Bitten - A Gallery of Horrors

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Hans Breuer (twoton)
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Bitten - A Gallery of Horrors

Post by Hans Breuer (twoton) » June 7th, 2015, 8:21 pm

Site disclaimer: “Bitten” is a Gallery of Photos of the horrors that result when a snake bites human flesh – they are graphic in nature, and may be distressing to sensitive individuals and young children – Please proceed at your own risk”

http://liphresearch.com/venomneutral/bitten/

Please share this on social media. Stuff like this can't be shown enough. Maybe it will keep one or two fools from making the worst mistake of their lives.

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John Delgado
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Re: Bitten - A Gallery of Horrors

Post by John Delgado » June 7th, 2015, 9:01 pm

Saved -- Thank you for posting :)

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Bitten - A Gallery of Horrors

Post by Kelly Mc » June 8th, 2015, 12:21 am

Sheesh :(

If that don't get a cowboy to pull it together on the road to Damascus, nothing will.

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Ruxs
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Re: Bitten - A Gallery of Horrors

Post by Ruxs » June 8th, 2015, 3:36 am

Rules:
1. Don't get bitten
2. Don't get bitten
3. Don't get bitten

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kansascrote
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Re: Bitten - A Gallery of Horrors

Post by kansascrote » June 8th, 2015, 3:49 am

Nobody ever plans to get bitten!
Even if you have been bitten the next one may be the one you react to!
Stupid people take stupid chances!
In our hobby this is something we should always think about!
How many of us know of people dying because they wanted a better photo
Or they did not want the animal to get away?
Great post, We all need to be reminded every now and then!

MCHerper
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Re: Bitten - A Gallery of Horrors

Post by MCHerper » June 8th, 2015, 5:08 am

So if you need to get envenomated, elapids are the way to go...

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Antonsrkn
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Re: Bitten - A Gallery of Horrors

Post by Antonsrkn » June 8th, 2015, 7:30 am

I was unlucky enough to see a Bothrops asper bite a few months ago. Scary stuff. Everyone be careful out there.

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John Delgado
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Re: Bitten - A Gallery of Horrors

Post by John Delgado » June 9th, 2015, 9:35 pm

Those of us who work with venomous herps can't see pics like these too much ... I have made mistakes, close calls? - NO...! I have made mistakes that could have been not so good for me if the rattler decided to take advantage.

BUT ... I will say this, just when you think you may be close, but you think 'it's okay, I'll be okay' Like a flash of light, a zap of a lightning bolt and you are tagged.

These linked OP images ... horrifying, disgusting, sickening ... keep in mind you are only inches from it happening to you.

I've seen with my own eyes a Northern Pacific Rattlesnake lunge an entire body length, NOT a strike ... a lunge.

An full body length ... I have video of it. And if they can lunge that far, they can strike that far.

Be safe out there, you can never be TOO safe ... keep distance, DO NOT take chances.

The lunge is at 2:30

Please pardon the handling -- This video was before I knew about 'in situ'


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John Martin
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Re: Bitten - A Gallery of Horrors

Post by John Martin » June 9th, 2015, 10:15 pm

Here's another good one (sorry, don't know how to imbed). May have been posted on here before, not sure. Strike occurs at beginning of video, the rest is the camera tracking the snake scent tracking, locating, and beginning to ingest the prey. There's also one lucky, dumb-arse dove in the video :D . The strike itself is FOOD FOR THOUGHT!

And Hans, thanks for the awesome dinnertime pics :beer: .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3bScZMypPU

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Hans Breuer (twoton)
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Re: Bitten - A Gallery of Horrors

Post by Hans Breuer (twoton) » June 10th, 2015, 2:19 am

And then, there are of course the complete morons who pick up anything they don't know jack about, because they THINK they do:

Borneo Dispatches #24: The Coral Snake Mistake

John Martin wrote:And Hans, thanks for the awesome dinnertime pics :beer: .
Glad I could kickstart your appetite!

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Re: Bitten - A Gallery of Horrors

Post by MCHerper » June 10th, 2015, 4:57 am

I looked again at the gallery, can anyone tell me more about the hognose bite? I thought that their venom was specific to toads and that they posed no threat to humans? Looks like a pretty bad bite in the picture.

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ZantiMissKnit
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Re: Bitten - A Gallery of Horrors

Post by ZantiMissKnit » June 10th, 2015, 5:17 am

Yeah...this is why I gladly remain not confident around hots.

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Antonsrkn
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Re: Bitten - A Gallery of Horrors

Post by Antonsrkn » June 10th, 2015, 6:39 am

MCHerper wrote:I looked again at the gallery, can anyone tell me more about the hognose bite? I thought that their venom was specific to toads and that they posed no threat to humans? Looks like a pretty bad bite in the picture.
I have seen that series with the hognose before, from what I recall it was a captive western Hog, but you can tell that much from the photos anyways, he was feeding it or something and it clamped on his finger, where he let it stay and chew on him for some time. As you can see the result was a good bit of blood and some swelling, the swelling from what I recall affected his entire hand to some degree but gradually dissipated. It wasn't life threatening nor as bad as it looks in the photo after getting cleaned up, seems a bit silly to have a hognose up there with all the dangerous/medically significant snakes but I'm guessing it wasn't that easy to find photos of colubrid envenomations so they went with what they had. Over the years I have seen a few other photos of hoggie envenomations and thats probably the most extreme, again cause he let it chew on him, the reactions seem to range from nothing but a few drops of blood to what you'll see in the link below, most often I think theres a bit of localized swelling or nothing at all however..

I was actually able to find a link to the original report this guy wrote on his experience for you.
http://www.herpnet.net/bite/


Hans, I still remember that story about the coralsnake, still hair-raising to think about. I had some friends that had a similiar experience with a bothrops asper a few years back in costa rica, they came across it and didn't know what it was so they picked it up. They posed for a few photos with it while holding it with two tiny sticks (think pencils). My jaw dropped when I saw those photos, I made sure to drum the point home that its shocking that they got away with it the once to never do anything like it again cause you don't get that lucky twice! aaaaaaannnnd I'm still jealous of your calliophis, awesome snakes.

MCHerper
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Re: Bitten - A Gallery of Horrors

Post by MCHerper » June 10th, 2015, 10:26 am

Thanks Antonsrkn!

double d
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Re: Bitten - A Gallery of Horrors

Post by double d » June 10th, 2015, 4:29 pm

So by the photos the copperhead looked like it Caused more damage than the cottonmouth . Which venom is more potent ? Copperhead or cottonmouth any thoughts?

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Antonsrkn
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Re: Bitten - A Gallery of Horrors

Post by Antonsrkn » June 10th, 2015, 8:27 pm

According to the chart below, looks like the cottonmouth has an LD50 IV (intravenous) rating of 2.044 mg/kg while a copperhead has 2.7 mg/kg, this would suggest that the cottonmouth is more venomous but then things get screwy if you look at the LD50 SC (Subcutaneous) where the cottonmouth has 25.8 mg/kg and the copperhead has 25.6 mg/kg so there it seems like the copperhead has more potent venom...

http://snakedatabase.org/pages/LD50.php

Can't vouch for the reliability of said chart but your question got me curious as well. That chart is crazy there are a few species I would have regarded as harmless or mildly venomous thrown in with snakes I'd call downright dangerous, i guess alot of it comes down to venom yield and delivery.

Another chart I looked at with LD50s seems to say something different about cottonmouths and copperheads....
http://www.seanthomas.net/oldsite/ld50tot.html

According to this one the intravenous LD50 of the cottonmouth as compared to the copperhead is either significantly more venomous or just barely depending on which sub-species are being compared.

We don't know the backstory behind the photos either so its hard to use them to judge anything, how big was the snake in question? Was it a feeding response? How long did the victim wait before seeking medical help? Etc... too many variables to judge the potency of the venom just from the photos.

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Martti Niskanen
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Re: Bitten - A Gallery of Horrors

Post by Martti Niskanen » June 11th, 2015, 2:16 am

Comparing LD50s is a bit silly unless you're a white mouse and take venom yields into account.

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Re: Bitten - A Gallery of Horrors

Post by MCHerper » June 11th, 2015, 4:10 am

I have always understood that the cottonmouth is "more venomous" than the copperhead, however based on the post above by Antonsrkn it appears that it must have more to do with venom yield than potency.

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Antonsrkn
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Re: Bitten - A Gallery of Horrors

Post by Antonsrkn » June 11th, 2015, 5:22 am

Martti Niskanen wrote:Comparing LD50s is a bit silly unless you're a white mouse and take venom yields into account.
I agree the LD50 system is flawed, but I am unaware of a different objective method of comparing the potency of venoms, if you've heard of one please share!

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John Delgado
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Re: Bitten - A Gallery of Horrors

Post by John Delgado » June 11th, 2015, 8:23 am

Ya ... I would like to see a viable measure lethal dose chart, but apparently one does not exist to my knowledge. But what do I know ... I'm a noob :crazyeyes:

There is a YouTube Channel by the name of ViperKeeper - Mr. Al Coritz said something like; "...lethal dose chart is hogwash ... look, comparing lethal dose of various snakes is like comparing a gun shot to the chest by a .45 and/or a .22 -- Either will kill you, and if it doesn't kill you ... it will certainly RUIN your day, cost you THOUSANDS and will change your life dramatically...!!!"

I think you get the idea ... don't get bit.

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Bryan Hamilton
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Re: Bitten - A Gallery of Horrors

Post by Bryan Hamilton » June 11th, 2015, 9:01 am

LD50 is still a really valuable way compare toxicity across species. Its not perfect but its an important piece of information.

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John Delgado
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Re: Bitten - A Gallery of Horrors

Post by John Delgado » June 11th, 2015, 9:55 pm

Bryan Hamilton wrote:LD50 is still a really valuable way compare toxicity across species. Its not perfect but its an important piece of information.
Thank you Bryan - duly noted, and I will have another look at LD50.

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Martti Niskanen
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Re: Bitten - A Gallery of Horrors

Post by Martti Niskanen » June 12th, 2015, 4:09 am

Yup, one can at least use LD50 to get an idea and it's the best we've got.

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Re: Bitten - A Gallery of Horrors

Post by MCHerper » June 12th, 2015, 5:46 am

From what I learned in an undergrad toxicology course plus what I've come to learn over the years when referring back to LD50 for MSDS sheets, chemical safety, etc: LD50 is a somewhat reliable indicator of overall toxicity, based on a dose-response relationship between the xenobiotic and the subject. The limitations for use of LD50 information in humans will occur if/when the subject responds differently than humans because of physiological differences. This can and does occur when comparing rats and humans, of course. Another limitation is the control of the genetics of the subject populations, as two different rats of comparable mass may respond differently for some reason. I think that the most (and possibly only) reliable and controlled variable when doing LD50 experiments is the dose of the toxin.

The most accurate way to determine LD50 for snake venom in humans would be to use human subjects, and in an ideal situation they would all be genetic clones. I think that everyone sees the incredible number of ethical problems with both the former and the latter (and no I wasn't encouraging it by pointing it out).

I think that the best way to derive the potential to be killed by a certain snake species, with what info we currently have, is to use the mouse LD50 of the venom applied to the average weight of an adult human, vs. the average venom yield.

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Re: Bitten - A Gallery of Horrors

Post by Bob H » June 14th, 2015, 11:20 am

LD50's give the relative potency of the venoms but does not take into consideration the equally important factor of the volume of venom injected. This can range from none (hopefully) to massive quantities measured in milliliters. Every bite is unique!! I do think the pictures posted are some of the worst outcomes. For most bites remember "time until treatment is tissue lost".

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Noah M
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Re: Bitten - A Gallery of Horrors

Post by Noah M » June 16th, 2015, 2:46 pm

In response to Borneo Dispatch #24.

While your coral snake photos are far better than mine, I never once touched my coral. I will admit though I thought about it. I even moved closer and thought about tailing it just for a bit. But I have to stay focused, not on getting the best photograph, but on getting home safe and sound.


Eastern coral snake found crawling along the shoulder of a road in north Florida
Image

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Antonsrkn
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Re: Bitten - A Gallery of Horrors

Post by Antonsrkn » June 16th, 2015, 4:42 pm

I even moved closer and thought about tailing it just for a bit.
I recently found my first coral snake, a Micrurus mipartitus. It was small as well and I thought about tailing it, luckily I didn't, instead I prodded it with a hook. The reaction was unlike any I have seen from any snakes I have dealt with, it jerked around almost seeming to spasm and lashed around actually leaving the ground in its thrashing. It all happened extremely quickly and while I think my reactions are fast there is no way I would have had time to withdraw my hand had it been what touched its tail instead of the hook. I don't know if in its lashing around it would have bitten into me, but I don't want to know either, from my understanding M. mipartitus has a rather potent venom and I was somewhat removed from any medical care. I don't think it would have ended well, I don't think I will attempt to tail any micrurus after that. I think you made a wise decision there.

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Noah M
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Re: Bitten - A Gallery of Horrors

Post by Noah M » June 17th, 2015, 5:15 am

Yes indeed. One of the first Micrurus I encountered down here I touched with a hook and it suddenly became spastic,wildly squirming around. They just seem to be predictably unpredictable. But, I've seen pictures of people tailing them, so evidently some are calm? I don't know. It just seems to be too risky.

I haven't looked at the gallery, but it is a nice a reminder for everybody that safety should be the number one priority for our hobby.

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Re: Bitten - A Gallery of Horrors

Post by TravisK » June 17th, 2015, 11:20 am

I have done some REALLY stupid stuff in past with hots and got really lucky. Ironically my closest call was after I was behaving responsibly. I almost got tagged about 20 feet from my tent at a pretty busy campsite in the morning. I looked down and coiled in the grass was a moderate sized Crote about 6 inches from my foot. I froze.... I thought about my best options for resolving the issue safely. I didn't have a hook on me and thought about calling someone over to bring it to me but then I was thinking that since it appeared the snake knew I was there once disturbed by the hook it might strike at me regardless if I move or not. I opted for pulling my leg away in the most efficient and fastest way possible. The snake did strike at me but I wasn't tagged.

After the stunt I pulled back in the day I ended up doing lots of evenomation research and had a much great depth of respect for Crotes and the like at the time of this incident. My mistake was assuming I wouldn't come into contact with a crote at this busy campground and tramping around with sneakers and shorts while packing up our stuff to head home and not being aware of the potential of encountering a Crote. That was a scary adrenaline filled morning I would rather not repeat.

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