WTF is the matter with people?

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Jerry Hartley
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WTF is the matter with people?

Post by Jerry Hartley » April 10th, 2015, 7:05 am

Just wanted to say thanks to the idiots that flipped all of my boards out of place and left them. Took a friend over to Nor Cal as he had never flipped a Cal King or a pacific gopher and we went to my original board line in Davis (everybody knows about it) to find all of the boards (40+) flipped out of place and left for the well established environment underneath to dry out and be unusable for not only the herps to use, but their well needed prey items to dwell, especially during the worst drought year in many moons. I get that it is a well known spot due to google earth, but to destroy habitat for so many animals is just freaken stupid. I would hope that it was not herpers, but I have heard of herpers doing this kind of nonsense just so others can't enjoy. It took a lot to haul those boards 200 miles from Nevada just to enjoy quality time with friends an family in the field, so to have it destroyed really pisses me off if you haven't noticed. Thanks again idiots......

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Kent VanSooy
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Re: WTF is the matter with people?

Post by Kent VanSooy » April 10th, 2015, 7:25 am

Jer, that seems to be the theme this year - I know of three spots in SoCal where that was done - I feel like I spend about half my time in the field fixing lines rather than finding animals. I ran into a guy, and a friend ran into another, who had passing interests in snakes and said they had looked under the boards. When asked if they left them flipped over, they said yes - they didn't figure it mattered (to which any experienced herper thinks, are you kidding me?!? you don't see the difference between rodent holes and matted grass?? But apparently they don't).

Anyway, at first I thought some of the disruption here in SoCal was malicious, but it hasn't happened again. Who knows.

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Helleri
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Re: WTF is the matter with people?

Post by Helleri » April 10th, 2015, 8:32 am

Maybe it would be a good idea to put notices on individual boards in a board line? Like a photocopied notice that could be sealed onto the top of boards with Art resin (FDA approved as "Food Safe" once cured and water repellent)? Wouldn't be that hard or expensive to do (time consuming but might be worth it).

Such notice could explain that the board is not trash. But instead placed there purposely to create artificial habitat. That it is there for field research. State what the information collected is used for. And, ask the person reading the notice to go by a few simple rules if using the board. Like not slamming it back down or leaving it flipped over. But setting it back down as they found it when finished. Not killing, removing or otherwise harming what they discover etc.

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chris_mcmartin
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Re: WTF is the matter with people?

Post by chris_mcmartin » April 10th, 2015, 6:45 pm

Helleri wrote:Maybe it would be a good idea to put notices on individual boards in a board line?
I do that with my boards and tin (placed with permission from the Feds, which helps)...has a phone number of the relevant agency to call with questions. They are small metal placards, hunter-safety orange with black lettering. I think this is their fourth season in place, and they've generally held up well, though they've faded somewhat.

I like the idea of general advice (it's habitat, replace it as found, etc.) but it gets a little squirrely when including additional info such as owner identity/info (especially if the placement is in a "gray area" of legality/permission). I've considered the idea of starting an AC registry of sorts where each piece could be designated an identifying number, which would then be logged in an online database whereby someone could communicate with its owner anonymously (sort of like craigslist).

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Helleri
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Re: WTF is the matter with people?

Post by Helleri » April 10th, 2015, 8:33 pm

Gray areas...Hehe. From what I have seen, half the time herpers are not sure whether or not they are "technically allowed to be there". Looking over their shoulders all the time like they buried gold. Because, they are not sure if someones going to come tell them to get lost.

Could do an Adopt a board/board line thing. People with large plots of land could opt-in to hosting boards and board lines, and having herpers come through periodically to check them. people can feel like they are doing something for conservation without actually doing anything. People seem to love that kind of almost no effort contribution...examples: tabs for a cause, re-tweeting about 'important issues', like buttons, walkathons, donating pennies to charity at coinstar.

A registry sounds good. But, where do people (people who might take issue with it, viewing it as just litter/dumping) seeing a number on a board go to enter that number? A website I imagine. And, what happens if a particularly upset person wants names from that website? Someone who just doesn't agree that the boards should be there (no matter what you say), or doesn't think it was done properly enough?

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chris_mcmartin
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Re: WTF is the matter with people?

Post by chris_mcmartin » April 11th, 2015, 4:03 am

Helleri wrote:A registry sounds good. But, where do people (people who might take issue with it, viewing it as just litter/dumping) seeing a number on a board go to enter that number? A website I imagine.
The same website people who placed the board register it. I could envision standardized ID placards available, for purchase and use on the boards, through such a site (with the "do not disturb" info etc. incorporated).
And, what happens if a particularly upset person wants names from that website? Someone who just doesn't agree that the boards should be there (no matter what you say), or doesn't think it was done properly enough?
All this would have to be hashed out before such a site goes "live"--lots of "legalese" and disclaimers etc.--expectation management for both users and others.

If it came down to it, people seriously upset would probably do what they presumably already do--remove the board. The site would need a "status" field for the board, which could be updated to "not found--presumed missing/removed."

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Steve Bledsoe
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Re: WTF is the matter with people?

Post by Steve Bledsoe » April 11th, 2015, 3:37 pm

I've had the same experience lately as well. Kent and I have a few sites together where this same thing happens quite often. The only sites we have that go undisturbed are on fenced, posted and patrolled private property where we have written permission to conduct our surveys, and keys to locked gates.

I've come to the conclusion that it's a waste of time, resources and energy to set up boardlines on property that isn't physically protected, either by fencing and locked gates, or patrolled by guards, or both. People now days have no respect for other people's property or the land in general, which is why so much of the land we used to herp and hike as kids 30 years ago is all fenced and posted these days. It's frustrating to say the least. I feel your pain.

Unfortunately I think the internet is working against us. In my younger days, I knew very few people who were herpers. Now, anyone can stumble upon our forums on the internet, or visit social media sites and see the cool things we find, and how we go about it. It invites a lot of neophytes who have no clue, or even care, how important it is to replace boards, rocks, logs and other cover so that the animals can continue to use them. The same idiots are commonly encountered on deserted roads we have road cruised for decades. There's also the occasional disrespectful herper who simply takes pleasure in making others miserable. It's wrong, but it's unfortunately something we all have to deal with.

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shredsteban
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Re: WTF is the matter with people?

Post by shredsteban » April 12th, 2015, 6:37 am

This is infuriating. One of the best lines here in Corona was destroyed that way, then ultimately by development. Which is unfortunate, because this is one of the last accessible fields in the Corona foothills of the Santa Ana Mtns. This line was made by my friend Chris with piles of tin that he had found in the fields. It was producing 2-3 snakes under many of the boards in its better days. He told me that he ran into high school kids that were flipping the boards, taking snakes and rearranging them where they thought the boards would be better. Didn't make any sense to me. I actually didn't believe him until I ran into some Jr High kids rock flipping at a very popular spot in Lake Matthews. I noticed they had snake hooks and looked very young. I asked them if they knew of any board lines in Corona, and they knew about the one my friend Chris made. Said they hit it everyday after school! I explained the importance of placing boards and rocks back exactly as it was placed or else they wouldn't be finding snakes anymore. Unfortunately, they're building a road right through that line. This day was frustrating, because a couple weeks later, I returned to the spot where I met those kids and it seemed as if every flippable rock was overturned and misplaced.

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Helleri
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Re: WTF is the matter with people?

Post by Helleri » April 12th, 2015, 8:29 pm

Does NAFHA/FHF have a youtube channel?

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jonathan
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Re: WTF is the matter with people?

Post by jonathan » April 14th, 2015, 4:38 am

This sounds like one of the biggest arguments for getting people educated and involved in the community to some degree. Even if they don't care about other people, just helping them understand that they're ruining their own future chances at that boardline might allow them to realize that leaving the boards misplaced is unhelpful for everyone.

Herping ethics are never going to come automatically. Wherever people with a herping interest might go (forums, facebook, clubs, photo sites, etc.), it would be good if we could develop friendships with the newbies and educate them on the right things to do in the field. Otherwise, ignored newcomers will keep doing stuff like this their whole lives.

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shredsteban
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Re: WTF is the matter with people?

Post by shredsteban » April 14th, 2015, 9:27 am

jonathan wrote:This sounds like one of the biggest arguments for getting people educated and involved in the community to some degree. Even if they don't care about other people, just helping them understand that they're ruining their own future chances at that boardline might allow them to realize that leaving the boards misplaced is unhelpful for everyone.

Herping ethics are never going to come automatically. Wherever people with a herping interest might go (forums, facebook, clubs, photo sites, etc.), it would be good if we could develop friendships with the newbies and educate them on the right things to do in the field. Otherwise, ignored newcomers will keep doing stuff like this their whole lives.

I agree 100% with this. I think it would be beneficial for chapters to consider doing Beginner or Newcomers meet and greets in the field. Have a field day in a well known area where people can be taught the ethics of herping, hands on. I don't know how realistic this is, or if it has already been done OR if any of the newer herpers would even join in an event like this.

Humans can do a good job at shaming other humans away from certain acts, behaviors or habits but not everyone is able to receive criticism like this. I have friends who avoid this forum at all costs because of how they were spoken to and other friends who don't like herping with more experienced herpers out of fear of being put down or criticized. But on the flip side, I've received nothing but constructive criticism from the fine people in this Chapter when I do do something that may raise some brows. And some of my friends who avoid this type of environment are not ones who receive criticism well. And they very well may be doing things that need correction, hence their pushback attitude. I don't believe that every experienced herper is an A-hole, nor do I believe that every new herper is unmalleable in regards to herping ethics. It just depends on the person. I think there will always be a handful of newcomers that will learn the ethics of herping a little late. Except for experienced herper's kids that are learning the right way from the start!

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Helleri
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Re: WTF is the matter with people?

Post by Helleri » April 14th, 2015, 9:29 am

That is why I asked if NAFHA/FHF has a Youtube Channel. I couldn't find one searching for it. And, there are enough members to keep such a channel packed with content. There are also quite a few good initial topics (could be a whole series on just 'getting started right') to start such a channel off with. And, its obviously become popular enough that such a channel could gain a good following. Since, Youtube channels can also be monetized (earn money through adverts played on the channels videos), overtime it could be a source of funding as well.

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Speckled Rosy
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Re: WTF is the matter with people?

Post by Speckled Rosy » April 14th, 2015, 9:46 am

Hide them really, really well, cover them well.. And try to find your own areas to set up, not where lots of other people go.. Now a days Google Earth, requires you cover them up really well.. I also agree with Kent, that these could be newbies, that are only half-educated..

-Dan

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jonathan
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Re: WTF is the matter with people?

Post by jonathan » April 14th, 2015, 2:27 pm

shredsteban wrote:I agree 100% with this. I think it would be beneficial for chapters to consider doing Beginner or Newcomers meet and greets in the field. Have a field day in a well known area where people can be taught the ethics of herping, hands on. I don't know how realistic this is, or if it has already been done OR if any of the newer herpers would even join in an event like this.

Humans can do a good job at shaming other humans away from certain acts, behaviors or habits but not everyone is able to receive criticism like this. I have friends who avoid this forum at all costs because of how they were spoken to and other friends who don't like herping with more experienced herpers out of fear of being put down or criticized. But on the flip side, I've received nothing but constructive criticism from the fine people in this Chapter when I do do something that may raise some brows. And some of my friends who avoid this type of environment are not ones who receive criticism well. And they very well may be doing things that need correction, hence their pushback attitude. I don't believe that every experienced herper is an A-hole, nor do I believe that every new herper is unmalleable in regards to herping ethics. It just depends on the person. I think there will always be a handful of newcomers that will learn the ethics of herping a little late. Except for experienced herper's kids that are learning the right way from the start!
All of that is really on target.



Helleri wrote:That is why I asked if NAFHA/FHF has a Youtube Channel. I couldn't find one searching for it. And, there are enough members to keep such a channel packed with content. There are also quite a few good initial topics (could be a whole series on just 'getting started right') to start such a channel off with. And, its obviously become popular enough that such a channel could gain a good following. Since, Youtube channels can also be monetized (earn money through adverts played on the channels videos), overtime it could be a source of funding as well.
Overall I think that's a really good idea, even though I doubt it would ever get enough traffic to make much money. The positive effect it might have on people would be worth it by itself.

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Re: WTF is the matter with people?

Post by hellihooks » April 14th, 2015, 6:55 pm

For a while now I've said that public education is one direction Nafha could put more emphasis upon, now that HERP has 'cut the cord'. It's also why I used to (as Ed Spec) make a concerted effort not just to talk to the newbs... but get out in the field with them as well. No better way to get a fix on someone, than to herp with them... :(

Every Nafha member should do (at least) one herp ed talk a year, and mentor one newb. As a group... there'd be no time for 'floundering' and a committment to this would bear quantifiable concrete results. 8-) jim

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Re: WTF is the matter with people?

Post by kingsnakeadam » April 14th, 2015, 7:49 pm

Shredsteban I live in corona, you can tell me where that board line is and I'll keep an eye on it for you :)... j/k.......I had some boards flipped out of place a few years ago cause I knew other people were hitting the boards so I put a fake snake under one of the boards hahahaha. Who ever found it got ya lol.... but yeah I guess they didn't like it so they flipped them all out of place haha. Yeah its frustrating but I have learned that it's part of the game I guess......... the only way to avoid this is hid your boards better cover them with dirt and dry grass and such. I have other boards that I placed markers on the boards so I knew if people were hitting them cause I thought that they were getting hit a lot. I returned 2 days later and the markers were off the boards already! freaking lazy people! It sucks doing the hard work on setting up boards. I know of others boards in the same general area and I never check those boards out of respect. I just hope others will respect my lines but some people don't care.

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Helleri
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Re: WTF is the matter with people?

Post by Helleri » April 14th, 2015, 8:52 pm

@Jonathan
Well, one thing many successful. Youtubers have said consistently is that if you work hard at youtube you will be successful. Even if you put out terrible content. Things like, having at least 2 videos a week, dozens if not 100's of videos in your back catalog, interface your Youtube with all your social media and keep up on responding to feed back, have a release schedule you stick to, do channel update videos, Q&A sessions and live streams etc.

Another thing a lot of youtubers that are successful have said is that they never thought anyone was all that interested in their content. Now, there must be an audience. It's. The internet. There is an audience for everything. And, a lot of the time people don't actively search for new interests. They stumble upon them. So, it is entirely possible for loud enough voices to create interest where there may not have been much before.

It's a lot for any one person or even a few people to undertake. Most individual youtubers have built what they have over a number of years. But, sometimes you see overnight startup successes like the channel "Testtube". Because, a group of people did their home work, organized, and fot things going much faster then the individual could.

NAFHA would need a Facebook, twitter, sub-reddit and the like. They would all be used to link back to the YouTube channel and blurb news about new videos, features and such. The cool thing about starting all that up is it can get a good kick start. The already active members of the forums can subscribe, like, favorite, follow, and up vote the crap out of the startup, so t has some initial fueling.

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Re: WTF is the matter with people?

Post by Fieldnotes » April 15th, 2015, 9:42 am

I created a small board area in the Santa Ana Mountains, east of the toll Fwy and S of the 91 Fwy, that got trashed after the first rain of the season. The person flipped after the rain, so they knew a thing about herping; flipping boards out of place and unseating rocks. Im posting here, because i'm hoping we can track-down the culprit and convince them not to do that anymore.

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Helleri
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Re: WTF is the matter with people?

Post by Helleri » April 15th, 2015, 3:28 pm

It's very likely to be culprits*...though if it were one sinister individual it would be a luagh. Because, worst super villain ever.

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jonathan
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Re: WTF is the matter with people?

Post by jonathan » April 15th, 2015, 4:05 pm

Helleri wrote:It's very likely to be culprits*...though if it were one sinister individual it would be a luagh. Because, worst super villain ever.

Brian Hubbs was a regular herper, if a bit eccentric. One day he was innocently fixing a misplaced board next to the dump when a black widow mutated by toxic waste bit him under the fingernail. Moving through the countryside painting curbs by day, he now transforms into a hideous creature at night, The Destroyer of Lines :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: With his intimate knowledge of board placement, super stealth abilities transmitted by the black widow, and an intense rage brought on by the personal tragedy his good deed had led to, no herper's board line will ever be safe again.

:shock:

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Re: WTF is the matter with people?

Post by hellihooks » April 15th, 2015, 5:05 pm

jonathan wrote:

Brian Hubbs was a regular herper, if a bit eccentric. One day he was innocently fixing a misplaced board next to the dump when a black widow mutated by toxic waste bit him under the fingernail. Moving through the countryside painting curbs by day, he now transforms into a hideous creature at night, The Destroyer of Lines :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: With his intimate knowledge of board placement, super stealth abilities transmitted by the black widow, and an intense rage brought on by the personal tragedy his good deed had led to, no herper's board line will ever be safe again
Nawww... if he ever went through with his proposed 'Board Line Wars'... it would be a show on AP, by now... :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol: :lol:
:shock:

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Speckled Rosy
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Re: WTF is the matter with people?

Post by Speckled Rosy » April 20th, 2015, 5:59 pm

This is kinda funny and sad at the same time. Hubbs is at my house right now and he says he didn't do it. In fact, he hasn't even been to Yolo county this year. And he has only seen 2 kings this spring, both were in San Luis Obispo county last month. He's tired of the board game, so now he's just photographing turtles. He says it's easier and doesn't require any lifting of anything... :lol:

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Re: WTF is the matter with people?

Post by chris_mcmartin » April 20th, 2015, 7:24 pm

Let me know when he says he's heading east...I need advance warning.

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Brian Hubbs
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Re: WTF is the matter with people?

Post by Brian Hubbs » April 21st, 2015, 7:23 pm

You know I always give you at least an hours notice...sheesh... :lol:

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