Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

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John Delgado
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Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by John Delgado »

Friends ... I have a friend who is asking to define in detail the ststus of Red Diamond - Crotalus Ruber in Califonia...

Now, I'll say this first -- You know me, I DO NOT believe in dispatching rattlesnakes, and I for sure DO NOT believe in collecting. I'm answering theses questions someone is asking me because she has a friend who wants to hunt and kill Red Diamonds for the skin to make a belt :crazyeyes: And she wants to head him off with LAW.

The question is can a Red Diamond be dispatched legally at your home for protection?

What is a bag limit pertain to hunting for meat or does it pertain to 'collecting' for pets?

Please help me to understand what the link and text means below so I can explain and be correct -- Thank you in advance, jd

She is a Fire Fighter in Southern California and she is a good person. I want to help her to help him ... but I want to be able to explain.

As per text and link below:

From: CA Dept Fish & Game - Regulations 2015 - 2016
LINK: https://nrm.dfg.ca.gov/FileHandler.a...D=93497&inline

From: Page 22
5.60. REPTILES.
(a) Only the following reptiles may be taken under
the authority of a sportfishing license, subject to the
restrictions in this section. No sport fishing license
is required for the sport take of any rattlesnake, but
bag and possession limits do apply. No reptiles shall
be taken from ecological reserves designated by
the commission in Section 630 or from state parks,
or national parks or monuments.
(b) Limit: The limit for each of the species listed
below is two, unless otherwise provided. Limit,
as used in this section, means daily bag and
possession limit.

Page 23 <jump to the following>
(62) Red diamond rattlesnake (Crotalus ruber): Limit: Zero (0)
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SurfinHerp
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by SurfinHerp »

Hi John,

As I understand the regulations, you can legally "take", in other words 'kill', a red diamond rattlesnake (if it's not on protected land), but you cannot possess one.

A bag limit of zero means that it's illegal to keep a red diamond rattler as a captive or to use its skin to make a belt.

I believe the logic behind this rule is that the State of CA doesn't want to make it a crime for someone to kill a red diamond rattlesnake found in their yard.



Jeff
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John Delgado
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by John Delgado »

Thank you Jeff -- I understand now.
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by KichiMark »

Excellent response Jeff :).
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Fundad
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by Fundad »

You can not legally Take a Red Diamond Rattlesnake, this includes killing or collecting.

(62) Red diamond rattlesnake (Crotalus ruber): Limit: Zero (0)

This regulation is clear. LIMIT is Zero

If the limit is ZERO that means the "take" limit, including "killing"

I am not sure why some think you can kill one as you can NOT!!

Zero Take does allow for you to photograph it, MOVE IT out of your yard, and otherwise manipulate that animal. Unlike those animals where NO TAKE is a allowed.

Brian Hinds
California Chapter President
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ricrabt
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by ricrabt »

I believe the wording on the part that states take any rattlesnake is an old line and was overlooked after the new change took place. Hopefully it will be cleared up by next years printing. ...
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by John Delgado »

Fundad wrote:You can not legally Take a Red Diamond Rattlesnake, this includes killing or collecting.

(62) Red diamond rattlesnake (Crotalus ruber): Limit: Zero (0)

This regulation is clear. LIMIT is Zero

If the limit is ZERO that means the "take" limit, including "killing"

I am not sure why some think you can kill one as you can NOT!!

Zero Take does allow for you to photograph it, MOVE IT out of your yard, and otherwise manipulate that animal. Unlike those animals where NO TAKE is a allowed.

Brian Hinds
California Chapter President
Thank you Brian ... this is what I thought too.

May I quote you ??? In a CA Firearms Forum http://www.calguns.net/ - For a female Firefighter who is trying to convince her male friend that he CANNOT hunt, locate and kill a Red Diamond Rattlesnake for protection, NOT for meat, NOT for a belt ... NOT for any reason whatsoever.
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by KichiMark »

Fundad wrote:You can not legally Take a Red Diamond Rattlesnake, this includes killing or collecting.

(62) Red diamond rattlesnake (Crotalus ruber): Limit: Zero (0)

This regulation is clear. LIMIT is Zero

If the limit is ZERO that means the "take" limit, including "killing"

I am not sure why some think you can kill one as you can NOT!!

Zero Take does allow for you to photograph it, MOVE IT out of your yard, and otherwise manipulate that animal. Unlike those animals where NO TAKE is a allowed.

Brian Hinds
California Chapter President
But in order to move it wouldn't that be a type of "take" which is a no go? What if a home owner has one in their property and kills one for protection of themselves or family?

This is what I find confusing with emphasis on sport.

5.60. REPTILES.
(a) Only the following reptiles may be taken under the authority of a sportfishing license, subject to the restrictions in this section. No sportfishing license is required for the sport take of any rattlesnake, but bag and possession limits do apply. No reptiles shall be taken from ecological reserves designated by the commission in Section 630 or from state parks, or national parks or monuments"

So as long as they have the wording of sport in there I find it rather hard for someone in defense to get in trouble. I am not trying to be argumentative but want some clarification. Man, laws can be so difficult to understand at times haha.
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by rpecora »

Jeff has it right in my opinion. You have to read the whole section to be able to understand it's context.
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by KichiMark »

rpecora wrote:Jeff has it right in my opinion. You have to read the whole section to be able to understand it's context.
It is what I was thinking as well with the "sport" word before the take. If someone is actively looking for them I can see the "0" limit with all rules being applied but if one popped up in someones house and they killed it that is not a "sporting" action.
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by Fundad »

I am right, I have a number you guys can call if you need clarification.

Zero Bag limit=means that none may be killed.
This is different than no take.

You guys can say what you want, but we worked on language for other species with the CDFW that included
Zero bag limits for others species we were proposing.

That way herpers could peruse and detain "to photograph" some species, with a "Zero bag limt" instead of the current "No Take" some species have.
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by Fundad »

KichiMark
But in order to move it wouldn't that be a type of "take" which is a no go? What if a home owner has one in their property and kills one for protection of themselves or family?
Yes, but a Zero bag limit is not a "No Take" It means you may not kill, collect, or bag, and that if must be released. Fishing regualations for catch and release fishing often have a ZERO bag limit instead of no take.

See the difference?
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by Fundad »

John Delgado Wrote:
Thank you Brian ... this is what I thought too.

May I quote you ??? In a CA Firearms Forum http://www.calguns.net/ - For a female Firefighter who is trying to convince her male friend that he CANNOT hunt, locate and kill a Red Diamond Rattlesnake for protection, NOT for meat, NOT for a belt ... NOT for any reason whatsoever.
Yes you may quote me, in fact please do.

Brian Hinds
California Chapter President
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John Delgado
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by John Delgado »

.
Okay Brian Hinds ... I'm with you ... "zero bag" means no take, no harvest, no collecting ... and no kill for family/home protection...?

Is the following text from the CDFW headed in the right direction...?

Here is a link to California Freshwater Sport Fishing Regulations https://nrm.dfg.ca.gov/FileHandler.ashx ... 497&inline

Basic Rules and Regulations (pertaining to California's native reptiles and amphibians) listed under "General Provisions and Definitions"

Definition of "Bag and Possession Limit"
Page 11
1.17. BAG AND POSSESSION LIMIT.

No more than one daily bag limit of each kind
of fish, amphibian, reptile, mollusk or crustacean
named in these regulations may be taken or
possessed by any one person unless otherwise
authorized; regardless of whether they are fresh,
frozen, or otherwise preserved. Exceptions: See
Sections 7.00, 7.50(a), 27.60(c), and 195, Title 14,
CCR.

Definition of "Take"
Page 14
1.80. TAKE.

Hunt, pursue, catch, capture or kill fish, amphibians,
reptiles, mollusks, crustaceans or invertebrates or
attempting to do so.

Chapter 2. Statewide Regulations for Fishing and Frogging in Inland Waters Provisions and Definitions

Page 22
5.60. REPTILES.
(a) Only the following reptiles may be taken under
the authority of a sportfishing license, subject to the
restrictions in this section. No sportfishing license
is required for the sport take of any rattlesnake, but
bag and possession limits do apply. No reptiles shall
be taken from ecological reserves designated by
the commission in Section 630 or from state parks,
or national parks or monuments.
(b) Limit: The limit for each of the species listed
below is two, unless otherwise provided. Limit,
as used in this section, means daily bag and
possession limit.

Page 23
(62) Red diamond rattlesnake (Crotalus ruber): Limit: Zero (0)

I collected all the above data with the helpful direction of California Herps . com http://www.californiaherps.com/info/herpinglaws.html
California State Rules and Regulations Regarding Hunting and Collecting California Reptiles and Amphibians for March 1, 2015 - February 29, 2016.
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by KichiMark »

I understand clearly but….

Page 22
5.60. REPTILES.
(a) Only the following reptiles may be taken under
the authority of a sportfishing license, subject to the
restrictions in this section. No sportfishing license
is required for the sport take of any rattlesnake, but
bag and possession limits do apply. No reptiles shall
be taken from ecological reserves designated by
the commission in Section 630 or from state parks,
or national parks or monuments.
(b) Limit: The limit for each of the species listed
below is two, unless otherwise provided. Limit,
as used in this section, means daily bag and
possession limit.

What exactly is "sport" take? I can see this leading to some problems and if it were to be reworded to mean something different then I suggest deleting the sport before the take in future editions.

Also one can not be killed even with the endangerment of human life?
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by rpecora »

Limit, as used in this section, means daily bag and possession limit.
The limit as defined above in that section is specifically for reptiles and amphibians that one would need to abide by and is for the sport take and/or collecting and I believe is it's intent as we know this section of the regulation to be is about. The "Limit" is zero for the Ruber. So yeah you cannot kill/collect or posses a Ruber per that section as you can with other reptiles or amphibians listed that have a limit in that section.

I don't believe it would be against the law or a violation of that section to kill a Ruber on your property (not that I would condone it) if it were to injure anyone or pose an immediate threat or otherwise be deemed to be a hazard to life or property. There are other ways to deal with it for us so experienced, but to those that aren't so experienced then killing it is a reasonable act. I highly doubt it would be illegal to do so under those circumstances. To just kill it to kill it for the fun of it say or to make a belt out of it while on one's property no doubt would be considered a violation if reported as such.

It's a fine line I believe depending on the circumstances.

All respects!
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by Gary N »

The only things I see in question are what exactly a "zero" bag and possession limit means, and what does "sport take" mean, and is it different from "take." I agree with KichiMark that "sport" seems to be redundant and adds confusion, and should be removed, since it implies that there are different types of "take" but different types of "take" are not defined in the regulations. But that needs to be clarified by someone at CDFW.

Since C. ruber is on the list of snakes that can be taken but the bag and possession limit is "zero", then why is ruber on the list at all? If no take of any kind at all is allowed, why is it even shown on the list? Fundad answered this question by saying that a "zero" bag limit means catch-and-release only, as it does with fish, with no killing the animal allowed and no use of the carcass. This makes sense.

Don't forget that a CA State Law decrees that no license is needed to "take" a rattlesnake. That was not decided by the CDFW. Therefore they are required by law to put C. ruber on the take list. The zero limit seems to be the only way the CDFW can deal with a rattlesnake that is legally protected and also legally unprotected.

I haven't confirmed this with anyone at CDFW and I'm not a lawyer, but my interpretation is that you can catch a C. ruber and re-locate it but not kill it. That would also explain why the species is on the list - to allow property owners to protect themselves by removing and relocating a snake found on their property even if they can't kill it because it is threatened and protected. But that begs the question - what time limits are set for release after catching? Minutes, hours? And to safely catch and release a rattlesnake, you'd have to restrain it first, and that seems to be prohibited in the "zero" bag and possession limit. Does this mean you can pick it up with tools or by hand, but not restrain it in a container? Do you know anything about that, Fundad? It's much simpler with fish that you can just toss back in the water, maybe after taking a trophy selfie or two.

Wouldn't it be great if CDFW added more protected species to the take list with a zero bag limit? That way we could all legally engage in the sort of catch-and-release herping most of us like to do also with those protected species.
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by hellihooks »

I'm sad to report that some people do hunt and kill rattlesnake for 'sport'... makes them feel all 'manly' i guess... :roll:

Also... what with the recent fires in the Cajon and transverse ranges... the point was raised (admittedly by me) that Firefighters routinely kill rattlesnakes while fighting wildfires, rather than doing something else. Can firefighters kill ruber, while fighting a fire??? :?
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by rpecora »

There is no doubt in my mind that "Bag" as used in the subject section..."Bag and possession"...refers to live take. It seems pretty clear to me, but I take things a bit literal sometimes.
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by hellihooks »

I raised the 'bag' vs 'possession' question, in a slightly different context. just a while back... http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... =6&t=22022
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by KichiMark »

hellihooks wrote:I raised the 'bag' vs 'possession' question, in a slightly different context. just a while back... http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... =6&t=22022
Thanks for the link. It really shows how the laws can be interpreted in different ways which to me can be a bit frustrating since I like my laws to be black and white :).

I didn't know firefighters kill rattlesnakes they find fighting fires (never crossed my mind) and I would imagine they run across a bunch with the crotes escaping the fires. I bet in some cases more rubers are killed this way than your average Joe hiking or clearing stuff in his yard. Also interesting since they also fight fires in national parks, monuments and other areas where nothing is supposed to be taken or killed.
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by hellihooks »

Some firefighters may just fling crotes and other snakes out of their way, with hand tools... but then they have the addittional problem of one of them possibly getting tagged... so... I BELIEVE (and have witnessed) that killing rattlesnakes is standard protocol. This is not to besmirch nor condemn Firefighters, and the incredible job they do, at huge personal risk.

I just wish there was some way to save these snakes... but i can think of no practical solution. WAYYYY back in the day... I would go to the front line of wildfires and rescue snakes, and fire fighters were mostly cool with it... but I just don't see that being allowed nowadays. :?
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by Fundad »

Garyn Wrote:
Wouldn't it be great if CDFW added more protected species to the take list with a zero bag limit? That way we could all legally engage in the sort of catch-and-release herping most of us like to do also with those protected species.
We are working on adding that language into the regulations, but this last go around it was rejected by the Law Enforcement Division. We have not given up on having this added....

This is something we may end up going to the commission for.

Fundad
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by Gary N »

Fundad Wrote:

We are working on adding that language into the regulations, but this last go around it was rejected by the Law Enforcement Division. We have not given up on having this added....

This is something we may end up going to the commission for.

Fundad

I hope you can get that to happen. It would be great for us, but I understand why Law Enforcement rejected it. It makes it almost impossible for them to cite someone for illegal possession.

This means that the zero bag limit for C. ruber is not the same as catch-and-release. The word I just got from Laura at CDFW is that Law Enforcement says that it is not legal to take, kill, or possess C. ruber at all. It would be up to LE what to do regarding enforcing the law if they discovered that someone killed one in a safety situation on private property, but technically they could cite someone if they wanted to.
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by KichiMark »

Gary N wrote:Fundad Wrote:

We are working on adding that language into the regulations, but this last go around it was rejected by the Law Enforcement Division. We have not given up on having this added....

This is something we may end up going to the commission for.

Fundad

I hope you can get that to happen. It would be great for us, but I understand why Law Enforcement rejected it. It makes it almost impossible for them to cite someone for illegal possession.

This means that the zero bag limit for C. ruber is not the same as catch-and-release. The word I just got from Laura at CDFW is that Law Enforcement says that it is not legal to take, kill, or possess C. ruber at all. It would be up to LE what to do regarding enforcing the law if they discovered that someone killed one in a safety situation on private property, but technically they could cite someone if they wanted to.
I really hope you can do that too Fundad, it would be awesome.

Thanks again Gary for your looking into the matter further. :beer: .
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by nightdriver »

I'm sad to report that some people do hunt and kill rattlesnake for 'sport'... makes them feel all 'manly' i guess... :roll:

Also... what with the recent fires in the Cajon and transverse ranges... the point was raised (admittedly by me) that Firefighters routinely kill rattlesnakes while fighting wildfires, rather than doing something else. Can firefighters kill ruber, while fighting a fire??? :?


You didn't hear it from me... but some fire agencies have a written policy in place to kill all snakes they get called out to by the public....luckily, most/some of the fire guys don't kill the non-crotes. It would be interesting to hear a CDFW opinion on the legality of this.

-nightdriver
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by John Delgado »

Thank you GaryN - really appreciate your involvement in this thread. Nice job :)
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by KichiMark »

nightdriver wrote:
I'm sad to report that some people do hunt and kill rattlesnake for 'sport'... makes them feel all 'manly' i guess... :roll:

Also... what with the recent fires in the Cajon and transverse ranges... the point was raised (admittedly by me) that Firefighters routinely kill rattlesnakes while fighting wildfires, rather than doing something else. Can firefighters kill ruber, while fighting a fire??? :?


You didn't hear it from me... but some fire agencies have a written policy in place to kill all snakes they get called out to by the public....luckily, most/some of the fire guys don't kill the non-crotes. It would be interesting to hear a CDFW opinion on the legality of this.

-nightdriver

Back when I worked as a guard at universal studios there was a king snake found in one of their buildings adjacent to a large grassy field (I herped it till I left :) ) and at first the dispatcher called the fire station but NO ONE wanted to get near it haha. Eventually a guard went and grabbed it and put it in the field (not me….wasn't working that day). It is rather cool how much herps are found on that lot and close to some attractions (found some many black bellied salamanders it was crazy). Eventually they would call me over to I.D. stuff but most of the time it was gopher snakes.
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by rpecora »

This means that the zero bag limit for C. ruber is not the same as catch-and-release. The word I just got from Laura at CDFW is that Law Enforcement says that it is not legal to take, kill, or possess C. ruber at all. It would be up to LE what to do regarding enforcing the law if they discovered that someone killed one in a safety situation on private property, but technically they could cite someone if they wanted to.
Exactly
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by Gary N »

Gary N wrote:The only things I see in question are what exactly a "zero" bag and possession limit means, and what does "sport take" mean, and is it different from "take." I agree with KichiMark that "sport" seems to be redundant and adds confusion, and should be removed, since it implies that there are different types of "take" but different types of "take" are not defined in the regulations. But that needs to be clarified by someone at CDFW.
Looks like I was mistaken about this. The only place "sport take" shows up in the 2015 fishing regulations is when it refers to rattlesnakes, but it is used along with "commercial take" in other documents regarding fish and waterfowl. I presume, then, that "sport take" is used in reference only to rattlesnakes in order to emphasize that commercial take of rattlesnakes is prohibited. This makes sense since rattlesnakes are the species of herp most likely to be taken commercially and sold for their meat and skin (along with Bullfrogs.) I can't find any Fish and Game code or regulation or commercial license that applies to the commercial take of rattlesnakes. They are not included in the commercial fishing license. If anybody knows something that I have overlooked, let me know.
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by chris_mcmartin »

Gary N wrote: I presume, then, that "sport take" is used in reference only to rattlesnakes in order to emphasize that commercial take of rattlesnakes is prohibited.
If that is indeed the intent (and I'd say it is), wouldn't it be nice if they could just spell that out in the regs more clearly? It's not like they're paying by the word when writing the regs... :?
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by Brian Hubbs »

This is all silly...the ruber is the least likely rattlesnake to harm anyone unless they step on it. Then, it would be kinda late to kill it. I have never even seen a ruber rattle, let alone threaten me with a defensive posture...If they want a belt, go kill some damned helleri...or better yet, scutes... :thumb:
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by KichiMark »

Brian Hubbs wrote:This is all silly...the ruber is the least likely rattlesnake to harm anyone unless they step on it. Then, it would be kinda late to kill it. I have never even seen a ruber rattle, let alone threaten me with a defensive posture...If they want a belt, go kill some damned helleri...or better yet, scutes... :thumb:
Or just get some faux snake skin haha. While I agree it may seem silly it is great having the dialogue and the research. People can imagine all kinds of scenarios so it is best to get everything covered to the best of our abilities. Besides, it keeps things interesting in this place. :lol: .
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by Gary N »

Brian Hubbs wrote: I have never even seen a ruber rattle, let alone threaten me with a defensive posture...
Well now you have...

Image
http://www.californiaherps.com/movies/c ... ing509.mp4
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by Brian Hubbs »

OK, so how long did you have to piss it off to get it to rattle? :lol:
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by Gary N »

Brian Hubbs wrote:OK, so how long did you have to piss it off to get it to rattle? :lol:
All I had to do was mention your name…
But seriously, I agree with you - they don't seem to be very enthusiastic performers. Klauber even calls them "a notably peaceful rattler" and puts them on the bottom of his list of rattlers quick to anger.
hellihooks
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Joined: June 8th, 2010, 8:12 am
Location: Hesperia, California.
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Re: Red Diamond 'Protected Species' Please Explain

Post by hellihooks »

while i agree that ruber are the least irascible of Ca's big 5... when it comes to 'den defense' they can be very agressive. I found a female at the base of the rock... put her up on the rock to take a pic, when the male came up from the back of the rock, advanced to in front of the female, till she made it to a hole behind the rock, and he then followed her down the hole... ONE of these dang days I'm gonna remember that I have a video function on my camera... :roll: :lol:
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female heading for saftey...
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