Hibernation questions

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Hibernation questions

Post by Kelly Mc » December 29th, 2015, 8:55 pm

The only way such conclusions of behavior could be complete would be by determining the subclinical point in controlled temperature, to delete thermal injury and its discomfort from the observational field.

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Soopaman
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Re: Hibernation questions

Post by Soopaman » December 29th, 2015, 10:06 pm

Kelly Mc wrote:The only way such conclusions of behavior could be complete would be by determining the subclinical point in controlled temperature, to delete thermal injury and its discomfort from the observational field.

How hard is it to understand, that despite deleterious effects, the observed pythons had no response to the fatally cold conditions?

They had no trigger to initiate taking shelter in the cold, and thus, despite physical damage, continued to act on programmed behaviors in the cold, and suffered the fatal consequences as they had no recognition of the effect occurring.

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Hibernation questions

Post by Kelly Mc » December 29th, 2015, 10:35 pm

Soopaman wrote:
Kelly Mc wrote:The only way such conclusions of behavior could be complete would be by determining the subclinical point in controlled temperature, to delete thermal injury and its discomfort from the observational field.

How hard is it to understand, that despite deleterious effects, the observed pythons had no response to the fatally cold conditions?

They had no trigger to initiate taking shelter in the cold, and thus, despite physical damage, continued to act on programmed behaviors in the cold, and suffered the fatal consequences as they had no recognition of the effect occurring.

I think its harder for you not to disagree with me unilaterally every time you ever respond to any of my posts, soopaman!

Everything you just posted about triggers, programmed behaviors, is supposition, and there are gaps in acuity under studied, that need to be included before such a heavy book is closed in an empirical final word.

Too many reptile related facts * have been time frozen in a circle as small as a single handful of authorities.

I am only saying that there are gaps. Difficult to surmount and some never considered, but not because they don't have veracity.

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Hibernation questions

Post by Kelly Mc » December 29th, 2015, 10:48 pm

The only way such conclusions of behavior could be complete would be by determining the subclinical point in controlled temperature, to delete thermal injury and its discomfort from the observational field.

Try reading this again soopaman, but pretend someone else said it.
Maybe it will be a different experience, or mitigated somehow to be at least reasonable to consider.

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Hibernation questions

Post by Kelly Mc » December 29th, 2015, 11:39 pm

I don't know what would be a better name for a band, Impervious or Cold Brain?

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WSTREPS
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Re: Hibernation questions

Post by WSTREPS » December 30th, 2015, 8:20 am

The Barkers observations were made with no data included on the physiological effects of hypothermia on subject pythons and how those effects, which could range from marginal to more extensive morbidities on membranes and tissues, could produce dysphoric activity from discomfort alone, with vasoconstriction and tissue rigidities, and other physically altering factors, standing on their own hard data'd merit alone.
Why would the Barkers include observations/details on the physiological effects of hypothermia ? That is putting the cart before the horse. The point of the Barkers paper was that the pythons did not exhibit cold weather survival instincts. The survival adaptation's snakes require to prevent the onset of hypothermia / death. When lethal cold is a reality, snakes that are adapted to survive in these situations are proactive to the danger cold presents not reactive.

The fact is the pythons repeatedly exhibit behavior's that are counter productive to cold weather survival. It's not about what happens after the snakes are already freezing to death. By then it's a moot point. It's about the snakes failure to protect themselves prior to the onset of dangerously cold temperature's, their suicidal willingness to abandon a warm shelter and venture off into lethal temperatures.

In every experiment that has tried to test the pythons cold weather adaptability. Different locations, cage settings, they all ended with the same results. The snakes did not show any adaptability to survive dangerously low temperature's. In fact the snakes in every instance displayed behavior that is counter productive to cold weather survival.

Snakes that are adaptive to cold weather survival are proactive not reactive, they don't make their move to safety after the temperature's become dangerously low. They react to signal's that tell them to seek shelter well before the temperature's become dangerously low.

The government paid scientist insisted the tropical pythons would instinctively adopt behavior that would save them from the cold. National Geographic filmed the famous Savannah River Ecology Lab experiment . The experiment that was designed by government paid scientist to prove the Burmese pythons would show cold weather adaptability.

The predictable result was all the pythons died, froze to death. The scientist involved with project kept this result a well hidden secret for nearly a year. National Geographic quickly scrapped the film. Why?

Had the snakes survived you can bet the story would have been front page news. Released to every major news outlet as soon as possible and National Geographic would have played that film on a loop.

Ernie Eison

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Hibernation questions

Post by Kelly Mc » January 2nd, 2016, 2:42 am

Excellent and thank you for your patience, and restrained manner with me.

I understand about putting the cart before the horse, and I did. I have a strong interest in the under studied i believe under estimated potential of compound factors influencing patterns of behavior, including pain, and distress. I almost detect (not from you, but a pervasive consensus) a kind of obstinacy about stressors and somatic factors being unimportant, which I find confounding in quest for deeper understanding of such discreet yet acutely sensitive animals.

Thank you again for your tolerance, you are very perceptive.

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Hibernation questions

Post by Kelly Mc » January 5th, 2016, 11:04 pm

WSTREPS wrote:
The Barkers observations were made with no data included on the physiological effects of hypothermia on subject pythons and how those effects, which could range from marginal to more extensive morbidities on membranes and tissues, could produce dysphoric activity from discomfort alone, with vasoconstriction and tissue rigidities, and other physically altering factors, standing on their own hard data'd merit alone.
Why would the Barkers include observations/details on the physiological effects of hypothermia ? That is putting the cart before the horse. The point of the Barkers paper was that the pythons did not exhibit cold weather survival instincts. The survival adaptation's snakes require to prevent the onset of hypothermia / death. When lethal cold is a reality, snakes that are adapted to survive in these situations are proactive to the danger cold presents not reactive.

The fact is the pythons repeatedly exhibit behavior's that are counter productive to cold weather survival. It's not about what happens after the snakes are already freezing to death. By then it's a moot point. It's about the snakes failure to protect themselves prior to the onset of dangerously cold temperature's, their suicidal willingness to abandon a warm shelter and venture off into lethal temperatures.

In every experiment that has tried to test the pythons cold weather adaptability. Different locations, cage settings, they all ended with the same results. The snakes did not show any adaptability to survive dangerously low temperature's. In fact the snakes in every instance displayed behavior that is counter productive to cold weather survival.

Snakes that are adaptive to cold weather survival are proactive not reactive, they don't make their move to safety after the temperature's become dangerously low. They react to signal's that tell them to seek shelter well before the temperature's become dangerously low.

The government paid scientist insisted the tropical pythons would instinctively adopt behavior that would save them from the cold. National Geographic filmed the famous Savannah River Ecology Lab experiment . The experiment that was designed by government paid scientist to prove the Burmese pythons would show cold weather adaptability.

The predictable result was all the pythons died, froze to death. The scientist involved with project kept this result a well hidden secret for nearly a year. National Geographic quickly scrapped the film. Why?

Had the snakes survived you can bet the story would have been front page news. Released to every major news outlet as soon as possible and National Geographic would have played that film on a loop.

Ernie Eison

More in response to the main body of your post is how eager the human psyche attaches itself to the inexplicable impression of "giant reptiles"

Documentaries about dinosaurs are completely preoccupied with "battles between prehistoric titans" as if no other life activities existed. I think its boring.

The stupid obsession with danger is boring.

It is seen even among researchers sometimes, still using circus style display methods of standing in a burly line - stretchin her out! For drama when its totally unnecessary. You can easily see how "big" a snake is by just looking. Or letting her crawl up beside a marked board.

The sooner humans get over the danger fetish with pythons and other iconic species that trigger it, the better we will be able to appreciate and learn their true nature.

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