Food for thought - turtles

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walk-about
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Food for thought - turtles

Post by walk-about »

I live in Kentucky where there is basically an 'open season' on turtles. Several species are permitted to be taken with a gun, bow or line (any kind of line)...or you could probably club the damn things with a stick and that would be fine also. Our state (KY Fish & Game) regs says that 'Snapping Turtles and Softshells are legal for the taking'. It does mention that the Alligator Snapping Turtle can not be taken...

Well that is great, but I would be willing to bet the farm that the random 'Joe-Bob' incapable of discerning an Alligator Snapping Turtle from a Common Snapping Turtle...nor would they care. Further more, I doubt that any wildlife compliance (LE) officer would 'care' enough to know either. That said, the bigger problem I have is with the obscurity in the term 'Softshell'. In Kentucky, we have two species: Spiny Softshell which is common and with a nearly statewide distribution and then there is the very uncommon, in fact rare even - Midland Smooth Softshell. It is found in only a dozen counties or so and has a state monitored status varying from special concern to endangered I would guess. And yet - both 'Softshells' and both killed indiscriminantly...and year round. Does this make sense?

I will hold nothing back here, yes - I love turtles and anyone who has seen my post on FHF will see many pics of them. They are ancient, beautiful and perfect for the most. I believe in hunting and living off the land as much as possible, but I just don't see the value of eating a turtle when there are so many fish out there - especially non-native fish like the over abundant Asian Carp which are tasty and need to be culled. Most river turtles have so much mercury in them and eating them is quite hazardous to one's health. But there is always someone who does. And apparently there is a big demand from China for US turtle meat.

My question is regarding other states, what is legal (means of taking and species) where you are regarding turtles and their harvest? And what species do you know of that might be impacted where you live from such harvest? Any thoughts or observations on this would be appreciated.

Thanks for reading,

Dave Frymire
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soulsurvivor
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Re: Food for thought - turtles

Post by soulsurvivor »

I agree - I find it sad that people eat turtles. They are one of my favorite critters! I honestly don't know all the laws here in FL about what turtles are legal to take, but I can tell you the gopher tortoise is protected and people still eat them.

~Bree
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Hadar
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Re: Food for thought - turtles

Post by Hadar »

As a pescatarian (some mollusca included, not kosher), I personally don't eat any meat other than fish and the fish I do eat needs to be sustainable and meet other qualifications I have. These qualifications are typically intelligence, cuteness, taste, procreation rate, lifespan, harvest technique or culture methods, location, etc. For example, Paddlefish are too cute to eat, cuttlefish and octopi are too smart, Patagonian toothfish (aka Chilean seabass) are too long lived, and so it goes. Long story short, you never want to go out to eat with me.

That being said, I used to work at an aquaculture facility and we would get turtles in the ponds all the time. The staff loved eating the turtles and would show me the photos of the giant female softshells (some of the largest I've seen) they would make into soup. I asked them not to kill all the turtles and ended up doing an isotope analysis using blood collected from the turtles to show the staff that they weren't eating the fish we were growing. The same study with nerodia didn't go over as well, I wasn't able to convince them that there is such a thing as a "good" snake at work. The repercussion of this was 2 years of having turtles delivered to me because people didn't want them on their land but agreed not to kill them. It was not ideal, at times I would have 2 plastic pools full of turtles. I'm not a fan of relocation so I tried to release the turtles as close to where they came from (in suitable habitat) without being on the property of the people who brought them to me. It is possible that the same turtle was brought to me multiple times, we only marked the turtles in our study.

One snapping turtle stayed at the facility for a few weeks because he came in dehydrated, covered in fungus, with his shell rotting, and starving. I worked with a couple of the university veterinarians to treat his shell and fed him cooked catfish. After that time he was healthy enough to be released so we put him in the retention pond on the property where the escapee fish go.

Many of these turtles were protected as long as they stayed at the wildlife refuge 15 minutes away from our facility but you can't tell wild animals where to live. They followed the stream that ran from the refuge to our ponds and made a home out of shallow ponds with warm water and sandy banks which are supplied with aquatic plants and fish food.

Although I loved how many herps there were in the south, that meant a lot more human-herp conflicts. Even at the wildlife refuge I had to stop undergraduate wildlife and fisheries students from using salamanders that they caught for fishing bait. An engineering student had the "great" idea to keep some "baby bullfrogs" he had found while gigging so he could fatten them up and eat them later. He was so proud that he showed me what he had and none of them were bullfrogs. He had gray treefrogs, barking treefrogs, and a pickerel frog. When I told him that none of them were bullfrogs he said that he would just feed them to his snake that he collected. This snake was in an aquarium with only water because he found the snake in the water so he decided that it didn't need land. Needless to say, I wasn't happy and he didn't keep those animals long and none of them were eaten. I'm still tempted to go back and get my wildlife officer certification so I can do more in these situations.
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walk-about
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Re: Food for thought - turtles

Post by walk-about »

Bree - that is crazy that people eat Gopher Tortises! Who knew, right? Crazy.

Heather - Your first paragraph had me rolling. Thanks for that info on state regs... I am going to go thru those later tonight, and also check out your site. Check out some of my turtle pics on Flickr if you can - punch in: Flickr Dave Frymire

Thanks,

Dave
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soulsurvivor
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Re: Food for thought - turtles

Post by soulsurvivor »

Yes, Dave, sad but true. I wrote a newspaper article about this very subject last year. It is typically older black folks here in the south that still eat gopher tortoises. It's a way of life they never gave up, even when the tortoises were granted federal protection.

~Bree
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Noah M
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Re: Food for thought - turtles

Post by Noah M »

I know it is illegal to sell any wild caught turtles from Florida. I had found a few Chicken turtles a few years back and posted my finds on here, and somebody had PMed me wanting to buy them. I checked the laws and saw that I couldn't. I wouldn't have sold them to this person anyway - I didn't keep them, I had just photographed them, and there was no guarantee I would find any more.

I also once helped a big peninsula cooter off the road down in Big Cypress and some guy in a truck rolled up mid photo shoot and wanted to know if he could have the turtle. I told him no, and he looked disappointed. I presumed he was going to eat it or use it for bait, or something.

As far as eating the gopher tortoise; I'm pretty sure this is a cultural thing. Some rural Floridians are part of the Florida Cracker lineage and continue certain practices just as their parents, grandparents, or great grandparents did. Though a protected species, in some locations the tortoise can be quite abundant, and I would imagine where Florida Crackers overlap with these pockets of high density there is some harvesting. I've heard stories of herpers coming across piles of tortoise shells from where hunters are stashing the remains. It probably is very difficult to convince some people to stop doing certain things when their family has been eating tortoise for generations. You also have to consider catching a gopher tortoise is not terribly difficult. Unless they're right at their burrow or in it, you can easily walk up to them and pick them up.

This is pure speculation, but I wonder if poverty has anything do with it too. If you don't make much money, live in low cost rural areas with limited economic opportunity, and the tortoise is a cultural delicacy, why not take one now and again to put food on your table? It is weird to think about it, but there are subsistence hunters in this country. I know this contributes some to off season hunting. I also am sure there are several people who fish without licenses, though licenses are pretty cheap.
simus343
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Re: Food for thought - turtles

Post by simus343 »

In Florida, I believe it is all months except start of May through end of July it is legal to take softshells at a rate of 1 per person per day. So all months but May, June, and July.

I also know that mud turtles and loggerhead musk turtles, a person can be in possession of two wild caught individuals - no permit or license required.

With license, in Florida you can be in possession of one native diamondback terrapin. With special education or scientific permits, more may be permitted.

Cooters/Sliders, and loggerheads (snapping turtles as defined by the regulations) are banned from harvest in Florida. The snapping turtle regulation was implemented in Florida to protect the Alligator Snapping Turtle. Similar to KY, where no one can differentiate (talking local yocals here) for the life of them, the Common Snapping Turtle and Florida Snapping Turtle are both affected by the law as well. On the opposite spectrum through, all three snappers are protected from harvest, not open to harvest.

As far as what my work with Gopher Tortoises here in Florida has taught me, in NW Florida its usually the white people eating them, not the black people. The rural "black community" seems much more aware of current issues. Here, they eat more fish than turtle meat. It isn't even the poor white people taking the tortoises either, while some of them still do too.

I have had well-off white people visit me at work and casually talk about all of their Gopher Tortoise eating exploits as though it didn't matter at all. I almost think they were doing it just because they were trying to piss me off and elicit some tree-hugger hippy response :roll:. I would say that I find it super amusing when they shut their traps when an FWC officer walks on by though haha.

A story I learned about while working with Gopher Tortoises, there were a few guys from N. Florida that got pulled over in central florida. When this happened, the officer noticed their pickup truck bed was full of gopher tortoises. They were arrested. When questioned with why they were catching the tortoises so far from their homes, they responded with "well we already ate all the Gopher Tortoises in our county." Somewhere at work one of my friends has a picture of the bed of their pickup. It was loaded with Gopher Tortoises. The tortoises were alive, rehabbed, and released in the collected counties. I'll leave it at that story, I can go on all day about stories I have heard that involve people illegally harvesting Gopher Tortoises, both good and bad.
ackee
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Re: Food for thought - turtles

Post by ackee »

Here in NJ Snapping Turtles can be taken with a fishing license, I think a limit of two per day. All other turtles are strictly protected. Snappers are not eaten very often. Most are taken in the Pinelands of South Jersey, where there is a long folk tradition.

Turtles have gotten their revenge. Some rural people began collecting Box Turtles to eat during the Great Depression. Box Turtles are immune to poisonous mushrooms. Amanita are a favorite food. A surprising number of turtle eaters died from eating toxin laden Box turtle meat, so many that NJ and Pennsylvania had to issue warnings.

If only their shells caused tires to blow out when run over.
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Re: Food for thought - turtles

Post by Coluber Constrictor »

In Alabama: bag limit 2 (I'm guessing per day, and I'm assuming a freshwater fishing license is required). Includes common snapping, painted, chicken, river cooter, FL cooter, slider, mud, loggerhead musk, stinkpot and all species of softshells. Limited to personal use only. Commercial use prohibited.
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Re: Food for thought - turtles

Post by Coluber Constrictor »

KY has no bag limit at all for turtles? That is disturbing if true.
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kevin h
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Re: Food for thought - turtles

Post by kevin h »

KY has no bag limit at all for turtles? That is disturbing if true.
KY has a lot of disturbing things wrong with it. However, I read about two years ago that you can take up to 4 individuals of any species as long as other laws don't apply. This may have changed since then but I wouldn't know.
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BillMcGighan
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Re: Food for thought - turtles

Post by BillMcGighan »

In Tennessee, "A sport fishing license is required and only the
common snapping turtle may be taken."
Tennessee fishing guide, which is handed out for free at any license center, does a reasonably good job of defining snappers from alligator snappers.

http://www.state.tn.us/twra/pdfs/fishguide.pdf - page 48.



Trot liners really can't help but catch softshells in some areas, but, if they cut the line close to the head, a good amount of turtles live on.


Of course, maybe turtles are not the cuddly nice animals we think! :lol: :lol: ;)

Here they aggressively take away the natural food supply (white bread) of muscovy ducks and white ibis, also threatening the 2 year old who was throwing the bread!!!! :lol: ;)


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Noah M
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Re: Food for thought - turtles

Post by Noah M »

I had a softshell bite me once :crazyeyes: The shell may be soft, but their mouths are not :!: :!:
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walk-about
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Re: Food for thought - turtles

Post by walk-about »

This is some great information to have and reading about how turtles are utilized, from I guess what might be considered as an economic perspective is very interesting.

Bree - I had no idea that people actually consumed Gopher Tortise in FL? Who knew? Crasy. I wonder if they dump them in a stew with polkweed and onions or something to that effect.

Captainjack0000 - You brought up some fantastic points regarding 'generations' of FL crackers and I guess what is just and has been accepted by them for so long. I have never seen a Gopher Tortise in my lifetime and would sure hope to one day.

Coluber Constrictor - Did I read that right....no less than eleven species of turtles that are legal to take in Bama??? That is just crazy. How much meat could there be on a Stinkpot and my oh my, I am thinking it just might not taste so good.

Kevin H - Yes sir, KY has many disturbing things wrong with it. Makes me sad sometimes.

ackee - Yes indeed...consuming Box Turtles can be a fatal endeavour. Great point. In KY, pretty much any critter can be eaten and yet I have never heard of anyone here eating Box Turtles.

Simus343 - The story you told of the guys in that truck is insane. And yet, I just see this in my mind actually playing out. Wow!

Bill - thanks for that information on those TN laws. I would have to disagree with you on one thing however. From my experience as a turtle researcher, most of these turtles that get hooked on limb lines and trot lines, often swallow that hook. Many hooks used today are made of stainless steal. These are not broken down by the turtle and yes, that turtle will die and pretty quick. I've got photos showing this. It is sad, brother. It angers me to no end. And I will pull any limb line I find because I view it as an absolute death sentence for the turtle. We have 14 turtle species in KY...and all but one of these are aquatic and exposed to these perils daily. Where in TN are you located? I live on border of KY/TN but in the west.

Thanks for all the great information.

Dave
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BillMcGighan
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Re: Food for thought - turtles

Post by BillMcGighan »

Many hooks used today are made of stainless steal.
Yeah, Dave, stainless instead of bronze has made the equation worse, though I don't see this practice stopped any time soon; it's too embedded.

Where in TN are you located? I live on border of KY/TN but in the west.
NE, Tricities, where VA, NC, and TN come together.
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Noah M
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Re: Food for thought - turtles

Post by Noah M »

I always heard that people made them into a stew. I also heard they would often cook them on their backs, using the shell as the pot (may be more myth than truth). We talked about this in an anthropology class. A student had written a paper about the modern Florida Cracker and traced some of the practices seen today back through multiple generations. It was a very interesting piece.

Here is a recipe from Smithsonian. I do not condone eating tortoise, but it is a part of Florida's cultural heritage.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/people-pl ... 59/?no-ist

Also known as the "Hoover chicken," the gopher tortoise was a staple in the diets of Minorcans, Florida natives, and Depression-era families. The exact composition of Gopher Tortoise Stew depended on what ingredients were available at the time, but this is a typical recipe. Today, the gopher tortoise is a protected species, but you can substitute alligator or pork.

Cut meat into 2-inch pieces and simmer in salted water until tender. In a large Dutch oven, fry some salt pork until crisp and the fat is rendered. Add meat and brown. Add a generous amount of chopped onion, some chopped bell pepper, minced garlic, diced tomatoes and simmer for 20 minutes.

Then add the water the meat was cooked in, some diced potatoes, a few bay leaves, salt and black pepper to taste, and a fresh datil pepper or a dash of datil pepper sauce. Simmer for 1½ to 2 hours over low heat. If necessary, thicken stew with a little flour dissolved in water, or some mashed hard-boiled egg yolks. For those that could afford the luxury of dry sherry, a dash would be added just before serving.

Serve piping hot with rice and corn pone.
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soulsurvivor
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Re: Food for thought - turtles

Post by soulsurvivor »

captainjack0000 wrote: This is pure speculation, but I wonder if poverty has anything do with it too. If you don't make much money, live in low cost rural areas with limited economic opportunity, and the tortoise is a cultural delicacy, why not take one now and again to put food on your table?
I do not believe this to be the case. I live in an affluent area, and a couple months ago, I witnessed an older black couple in their church clothes stop their shiny red late model Chevy Silverado in front of the neighbor's yard, because they saw two gopher tortoises. I watched and listened to their conversation for about 5 minutes. They got out of their truck and were arguing about whether or not to try to catch them (which would have involved trespassing). The woman was all for it, the man was not. Eventually they got back in their truck and drove away. I reported the incident to FWC, but since I was not in a position to see their license plate, nothing will be done.

~Bree
simus343
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Re: Food for thought - turtles

Post by simus343 »

People eat them because their parents did it, and their parents did it, and so on. It doesn't matter how rich or poor the person is - at least that's the way it is here in NW Fla.

People basically seem to eat Gopher Tortoises just because they can, until they get caught at least.
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Noah M
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Re: Food for thought - turtles

Post by Noah M »

In defense of my argument, my thinking was somewhere along the lines of this.

The cost of living in cities is often much higher than in many rural settings. Florida's economy is driven mainly by tourism and population growth. Many, if not most, urbanites in Florida moved here from other areas of the region, US, or Caribbean. They're not going to have the cultural background that supports eating tortoises. It is predominately going to be the rural dwellers who have that particular lineage. There must be an element of ruralness to it, because this is also where the tortoises live. These rural folks many not be "poor" as we think of them, but compared to some of the city dwellers they may be. There are certainly urban poor, but their urban setting removes them from having access to the tortoises, and as mentioned, they're probably not descendants of the crackers.

Lastly, many of the wealthy I think of living in the countryide are wealthy retirees, either from cities in Florida or elsewhere in the country. Many of these people are tired of the cityscape and buy up houses in the suburbs or rural fringes. I can't image a bunch of a rural retired people from the cities hunting tortoise.

I'm not trying to portray the tortoise eaters as being backwater types or anything. I'm looking at this purely from a socioeconomic status perspective. I'm hypothesizing that people with the cracker lineage are more likely to be poorer than those without it, and that tortoise consumption is probably highest among the area of overlap between having the cracker linage and living in the rural parts of the state, which in and of itself may suggest a lower socioeconomic class.
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Re: Food for thought - turtles

Post by Barry R »

Indiana has some crazy turtle laws, Box Turtles are totally protected, but you can run over them all day long, and don't get caught
getting one off the road! Common Snapper, Smooth and Spiny Softshell can be taken with a license, bag limit is 25, posession limit
is 50! The last Alligator Snapper I'm aware of in IN. was found in the 80's.
Image105_3681 by Barry R, on Flickr
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