Coalinga Horned Toad Derby

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Brian Hubbs
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Re: Coalinga Horned Toad Derby

Post by Brian Hubbs »

So...what I've learned from all this is that nobody wants admit getting "Rick Rolled"...

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Re: Coalinga Horned Toad Derby

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Re: Coalinga Horned Toad Derby

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Re: Coalinga Horned Toad Derby

Post by hellihooks »

Same here Richard... no worries... :thumb: a Herp or citizen science stamp is something we've been working towards for years... and will hopefully come to pass.

For those who think I'm 'nit-picking'... I fight the big battles so have the right to fight the small battles, as well... :shock:

I fought vigerously against the Victor Valley's Coast HL habitat being converted to a concrete energy production jungle, by speaking at EVERY 'public comment' meeting... and we shut Edison DOWN...
https://www.facebook.com/2SaveOurSkylin ... 1567872940

Here's me leading the fight against converting the last wild stretch of the Mojave (and a Coast HL stronghold) to a 20,000 unit residential development...
Image

If and when you work as hard as I to protect these lizards... then you have the right to tell me 'enough's enough'. Seems to me that some of you might want to take on a little 'battle'... that should be a no-brainer to win, against a piddling little town... and if and when you're ready to fight the big boys, like Edison and actual Cities... you let me know, and I will help... :beer:

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Re: Coalinga Horned Toad Derby

Post by Jimi »

Sorry your light-hearted thread turned into a shit show, Yolo Dave.
Ditto. If there's a conservative small town chamber of commerce celebrating the existence of a little lizard, sharing "an extensive conservation message" about it, great. Fantastic. Like Dave says, there's an opportunity.
It sends the totally wrong message, especially to kids - Horned Lizards are fun to collect and keep
I wonder if the recited conservation message actually says this. Probably not, if it was reviewed by CDFW.
it's probably more like a week or two in captivity, being fed an incorrect diet (if fed at all) to be followed by being poked and prodded into running a 'race'
I wonder if the terms & conditions of the CDFW permit actually allow this. Probably not. And I saw no poking or prodding in the video.

Assumptions, people. Uncharitable assumptions.
Coalinga has had the HL derby for 80 years, it has become part of their culture, and they will be damned before they give it up.
Exactly. So it would be difficult and counterproductive to pry it out of their hands - better to try and find some way to improve the specific event, or the broader local context, somehow. Or, live and let live - seriously, it's hard to credit the proposition that this is doing much harm to individual lizards or their source population. Tempest in a tea pot with a crap return on effort.

The Claxton example was a good one. Those Georgians took something Christ-awful and made it a lot less unsavory. And they were not forced to accept a loss. People can be really sore losers, it's good when you can avoid that.

cheers,
Jimi

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Re: Coalinga Horned Toad Derby

Post by hellihooks »

Brian Hubbs wrote:So...what I've learned from all this is that nobody wants admit getting "Rick Rolled"...
Hey Hubbcap... you posted this valuable and carefully-considered observation on the wrong thread... :)

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Re: Coalinga Horned Toad Derby

Post by hellihooks »

Jimi wrote:
Sorry your light-hearted thread turned into a shit show, Yolo Dave.
Ditto. If there's a conservative small town chamber of commerce celebrating the existence of a little lizard, sharing "an extensive conservation message" about it, great. Fantastic. Like Dave says, there's an opportunity.
It sends the totally wrong message, especially to kids - Horned Lizards are fun to collect and keep
I wonder if the recited conservation message actually says this. Probably not, if it was reviewed by CDFW.
it's probably more like a week or two in captivity, being fed an incorrect diet (if fed at all) to be followed by being poked and prodded into running a 'race'
I wonder if the terms & conditions of the CDFW permit actually allow this. Probably not. And I saw no poking or prodding in the video.
I will admit that I can't view videos on my computer... and Welcome CDFW's purview and rationals for this, along with any and all requirements and or restrictions in play. Perhaps I am assuming things are worse than they appear. But I don't see how the message that these lizards need to be respected can be taught, when they are being used for gain and entertainment... :o Their actions invalidate their premises, and it's hard to imagine any positive utility outweighing the negative utility. We will break laws and abuse animals in the hopes that some will get the 'right message' ? :?


Jimi wrote:
Coalinga has had the HL derby for 80 years, it has become part of their culture, and they will be damned before they give it up.
Exactly. So it would be difficult and counterproductive to pry it out of their hands - better to try and find some way to improve the specific event, or the broader local context, somehow. Or, live and let live - seriously, it's hard to credit the proposition that this is doing much harm to individual lizards or their source population. Tempest in a tea pot with a crap return on effort.

The Claxton example was a good one. Those Georgians took something Christ-awful and made it a lot less unsavory. And they were not forced to accept a loss. People can be really sore losers, it's good when you can avoid that.

cheers,
Jimi
Perhaps they could race some other type of lizard, slow enough not to get away... say... bearded dragons. And still keep horned lizards as their town mascot, with the emphasis placed on conservation. Calaveras had to change frogs... and their 'frog jubilee' is still going strong. As it stands... this event (IMO) sends more bad messages than good... with 'you don't actually have to practice what you preach' as possibly the worst message of all... especially when done by those who MAKE the rules... :roll:

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Re: Coalinga Horned Toad Derby

Post by Porter »

Im trying to stay out of this as much as I can... damn it

Since Jim can't see the vid and the concept is so obvious to him that he does even need to see it. I do have to point out one aspect that some may have overlooked, that supports what Jim is saying about the mixed message this sends out. The last thing you hear in the vid is a kid calling out to the guy swooping up the lizards... "Can I touch one!? ...can I touch one!!??"

I think that says it all...

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Brian Hubbs
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Re: Coalinga Horned Toad Derby

Post by Brian Hubbs »

hellihooks wrote:
Brian Hubbs wrote:So...what I've learned from all this is that nobody wants admit getting "Rick Rolled"...
Hey Hubbcap... you posted this valuable and carefully-considered observation on the wrong thread... :)
So I did...well, it's been one of those days...here, try this one instead:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

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Re: Coalinga Horned Toad Derby

Post by klawnskale »

I will just state the reality of my position with the Federal government here: I was hired to inform the public 5 days a week about history and the natural history of the Mojave Desert as a full time job on a temporary basis. Statistically , I inform far more members of the public than if done as a casual voluntary assignment. Anyone is welcome to come on down to Kelso Depot and visit. It is the start of the summer season, so visitation is somewhat slowing down, however I interface with a broader cross section of the human population from all over the world and provide them with information. I tried to help one couple find banded geckos to photograph on the Preserve but they struck out. But that is only a fraction of the information I am required to share. I have contributed thousands of bits of data to the State and Federal Government working on different field assignments; so I have no reason to be an active participant of NAFHA. Jim, your credibility factor has no impact on my life, so I take no offense to your judgments. All are welcome to come to the Preserve and enjoy its splendor and natural beauty; along with the human history sites also present on it . Porter: I am here Friday through Monday right now. Will be extended to probably Tuesday in the middle of June. I work 9:00-5:30. With the extension of daylight hours reaching 'til after 8:00PM I would be glad to assist anyone with photo ops after work if they do not mind the light or darkness of the latter part of the day.

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Re: Coalinga Horned Toad Derby

Post by Porter »

Thanks, Hannah. I will keep that in mind! If you were to point me in the right direction, I could probably find something to do until you get off of work ;) Thank you, very kind :beer:

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Re: Coalinga Horned Toad Derby

Post by hellihooks »

Just to be clear, Hanna... my point was a dad and 12 year old boy probably do as much, or more, voluntarily for herps than you get paid to do... any comment on their teaching 'style' is unwarrented and churlish. Attacking people, rather than the arguments, is rarely a good stragtegy... :roll:

For the record... I'd LOVE to have your job... :crazyeyes:

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Re: Coalinga Horned Toad Derby

Post by Helleri »

hellihooks wrote:I intentionally used slavery as an 'extreme' example, to get folks to really think about what is occuring here... taking a living creature into captivity and forcing it to do your bidding. While slavery was strictly 'for profit'... one can argue that morally this is even worse, as it's done for profit AND entertainment.

I don't buy that there is ANY redeeming value, like education... hell... they call them 'Toads' when they are lizards... :shock: and sets the example that Humans can do whatever they want to with 'nature', and that our desires (even enterainment) outweigh all other considerations.

It is only a matter of 'degree' that these two activities differ... they are in the same 'family' of behavoir... and should one care to argue that it's not comparable because people are way more important than lizards... that then comes under the heading of the long-standing (but as of yet unanswered) philosophical 'Moral Standing' question.

And Hanna's seemingly ad hominem argument (I believe) is more than just an emotional appeal (attack on the man)... it is a call to Kantian 'universitality' and even Christian doctrine... 'Let he who has no sin, cast the first stone'... both of which are founded in the 'Golden Rule' principle of "do unto others..." (which BTW, some version of is contained in every major Devine Command theory{religion})

While we all LIKE to think of ourselves as 'idealists', in the real world where the rubber meets the road, we are forced to be more utilitarian... and Hanna's argument that lots of herps are needlessly stressed, all the time, by many people, for a variety of reasons might carry some weight. There is however a big difference in temporarily stressing an animal to collect data that will benefit that species as a whole and stressing an animal for entertainment purposes. And of course the whole spectrum between those two extremes, with cost/benefit analyses for each... but (IMO) the ultimate question being... Who benefits??? The given species, or people? Which brings us full circle back to Kantian 'Intent'... wherein the moral intent of a deed is all that matters. Its clear to me, that in this case... the intent is to please people... and the hell with any other considerations, including the law.

And Jahred... HL eat ants almost exclusively so I doubt the lizards are fed a correct diet, and other insects provided (like crickets) are actually bad for them.

I think a lot of parralles tween this event and the Calaveras Jumping Frog Jubilee can be made... they been doing the frog-jumping contests since 1928, when they used (i believe) Red Legged frogs, but now use Bullfrogs... cause... oh that's right... can't find Red Legs in Calaveras Co. any more... :roll:

Slavery was not just about profit (and modern slavery is even more insidious as it is largely about sex and exploitation). Heck, some of the first Africans of the early modern era slave trade out of Africa were captured warriors and political dissidents (captured by their fellow Africans and sold to the Portuguese, as a convenient and profitable manner of exile over outright execution).

Slavery, though one of our great failings drove the world economy for the near entirety of the early modern era and the first half of the Victorian era. The industrial revolution in Britain and the Americas could not have occurred without it (there is an irony in that of course, as the industrial revolutions made slavery not the most economically viable option any more).

Slaves were used primarily for labor. And, keeping slaves did have it's cost in their care. If saving money over all is profit, then yes it was partly about profit. But, also about controlling Africa and territories of the age of empires (though this didn't work out to well in Hati, lol). We will find profit in most things. But, slavery had heavy impacts on politics. And, not just as a political platform for abolitionists. It was a big part of manifest destiny ideals. A driving force in empire building.

This horned lizard event is about entertainment. But are they being used for labor, sex, violent competition, and being denied humanity on a world wide scale?....Just because something has one or two similarities doesn't make it a fair comparison.

Why not use this bull frog event as an example. If you have already proven this other event to be wrong. And it is so similar. Then that is something far more comparable.

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Re: Coalinga Horned Toad Derby

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hellihooks wrote:Just to be clear, Hanna... my point was a dad and 12 year old boy probably do as much, or more, voluntarily for herps than you get paid to do... any comment on their teaching 'style' is unwarrented and churlish. Attacking people, rather than the arguments, is rarely a good stragtegy... :roll:

For the record... I'd LOVE to have your job... :crazyeyes:
I understood you the first time around. I completely disagree with you. I was guilty at one time of the same communication flaws. I had to learn how to be an effective interpreter without condescension or ridicule. If you are passionate about your ideals and convictions and want the world to be aware, then stage a protest or start a petition. If you want to be an effective educator and successfully enlighten people about new or different facts or ideas then diplomacy plays a far more effective and intrinsic role in getting the point across. Style is extremely important in this case. Too bad it was regarded as an attack.

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Re: Coalinga Horned Toad Derby

Post by Porter »

Hannah, in regards to what you pointed out about the rattlesnakes possibility getting sick from being studied and released, how dangerous is it to have the public touching the lizards before sending them back into the wild? The guy in the video responds to the kid with a, "yes." Are hands sanitized before given the privilege...?

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Re: Coalinga Horned Toad Derby

Post by klawnskale »

Porter wrote:Hannah, in regards to what you pointed out about the rattlesnakes possibility getting sick from being studied and released, how dangerous is it to have the public touching the lizards before sending them back into the wild? The guy in the video responds to the kid with a, "yes." Are hands sanitized before given the privilege...?
The biologists became aware that they maybe a possible vector for the disease after the fact. If there is no threat of spreading a known infection, I don't see a reason to be over zealous with biosecurity. With handling wild desert tortoises this is mandatory and very critical because of a known issue of becoming a possible vector for RTI; which has caused considerable mortality in desert tortoise populations. I will find a link about the rattlesnake disease and post it here so you can read it for yourself. So far, it has not spread to western species of Crotaline. Here is a link to an explanation of the disease: http://www.livescience.com/18634-endang ... ction.html

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Re: Coalinga Horned Toad Derby

Post by hellihooks »

Helleri wrote:
It was a big part of manifest destiny ideals.
This horned lizard event is about entertainment. But are they being used for labor, sex, violent competition, and being denied humanity on a world wide scale?....Just because something has one or two similarities doesn't make it a fair comparison.
Your purview is pragmatic, while my comparison is based on moral ideals... starting with 'manifest destiny'... that we have a God-given right to do whatever we want to the rest of the natural world.

The lizards, in their captive state, generate income... so used for labor?... yes. As the 'race' is ostensibly very stressful... violent competition? yes. denied humanity? they're denied basis respect.
This is exploitation thinly veiled as a 'celebration'... you know... like throwing Christians to the lions. :roll:

Folks (myself included) fight to stop and/or change other exploitive events, like rattlesnake roundups... I see no difference here. I too believe lessons can be gleaned from the history and evolution of the Calaveras Frog Jubliee... starting with what they had to do, given the decline of the native frog (Red Legged frogs, I believe) the event originated with. I've actually searched for RLF in Calaveras co... with no luck... and have yet to ever have seen one, for they are about extinct down here in So Cal... :(

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Re: Coalinga Horned Toad Derby

Post by klawnskale »

Jim: you know what your posts here are sounding very similar to? Do you have affiliations?
http://www.peta.org/about-peta/learn-ab ... iberation/

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Re: Coalinga Horned Toad Derby

Post by hellihooks »

Another person attack...screw this... i'll go back to FB, where they have rules about attacking people... the wildlife group i'm science officer for has grown to over 6,000 members in one year, and I can actually get stuff done there... like organizing protests, etc.

https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hp ... e=55FF46F7

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Re: Coalinga Horned Toad Derby

Post by RobertH »

hellihooks wrote:
klawnskale wrote: And let us ALL remember, we engage in herping as a hobby. How different is this from being a source of entertainment? The end result for both is personal gratification.
Uhhhh... that may be true on FB or FHF... but this is Nafha... a Data Collecting group, and while many members Do Enjoy data collection, wildlife photography, personal collection and/or locality breeding... the point is... we FOCUS on the ONE Aspect of herping that is done for the good of the herps... data collection. Which begs the question Hanna... if you don't collect and submit data... why are you here...on Nafha forums again, with your ALWAYS disparaging comments?
:thumb: :thumb: I cant agree more.

Nicholas

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Re: Coalinga Horned Toad Derby

Post by RobertH »

Can't blame you, Jim. I am also done with this forum for a while. Unfortunately, nothing has changed in the five years - almost to the day - that I have been a forum member. For the most part, either it's meaningless stuff or the trolls take over.

Nicholas may still be hanging in there for a while, but he'll see the light sooner or later too.

I will still be receiving notifications of pm's, so I can still be reached just like before.

Farewell, Bizarro World. May the trolls treat you kindly.

Robert

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Re: Coalinga Horned Toad Derby

Post by Helleri »

hellihooks wrote:
Helleri wrote:
It was a big part of manifest destiny ideals.
This horned lizard event is about entertainment. But are they being used for labor, sex, violent competition, and being denied humanity on a world wide scale?....Just because something has one or two similarities doesn't make it a fair comparison.
Your purview is pragmatic, while my comparison is based on moral ideals... starting with 'manifest destiny'... that we have a God-given right to do whatever we want to the rest of the natural world.

The lizards, in their captive state, generate income... so used for labor?... yes. As the 'race' is ostensibly very stressful... violent competition? yes. denied humanity? they're denied basis respect.
This is exploitation thinly veiled as a 'celebration'... you know... like throwing Christians to the lions. :roll:

Folks (myself included) fight to stop and/or change other exploitive events, like rattlesnake roundups... I see no difference here. I too believe lessons can be gleaned from the history and evolution of the Calaveras Frog Jubliee... starting with what they had to do, given the decline of the native frog (Red Legged frogs, I believe) the event originated with. I've actually searched for RLF in Calaveras co... with no luck... and have yet to ever have seen one, for they are about extinct down here in So Cal... :(
I think it's a bit of a stretch to call it violent competition because of stress. At least in a way that is comparable to the violence of Mandingo fighting. If the animals are under stress. It probably isn't malicious and intentionally. And, these animals are not being sexualized/ considered vehicles for sex either. Yes, aspects of this event share aspects with slavery. But there are many more major differences then their are similarities.

Probably the biggest difference though is that slavery was just plain wrong. And, this event doesn't have to be. It could be changed to be more if not completely environmentally friendly. And, even used as a vehicle for education. Slavery never had the ability to morph into a positive version of itself. This does.

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Re: Coalinga Horned Toad Derby

Post by hellihooks »

Helleri wrote:
hellihooks wrote:
Helleri wrote:
It was a big part of manifest destiny ideals.
This horned lizard event is about entertainment. But are they being used for labor, sex, violent competition, and being denied humanity on a world wide scale?....Just because something has one or two similarities doesn't make it a fair comparison.
Your purview is pragmatic, while my comparison is based on moral ideals... starting with 'manifest destiny'... that we have a God-given right to do whatever we want to the rest of the natural world.

The lizards, in their captive state, generate income... so used for labor?... yes. As the 'race' is ostensibly very stressful... violent competition? yes. denied humanity? they're denied basis respect.
This is exploitation thinly veiled as a 'celebration'... you know... like throwing Christians to the lions. :roll:

Folks (myself included) fight to stop and/or change other exploitive events, like rattlesnake roundups... I see no difference here. I too believe lessons can be gleaned from the history and evolution of the Calaveras Frog Jubliee... starting with what they had to do, given the decline of the native frog (Red Legged frogs, I believe) the event originated with. I've actually searched for RLF in Calaveras co... with no luck... and have yet to ever have seen one, for they are about extinct down here in So Cal... :(
I think it's a bit of a stretch to call it violent competition because of stress. At least in a way that is comparable to the violence of Mandingo fighting. If the animals are under stress. It probably isn't malicious and intentionally. And, these animals are not being sexualized/ considered vehicles for sex either. Yes, aspects of this event share aspects with slavery. But there are many more major differences then their are similarities.

Probably the biggest difference though is that slavery was just plain wrong. And, this event doesn't have to be. It could be changed to be more if not completely environmentally friendly. And, even used as a vehicle for education. Slavery never had the ability to morph into a positive version of itself. This does.
I know you're smarter than me son... but consider developing a more holistic, rather than a human-centric view... perhaps I'll send you a copy of my holistic treatment of the Moral Standing question in philosophy... a subject you should take up (given your doggedness) lol. I've said all I care to say, here. :(

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Re: Coalinga Horned Toad Derby

Post by Helleri »

I read some of that when you were writing it. Most of the letter of the word was beyond me if memory serves (like it was with your time ratification thesis). But, you also broke it down to me. And, if I understood you correctly, than a horned lizards life span vs. level of intelligence would place it far below humans for moral standing considerations. If that is true then wouldn't it be errant to compare their situation to that of human slavery simply because by rank and file the two would not have the same moral standing?

Also (and this is somewhat unrelated), I had a thought about another factor regarding moral standing consideration. I think markers intelligence could be linked to tool usage ( which could help in at least empirically quickly establishing the level of intelligence factor).

The thought is to have categories for broad levels of intelligence, like... No tool usage (house fly)found tool usage (otters, dolphins etc.), refined tool usage ( chimpanzees), manufactured tool usage (humans).

Think of Neanderthals...250,000 years of hand axes (refined tool) and not one of them ever thought to adjoin it to a handle (manufactured tool usage, or the possible difference between us and them...being able to take thought that one extra step).

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Re: Coalinga Horned Toad Derby

Post by klawnskale »

The concept of "Personal Gratification" appears to be a sensitive topic here. Why? It can result in a good or bad outcome. Unto itself it is neither. We all seek it in one way or another, and I go for it just as much as anyone else as a reason to go herping. I do not understand why some individuals find it to be offensive to be related to such a concept. Ultimately it is what you accomplish with the completion of that gratification. It can be constructive by leading to further data acquisition and new information or it can be destructive and lead to habitat degradation, serious population depletion, or unlawful behaviors. So, there is no reason to be offended if your activities for personal gratification lead to a constructive outcome. It is the root impetus that motivates us to go herping. We like herps, we get enjoyment out of finding herps, and being able to share and brag about our finds and discoveries socially.
So good people, some of you should consider dismounting your high horses because you truly believe your motivations are above and beyond the rest of the participants in our hobby and the ignorant populace. It is how you utilize it that counts.

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Re: Coalinga Horned Toad Derby

Post by Kent VanSooy »

Can't blame you, Jim. I am also done with this forum for a while. Unfortunately, nothing has changed in the five years - almost to the day - that I have been a forum member. For the most part, either it's meaningless stuff or the trolls take over.

Nicholas may still be hanging in there for a while, but he'll see the light sooner or later too.

I will still be receiving notifications of pm's, so I can still be reached just like before.

Farewell, Bizarro World. May the trolls treat you kindly.
Robert and Nicholas, I for one very much enjoy your posts and pictures, and would be sad to see them go. An alternative to leaving is to ignore (or be amused in a gallows-humor sort of way) the stuff you find uninteresting - that's been my approach for awhile now. Oh, and I'll try to post something meaningful fairly soon... ;)

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Re: Coalinga Horned Toad Derby

Post by hellihooks »

My point Jahred. is that you seem to think I'm equating people to HL, which with your human-centric purview, you find unacceptable... which is why I suggest you consider a more holistic purveiw, as I employ in my 'Moral Standing' treatment, which I'm not willing to discuss online, pending peer review. Except to say you weren't close... :crazyeyes: I'll send you an abstract.

It's the type of behaviors associated with this event and slavery that are similar... forced captivity for fiscal gain... a disregard for basic respect... and the 'manifest destiny' that precludes these morally problematic behaviors. HMU on FB if you want to discuss this further.

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Re: Coalinga Horned Toad Derby

Post by Fundad »

Personal attacks are not allowed. I understand things get heated, but lets do our best to not be personal. If I can do it, everyone one here can, trust me. :)

Unfortunately if they continue any longer I will be forced to move this thread and I don't want to. Perspective and different
view points bring balance to the universe even if one doesn't agree.

Please be civil with each other. Please respect other view points.

Thank You for understanding
Brian Hinds
California Chapter President

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Re: Coalinga Horned Toad Derby

Post by hellihooks »

For the record... I'm in full support of Fundad's goal for Nafha and CDFW to work hand and hand and (generally speaking) don't have any major issues with CDFW, and mean no offense to them.

In this case it's seems that they're more about being 'people pleasers' than wildlife stewards (only one of which is in their job description) and I think they need to re-visit their rationals for allowing this to continue.

condyle
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Joined: September 25th, 2010, 2:46 pm
Location: Santa Cruz ca

Re: Coalinga Horned Toad Derby

Post by condyle »

Yawwwwwn..zzzzzzzz

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Porter
Posts: 2143
Joined: March 19th, 2011, 6:43 pm

Re: Coalinga Horned Toad Derby

Post by Porter »

Well. I hope at least they are sanitizing the children's hands after running around the fairgrounds... because, in regards to the endangered white nosed rattlesnake, it's better to stop a problem before it becomes one. Like Jim pointed out, there is no proof they even live after being released back into the wild. I guess, maybe we should hope they don't live... considering that would be better for the rest of the population. In terms of possible spreading of fairground germs...

For most responsible field herpers... the ones who care. A simple photo is all they want or need to appreciate these creatures. I'd be willing to donate any and all of these photos in place of not having lizard races (lizards in tanks is better). With no profit to myself! All earnings can go to conservation efforts... NOT racing promotions!! They can keep the beer distributors for that.

All shots in situ... not one of these lizards were touched during this shoot. Just a lot of patience, good vibes, and earning trust from these two individuals.

ImageBlainville Horned Lizard by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

ImageBlainville Horned Lizard by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

ImageBlainville Horned Lizard by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

ImageBlainville Horned Lizard by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

ImageBlainville Horned Lizard by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

ImageBlainville Horned Lizard by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

ImageBlainville Horned Lizard by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

ImageBlainville Horned Lizard by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

ImageBlainville Horned Lizard by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

ImageBlainville Horned Lizard by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

ImageBlainville Horned Lizard by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

ImageBlainville Horned Lizard by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

ImageBlainville Horned Lizard by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

ImageBlainville Horned Lizard by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

ImageBlainville Horned Lizard by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

ImageBlainville Horned Lizard by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

ImageBlainville Horned Lizard by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

ImageBlainville Horned Lizard by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

ImageBlainville Horned Lizard by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

ImageBlainville Horned Lizard by California Reptile & Amphibian Appreciation, on Flickr

mwentz
Posts: 152
Joined: December 8th, 2012, 3:06 pm

Re: Coalinga Horned Toad Derby

Post by mwentz »

Porter, those are great shots, I especially the last pic. Thanks.

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