Educational Ethics

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ThomWild
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Educational Ethics

Post by ThomWild »

First off a note to the Mod. I was unsure about the best place to put this so if it would fit better somewhere else by all means move it.

Now on to a bit of a dilemma. I am a high school biology/history teacher and I keep snakes in my classroom as educational assistants. I have a student in one of my World Civ. classes that is from a culture that has very strong religious/cultural beliefs that snakes will bring harm to people. I was contacted by the parents letting me know the cultural differences and asked if I would remove the snakes from my classroom, simply covering them was not enough, it was either the snakes or the student. I am the only person that teaches this particular class so simply changing teachers was not an option.

Note that this situation has already been addressed with a plan in place so I am not asking for you to solve my problems for me, but from an education standpoint; what would you do in this or a similar situation?

Would I be missing an educational opportunity with this student by accommodating this student and moving the snakes out of the room?

Or would I be sending the wrong message and burning possibly far reaching bridges in regards to the herpetology field by pushing back and fighting this one?

*** I realize I was vague in my descriptions of the student's exact beliefs and culture and that is by design. My intent is not to start a stone throwing episode to belittle or attack these particular beliefs, anyone that knows me knows I am about as weird as they come. Please be considerate to specific cultures if you choose to participate.
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Jeff
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by Jeff »

Your statement "bring harm" is equivocal - bring spiritual harm? physical harm? Perhaps holding the snake and allowing each student, volunteer only, to come and touch the snake, as per potential physical agonistic reactions. The kid in question can watch through the classroom door. That would be educational. Invite mom and dad as well. Spirituality is a different matter.

I gave a talk on rattlesnake evolution in an upper division zoology course in college. First slide up and some guy from Ghana bulldozed through the rows of students toward the doorway, and I don't recall whether he took time to open the door.

Plan B: in a World Civ class, have said student compose a research paper on spiritual views of snakes in world cultures.

Plan C (or A): do what the school administrators advise.

Jeff
ThomWild
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by ThomWild »

Jeff wrote:Your statement "bring harm" is equivocal - bring spiritual harm? physical harm?
All of the above. You are negatively impacted both spiritually and physically by being in the presence of a snake or a snake spirit.
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cbernz
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by cbernz »

ThomWild wrote:
Jeff wrote:Your statement "bring harm" is equivocal - bring spiritual harm? physical harm?
All of the above. You are negatively impacted both spiritually and physically by being in the presence of a snake or a snake spirit.
Recommend that the kid's family pack up and move to Ireland.

Seriously, though, what religions/cultures DON'T have some sort of snake taboos or demonizing mythology? Certainly our culture in America is far from exempt. My own feeling is that if you let the ridiculous superstition of a kid (and supposedly the parents) win out over logic and common sense, you might as well just forego education entirely and have the kid be homeschooled in his snake-exorcised safe zone.

It's also important to take a step back and realize that, though this particular kid's superstitions may be especially strong, EVERY kid has to encounter some sort of friction or discomfort over the course of their education. No kid gets handed an education specially tailored to align with all his beliefs and avoid all his qualms and phobias (at least, not in secular education). The notion of customizing or censoring your kid's education by complaining about, or opting out of, experiences you dislike seems to be a relatively new one, and I think it's a disturbing and backwards trend. It's bad enough that kids get deprived of sex ed because of their parents' religion, but to have parents deciding what harmless animals can and can't live in a classroom? Nuts to that.

I think people need to understand that if they come here to join a free, secular society, one that protects and celebrates their right to live and believe as they wish (more or less) without interference, they need to accept the educational system that helps make that society possible.
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chris_mcmartin
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by chris_mcmartin »

I am unclear as to whether this student "comes from a culture" here within the US or is a recent arrival (maybe an exchange student?). That context may be crucial in determining the best way forward. The "nuts to you--assimilate!" approach may actually work better with someone who has recently joined US mainstream society, than someone who's grown up here and potentially had plenty of time to learn how to use the threat of legal recourse to their advantage.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by Kelly Mc »

What culture is it?

Is it a basic tenet of that culture or a locality tradition?

Have you looked into it and checked out what the snake thing is about?

Could it actually be more of that families' belief?

I have noticed people of many genres use thought-stopping tactics to dominate others into shying away from taking a stand for fear of being seen as politically incorrect.

I'm really curious what culture that is. The snake spirits in my room fill the hours with peace.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by Kelly Mc »

The clearest path to understanding any thing is fearless transparency.
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gbin
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by gbin »

It seems to me that the crux of the matter is whether the religiously/culturally offending object (be it an animal or whatever else) is integral to the subject being taught in the class. So for example if this student or his/her parents objected on religious grounds to your teaching evolution, well, then they'll just have to get over it; evolution is not only integral, it's at the core of biology. Or if you were teaching herpetology then instruction on and even exposure to snakes undoubtedly belongs. But in a general biology class your snakes are really just props - albeit perhaps at times very useful props, and certainly props that you've good reason to believe you've a personal right to use - and as such can readily be removed without any threat to the class' integrity.

Ordinarily I'm all about standing up for principle (the principle in this case being that your right to have harmless creatures that you find useful in teaching a science class should supersede the superstitious concerns a rare student might have about those creatures) and very wary of allowing a bad precedent to be established, but in a case such as this I'd instead be pragmatic for the sake of educating this student and the others in his/her class, and of preserving an atmosphere in which you can do so without unnecessary distraction/disruption. I imagine you've made various other sacrifices in the course of becoming and then performing as a teacher (i.e. you've surrendered other personal rights, for good cause or otherwise, for the sake of learning and being effective in your profession). Taking your snakes home for a semester or a year until that rare student is no longer an issue seems only a small, easily borne addition to those.

And kudos to you for taking on such a job, by the way! :thumb: There's no way I would sign on to a career teaching high school-age children unless I was allowed to hormonally suppress them to control their behavior... ;)

Gerry
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by FrogO_Oeyes »

Screw 'em. I'm not aware of any such religious practice [which is not to say they're not real], but in a secular classroom, the onus is on the claimant to prove it's their [reasonable] religious practice, and not simply a more local tradition. The latter gets no accommodation. Regardless of what the nature of THIS class might be, where is the line then drawn? Do they get removed from biology classes for the same reason? Do we remove anatomical models as well? All photos of people because of the 'spirits' captured on film or because 'graven images' are contrary to Islam [to name but one specific example]? I would also suggest that in this case, their practices are also impinging upon the education of everyone else in the classes affected

Screw 'em!

Education in secular countries [particularly the USA] is constantly being undermined by an endless list of delusional beliefs. The only way forward is through logic and science, which religion and other superstitions are anathema to.
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BillMcGighan
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by BillMcGighan »

Wow, quite a dilemma. Hope you worked out a compromise.

Do I understand right? The animals are housed in a classroom that is for both biology and World Civ and this student is in there for World Civ?

In the real world, the big picture is more important. I think many of us here on the forum would prefer the scientific route than the belief system route, but, as you well know, you’re dealing with complex dynamics.

Sure you can make a stand, if you feel your principles (or principals) are compromised, but, is this specific instance worth losing your job, and possible income for your family?

There are always two sides to the story with your boss; the boss’s side and the outside! :)
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by Kelly Mc »

There's huge diversity here and I'm trying to remember a time when I was asked to point out were the snakes were, so that spiritual harm could be avoided, and there hasn't been a single time.
I have however, been assailed with countless phone calls and inquiries over the years about animals, doves, turtles etc for human "cultural" events, beliefs. And yes they are delusional and exploitive practices. It Ain't Happening, No turtle For You. And no one can make me "respect" those kinds of beliefs either.


As to the classroom it may not be your job to define and enforce political correctness to your students. That seems like its a parent thing.

But no matter how things are explained actions speak louder than words and responding to an Emperor Has No Clothes scenario in the classroom seems educationally incongruent.
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gbin
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by gbin »

BillMcGighan wrote:Sure you can make a stand, if you feel your principles (or principals) are compromised...
Well done! :thumb:

FrogO asked where the line is drawn. I offered one such that makes sense to me: whether the animals or whatever are intergral to the class being taught. Still, it seems a pretty tough situation to me...

Gerry
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mfb
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by mfb »

I have to think this one through a bit more, but I am leaning towards Gerry's position. If (1) the beliefs are legitimate, (2) this is a required course with no other option (e.g., teach class in a different room, take class from different teacher), (3) snakes are not integral part of class (e.g., need snakes in a herpetology class, but not a history class), I would think it is appropriate to move the snakes for the semester. But I'm not completely made up in my mind yet.

By the way, kudos to you for making the extra effort to have the snakes for your students! My teachers who made extra efforts like that made a huge positive impact on my life.

If you are comfortable sharing, I would be interested in hearing what the final resolution was.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by Kelly Mc »

What makes the beliefs legitimate?

What are they? What is this unique sect that cannot tolerate the proxy of snakes in cages in a classroom?

I don't buy it.
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gbin
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by gbin »

mfb wrote:By the way, kudos to you for making the extra effort to have the snakes for your students! My teachers who made extra efforts like that made a huge positive impact on my life.
Thanks, mfb, for bringing up something else I meant but forgot to say. You know, I still have strong, fond memories of becoming the primary caregiver for a tiger salamander that a junior high teacher of natural history kept in the back of the room - and he just had it there, not trying to incorporate it into any lessons or anything. Kudos to you for that extra effort, too, Thom, however your situation turned out (and I'm curious about that as well, by the way)! :thumb:

Gerry
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cbernz
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by cbernz »

My feeling is that a kid who seriously believes that a snake in a cage is going to suck out his soul or make his teeth fall out (or whatever) from across the room is probably not ready for a modern American classroom. Who knows what other mystical voodoo claptrap is floating around in such a mind? And isn't giving your kids a better education than you got the whole point of coming to a first-world country? So that your kids can function in the modern world without going into convulsions over snakes, black cats, and witches?

That's the idealistic me. The pragmatic me agrees with Gerry. A snake or two probably isn't worth jeopardizing your reputation or that of the school. Although, I wonder how this would have played out if it was a bird or a guinea pig that the kid had a problem with. Would the school take his phobia more or less seriously?

Did you consider just removing the snakes temporarily for the one period that kid is in the classroom? Maybe they could have a foster home in someone else's classroom for that time, or you could just bag them and put them in an unused room or closet for 50 minutes.
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gbin
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by gbin »

Sadly, when I was teaching (college level, not high school) I encountered a small but steady trickle of students who weren't ready for the instruction they were receiving. Sometimes it was a lack of basic prerequisite knowledge but more often it was inadequate language skills. All I could do was try my best to assist those who sought my help outside of the classroom (as there was no time for remedial instruction during class) - which in a few cases meant flatly advising the students in question to drop the class and get more instruction in English before they tackled it again - and then let the chips fall where they would. The superstition-based issues that occasionally arose in my classes were predictable and easily handled at the college level. ("This is a science class, and will be restricted to scientific matters. Period.") As I said, I don't think you could pay me enough to try teaching high school. It must take a better person than I am! ;)

Gerry
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by Kelly Mc »

A few years ago we had a college student from a privileged background here for summer work. Very shortly after hire she notified us that she couldn't clean the cricket bins, because crickets could be inadvertently injured and or killed during process. This would be in direct conflict with her religious beliefs. Some time after that I noticed her sitting at the counter eating a ham sandwich that she got across the street. I asked her about it and she informed me that it was ok for her to eat the ham sandwich, as long as she didn't directly inflict the harm on the pig.

She continued to be excused from cleaning the crickets, a crucial task that we all do, because of her belief system. We were forced to comply with it.
Tamara D. McConnell
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by Tamara D. McConnell »

I'm a teacher, and I've dealt with parents who flip-out over snakes in my classroom. Whether they are right or wrong is beside the point. My professional life operates much more smoothly when I am on good terms with my students' parents. I don't need the aggravation of irate parents. I believe that it is beneficial for kids to be able to hold snakes and actively assist in their care. However, the rural community where I work does not agree. My compromise is to agree to never bring the snakes out of their cages in the presence of the students. I think this is stupid. However, part of my job is to fit myself into the scheme of things as they exist, not as I would like them to be. They don't pay me to make waves. I'm gonna do what I need to do at work, and then do what I want to do at home. I don't want to have to use up any of my time with unnecessary dealings with administrative figures. An upset parent can cause problems I don't need, even if the parent is absolutely wrong.
I'm not saying this is how anybody should operate in their classroom. I wouldn't presume to advise anybody. I'm just saying that for me, caving made more sense than fighting. I gotta pick my battles. There have been a coupla years when I did not have snakes in my classroom at all, because somebody or other objected.
Please let us know what you decide. I am very interested in the outcome.
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BillMcGighan
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by BillMcGighan »

I'm a teacher, and I've dealt with parents who flip-out over snakes in my classroom. Whether they are right or wrong is beside the point. My professional life operates much more smoothly when I am on good terms with my students' parents. I don't need the aggravation of irate parents. I believe that it is beneficial for kids to be able to hold snakes and actively assist in their care. However, the rural community where I work does not agree. My compromise is to agree to never bring the snakes out of their cages in the presence of the students. I think this is stupid. However, part of my job is to fit myself into the scheme of things as they exist, not as I would like them to be. They don't pay me to make waves. I'm gonna do what I need to do at work, and then do what I want to do at home. I don't want to have to use up any of my time with unnecessary dealings with administrative figures. An upset parent can cause problems I don't need, even if the parent is absolutely wrong.
And that my friends is a dose of the "real world", not ideology, from someone who walks the walk and talks the talk.

:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by Coluber Constrictor »

.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by Kelly Mc »

BillMcGighan wrote:
I'm a teacher, and I've dealt with parents who flip-out over snakes in my classroom. Whether they are right or wrong is beside the point. My professional life operates much more smoothly when I am on good terms with my students' parents. I don't need the aggravation of irate parents. I believe that it is beneficial for kids to be able to hold snakes and actively assist in their care. However, the rural community where I work does not agree. My compromise is to agree to never bring the snakes out of their cages in the presence of the students. I think this is stupid. However, part of my job is to fit myself into the scheme of things as they exist, not as I would like them to be. They don't pay me to make waves. I'm gonna do what I need to do at work, and then do what I want to do at home. I don't want to have to use up any of my time with unnecessary dealings with administrative figures. An upset parent can cause problems I don't need, even if the parent is absolutely wrong.
And that my friends is a dose of the "real world", not ideology, from someone who walks the walk and talks the talk. Quote.




Really? I teach alot too. Many of the people I teach are teachers with animals in the classroom.

The above sure rings a familiar bell. Not making waves, real life made easy..

And here I thought teaching was about Dispensing Truth.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by Kelly Mc »

As a matter of fact I'm going upstairs to "walk the walk" now, only I'm in the basement trying to find a shallow tank to use as a learning tool. Not a teacher this situation
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by Kelly Mc »

I don't want my comments to be absorbed as critique as much as they may because of having to be brief. But when animals are involved in a learning experience a different set of rules apply.

These are the other denizens of the planet. Introduction to them and all the work that comes with it is a big deal of huge human scope and it isn't easy navigating through it.
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by hellihooks »

as this is an 'Ethical' problem... the solution lies in Ethics... the moral theory the parents claim is called 'relativism'... which no Ethicist worth his/her salt will condone. What it basically says is moral values are subject to culture, and if something is ok within a certain culture, it trumps universal value mores.
This makes cannabalism, infantacide, incest, etc OK. Those cultures are wrong... those things are NOT ok, no matter how many generations have been doing them.

What's needed is a 'crash course' in Ethics, for the student and his parents, so that they will see that removing the snakes from the classroom is tantamount to condoning and allowing 'Cultural Relativism' which then makes ANYTHING culturally-driven (cannabalism, infantacide, incest, etc) ok. You are morally obligated NOT to teach that to the rest of your students, for the sake of one culture's mistaken beliefs. jim
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by Kfen »

To play the Devil's Advocate- how do we KNOW their (or anyone else's belief) is wrong if it applies to spirituality and not actual physical harm? How do we KNOW that we (snake lovers) are not going to to come back as a lesser being/go to hell/ pay in the afterlife etc. because we put ourselves in the company of snakes?

To the OP, you asked what I would do- I would leave the decision up to my boss. Explain the situation and my side of the story, my views and ideas about what should be done, and then put it in their court. This is the type of thing that you need to know if your school is going to back you on.
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by ThomWild »

If only ethics or science were the only issue, unfortunately politics play a big role which often trumps the other two and throw them in the garbage.

Thanks for all of the replies. I can see the arguments for every one of your comments. In this case I agreed to move the snakes into the lab during the class period this student is in my class. If this student had been in my biology class I wouldn't have compromised, but one of the primary objectives in my history class is to learn about and respect the differences in the civilizations we study no matter how weird or illogical they may seem to us. I figured by not compromising with the student I would be putting any further teaching opportunity in jeopardy. I recognize the need to correct incorrect thoughts and principles but I also have to choose the best way to do that. In this circumstance I chose to compromise in order to further develop the student in other areas, hoping that as their educational path continues with me and other teachers the student will have a broader base and be a bit more teachable in that specific regard. If I were to force the issue now I risk losing any opportunity to teach that student anything because in their eyes and in the eyes of the parents I lost all credibility and a wall is immediately put between us. That was my rational, I don't know if it is right or wrong necessarily but it was my choice to make.

I am not going to get into the exact culture or beliefs of this group of people on this forum because my purpose is not to single this group out. In all fairness these same beliefs protect snakes throughout their lands as it is also taboo to kill or harm a snake in any way, directly (e.g. with a shovel or a gun) as well as indirectly (e.g. inadvertently while driving on the road). You are welcome to PM me if you would like to know more.

Thanks again,
-Thomas
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BillMcGighan
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by BillMcGighan »

Wow,
Good job, Thomas :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:



Knowing "the exact culture or beliefs of this group of people" is irrelevant, only that you came to a win-win solution and will be there to help present positive herp info.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by Kelly Mc »

Yes I wasn't afraid to ask, as I see many people come through here of many cultures and in traditional garb and they have looked at the snakes.


I myself am in a "marginalized" category.

I just don't see much as Taboo to discuss.
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by Tamara D. McConnell »


And here I thought teaching was about Dispensing Truth.
In a perfect world, sure.
In my actual school system (and many others), it's about teaching the curriculum the school board gives me, following their policies, and operating within the parameters my employers set. If I don't do that, I am welcome to find employment elsewhere.
Every job has its pros and cons. Overall, I like mine.

edited to add: Thom, sounds like you came to a good solution.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by Kelly Mc »

Tamara D. McConnell wrote:

And here I thought teaching was about Dispensing Truth.
In a perfect world, sure.
In my actual school system (and many others), it's about teaching the curriculum the school board gives me, following their policies, and operating within the parameters my employers set. If I don't do that, I am welcome to find employment elsewhere.
Every job has its pros and cons. Overall, I like mine.

edited to add: Thom, sounds like you came to a good solution.
Tamara if I had noted the posts author that Bill quoted, I probably would have taken more time in my wording which was too brusque, because you have been one of the few who have ever showed me fellowship here. I think the implication of speaking in ideologicals stated by Bill i took a little personally, as I work very hard trying to help people even going to their houses and giving them my own gear and supplies.

I know alot of teachers and I know about those perimeters. But I have also had to work with expectations that I will cater to lackadaisical levels of engagement and animals in the classroom as props more than incredible opportunities in science, responsibility and empathy for the leaving. Not always but more than should occur.

I often hit walls of resistance and disappointing value systems.

You and Thomas are great teachers and I understand its a difficult career.

But you are fortunate to be recognized as a Teacher.
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by Tamara D. McConnell »

But I have also had to work with expectations that I will cater to lackadaisical levels of engagement and animals in the classroom as props more than incredible opportunities in science, responsibility and empathy for the leaving. Not always but more than should occur.
Yeah, I see this too. My first response when a teacher tells me they are getting a classroom pet is usually to inwardly cringe, and say a silent prayer for the animal. I don't like the animals-as-props thing. I don't like to see animals kept poorly or without respect. In fact, if I were a principal, I'd probably make a blanket prohibition against classroom pets, and then only occasionally allow rare exceptions. Especially turtles. I've seen too many examples of them kept in poor conditions in classrooms. It disturbs me very much. And don't even get me started about teachers who order non-native frogs, butterflies, etc. to raise and release. I know they mean well, but it's not a good thing.
You and I are on the same page, Kelly. No worries.
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gbin
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by gbin »

Tamara D. McConnell wrote:... I don't like the animals-as-props thing. I don't like to see animals kept poorly or without respect...
These might occur together far more often than anyone here would like, but I feel compelled to point out that this need not be the case nor is it by any means always so. And such living props (which they are regardless of however passively or actively they're utilized in the classroom) certainly can have various beneficial effects.

When you become a principal, Tamara, I'd suggest that rather than prohibiting classroom pets, you instead require that they be maintained by a strict set of animal care and welfare standards (and you do at least some level of policing to ensure this requirement is being met). It'll mean more work for you as well as for the teachers involved, to be sure, but after all that's really what we're talking about here: extra effort by the educators in order to make for a richer learning experience for the students.

It shouldn't surprise anyone (nor hopefully upset anyone too much) that we have a diversity of opinions on the best way to resolve a situation such as Thomas faced. It really is a tough situation in a number of ways... :?

Gerry
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by Kelly Mc »

Countless bent up bearded dragons, deformed RES (one that lived in a critter keeper with a chunk of street cement for a basking area, so small that its survival defied explanation) Leopard Geckos with necrosed toes, Leopard Geckos with no toes, Leopard Geckos with eyes sealed shut, Leopard Geckos who are rail thin, Corn Snakes who are on a starvation diet (I have noticed this alot - confoundingly snakes kept on pinkies indefinitely) various reptiles of all types no longer wanted because they have grown to require larger housing, or it has been discovered that they need things, like a light set up or more types of food than just one.
Reptiles released into the wild - one such event with a year kept non native snake was turned into a class expedition.


These are just a sample and a modest incomplete list of Living Props that had no beneficial effects other than it not repeated to the dogged best of my ability.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by Kelly Mc »

I want to be clear that I think Thomas Rocks it in the classroom and so does Mrs McConnell. Its probably because they rock in other major ways and it cant help but pour out in their teaching.

I didnt think knowing the culture was irrelevant because I was curious and wondered about the culture aspect being exaggerated by the family to achieve what they wanted, because they had an acute fear of snakes, or their kid did. Not to say there arent storylines or beliefs in various traditions that view snakes negatively, but during any given week sooner or later I could have asked an individual of that culture their take on being near snakes in a class in real life and I would have.

I have observed people who have ingrained homeland trepidation of snakes to be among the most fascinated by them of all when they see them behind glass.
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gbin
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by gbin »

Kelly Mc wrote:Countless bent up bearded dragons, deformed RES (one that lived in a critter keeper with a chunk of street cement for a basking area, so small that its survival defied explanation) Leopard Geckos with necrosed toes, Leopard Geckos with no toes, Leopard Geckos with eyes sealed shut, Leopard Geckos who are rail thin, Corn Snakes who are on a starvation diet (I have noticed this alot - confoundingly snakes kept on pinkies indefinitely) various reptiles of all types no longer wanted because they have grown to require larger housing, or it has been discovered that they need things, like a light set up or more types of food than just one.
Reptiles released into the wild - one such event with a year kept non native snake was turned into a class expedition.

These are just a sample and a modest incomplete list of Living Props that had no beneficial effects other than it not repeated to the dogged best of my ability.
Kel, I'm sorry, but I honestly don't know who you're preaching to. I haven't seen anyone come anywhere close to suggesting that classroom animals never suffer poor care nor that it doesn't matter if they do. For my part, I said:
gbin wrote:... rather than prohibiting classroom pets,... instead require that they be maintained by a strict set of animal care and welfare standards (and... do at least some level of policing to ensure this requirement is being met)...
Equally honestly, I don't see how you could know for a certainty that at no time did anyone ever enjoy any beneficial effects whatsoever from exposure to any of the poor creatures you mentioned. At the very least, their exhibited suffering might have prompted the occasional child to feel compassion for them and to carry that compassion home and give more attention to their own pets. More than the least, as I mentioned earlier I for one certainly benefited from animals kept in my classrooms when I was a child, even if they were just used as static exhibits; I bet I'm nowhere near alone in this experience, too. You just don't know.

As always I admire your passionate and activist nature, but remember that passion can easily lead people astray when it's applied without broader vision and priority. A natural extension of what you're saying (or at least, what I hear that you're saying) is that people shouldn't have pets at all. After all, a great many of them suffer neglect, inappropriate care and even abuse (even if many more don't). At least in a classroom setting there is the real potential - too rarely acted upon, yes, but the real potential nonetheless - for oversight. School administrators could and should see to it that proper standards of care are met for classroom animals by the teachers who have them; they needn't simply be banned if said administrators are willing to give this matter the attention it requires.

Gerry
Tamara D. McConnell
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by Tamara D. McConnell »

When you become a principal, Tamara, I'd suggest that rather than prohibiting classroom pets, you instead require that they be maintained by a strict set of animal care and welfare standards (and you do at least some level of policing to ensure this requirement is being met). It'll mean more work for you as well as for the teachers involved, to be sure, but after all that's really what we're talking about here: extra effort by the educators in order to make for a richer learning experience for the students.
Well, yes, this is better than a prohibition. I agree with you. And for the record, I don't ever want to be a principal. Doesn't look at all like a fun job.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by Kelly Mc »

Where would Astray be?

add edit., We all have work we do. I have only been led by work to see that if things stay as they are it can't end well.
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gbin
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by gbin »

Kelly Mc wrote:Where would Astray be?
In this particular case? In the broadest sense, I guess toward advocating that no one should ever be allowed to keep animals because some people who do don't treat them right. In a more specific sense, toward advocating that classroom animals should never be allowed because some aren't treated right. Both are quite astray in my estimation, though I realize that both have their (in my opinion, misguided) proponents out there.

I'm sure that you know extremely well that keeping animals and having captive animals around provide some fairly major benefits to people. As I understand it, you've pretty much devoted your professional life to captive animal care :thumb: , so hopefully you regularly enjoy some of those benefits, yourself. I don't know whether you are really aware, though, or maybe more accurately whether you always manage to keep in mind given your laudable deep concern for mistreated animals, that a strong case can be made for animals benefiting from it, too. I'm not talking about benefits for the animals that are being kept, mind you, but for animals in general. Plenty of studies have amply demonstrated that people with direct experience with animals tend to have a greater affinity for the natural world than those who only have passive exposure to animals, people with passive exposure to animals tend to have a greater affinity for the natural world than those who have neither experience nor exposure, and - here's the kicker - people with a greater affinity for the natural world tend to vote, spend and otherwise act in ways that are better for it.

The ultimate goal of activism is to be productive, to change things for the better. Productivity, whether we're measuring it in terms of the goods we produce or the good we do, always entails both benefits and costs. The most productive course is to endeavor to weigh those two against each other and pursue whatever might reasonably be expected to result in the most favorable ratio. Ignoring that something has benefits because you find some of its costs so distasteful, or conversely ignoring that something has costs because you're so enamored of its benefits, is actually counterproductive. It can all too easily lead you to work against what your activism is presumably aimed toward, i.e. astray.

Yes, I am saying that having some captive animals suffer and die due to poor care is an acceptable cost given the benefit they and others provide in terms of increasing people's affinity for the natural world (even apart from all the various other benefits we enjoy from keeping animals). That shouldn't shock you, as I know you've heard me say it or something much like it before. As a scientist who cares deeply about wildlife and wild lands conservation and accordingly tries to apply broader vision and priority to the subject - i.e. to conduct however crudely that cost-benefit analysis and act accordingly - there's really no other way for me to see it. I understand that sometimes other people have other priorities, though, and for instance you might consider what happens to individual animals during their lifetimes as much more important than what happens to their entire species in the future. In that case we simply have a fundamental disagreement. That's OK, I still find you quite likeable (and in many ways quite admirable) despite your possible wrongheadedness about this. ;)

That's where I'm coming from, anyway.

Gerry

P.S. I agree with you, Tamara, that being a principal doesn't look at all like a fun job. Unfortunately, the people whose sensibilities would enable them to serve best in various capacities (e.g. as administrators) rarely want anything to do with such jobs because of those very sensibilities. When I used to teach biology to college students, I always advised my classes that those who had dreams of helping wildlife someday would do much more for the cause by becoming lawyers or politicians than wildlife biologists, but none of them were any more persuadable than I would have been. It's a conundrum, to be sure. :?
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by Kelly Mc »

I would never be accepted by activists. Im not one. I would qualify as a servant who knows what I would take * for.

Edit :)
hellihooks
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by hellihooks »

I still contend that demonstrating to the rest of the students in the class, that 'cultural relativism' is a viable theory, is the most serious issue here. hurts 30-some other students, for the sake of one student's (parents most likely) misguided beliefs???
Sometimes people just need to be told that their beliefs are wrong. :roll: jim
ThomWild
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by ThomWild »

hellihooks wrote:I still contend that demonstrating to the rest of the students in the class, that 'cultural relativism' is a viable theory, is the most serious issue here. hurts 30-some other students, for the sake of one student's (parents most likely) misguided beliefs???
Sometimes people just need to be told that their beliefs are wrong. :roll: jim
Jim I understand your point which is why I would not have compromised if the student was in a biology class, but I don't see its application in this situation. I believe it is possible to accommodate while still letting people know they are wrong. I have addressed the science with the student but I still need that student to be as comfortable in my class as possible so I can continue to teach that individual the requirements of the history class. As it is a history class the student is in and not a life science class there is no cultural relativism because the snakes don't play a role in the class. In this case they are not right or wrong, they are distractions and it is my responsibility to limit those distractions. It would have been the same situation had a student not been able to handle the snakes being in the class because they were an avid herper resulting in a loss of the students attention from the objectives at hand; it would still be my responsibility to limit the distraction and have the snakes removed from the class even though there was no illogical rational behind the fascination.

-Thomas
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by Kelly Mc »

It almost seems that if the parents were sincerely that culturally sensitive they would have more contention with what's taught in a world civ class than some snakes in tanks.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by Kelly Mc »

Yesterday as I was looking/posting on this thread AT THE SAME TIME, a middle age man and a younger man, perhaps his young adult son, came upstairs. The younger guy wore ordinary western clothes all the way but the older guy had full BLANK style beard and traditional BLANK cap on. He leaned over to look into Kyles house (Sonoran Gopher) who gets fed today and Kyle came to the front and they were looking at each other momentarily. I wanted to take a picture of them so bad it hurt It was awesome irony :D


edit didn't mean for the red, but this peachy color .

Smart phone :roll:
hellihooks
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by hellihooks »

Thomas... I respect you decision, and appreciate it's rational. My main point would be that a disscussion about 'cultural relativism' with the parents (by letter perhaps) would be the best avenue towards resolving this dilemna, and preventing further problems.

IMO... Ethics should be a required subject in any curriculum, but sadly... is not.

I also appreciate what a tightrope a situation like this is... and how easy it is to alienate those we hope to educate... a disscussion of the underlying philosophy, and showing the parents that how what they asked is equal to condoning things like cannabalism, incest, the holocast, etc... might help them see that 'culture' (whether theirs or someone elses) does not trump universal values.

We do the best we can, as teachers... when my (very religious) wife was giving birth to our second son... I made the Hospital put her in another room, as being in room 666 was just causing my wife too much unneccessary stress... :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:

We all like to consider ourselves 'idealists' but usually in real life, are forced to be utilitarian... :oops: :beer: jim
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chris_mcmartin
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by chris_mcmartin »

You don't have to be happy about the concept of cultural relativism to acknowledge it plays a significant role (more than you'd like) in daily life, even here in the US.

If you disagree, please tell me where I can find a good source of horse meat for human consumption in the United States. ;)
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by ThomWild »

Well stated Jim.

Chris some might say especially in the U.S.

-Thomas
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by Kelly Mc »

I highly doubt suggesting to the parents that what they asked is similiar to cannibalism, that saying that would have an eye opening effect. Surely you must be joking.

As for idealisms verses real life, how many times during the week do any of the posters actually have actual contact with diversity, anyway? Where you live, walk and work, brick and mortar?

Every one - on some level - knows whats going on all the time. We communicate in nuances , cued by personal experiences and social/ media messages, as well.

It varies in acuity, usage and even attention span, but its there and has been a learned continuem since the first moment we ever made eye contact, and from then on.

In real life, people sense fear, and we also "teach" people how to "treat" us.

Sometimes diffusion is the best strategy.

Sometimes a quietly stated : No.

But bringing cannibalism and hints of political worries to this discussion, here, kind of reinforces what I thought from the start, that the parents used the culture card cause they knew it would get the school jumpin. They didnt like the snakes so - bye snakes!

The question that wasnt asked here, was if it were just an ordinary local kid, in the World Civ class, and the parents were afraid of snakes and wanted them out of the room, would there have been the same compliance?
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by Kelly Mc »

I do notice how my points have been discreetly excluded (kind of as usual) by everyone except two people that dont exclude people, from the exchange in this thread.

So since thats the deal again I want to be clear (since there isnt any feedback to know) that there wasnt any "criticism" of how Thomas handled his business. Only he knows how it really went down, and what instincts and professional assessments he used in his quandry.

I was just stating another view, and know Im not the only one with it. There are alot of people that dont actually post. I always consider that, every time I do.
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gbin
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Re: Educational Ethics

Post by gbin »

chris_mcmartin wrote:... please tell me where I can find a good source of horse meat for human consumption in the United States. ;)
Hey, I'd like to know, too! I used to love horse meat summer sausage when I was a child. :P My family actually bought it because it better fit our budget, but we kids thought of it as especially good rather than especially cheap.

While we're talking about such things (and given that the original topic seems to have run its course), can anyone recommend a rabbit-based raw meat cat food that I could try with my special dietary need cat? Yes, this is a serious request for help. I was using Feline's Pride's Rabbit Formula for the past several years (most of the cat's life so far), but they've suddenly become way too unreliable, and also way too uncaring about what that unreliability can mean for their customers' cats. (In my case, they strung me along for three weeks after taking the money for my last order - and that was no paltry sum, by the way - ultimately leaving me in the lurch with nothing to feed my cat as of the day after tomorrow. At the very best, I can now look forward to my cat suffering a prolonged bout of vomiting, diarrhea and inappetence until I find a suitable substitute. :( )

Kel, I always think of myself as writing primarily for the sake of all those who prefer not to post, too. They're definitely out there (I even hear from the occasional one of them by PM, from time to time), so keep at it! And you doubtless know without my telling you that there's a lot of cliquishness to be found here, with some people tending to respond (or respond meaningfully, anyway) only to those they like. So it goes... :? Anyway, I'm sorry that what I wrote above might help distract folks even further from what you've got to say, but I really do have a cat-feeding crisis going on and playing off of Chris' post really did seem to offer me a chance to ask people here (most definitely including you!) for help with it. Plus I wrote the above paragraphs before your last post, and only added this last paragraph when I saw your last post while proofreading before posting... ;)

Please PM me any relevant cat food suggestions, folks!

Gerry
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