Field Herping Values for da youts....

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peterknuteberg
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Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by peterknuteberg » April 25th, 2015, 9:44 am

I'm giving a talk at the Chicago Herpetologial Society Junior group to help educate these kids on Field Herping in Preparation for their upcoming Field Herp trip. I was wondering if anyone has prepared a Power Point on the subject or has prepared some materials. I felt that some of the points I had wished to emphasize. And remember I am dealing with kids, not biologists:

1) Field Herping (kind of like birding) is more about seeing, photographing and appreciating nature rather than collecting, keeping, possessing....
2) If you want to keep an animal, buy one from a reputable breeder rather than keeping wild caught animals.
3) Leave things the way you find them. If you tip over a rock, put it back. ....try not to just tear rotting wood apart and stumps, leaves....try not to discrupt natural areas...don't leave your garbage out there...
4) How to tip over rocks and now not to put the herp back....so they don't get smashed....
5) Washing hands after touching an animal and before touching another..not infecting animals...spreading diseases...
6) keeping wet hands when handling amphibians
7) Wild animals really don't like to be held and petted like a dog or cat.
8) NEVER EVER, EVER EVER, HANDLE VENOMOUS....This is not animal planet.
9) If you don't know what it is, don't pick it up.
10) Don't stress these animals out....Signs of stress = biting, tale rattling, musking,
11) The Delicate balance of nature....why preserving even a single species can make a difference.
12) Some methods of herping.....road cruising, flipping, looking in areas where and how they make their living...knowing the habitats and habits of your targets...reading, study, learning about what is in the area you are looking in
13) Appropriate clothing.
14) Knowing if there are venomous or not in your search area and being able to identify them....
15) Know the laws in the areas that you are and follow the laws...
16) Know your endangered and threatened species.


Any ideas that anyone has or photos to help illustrate these points would be appreciated. I will gladly share my Power Point when it is done, so that others may use it if they need to. My goal is hopefully to educate these young ones on conservation, education rather than fear, and a love and appreciation of nature and herps.

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gbin
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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by gbin » April 25th, 2015, 10:48 am

peterknuteberg wrote:I'm giving a talk at the Chicago Herpetologial Society Junior group to help educate these kids on Field Herping...

1) Field Herping (kind of like birding) is more about seeing, photographing and appreciating nature rather than collecting, keeping, possessing....
2) If you want to keep an animal, buy one from a reputable breeder rather than keeping wild caught animals.
. . .
Your first and second points suggest that your goal is to try to instill the kids with your personal morals, not just to educate them, but I imagine you already knew that. Likewise I imagine you already knew that many of us here don't actually share those particular morals, and see nothing wrong but instead plenty right - most definitely including from a conservation standpoint - in having children collect and keep the occasional wild herp in captivity or in doing so ourselves. I'm just mentioning this in order to keep things real for everyone here, and don't see anything to be gained by arguing with you or anyone else about it. Folks interested in such argument can search the forum's archives, where they'll find plenty of it.

But in the hope that you would like to educate rather than (or as well as) moralize on this particular subject, I'd suggest that the main lesson to impart to the kids with respect to keeping animals - be the animals wild or domestic, captured or purchased - is to plan ahead. Taking a living creature into one's home is taking responsibility for that life in its entirety, and shouldn't be done lightly. Children (or adults) should think about what they want for a pet and should learn about and get everything (housing, a food source, etc.) ready for that pet before they ever have the pet in sight let alone in hand, and they shouldn't give in to any impulse to take ownership of a pet for which they haven't prepared just because it caught their eye.

The only other thing I have to suggest is that you try to emphasize the fun side of herping to the kids, not just lower the boom on them with the serious side. Show them your enthusiasm (not just your concern) for these animals and their habitats and they'll be more likely to share it with you by the end.

Gerry

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by BillMcGighan » April 25th, 2015, 10:55 am

Good for you, Peter.

Your list looks pretty good.

Personally, I'd separate #3 into putting the log back with a discussion on how long it takes for the microenvironment to recover with how the organisms depend on it.
And
Don't leave garbage as just good housekeeping as a separate bullet.

I'd add to your good preparation, tick prevention and sunscreen. (Some of us are paying a price for not heeding these warnings, even with indiscretions 20+ years ago.)


#6 note. You can get tiny liquid, pump sprayers at the dollar store that are convenient for keeping amphibs wet.


I've found praising the first kid for a good job of rolling a log back, even if it wasn't perfect, so others can hear you, often corrects the others who are offenders, kids and adults.



edited PS
"What's a yout?" My Cousin Vinny

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by MCHerper » April 25th, 2015, 11:10 am

Hi Peter,

First of all, good for you for doing this! I think that this is a great thing that you are doing and I am happy to see that children are going to be exposed to the wonderful hobby of field herping through your tutelage.

I am a high school science teacher and the father of two young boys. We spend a good deal of time outdoors and some of my sons' friends have spent time herping with us. I do have some suggestions based on things that have and have not worked for me, and I hope that you understand that my endeavor is not to criticize but to merely make suggestions as food for thought.

Have an overarching message or mantra. For my children and those who come out with us, it's do no harm.

I don't know what the ages are of the kids who you are teaching, but if they are under 12, my first impression is that the list is far and away too much information for kids to digest in one sitting, even in a several. My second impression is that some of the kids are going to hear 'don't go herping, don't do what we do, you aren't allowed to do the cool stuff that I do every day'.

I would look to change as much of the don't wording to do as possible. For example, instead of saying 'don't pick up anything if you know what it is', rewrite it as 'only pick it up if you are sure what it is'. In my experience, it will stick better, and will sound more encouraging than discouraging.

#8 and #15 can be integrated.

Also, for young kids, they may have trouble understanding the concept of stress. I think that keeping it simple overall and saying 'a minimum of handling is best', and 'they bite/musk/wiggle/etc. if they are scared, so be gentle and if they bite/././. put them down'.

Consider this suggestion: is there a way to take numbers 3 through 6, and number 10, and make them procedures that are taught in the field? I am thinking that with a 'powerpoint and lecture' format, it is more of a teaching experience for you but a listening experience for them, however in the field, it is a hands-on coaching experience for you, and a hands-on learning experience for them, which is much more powerful for them, and much more fun for both of you.

I'd like to hear your thoughts?

You've done a great job hitting all of the key points in your list. Best wishes and again great job and good for you for getting these kids involved and interested. Good luck!!!

MC

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by MCHerper » April 25th, 2015, 11:18 am

gbin wrote: The only other thing I have to suggest is that you try to emphasize the fun side of herping to the kids, not just lower the boom on them with the serious side. Show them your enthusiasm (not just your concern) for these animals and their habitats and they'll be more likely to share it with you by the end.

Gerry
Good suggestion Gerry. Enthusiasm is contagious.

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by chris_mcmartin » April 25th, 2015, 3:58 pm

gbin wrote:
peterknuteberg wrote:I'm giving a talk at the Chicago Herpetologial Society Junior group to help educate these kids on Field Herping...

1) Field Herping (kind of like birding) is more about seeing, photographing and appreciating nature rather than collecting, keeping, possessing....
2) If you want to keep an animal, buy one from a reputable breeder rather than keeping wild caught animals.
. . .
Your first and second points suggest that your goal is to try to instill the kids with your personal morals, not just to educate them, but I imagine you already knew that. Likewise I imagine you already knew that many of us here don't actually share those particular morals, and see nothing wrong but instead plenty right - most definitely including from a conservation standpoint - in having children collect and keep the occasional wild herp in captivity or in doing so ourselves.

I agree...maybe say something like "There are regulations covering herping, such as bag/possession limits, just like hunting and fishing. Know before you go."

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by peterknuteberg » April 26th, 2015, 5:12 am

Gerry and Chris,

Around the Chicago area, for herping with a large group of kids, we are pretty much restricted to herping in areas such as parks and forest preserves that are protected, meaning no collecting. So, Chris, your point about the law is spot on. We are prohibited by the law. I want to emphasize to the kids that if they want pets, they should think breeders, not collecting. Gerry emphasizes the point of responsibility which is a trait that we would hope to develop in all children.

I have herped with kids on many occasions (I have 4 of my own and am also a scout leader) and like me when I was a kid, they want to keep everything they find. That Blue Spotted Salamander that you find out on the trail looks so pretty that they want to take it home. They talk to salamanders you know...., so they put it in their pocket for safe keeping until they get home....hours later..... I have seen kids break down and cry because they can't take home an animal in the field. I need to prepare them for the fact that we are not collecting. However, I want to emphasize that they can still get pets, just from breeders, which is good for the breeders and which usually produces an animal which is better suited to captivity than the animals we tend to catch around here. So, for them Field herping will be about seeing the animals in their natural habitat, much like birding.

There are areas around Chicago, that are not protected where you could potentially collect, such as railroad tracks. However, unlike the tracks in S. IL., where there is an occassional train, the tracks out here are loaded with Metro trains that are moving 65 mph. and as such, these are dangerous areas for kids to be and trespassers are arrested.

Gerry, Perhaps, despite the above, it is true that I am moralizing. However, those are my beliefs about Field Herping, and I feel that I should share those with these kids. I also believe that they fall within the mission of the Chicago Herpetological Society:

To educate the general public about these frequently misunderstood animals, promote conservation of all wildlife, especially reptiles and amphibians, and to encourage cooperation between amateur and professional herpetologists toward a broader and deeper knowledge of this fascinating field.

Gerry, Chris, or anyone who would ever be interested in speaking to the Junior Herpetological society, would be welcome to do so and could share their views and even moral beliefs about herping with da youts.....they are always looking for speakers to share their enthusiasm and love of our hobby with da youts.

There are some excellent suggestions here, such as "ticks" and from changing it to a Power Point to a more interactive session, where we ask the kids rather than lecture them and from stating things in a positive format rather than DON'T DO THIS. Also, the suggestion of "DO NO HARM" and keeping it simple. Thanks to all who responded.

Bill, Nice spotting there on My Cousin Vinny.

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by justinm » April 26th, 2015, 5:32 am

Peter,

Many times I've seen you with the kids. You're giving them more attention, guidance and mentoring than many would otherwise receive. I'm always proud to see how you handle kids and their unique situations be it at Scouts, or with the kids your children bring over. In fact I remember asking you and your wife how you get your children to be so kind, caring and well behaved. Mine could learn a few things.

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by gbin » April 26th, 2015, 6:19 am

peterknuteberg wrote:Gerry, Perhaps, despite the above, it is true that I am moralizing. However, those are my beliefs about Field Herping, and I feel that I should share those with these kids...
As I said.

I'd like to ask you and like-minded folks to at least think something through, though: How would you feel if someone else moralized your children on some subject under the guise of educating them? What if the morals imparted were contrary to your own? Should that really make a difference?

Dealing with morals in a classroom or equivalent setting is always perilous (albeit far more so when it involves something people actually care about, which unfortunately doesn't generally include herps :? ), but there are ways a teacher can share his/her personal beliefs with children while educating them without misappropriating his/her influence over them as an authority figure. All that needs be done is to point out that "(Such-and-such) isn't a rule. It's something many people including myself personally believe, but many other people instead believe (so-and-so). The important thing to remember in any event is (this-and-that)." That would be educating.

Even fairly young children are incredibly smart creatures. They're capable of understanding distinctions that are drawn for them, e.g. between a teacher's personal belief and an actual tenet concerning an activity, or between places such as parks that are governed by strict rules and others that aren't.

I've done a fair bit of teaching myself, Peter, and I certainly do understand your desire even though in this case I don't share your particular belief. But educators (including occasional, informal ones) and other authority figures are held in special regard by children, and have a corresponding special responsibility not to misuse their position. (Insert Spider-Man quote here. ;) ) And if you decide to do so, anyway, I'd suggest that you not compound your error by deluding yourself that your rationalizations are actually justifications.

And please don't take my constructive criticism as condemnation. I recognize and applaud that you're making quite an extra effort with these kids. I'm just trying to help you keep the passion behind your effort from leading you astray.

Gerry

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by Kelly Mc » April 26th, 2015, 8:02 am

Adults allow me to moralize to their children all the time, and navigate them toward a pet other than a reptile, that is more compatible to the needs children have to be affectional and to have something to pet and handle frequently.

They also appreciate finding out the realities of keeping commitment to an animal that has a potential to live 20 years and will require care long after the novelty is gone, or the child has left for college.

Actually my moralization is more directed toward the parents, and they always appreciate hearing the truth. Well most times.

And kids? When it comes to talking about being courteous to small things that do not understand our intentions, and experience things differently than we do, they understand.

The urge to Possess is strong in humans and can be unwittingly pandered to without a real effort to teach that there are other ways to enjoy an animal other than having it.

I think it fosters a balance of sensibilities.

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by gbin » April 26th, 2015, 8:23 am

Kelly Mc wrote:Adults allow me to moralize to their children all the time, and navigate them toward a pet other than a reptile, that is more compatible to the needs children have to be affectional and to have something to pet and handle frequently.
Kelly, you're talking about giving children individual guidance in a pet shop(?) setting based on expertise, not teaching them rules in an educational setting based on personal morals. There's quite a difference.
Kelly Mc wrote:They also appreciate finding out the realities of keeping commitment to an animal that has a potential to live 20 years and will require care long after the novelty is gone, or the child has left for college.
And that's clearly educating, not moralizing, whether it's aimed at the kids or their parents.

Gerry

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by Kelly Mc » April 26th, 2015, 8:24 am

The above post was not influenced by the fact that Yesterday, and I do mean just yesterday a mom and her two young children came in needing help because the racer a family friend caught and gave to them is now half dead, and after googling came to the store to see if they could get 'blue bellies' to feed it. They did not know it was weak and think it likes them and is Tame.

A pic of the snake shows a limp and very unfortunate snake .

This happened Yesterday and is common.

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by hellihooks » April 26th, 2015, 8:31 am

Peter... I applaud you ongoing efforts to mentor the next upcoming generation of herpers. When giving these kind of talks myself, along with everything you mention... I generally will touch upon data collection / submission as one of the few ways we have to give something back to the herps we love and the habitats they occupy.

Regarding the ethics of CB vs WC keeping, I emphacize that it's a decision that requires careful thought.... starting with... Why? Is it only to please yourself, or are there other reasons as well... such as to try to learn about them, or perhaps to try to preserve a threatened population of genetically distinct herps (Locality Breeding) or... even to provide a safer longer life than might be had by a herp in the wild?
And more fundamentally... what is more important... the herps well being, or satisfying your desires?

For instance... keeping something not well suited to captivity, such as a Coachwip or Horned Lizard, just because you really like them, could be considered problematic... whereas keeping something well-suited to captivity like an Alligator Lizard or Rosy Boa might be more appropriate, when and where legal.

That said... I do encourage cb over wc, (ethical claims aside) as healthier, typically more attractive (line bred, and/or morphs) and often cost less to buy than to go try to find yourself. AND... you can have as many legally purchased herps as you like, whereas there are legal limits on how many wc you can have.

But again... the main point I make is for them (and their parents) to think long and hard about it, before they make any potentially rash decisions.

I also generally touch upon considering photography as a co-hobby to herping, and the advantages of keeping a 'digital collection' over live animals, from both ethical to pragmatic purviews.

Finally... Safety first, when herping. from not herping alone and always having a phone (preferably with GPS, in case of accident /injury) to proper attire, safe flipping techniques, etc.

Best Regards.. jim

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by Kelly Mc » April 26th, 2015, 8:37 am

I think because of seeing things like the racer and other things I think I am going to bow out of this thread as sometimes it feels like my heart is cracking hot and its not useful for me to converse with that emotion.

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by gbin » April 26th, 2015, 10:47 am

Kelly Mc wrote:... Yesterday, and I do mean just yesterday a mom and her two young children came in needing help because the racer a family friend caught and gave to them is now half dead, and after googling came to the store to see if they could get 'blue bellies' to feed it...
How awful! And even more upsetting, how predictable! What this kind of story really emphasizes, though, is the importance of the lesson I recommended giving to the kids with respect to herp (or for that matter other kinds of) pets, namely that they should only be acquired after learning and other preparations have taken place, never on impulse. That's an education that a great many people, not just children, should really get.
hellihooks wrote:... the main point I make is for them (and their parents) to think long and hard about it, before they make any potentially rash decisions.
Exactly. That's a nail that really deserves being hammered.
hellihooks wrote:Regarding the ethics of CB vs WC keeping...
I doubt Peter is interested in this turning into yet another thread debating whether people should collect and keep wild herps, and in any event I've no interest in such (as I said), so for my part I'll just stick to the thread's actual topic: helping Peter do a good job of educating (not moralizing) those youngsters in preparation for their upcoming field trip.

And actually, I reckon I've already said what I have to say on that topic, and (with Kelly's and Jim's help) emphasized what I thought deserved emphasis, too. So I'll leave the rest of this thread up to y'all unless called upon to respond to something on topic.

Good luck, Peter!

Gerry

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by peterknuteberg » April 26th, 2015, 11:11 am

I agree that this is not the place for a discussion on collecting. I never intended for that to happen and don't know how we got off track here.

I still would like to get some photos that can illustrate any of the points above so that I can share those to help illustrate certain principles, such as putting rocks and logs back, not putting a rock back on top of an animal...to put the rock back and then release the animal near the rock, so the animal kind find its own way back. Please post them here if you can.

As I tried to say before, we are doing this in preparation for field herp trip with da youts from Chicago. These are city kids and we will be herping in protected areas where collecting of anything is typically not allowed. I am hoping to try to prepare them for an experience in nature. I don't want them to think we are going to a pet shop or a petting zoo.

I want them to feel the thrill of seeing a garter snake wriggle through the grass and feel that it was special. I am sure we will be picking up animals and handling some of them. I hope to teach the kids the basic principles of LEAVE NO TRACE. TAKE PICTURES NOT SOUVENIRS.

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by hellihooks » April 26th, 2015, 12:29 pm

For the record... I'm not the one who brought up 'moralizing' in regards to keeping/not keeping.

Unlike boy scouts and other such groups... I talk to as many parents as kids (who have brought their kids to hear me speak) and any ethical/moral issues regarding keeping I raise are actually more for the parents than the kids. And most kids here in Ca can find herps that would be legal to bring home (if one of their parents have a fishing license) Not trying to steer anyone in any direction... except to say (perhaps) decisions regarding reptiles should be a family affair, with the parents taking the lead on ethical and moral issues. And while a bit of a sidetrack... just relating how I handle that topic... not trying to spread any messages.

I'll stand by my 'advice' that data collection (citizen science in general, really) wildlife photography, and 'Safety First' are appropiate topics in herp ed talks geared for kids. :)

Oh yeah.. being in Ca... i generally show pics of my hand(s) to drive home how much repect rattlesnakes deserve. Also... I always had the advantage of having some 50+ live native herps to talk about... so my talks were more about 'herps'... than 'herping'.

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by MCHerper » April 26th, 2015, 2:06 pm

Hey Peter,

I had another thought that I wanted to share, an idea for a pre-lecture before taking the kids in the field. Suppose you laminated a card, on one side of the card was whatever mantra you wanted for them. Say, hypothetically, it was respect and protect.... On the opposite side of the card, you had ...the animals, ...their habitat, ...yourself, ...others in the field. Then maybe do a series of 4 open-ended questions with them (having them write the answers and giving them a few minutes to do so) based on what was on the card, such as "how can we respect and protect the animals?, how can we respect and protect their habitat?, etc." The reason for this idea is that I have found that there is tremendous value in making kids think about something before doing it, and it's a good way for them to take ownership of these concepts because they will be the kids' own ideas. Of course you will add to and shape their ideas the way you want, but you will probably find that the kids already have a good idea of how to conserve herps. Also, it might be a good way to give them the chance to come up with these ideas, and when you add to them and discuss them, they can become the 'cultural norms' for the whole group. I find that it is tremendously valuable to 'hook' them with their own ideas!

Hope this is of some value,

MC

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by chris_mcmartin » April 26th, 2015, 2:48 pm

MCHerper wrote:Then maybe do a series of 4 open-ended questions with them (having them write the answers and giving them a few minutes to do so) based on what was on the card, such as "how can we respect and protect the animals?, how can we respect and protect their habitat?, etc." The reason for this idea is that I have found that there is tremendous value in making kids think about something before doing it, and it's a good way for them to take ownership of these concepts because they will be the kids' own ideas.
It's a guided discussion to get the kids to arrive at the conclusion you desire, but they think it's their idea. 8-)

I'd like to think I'm not alone in saying that many of our own youthful experiences with taking home herps was simply because we had no guidance whatsoever--there weren't terribly many breeders out there, and no Internet through which to find them, etc. Given those conditions, keeping what one found seemed more reasonable than it does now--even to the adults accompanying the kids at the time.

Peter, you mention herping where collection is not allowed in the first place, and that should be a good enough reason for the kids to know they won't be going into the field to find a new "friend." I had the same situation yesterday--lot of Boy Scouts and other interested people helping with a survey on Federal land...I explained at the outset that it was a "no collecting" foray. Expectation management can go a long way to avoid the spontaneous "can I keep it?" scenarios, and resultant crushed hopes, in the field. Morality of collecting need not even enter the discussion for purposes of leading a group into the field in your situation.

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by hellihooks » April 26th, 2015, 4:33 pm

Is a cultural norm when the fat guy walks into Cheers... and everyone yells 'NORM!!!'??? :crazyeyes:

Even on 'no collecting' trips... I'll bet most of these kids will have phones with a camera, internet access etc... short of going whole hog and downloading the free app to upload data entries at HERP... pics ARE something they can keep... and as they say... a pic is worth a thousand words and great for reliving the positive experiance and sharing it with friends.

If they did have the app to upload data... you could print and hand out 'Jr Citizen Scientist' certificates... which can go a long way towards building up self-esteem. Heck... they don't even really need the app... take a pic, collect a few notes on gps, time, temp, sex, etc (temp guns are really fun) So... along with pics of what they saw (perhaps even a pic of them holding something, to say... measure lenght)... they come home with a certificate to hang on their wall and be pretty proud of (when no adults are around.. ;) )

I'm sorry to be so... uhhh... persistant... but teaching kids good stuff is one of my favorite things of all. I think I'm done... :| jim

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by chris_mcmartin » April 26th, 2015, 5:04 pm

hellihooks wrote:If they did have the app to upload data... you could print and hand out 'Jr Citizen Scientist' certificates... which can go a long way towards building up self-esteem.
That's a cool idea! :thumb:

collect a few notes on . . . sex,
I think kids do this amongst their friends, app or no app.

:lol:

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by gbin » April 26th, 2015, 5:28 pm

hellihooks wrote:... you could print and hand out 'Jr Citizen Scientist' certificates... which can go a long way towards building up self-esteem...
Yeah? I'm sure we'd all like it if something helped. I guess it's worth a try, anyway...

Image

But I'm afraid you'll have to print it out on your own, Jim.

Gerry

P.S. Sorry, folks, but once in a while a joke is just so on target that even I can't resist making it. :lol:

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by hellihooks » April 26th, 2015, 5:41 pm

good one Gerry... I like it... but would like it more if the name was left blank... so a kids name could go there... i might even print and use it.(for very young kids) Helping herps is all the reward i need for collecting data.

And no... neither I nor my computer is capable of taking my name off... real men don't have floppy discs (am i dating myself technologically?) :crazyeyes:

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by MCHerper » April 26th, 2015, 5:54 pm

chris_mcmartin wrote: It's a guided discussion to get the kids to arrive at the conclusion you desire, but they think it's their idea. 8-)
I like to think that it's something more elaborate like a Socratic way of teaching, but I do believe that you summed much of it up in a nutshell. Truthfully, I like to hear kids' ideas because they are always fresh, they almost always have something to share that you (the teacher) didn't think about, or at very least they have a unique way of looking at things that can be helpful for the understanding of others in the group. It's very enjoyable promoting discussion among students, and most days, I'd rather have them doing more of the thinking, talking, and generating ideas. It's relinquishes power of decision through logical discussion to them, and I feel that it's valuable.
hellihooks wrote:Is a cultural norm when the fat guy walks into Cheers... and everyone yells 'NORM!!!'??? :crazyeyes:
Norm is the guy who helped to illuminate us all as to why beer makes us smarter. His name should be known everywhere. :beer:

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by Kelly Mc » April 26th, 2015, 7:03 pm

I'm allergic to beer. It makes me break out in fistfights and misdemeanors.




:P

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by dthor68 » April 27th, 2015, 8:43 am

Peter, sorry I don't have anything to help you with your list. I am just a little confused on #1. Fieldherping is made up of two groups. You have those, like the birders, who just want to gain an experience. The other group wants to gain an animal. We are all lumped together as "Field Herpers". I think both groups would love to separate and always thought that the other group should be considered "Herpetoculturist".

Gbin, I wish you would explain to me what a personal moral is, a moral is a moral. That is kinda like Dhamer and Gacy saying that those who do not kill do so because of a personal morel. If only RJ Reynolds would have used the "Personal Moral" card we would still have Joe Cool!

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by jason folt » April 27th, 2015, 9:00 am

I am sure your lecture won't actually sound like your outline, but when I read it "Don't, Don't, Don't" jumped out at me. Your lecture sounds like a lecture. I understand the importance of these points, and my morals fall in line with yours. If I were a kid though, I would think "fieldherping sux. too many rules. L8tr." I tend to fall in the camp of using your lecture to excite the kids and encourage their participation in the outdoor activity. Focus on the fun. Use the time in the field to reinforce some of these points when you have a captive audience with a snake in front of you. Make the lecture not sound like a lecture, and use the fieldtime to subtly lecture them...

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by Kelly Mc » April 27th, 2015, 11:09 am

dthor68 wrote:Peter, sorry I don't have anything to help you with your list. I am just a little confused on #1. Fieldherping is made up of two groups. You have those, like the birders, who just want to gain an experience. The other group wants to gain an animal. We are all lumped together as "Field Herpers". I think both groups would love to separate and always thought that the other group should be considered "Herpetoculturist".

Gbin, I wish you would explain to me what a personal moral is, a moral is a moral. That is kinda like Dhamer and Gacy saying that those who do not kill do so because of a personal morel. If only RJ Reynolds would have used the "Personal Moral" card we would still have Joe Cool!

I'm a herpetoculturist and wouldn't collect a wild anything if someone would pay me a thousand bucks for it.

Not good to lump people together by lables.

I'm a herpetoculturist who has chosen to not even Breed many taxa anymore.

I'm not the only one.

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by Kent VanSooy » April 27th, 2015, 11:32 am

And no... neither I nor my computer is capable of taking my name off
Au contraire! Just print that baby up, cover the name with whiteout, then go to Kinkos and burn a bunch of copies. Easy as pumping gas!

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by peterknuteberg » April 27th, 2015, 12:22 pm

Gerry, I love the Certificate. Great suggestion.

1) I am still looking for photos of torn up stumps or of rocks placed poorly back on top of animals left by careless herpers.

2) I have heard that as a practice, animals should not be kept and then re-released back into the wild as it can introduce viruses back into wild populations. I have heard that you can detain an animal (if you have the right permits and the animal is not protected) so that you can photograph the animal. However, keeping animals together in bags and or together runs the risk of infecting other animals with each others diseases. Heard this from a Vet....don't know how accurate it is. However, I do know there is concern here in Il. regarding wild populations of massasaugas, which are seriously in decline and are now under threat not only from habitat destruction but also from diseases that may be partially manmade.

http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/17/12/11-0240_article

3) Certainly keeping wild animals has its downsides such as diseases and making sure that you have an animal that will do well out in captivity. I don't think that most of the animals these kids would catch around here would make good pets, with the exception of garter snakes and some frogs or toads and perhaps a tiger salamander.

4) The Chicago Herp Society already has all kinds of abandoned animals seeking adoptions to a good home and you can get pretty much whatever you want. It is shocking really. They can't give many of these animals away. Want something....herp wise...just hang around and eventually you can get one. And if that is not enough...there are loads of breeders. Why not reward the breeders with our business dollars?

5) CONFESSION OF THE GUILTY CONCIOUS. When I was a kid (in the 60s and early 70s), I herped and we kept everyting we found and sadly, many of those animals did not make it as they were not well suited to captivity and since I didn't know what I was doing, despite reading every book I could get my hands on. Breeders were only getting started then. Today, I think there is a new and better way of doing things which puts an emphasis for the pet trade on breeders. In Field Herping, I love that you can take a photo and keep it forever. I like the concept of enjoying the great outdoors and bringing it home in a photo and memories. I no longer need to possess every animal--I can completely enjoy just seeing them live wild and free in their habitat.

6) I understand that some people want to keep and even breed wild caught animals and I have nothing against that if they are responsible, follow the law and take their obligation seriously. This is how we get all the cool stuff that breeders come up with. This is probably a good thing. I am against taking something out of the wild, bringing it home and letting it die in a cage. Sadly, most kids will either kill a herp or will keep it for a while and then re release it....perhaps not in the right spot leading to the abovementioned problems. Every year we are catching alligators in the Chicago River....how does that happen?

In summary, I am not against collecting...but that being said...it seems that there are a lot of problems potentially associated with it especially if you are not a biologist or someone with a lot of training and experience. Since these are kids I am hoping to start them out by the concept of just enjoying nature...AND I DON'T WANT TO BE TOO NEGATIVE...LIKE DON'T DO THIS AND DON'T DO THAT.....

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by hellihooks » April 27th, 2015, 1:13 pm

Kent VanSooy wrote:
And no... neither I nor my computer is capable of taking my name off
Au contraire! Just print that baby up, cover the name with whiteout, then go to Kinkos and burn a bunch of copies. Easy as pumping gas!
Would it surprize you much that my printer is down??? :roll: after 30+ years of doing 'live' herp talks (the main reason I ever collected anything local) I've quit keeping anything, shut my snake room down, and turned my talks over to younger, more energetic herpers who maintain collections for herp talks and personal pleasure.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TylXmh ... page#t=148

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by gbin » April 27th, 2015, 5:52 pm

Spend some time with a good dictionary, dthor, and don't just read but also think about what you find there. I'm particularly fond of the American Heritage Dictionary, if you need a good recommendation.

Peter, did you decide that you want to make your thread a rehashing of the debate about whether herpers should or shouldn't collect, after all? Your thread, your business. I still won't bother to join in, as I've contributed more than enough to several of the many previous FHF threads on the topic.

I'm curious, though, did you happen to give any thought at all to my questions concerning whether you would want someone else moralizing to your children under the guise of educating them?

As long as the discussion of herp keeping is continuing with your blessing, too, I will try yet again to point out to you what's definitely worth educating the kids on in this respect: the importance of not acquiring a herp (or other kind of pet) on impulse, but only after learning about its needs and otherwise preparing to meet those needs. To those who not only care about but are also experienced in dealing with animal welfare concerns, which you seem to be trying to use as justification for your plan to moralize to the kids about field herping not permitting collecting, this would qualify as a far more important life lesson for them to learn. Want some proof? Here you go...

Kelly, you're in a situation where you deal with a lot of herps that are suffering or outright dying from improper care. Let me ask you this for Peter's sake:
  • - In your experience, are these unfortunate pets all wild-caught, or are there a fair number of captive-bred animals among them as well?
And while we're at it:
  • - Do the problems you see with respect to improper animal care only arise due to the people involved being novices, or are there also a fair number of animals suffering at the hands of more experienced (but equally ill-prepared) herpers?
Might as well go whole hog, and ask for a straightforward, expert opinion on the point I've been raising, too. Kelly, you just said that you wouldn't dream of collecting a wild anything, but you do keep herps and more germane to this discussion you see an awful lot of herps (be they captive-bred or wild-caught) that others have done a poor job of keeping, as I mentioned. So you seem the perfect person to ask this question:
  • - If you had a room full of youngsters and the task of introducing them to the herp hobby, which would you consider more important?
    • 1) Discouraging them from collecting wild herps?

      2) Discouraging them from taking on any herp as a pet without first learning about and otherwise preparing for keeping it properly?
Peter, you said that you didn't know what you were doing with animals you collected as a kid despite reading every book you could get your hands on. I suspect you thought of that as an argument against the point I'm repeatedly raising, but it's actually a point for it. You didn't know what you were doing. The books you managed to find didn't instruct you on what to do. (I imagine you didn't get caging, a food source or whatever else together before you grabbed the animals and threw them into temporary holding containers, either; hey, we were all kids once.) But you went ahead and collected them even though you weren't prepared to properly keep them. Imagine how much better off you - not to mention those unfortunate animals - would have been had some knowledgeable adult instructed you before you ever caught any of them: "DON'T take on a pet before you know how and have otherwise prepared to properly take care of it."

And FYI: It was Jim, not me, who suggested certificates.

Gerry

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by Bryan Hamilton » April 27th, 2015, 6:17 pm

Good luck Peter. I think what your doing is great. Winning hearts and minds.

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by cbernz » April 27th, 2015, 6:48 pm

I think the best approach would be to emphasize the cool, fun, visually appealing aspects of herping, and discretely insert the instructive/moralistic points in between the fun stuff. If you are doing a slide show, your selling point is going to be photos of awesome animals, and maybe kids holding awesome animals. Then while the kids are admiring the photos, you can mention tips on proper handling, hygiene, etc. I wouldn't do a presentation consisting of bullet points telling the kids what to do or not do in the field - it sounds a bit like boot camp or a health class lecture.

If you are preparing kids for a hands-on, no-collecting field trip, then it makes sense to prepare them for the idea of putting animals back where they find them, regardless of one's feelings on collecting in general. It doesn't need to be anything preachy or complicated. I would just try to explain that keeping wild herps (or wild animals in general) is not the same as keeping a cat or a hamster, and it is best to put them back unless you are really prepared to take care of them properly.

Also, I think if you are going to discuss any of the negative effects careless herping can have on animals or the environment (which is fine), you should definitely make some mention of habitat loss, pollution, or other outside forces that impact herps as well.

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by Kelly Mc » April 27th, 2015, 6:55 pm

To answer your question Gerry is difficult. I am in conflict about the Herp hobby. Learning about an animal and preparing for it is a given discussion.

To me, taking an animal out of the wild to keep it, is wrong.

But so are many, and some would say most, captives bred for pets is also wrought with dubious consequences. I try to do the best I can to carve out an alternative niche and sometimes its very. cool.

But i wouldn't encourage a group of youngsters to keep herps in captivity over going out in the field

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by Kelly Mc » April 27th, 2015, 6:56 pm

Accident double post.

I'm on this phone. At work after hours taking care of relinquished reptiles that will live here forever as Ambassadors. I stay here to watch them when its quiet.

They will probably outlive me, and that's a problem.

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by hellihooks » April 27th, 2015, 8:28 pm

The goal of 'Ethics'... to get people to look at themselves, and what they think is proper...before they hit the field, so they don't have to make snap decisions when in the field... not to argue endlessly over what's 'right' or 'wrong'...

I've said this many times, in many ways... and is all I hope that folks might consider doing. past my :sleep: cyaaaaa ;)

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by Kelly Mc » April 27th, 2015, 11:06 pm

Yes Jim, you have posted that before and its great every time.

But what does it mean here, in practice with the kids?

And do you have any advice for someone like me, who is in a vocation that gives me the opportunity to do what I have always done for work but who has been forced to tailor it to fit a construct of doing what I think is right which means the Opposite of what are the conventional goals of someone in my position?

Should I leave - and do what? I cant go back to zoo work, degrees are required now that I do not have. And all of the veterinary technicians I have seen of late all seem to be in their early twenties.

I care for herps, many of them quite old now, and common in the hobby. It would be great if I could find permanent homes for them all but Im not under any illusions. I know what happens. I know how easily they are given up. So me and them we are stuck together. People who buy the same animals in reptile shows and big name chain stores come in to find out about these guys they were encouraged to buy and only told how "low maintenance" they are. Especially with the one size fits all cheesy cage kit.

So ya Jim I would like to know what to do after looking at myself in this case. Because its kind of like the film M.A.S.H, this love and pain.

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by chris_mcmartin » April 28th, 2015, 3:32 am

Peter, you didn't mention where you are giving your talk. I have a suggested venue:

Image

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gbin
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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by gbin » April 28th, 2015, 3:56 am

cbernz wrote:If you are preparing kids for a hands-on, no-collecting field trip, then it makes sense to prepare them for the idea of putting animals back where they find them, regardless of one's feelings on collecting in general. It doesn't need to be anything preachy or complicated. I would just try to explain that keeping wild herps (or wild animals in general) is not the same as keeping a cat or a hamster, and it is best to put them back unless you are really prepared to take care of them properly.
This is well said and I agree with it - except that no one should acquire a cat or hamster unless they're really prepared to take care of it properly, either. ;)
Kelly Mc wrote:To answer your question Gerry is difficult. I am in conflict about the Herp hobby. Learning about an animal and preparing for it is a given discussion.
I know I put you in a difficult position with my questions, Kelly, and I'm sorry about that. But it is partly because of your conflicting feelings (in addition to your personal experience) that I asked them of you, and I hope you will yet take the time to actually answer them, as asked.

Why? Because learning about an animal and preparing for it isn't a given discussion. It should be, but within the herp hobby and elsewhere among pet keepers, among experienced herpers as well as novices, it clearly isn't. That steady parade of unfortunate pets you try to save or mercifully put down are telling you it isn't. Even just in this thread it isn't; with no offense whatsoever intended toward Peter, I get the impression from the things he's said that he's going to use the opportunity of his time with those children to urge them toward captive-bred animals if they've a strong desire for a pet (which is just fine), but not bother to urge them to properly prepare before getting whatever pet in the first place (which decidedly is not fine). Those of us who know of the importance of preparing rather than acting on impulse when it comes to other living creatures too often think it's so obvious that everyone must know it, but the sad truth is that a great many people don't.

I wonder, how many people just here at FHF and just within the past year, collected or purchased a herp for a pet even though they didn't really know its captive care requirements (though maybe they thought they "had an idea of them" :? ), didn't have an enclosure or a reliable food source ready for it, etc.? If we knew the number I bet we would be dismayed by it.

Anyway, if you're willing...
  • - In your experience, are these unfortunate pets all wild-caught, or are there a fair number of captive-bred animals among them as well?

    - Do the problems you see with respect to improper animal care only arise due to the people involved being novices, or are there also a fair number of animals suffering at the hands of more experienced (but equally ill-prepared) herpers?

    - If you had a room full of youngsters and the task of introducing them to the herp hobby, which would you consider more important (recognizing that you might consider both such)?
    • 1) Discouraging them from collecting wild herps?

      2) Discouraging them from taking on any herp as a pet without first learning about and otherwise preparing for keeping it properly?
Gerry

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by chris_mcmartin » April 28th, 2015, 5:06 am

gbin wrote:with no offense whatsoever intended toward Peter, I get the impression from the things he's said that he's going to use the opportunity of his time with those children to urge them toward captive-bred animals if they've a strong desire for a pet (which is just fine), but not bother to urge them to properly prepare before getting whatever pet in the first place (which decidedly is not fine).
Much of the recent discussion still boils down to "expectation management," which goes a long way in avoiding the heartbreak, tears, tantrums, etc. I think Peter is pitching this as a "go out and find/photograph/appreciate herps in their natural setting." If that's the case, the only thing that need be said for purposes of this activity is something along the lines of:

"I know some of you will be excited to catch and hold an animal you find. You may even wish to keep it as a pet. However, for today's adventure we will be leaving all animals where we found them. A pet is a big responsibility and it's best to learn about an animal's requirements before you take on that responsibility. If you think you would like a reptile or amphibian as a pet, there are a lot of better options than taking something home spur-of-the-moment, that you haven't yet researched. I would be happy to discuss this later with you and your parents."

I think that's "positive" enough (i.e. no "don't" phrases in there) and leaves the door open for future interaction with da youts.

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by Kelly Mc » April 28th, 2015, 5:11 am

Anyway, if you're willing...
  • - In your experience, are these unfortunate pets all wild-caught, or are there a fair number of captive-bred animals among them as well?

    - Do the problems you see with respect to improper animal care only arise due to the people involved being novices, or are there also a fair number of animals suffering at the hands of more experienced (but equally ill-prepared) herpers?

    - If you had a room full of youngsters and the task of introducing them to the herp hobby, which would you consider more important (recognizing that you might consider both such)?
    • 1) Discouraging them from collecting wild herps?

      2) Discouraging them from taking on any herp as a pet without first learning about and otherwise preparing for keeping it properly?

Ok here are my answers as best as I can :

- No they are not all wild caught, but are actually more that are CB.

- No they are not all novices but a significant portion of those whom have had the animal/s long periods and have a history of keeping in past but have lost interest in the particular animal because of a new interest in acquiring another species, or other reason like moving, growth of reptile dictating larger quarters, or reluctance to expense veterinary care or additional time or equipment revealed as needed.

and from list 1

Between the two with the imperative for a singular answer within the perimeters you set it would be :

Learning as much as you can and preparing for Any animal before acquiring it.

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by peterknuteberg » April 28th, 2015, 5:13 am

Gerry, I've put your point into my presentation, because I think it is a very good one: Keeping an animal is a responsibility. Before getting an animal, we want to make sure we know the animal, its needs, and make sure that we can house, feed and take care of that animal for as long as that animal lives, which can be years. [I hope I've stated it correctly].

We all have a certain moral code about field herping whether we admit it or not. Gerry, even you are moralizing here....and I'm ok with that because I can learn from everyone here and I'm learning from you. Thank you. Your moral code is a little more expansive than mine...but you still have one and you are talking about it.... and I am learning.

We all love herping. We all wish to share the excitement that we feel and our love of nature. I think we all see our planet being gobbled up at an alarming rate. We see beautiful habitats turned into giant parking lots. We are all concerned for the future.

Most of us here think that rocks and other things should be returned just as we found them, if we tip them. Most of us are upset if a stump is ripped to pieces and left shredded and destroyed. We are upset if someone pours gasoline down a burrow. We get upset if people throw garbage out on the trails. I know herpers who walk snake road with a garbage bag and pick up the garbage as they walk along. None of us like to see an animal "harassed". Of course, our definitions of "harassed" may be slightly different, but we all have seen someone go too far. No one wants to see a rock carelessly placed back on top of a snake, smashing it. None of us should break the law. Perhaps we want to collect data so that data can be shared with others, especially knowledgeable biologists to help them...... Shouldn't we teach good habits to young herpers? What we choose to teach these kids, what we emphasize or don't emphasize inherently puts a value on those things. What we feel is important or not important will either make its way into our talk or not. This valuation is a reflection of our "values", which is another word for morality. So, like it or not, we all have a code...no rules can be a code too. When we discuss herping with kids, we are going to be passing on the information that we feel has the most value for them.


AND I STILL HAVE NO PHOTOS TO USE OF CARELESS ROCK TIPPING...... or other things that we wish to avoid to illustrate points. OR TO STATE THE POINT POSITIVELY, I COULD USE A PHOTO OF SOMEONE PUTTING A ROCK BACK....

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by peterknuteberg » April 28th, 2015, 5:15 am

Chris, you are spot on:
Much of the recent discussion still boils down to "expectation management," which goes a long way in avoiding the heartbreak, tears, tantrums, etc. I think Peter is pitching this as a "go out and find/photograph/appreciate herps in their natural setting." If that's the case, the only thing that need be said for purposes of this activity is something along the lines of:

"I know some of you will be excited to catch and hold an animal you find. You may even wish to keep it as a pet. However, for today's adventure we will be leaving all animals where we found them. A pet is a big responsibility and it's best to learn about an animal's requirements before you take on that responsibility. If you think you would like a reptile or amphibian as a pet, there are a lot of better options than taking something home spur-of-the-moment, that you haven't yet researched. I would be happy to discuss this later with you and your parents."

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by gbin » April 28th, 2015, 5:58 am

Kelly Mc wrote:- No they are not all novices but a significant portion of those whom have had the animal/s long periods and have a history of keeping in past but have lost interest in the particular animal because of a new interest in acquiring another species, or other reason like moving, growth of reptile dictating larger quarters, or reluctance to expense veterinary care or additional time or equipment revealed as needed.
Well, that opens up a whole different can (or several cans) of worms, doesn't it? I knew of these issues as well, of course, but was applying a narrower focus in deference to Peter's topic. What we really need is to have pet keeping (and for that matter child bearing, and...) dependent on some kind of maturity testing. :?

Thanks for indulging me, Kel; your answers were everything (and more than) I expected them to be.
peterknuteberg wrote:We all have a certain moral code about field herping whether we admit it or not. Gerry, even you are moralizing here...
I certainly am, Peter, but the difference is that I'm doing so to a group of people, mostly adult, who are already at least somewhat knowledgeable about the subject and aware that there are profound differences of opinion concerning it, not under the guise of teaching a group of children who view me as an authority figure. Even in the latter setting there's a fair opportunity for you to promote your personal beliefs, as I said earlier; just make it clear to them that this is what you're doing, and that other people hold other beliefs. The issue I have is with your presenting it to them (or us, for that matter) as an "education" about how field herping is done.

I'm not saying, either, that there aren't any morals that more or less all field herpers adhere to, but such universals aren't at all what we're dealing with here. (Are you catching up yet, dthor? I was serious in recommending the American Heritage or another dictionary; most people don't put nearly enough effort into trying to understand and use language correctly, and dictionaries can really help.) The herp community is quite divided between those who think that animals should never be collected from the wild and those who think that it's just fine to do so (within the law, of course), with plenty of folks falling somewhere between those extremes as well. It's hard to gauge because there's no good way to ask everyone and even if there were not everyone would be willing to answer truthfully, but all indications are that a sizable majority of people in the herp hobby either collect or at least think its OK to do so. That makes your original point #1 a minority opinion, by all means fine for you to have and promote, of course, but not fine for you to teach to a bunch of kids as if "this is the way things are." That's where my criticism about moralizing under the guise of educating comes from. I figured you understood that, but given your comment about my moralizing here, too, maybe you didn't?...

Anyway...
peterknuteberg wrote:Chris, you are spot on:
Much of the recent discussion still boils down to "expectation management," which goes a long way in avoiding the heartbreak, tears, tantrums, etc. I think Peter is pitching this as a "go out and find/photograph/appreciate herps in their natural setting." If that's the case, the only thing that need be said for purposes of this activity is something along the lines of:

"I know some of you will be excited to catch and hold an animal you find. You may even wish to keep it as a pet. However, for today's adventure we will be leaving all animals where we found them. A pet is a big responsibility and it's best to learn about an animal's requirements before you take on that responsibility. If you think you would like a reptile or amphibian as a pet, there are a lot of better options than taking something home spur-of-the-moment, that you haven't yet researched. I would be happy to discuss this later with you and your parents."
I wholeheartedly agree! Well done, Chris! :thumb:

Seems like a good exit point on the above discussion, too. Now how about folks start digging up photos and such for Peter's upcoming talk?

Gerry

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by hellihooks » April 28th, 2015, 7:42 am

Peter... I've been looking for pics you could possibly use, but haven't had much luck... sure... i could post stressed vs calm examples... but my stuff is all west coast, and not species local to where you are. I know Fundad has good pics of torn up outcrops / rock damage... best I have is graffiti. that said... i have like 5,000 pics in my public 'Hellihooks' photobucket albums so feel free to puruse them and use any you want... including my snakebite pics on pg 2 of my main album.

EVERYONE... (especially philosophers) argues for what they believe is best, and trys to pursuade others to their point of view. That is as it should be. Personally... i'm a neo Virtue theorist... believing that there is always a perfect means between extreams... which, if you'll notice, is EXACTLY what Chris employs.


We herpers make these cost/benfit analyses everytime we encounter a herp in the field... collect or not... insitu or pose, etc. My point is we should all make our decisions regarding our behavior(s) BEFORE we hit the field, and hopefully putting the animal's best intrests (whether individually or as a species) over our own personal desires.

My message to kids...same as for adults... decide what to do... before it happens... in other words... THINK! The old... "What would you do...If??" game is a good way to engage kids to explore these concepts...

Brake job on car... then off to work... cyaaaaa

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by Kelly Mc » April 28th, 2015, 8:08 am

Thanks for the suggestions Jim. But my rubber meets the road to the sole per long evolution of communication and relationship connecting animals and people.

My appeal was personal.

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by Kelly Mc » April 28th, 2015, 8:25 am

You must have misunderstood. I'm not interested in "adopting out" my wild caught older captives. They deserve to live out the rest of their lives in stability and peace.

The appeal made in an earlier post was an effort to talk about internalized conflicts I rarely hear mentioned.

But not in theories. Just raw.

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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by hellihooks » April 28th, 2015, 8:33 am

Don't ask me for my advice again... raw enough?

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Field Herping Values for da youts....

Post by Kelly Mc » April 28th, 2015, 8:48 am

Uh, your air of superiority isn't balanced very humbly, Jim.

I'm simply expressing Moments I have sometimes of conflict being part of a genre that has aspects I find increasingly repugnant - the Industry MORE than any novice or client.

You will undoubtedly deny it, but you have an extremely refined style of being snarky. Its refined enough to effortlessly dodge any admission of it.

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