

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Steve Bledsoe
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DNA Confirms Nile Crocs in Florida

Post by Steve Bledsoe » May 21st, 2016, 4:06 pm


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Re: DNA Confirms Nile Crocs in Florida

Post by stlouisdude » May 21st, 2016, 8:49 pm

Well, I certainly think whoever released them should be ashamed but a pet peeve of mine is speculation without any facts. Anyone could have released them for any reason and certainly there have been releases by people just to stir the political pot in regards to animal keeping, so who knows.

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Re: DNA Confirms Nile Crocs in Florida

Post by chrish » May 22nd, 2016, 11:07 am

I'm bothered otherwise responsible biologists fan the flames of public paranoia in the absence of data.

The better answer to the question "Are there wild nile crocs in the Everglades?" should have been "We don't have any real evidence to suggest it. This might have been just an isolated instance. Obviously we need to keep investigating, but for now, based on the data - No."

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Re: DNA Confirms Nile Crocs in Florida

Post by Antonsrkn » May 23rd, 2016, 6:48 am

chrish wrote:I'm bothered otherwise responsible biologists fan the flames of public paranoia in the absence of data.

The better answer to the question "Are there wild nile crocs in the Everglades?" should have been "We don't have any real evidence to suggest it. This might have been just an isolated instance. Obviously we need to keep investigating, but for now, based on the data - No."
You're assuming fair and accurate reporting, while I don't know whether that is the case or not here it certainly wouldn't be the first time the media has chosen certain fragments of an interview or statement that when taken out of context read very differently than the original intended message of the speaker.

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Re: DNA Confirms Nile Crocs in Florida

Post by WSTREPS » May 24th, 2016, 6:29 am

You're assuming fair and accurate reporting, while I don't know whether that is the case or not here it certainly wouldn't be the first time the media has chosen certain fragments of an interview or statement that when taken out of context read very differently than the original intended message of the speaker.

Its no assumption. its a proven fact that these invasive species biologist intentionally feed the media press fodder to gain attention and funding.

Its irresponsible, fraudulent and reprehensible. These clowns know that this is a story the press would take and run with. Just give them a little fuel and fan the fire a bit and we have terror. Terror is good for an invasive biologist career. Especially in a situation where there is billions of dollars in funding coming down the pike (Everglades restoration money) that everyone is trying get a nice piece of.

At what point does someone say enough and put a stop to this nonsense. Nile crocodiles infesting the Everglade's, moving North, crossbreeding with American crocodile's. Are you F'n kidding me. This based on a couple of random captures over a period of years. What these invasive biologist are doing is criminal.

Naturally they need to conduct DNA study's and do radio tracking experiments . The more scientist that get a piece of this, the better. More support for their BS.

Nobody is intentionally releasing Nile crocodiles into the wild. Random escapes have occurred over the years but in no way is it possible that this will lead to an infestation. There is no chance that you will ever see Nile crocodiles establishing let alone spreading. The work of these pseudo biologist can be placed along side the research that proves the existence of aliens and big foot.
Researchers estimate that the croc, an aggressive species, may be responsible for some 200 human deaths a year in Africa.

The Nile crocs also have a hearty appetite for cattle, and another concern is that there could be potential crossbreeding with the small population of American alligators, according to the study.
Right, and what's the Nile crocodile population in Africa ? About 84 billion. How about the amount human interaction and the circumstance's. Same with the cows. Thousand's maybe more people in Africa take baths , do laundry etc. in crocodile infested waters, the cows drink from these same water sources. In Florida cows drink from retention ponds and toughs, not crocodile infested rivers. People get a drink of bottled water and do their laundry in a machine not a muddy river. Alligators and American crocodile's are plentiful attack and kill people also.


If your worried about cows in Florida its Panthers that are doing all the damage and responsible for the cattle deaths . NON NATIVE panthers that were released by biologist to crossbreed with the natural Florida panther population.


Here's the Everglades post: Don’t shy away from visiting Everglades National Park, the only place in the world where you can view both American Alligators and American Crocodiles--and safely! Recent news has been circulating about the threat of Nile Crocodiles within Everglades National Park boundaries. We know only of one confirmed Nile Crocodile in March 2014 that was removed from the park. This animal was most likely an animal kept in captivity that escaped. Our native crocodiles are known for their shy, elusive behavior. To learn more: https://www.nps.gov/ever/learn/nature/crocodile.htm


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Re: DNA Confirms Nile Crocs in Florida

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck » May 24th, 2016, 7:25 am

WSTREPS wrote:There is no chance that you will ever see Nile crocodiles establishing let alone spreading.
Why?
WSTREPS wrote:Right, and what's the Nile crocodile population in Africa ? About 84 billion.
Where did you get that number?

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Re: DNA Confirms Nile Crocs in Florida

Post by Jeffreyrichard » May 25th, 2016, 8:23 am

stlouisdude wrote:Well, I certainly think whoever released them should be ashamed but a pet peeve of mine is speculation without any facts. Anyone could have released them for any reason and certainly there have been releases by people just to stir the political pot in regards to animal keeping, so who knows.
Did I misread the article? I thought it said DNA results conclusively say the crocs are Nile Crocs ... no speculation with that. I also understood that the SME quoted said he did not know where the crocs originated from ... although he did speculated that maybe they were released or escaped. I don't find that opinion to be troubling.

Of course, the author stated that the Nile Crocs could potentially interbreed with "the small population of american alligators ..." so you might want to call that out ...

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Re: DNA Confirms Nile Crocs in Florida

Post by Kelly Mc » May 25th, 2016, 9:37 am

As far as stirring a political pot, I find that less likely than someone dumping an overgrowing pet out of a gym bag.

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Re: DNA Confirms Nile Crocs in Florida

Post by WSTREPS » May 25th, 2016, 5:10 pm

Did I misread the article? I thought it said DNA results conclusively say the crocs are Nile Crocs ... no speculation with that. I also understood that the SME quoted said he did not know where the crocs originated from ... although he did speculated that maybe they were released or escaped. I don't find that opinion to be troubling.
The DNA was a BS excuse like I said to get more scientist involved, more paper's published all the typical crap. Nothing of value can be determined by DNA testing in this case. You cant determine the animals true origins (checking stud book bloodlines, localities ) using DNA. As far as identification goes, the way to tell if you have a Nile crocodile or not is........are you ready...........YOU LOOK AT IT. Naturally these animals trace back to somewhere in Africa. Its a Nile crocodile. Nile = river = in Africa = Nile crocodile. Nile crocodile's are only native to the continent of Africa, all bloodlines originate there.

Its highly unlikely any one of the couple of juvenile crocodile's found over the years was the result of an intentional release. There are a number of South Florida rescues , road side zoos, places that keep crocs. Its likely that on a very rare occasion a small croc found its way out. The laws and monitoring of crocs in Florida is very tight. The people who keep these animals don't fool around but over a period of years accidents can happen. The fact that's its so rare is a testimony to the owners skill, care and security measure's.

WSTREPS wrote:

Part A : Where did you get that number?

PART B: There is no chance that you will ever see Nile crocodiles establishing let alone spreading.

Why?
Answer to Part A :

I used a number of methods for estimating species occurrence , population size and trajectories. Total counts , incomplete counts Strip censuses, roadside counts, flushing counts , corrected sight adjustment among others filtered thru mathematical equation. My estimate was derived using the same methods as invasive biologist use to determine the population size of Burmese python's and other species. And I'm sure with the same degree of accuracy. In layman's terms, Nile crocodile's are found over a massive range and are extremely abundant. I believe the most accurate appraisal of their true number would be to state that there are shitloads of them.

Answer to Part B.

While nothing is theoretically impossible (this the safety net dishonest scientist often use ) there are a number of sound biological reasons to suggest that the occurrence of an established population of Nile crocodile's in Florida is about as likely as finding a republican on Manhattan's upper east side. Introduction rate, condition, age, sex , size , location, seasonal climatic variable's , etc . There's is no realistic way to jump start a population of crocodilians by the random introduction of single juvenile specimens at random locations and random time frames over the course of years. The longest lived of the introduced radio tracked animals was 5 years and the animal died before reaching maturity, the other animal died after only two years. They should have survived 25 to 50 years. Clearly these animals did not thrive . The native American crocodile after decades of nurturing love and attention has managed to regain a fraction of its numbers contained in a fraction of its natural range in Florida. Crocodiles are much more fragile and specific of their environmental needs in the wild then what many people believe. It would be difficult maybe impossible to establish a free ranging population of Nile crocs in Florida if you intentionally released 50 sub adults into a specific area with a favorable sex ratio, let alone via the haphazard introduction's involved in this hoax.

How animals preforms in captivity is NO indication of how they will preform in an introduced free ranging environment.

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Kelly Mc
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Re: DNA Confirms Nile Crocs in Florida

Post by Kelly Mc » May 25th, 2016, 5:42 pm

The likelihood of intentional release of reptiles is not prevented by the existence of rescue agencies, or zoos. This is an experienced fact I can elaborate on at great length with many examples thrown into my life and work, and restless nights.

That the people who keep these animals don't fool around can easily be disproved by a simple youtube search. I also personally have dealt with individuals who got crocodilians who couldn't take them to the vet, couldn't find or figure out how to strategize equipment for them, and most importantly, ended up not wanting them once they reached, in all relativity, a modest size.

However your point about wild versus captive performance seems rational, but not as an excuse for free will run rampant in the trade.

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Re: DNA Confirms Nile Crocs in Florida

Post by WSTREPS » May 25th, 2016, 6:43 pm

The likelihood of intentional release of reptiles is not prevented by the existence of rescue agencies, or zoos. This is an experienced fact I can elaborate on at great length with many examples thrown into my life and work, and restless nights.
Where did I say anything is prevented ? Given the area involved and the circumstance's if we're going to play the "most likely " finger pointing game. My scenario as stated, Its highly unlikely " any one of the couple of juvenile crocodile's found over the years was the result of an intentional release. " , make's the most sense.

That the people who keep these animals don't fool around can easily be disproved by a simple youtube search. I also personally have dealt with individuals who got crocodilians who couldn't take them to the vet, couldn't find or figure out how to strategize equipment for them, and most importantly, ended up not wanting them once they reached, in all relativity, a modest size.
That cant legally happen in Florida, again the specific area we'er talking about.

You can't buy a crocodilian in Florida without first meeting all the requirement's to obtain the necessary permit for correctly keeping one. And its not easy. You have to have a thousand hours of documented experience signed by two licensed keepers, demonstrate your facility is in order meeting all the strict housing requirement's, list verifiable veterinary contacts. You need a disaster plan diagram, fill out an inventory list , You get inspected all before you get the permit. That's only the small species.

Large crocs like Nile crocodiles are CLASS 1. Unless your grandfathered in (Having a permitted facility for decades) forget about getting one at all, you cant do it. No Class I wildlife may be kept for personal use,

Nobody is messing around selling illegal crocodilians. Let alone Class 1 stuff. Does it really seem viable that people are coming from out of state with illegal Nile crocodiles and dumping them into the South Florida swamp. Or is more likely that somehow over the years a small croc might work its way out of a huge outdoor enclosure and find its way into the nearby swamp from an existing facility that has maintained a lot of crocs for a long time.

Ernie Eison

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Re: DNA Confirms Nile Crocs in Florida

Post by Kelly Mc » May 25th, 2016, 7:06 pm

The crocodilians (AM alligators) brought to my attention were all illegally obtained. That happened to me a lot, not just with reptiles.

Ernie I have an odd and involuntary scale operating my discernment with people. Reflect of it broken down is, I know I could trust you to husbandry any reptile, and even would my own. As long as it stayed with you.

But commercially I cant stomach what you still can.

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Re: DNA Confirms Nile Crocs in Florida

Post by mwentz » May 25th, 2016, 9:41 pm

When I see things like Nile Crocs being released or escaped, I have to wonder if it wasn't unregistered reptile breeders (like the article states), but likely some drug dealer. I obviously have zero evidence, but nile crocs feel like what somebody with a bunch of drug money who wants to show they are the biggest guy on the block gets. Maybe I am watching too much crime shows. But I imagine somebody dangling another over a railing over the croc pit to see who they ratted on.

On a more realistic note, people who are just keepers, even of the illegal stuff, have a hard time keeping it secret. I can imagine people with less ties to the keeper community and more to El Chapo or Escobar, are more apt to keep it secret. As a side note, didn't escobar have hippos? a large dangerous animal. Also: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... /?page=all

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Re: DNA Confirms Nile Crocs in Florida

Post by Kelly Mc » May 25th, 2016, 10:13 pm

You nailed it. And some of them were even decent keepers, with a lot of money they were willing to spend on their animals, but many aren't, especially the younger guys.

But with all of them the animals are not a priority and they are sacrificed in an instant if some chaotic change of affairs is imminent.

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Re: DNA Confirms Nile Crocs in Florida

Post by WSTREPS » May 26th, 2016, 12:53 pm

Before this topic gets sidetracked with alligators and drug lords. Let me clarify this situation.

The current known wild population of Nile Crocodile's in FLORIDA IS ZERO.

FACTS:

Researcher's have found no Nile crocodiles themselves. Since 1996 there have been a total of four found. None in what could be called the wild.

One escaped from its enclosure in 1996 or 1997 at Billie Swamp Safari and recaptured.This croc was never really free it was contained by a perimeter fence.

Two were found in residential areas, one captured by Robert Freer on 14 April 2009 on the house porch of a resident , the other found in a canal in Homestead.

One found in a tourist trap botanical garden.

We have DNA study's, radio tracking, climate matching, an avalanche of media coverage all about a non existent population of giant man eating crocodiles in Florida. There is no evidence that a single feral Nile crocodile currently exists in the state of Florida let alone a reproducing population.
This whole thing is nothing a but PUBLICITY STUNT. The reasoning behind it, obvious.

Ernie Eison

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Re: DNA Confirms Nile Crocs in Florida

Post by Kelly Mc » May 26th, 2016, 6:15 pm

Sorry for my part in the sidetrack Ernie.

The specifics on the crocs in question that you describe in your post are important details for sure, thanks for posting them.

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Re: DNA Confirms Nile Crocs in Florida

Post by hellihooks » May 26th, 2016, 6:24 pm

WSTREPS wrote:Before this topic gets sidetracked with alligators and drug lords. Let me clarify this situation.

The current known wild population of Nile Crocodile's in FLORIDA IS ZERO.

FACTS:

Researcher's have found no Nile crocodiles themselves. Since 1996 there have been a total of four found. None in what could be called the wild.

One escaped from its enclosure in 1996 or 1997 at Billie Swamp Safari and recaptured.This croc was never really free it was contained by a perimeter fence.

Two were found in residential areas, one captured by Robert Freer on 14 April 2009 on the house porch of a resident , the other found in a canal in Homestead.

One found in a tourist trap botanical garden.

We have DNA study's, radio tracking, climate matching, an avalanche of media coverage all about a non existent population of giant man eating crocodiles in Florida. There is no evidence that a single feral Nile crocodile currently exists in the state of Florida let alone a reproducing population.
This whole thing is nothing a but PUBICTY STUNT. The reasoning behind it, obvious.

Ernie Eison
:beer: ... a new 'reality program' would be my best guess... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Crocs n gators can interbreed? wow... learn something new every day... :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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