Bagging snakes for photos?

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krismunk
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Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by krismunk »

A recent Borneo trip report - http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... =2&t=21025 - spawned a discussion on the ethics of bagging snakes, sometimes for several days, for the purposes of photography. This debate really deserves its own thread so please continue here.

Personally, I don't have much to add to what has already been said by critics of the practice, notably Kelly & Jeroen.
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by hellihooks »

Every herping encounter entails either a subconscious or conscious 'cost/benefit analysis' which I believe was the orginal thread's OP's position, which in principle I agree with.

I think Kelly's position is to advocate that the health and welfare of the herps in question weigh more heavily in these equations. I commend her for that.

There are typically (IMO) way too many variables to set any hard and fast rules, but the ever-present 'cost/benefit analyses' we all employ might be thought of in terms of positive vs negative utility.

Does the positive utility of getting a great shot outweigh the negative utility suffered by the Herp?... probably not.

Does the positive utility of gaining important data, which may help (dare i say save) the species at large outweigh the negative utility suffered by the Herp? I'd say yeah.

Might it be ok to bag a herp for 1/2 hr, to get good shots... depending on the species, it's temperment at the time (warm or cold) it's difficulty to find, and a host of other variables... should and could be ok.

Keeping a common irasible herp in a bag for several days, just to get a pic... I'd say no.

And then... people are different in how (dare I say) self-centered they are... for one person, no amount of stressing a herp is worth a pic... for others, the welfare of the herp matters little and all that matters is getting the shot. And everyone is somewhere tween the two.

IMO... what's most important is that folks consider these types of things BEFORE they hit the field, so they can make better judgements when presented with decisions while IN the field.

on a personal note... last time I bagged a herp so that a photographer could get better pics... i got tagged through the bag and spent the next 36 hrs in the ER. :? (went herping on the way home :crazyeyes: ) jim
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krismunk
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by krismunk »

hellihooks wrote:Every herping encounter entails either a subconscious or conscious 'cost/benefit analysis' which I believe was the orginal thread's OP's position, which in principle I agree with.

...There are typically (IMO) way too many variables to set any hard and fast rules, but the ever-present 'cost/benefit analyses' we all employ might be thought of in terms of positive vs negative utility.

...And then... people are different in how (dare I say) self-centered they are... for one person, no amount of stressing a herp is worth a pic... for others, the welfare of the herp matters little and all that matters is getting the shot. And everyone is somewhere tween the two.

...IMO... what's most important is that folks consider these types of things BEFORE they hit the field, so they can make better judgements when presented with decisions while IN the field.
Well put, Jim.

As someone nearer the no stressing end of the continuum I might add that of the occasions I have had to question my judgements and actions in the field the regrets of not behaving properly towards animals and environment have always weighed much heavier than the regrets of getting no or simply "poorer than necessary" pictures.
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by chris_mcmartin »

Keeping a herp in a bag for a quick photograph later seems to be better than other cases I've seen where an individual animal is prodded into various poses for half an hour or more by a large group of photographers. At least the bag is dark and snug, compared to the open/vulnerable sensation from a lengthy photo session.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by Kelly Mc »

chris_mcmartin wrote:Keeping a herp in a bag for a quick photograph later seems to be better than other cases I've seen where an individual animal is prodded into various poses for half an hour or more by a large group of photographers. At least the bag is dark and snug, compared to the open/vulnerable sensation from a lengthy photo session.

Yes Chris an excellent point not limiting behaviors with herp subject discussion, to bagging.
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by hellihooks »

chris_mcmartin wrote:Keeping a herp in a bag for a quick photograph later seems to be better than other cases I've seen where an individual animal is prodded into various poses for half an hour or more by a large group of photographers. At least the bag is dark and snug, compared to the open/vulnerable sensation from a lengthy photo session.
On an unusually windy Tejon Ranch Survey, (years ago) I happened to find the only 2 snakes of the day... a pair of Nor Pacs that looked more like So Pacs, that I pulled out of a crevice, where they had either just finished or just getting ready to breed (male was showing off his Hemi, if you get my drift) I snapped a photo voucher of each and went to look for other herps. that day, we happened to have 10-12 guys all with cameras that cost more than my car... and each one had to have his turn snapping 30 to 50 shots, so that when I returned 45 min later, the two snakes were still being photographed in the hot Sun.
I went off a bit (as much as I ever do) and chastised the group, scooped the snakes up and returned them to their crevase. I still regret what happened that day, but learned some valuable lessons...
1) don't leave herps you find to the care of others, lest their standards differ... and 2) if and when it gets to the point where you're invited along for your 'hot handeling' abilities (not the case that day, but the first installment of a lesson that took several more years to learn) you have in fact become a 'tool'.
Don't be a tool... :beer:
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by shredsteban »

hellihooks wrote:
chris_mcmartin wrote:Keeping a herp in a bag for a quick photograph later seems to be better than other cases I've seen where an individual animal is prodded into various poses for half an hour or more by a large group of photographers. At least the bag is dark and snug, compared to the open/vulnerable sensation from a lengthy photo session.
On an unusually windy Tejon Ranch Survey, (years ago) I happened to find the only 2 snakes of the day... a pair of Nor Pacs that looked more like So Pacs, that I pulled out of a crevice, where they had either just finished or just getting ready to breed (male was showing off his Hemi, if you get my drift) I snapped a photo voucher of each and went to look for other herps. that day, we happened to have 10-12 guys all with cameras that cost more than my car... and each one had to have his turn snapping 30 to 50 shots, so that when I returned 45 min later, the two snakes were still being photographed in the hot Sun.
I went off a bit (as much as I ever do) and chastised the group, scooped the snakes up and returned them to their crevase. I still regret what happened that day, but learned some valuable lessons...
1) don't leave herps you find to the care of others, lest their standards differ... and 2) if and when it gets to the point where you're invited along for your 'hot handeling' abilities (not the case that day, but the first installment of a lesson that took several more years to learn) you have in fact become a 'tool'.
Don't be a tool... :beer:
This is good to know. I've yet to herp with a large group of people that are as interested in the photography aspect as I am. I usually go solo or with 2 others max. And that's usually only during cruising events. But your post has given me a new perspective/mindset to maintain if I do go in large settings that can keep an animal stressed for too long. Plus I don't want to be a tool, so, thank you Jim! :thumb:

-Nick
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by Kelly Mc »

It would be good to be careful with them, and kind. They are so lovely and really quite defenseless.
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FloridaSerpent
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by FloridaSerpent »

To me the welfare of the animal is more important than getting a good shot. Although I like to handle herps, I try to be as gentle as I can and I try to spend minimal time with them. And as exciting as finding a beautiful specimen may be, I'd much rather it carry on and make more so I can continue to see said species.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by Kelly Mc »

A short duration of handling probably resembles what would be experienced by an animal as a natural stressor, like a close call with a predator, and induce biochemical and neural responses and consequences that an animal has an evolved precedence. While a long drawn out session of duress and novel adverse stimuli does not resemble a normal life event and its biological and psychic consequences would be different and perhaps harmful.

Interesting book is The Biology of Animal Stress: Basic Principles and Implications for Animal Welfare by G.Moberg
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by dbh »

I personally do not believe that holding a snake by the tail and letting it hang is a technique that should be used. Many other ways to handle a snake that are much safer for the snake.

David
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by BillMcGighan »

To avoid one extreme ideology or the other I have to say, I've never seen any snakes injured by bagging for a day or so at any NAFHA outings.

Bagging itself is not the issue, it's what is done afterword. If the animal is contained for a short span, avoiding trauma and extreme temps, hydrated properly, there is not much problem.

Domestically, I've watched commercial collectors take better care than is even necessary (for obvious reasons), and I've watched science researchers take only good care of specimens (for obvious reasons), even those destined to be sacrificed.

I must admit that when the “getting the pic” becomes more important than the animal’s welfare, it’s wrong, but, it seems like the original post, if accurate, is referring to the exception of handlers and, if true, they need their butts kicked. Sounds like 90% of herpers are being condemned for irresponsible 10%, again.

I have to respectfully take exception to tailing a snake necessarily being bad. Often a fast moving racer type is best subdued quickly by tailing and swinging it between your legs asquickly as possible, catching it gently, then hand grasping it in multipoint body hold.
I have seen a spinning water snake twist off the tip of its own tail by a person who didn’t know what they were doing.

As far as stress, these animals hone their survival skills on stress, dealing with predators, almost daily, at every turn in their lives.
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by cbernz »

dbh wrote:I personally do not believe that holding a snake by the tail and letting it hang is a technique that should be used. Many other ways to handle a snake that are much safer for the snake.

David
I hate holding snakes by the tail. I often get the disturbing sensation of the snake's vertebrae dislocating (not sure if that is what actually happens, but it's what it feels like and it is unpleasant). With the exception of tiny, placid snakes, I always grab for midbody and/or neck area. If it's a large, feisty snake, and I only get a hold of the tail, I usually let it go.

As for bagging, I agree with many here that it's not a big deal in and of itself, provided the animal is kept comfortable and released where found.
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by Kelly Mc »

As far as stress, these animals hone their survival skills on stress, dealing with predators, almost daily, at every turn in their lives.[/quote]


There seems to be alot of vaguarity on this, that actually has been researched. One poster creating silly hyperboles of "walking through the forest would slightly decrease the fitness of specimens noticing you" Another posted a bunch of 'Ok, But What Ifs.. 'This' Long and 'That' Long etc etc"

The above comments illustrate the extent of speculation and personal belief systems about dynamics that have actually been researched quite extensively, and the body of knowledge of which serves as the basis building blocks for procedure in zoo culture, veterinary care, and protocols of conduct in almost all wild animal work.

This is where zoological interdisciplinary connect and study would come in useful rather than by playing it by ear.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by Kelly Mc »

I agree holding a snake prone/unsupported is not good.

Partly to blame could be examples of people being filmed and photographed doing it constantly, mostly with venomous and for no other authentic purpose than to pretty much say "Hey look Im Touching It."


There was a pic I saw once of a Mamba being tailed, the poster explaining his technique for exhausting it get a better photo.

The disconnect, is confounding.
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by dbh »

Bill,

In reference to: "I have to respectfully take exception to tailing a snake necessarily being bad. Often a fast moving racer type is best subdued quickly by tailing and swinging it between your legs as quickly as possible, catching it gently, then hand grasping it in multipoint body hold.
I have seen a spinning water snake twist off the tip of its own tail by a person who didn’t know what they were doing.".

I have no problem with the capture technique described above. I have a problem with grasping a snake posterior to the cloaca (the tail) and holding it aloft with no support. I have no problem with grabbing a big Nerodia by the tail and slowing it down, just don't lift it and let it hang unsupported.

David
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by Kelly Mc »

I broke my clavicle and its affecting my hand eye relationship it seems :lol: (repeated typos above last post etc)


It would be fair to note though, how rarely some people who are very established photographers, and post about trips, presenting photos and text where their behaviors are never called into question. There are many others like the Mamba swinger, dragging, clutching, and hassling - esp cobras into hooding. One complained how hard it was to get the King to hood after its ordeal. But he finally made it happen.

So if we are to jump on the new person with the water snake we should follow same standard with others who water print their Great Works.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by Kelly Mc »

I might add that the Kings experience was finished, before or after reluctantly hooding, I dont know, by being clutched around its throat and photographed.

There were no comments on behalf of the vanquished King.
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by chris_mcmartin »

Some of the most widely-shared photographs of "nature" were made by severely manipulating the animals in question (e.g. with the aid of strings etc.).

http://heejennwei.blogspot.com/2013/08/ ... nesia.html


Even worse, award-wining photographers succumb to the Photoshop siren:

http://gizmodo.com/5837537/swedish-natu ... ping-fraud

I therefore don't feel so bad when I get a "less-than-perfect" shot because my subjects are, for the most part, in situ; sometimes it makes the image even more appealing knowing it wasn't posed.


That being said, tastefully-done posed shots are possible without necessarily overly stressing the animal.

There's been discussion of exactly how stressful some of us herpers' photo sessions might be. Several projects have examined cortisol (stress hormone) levels in snakes' bloodstreams after such handling. I don't have the papers or results handy, but suffice it to say that extended handling prolongs the presence of cortisol, and repeated/prolonged exposure can shorten an organism's life (humans included).
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by dbh »

I do not like to criticize and only meant for my comments to be a little informative.
I certainly don't want to squelch the enthusiasm of any newcomers.
I also never meant to derail the thread.

David
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by Kelly Mc »

dbh wrote:I do not like to criticize and only meant for my comments to be a little informative.
I certainly don't want to squelch the enthusiasm of any newcomers.
I also never meant to derail the thread.

David

I dont think you did anything out of pocket. IMO.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by Kelly Mc »

I question the hypothetical cost/benefit link of Conservation and By Any Means Get An Excellent Photo.

A huge focus of photo projects it appears to me - is to present them in formats for other herpers to see.

If the general public were fully disclosed on a case of dubious treatment and welfare of an animal in a photo series or other appeal that included photographs, how inclined would they be to trust that appeal?

It is not rational and is foundationally weak, and if tested would prove out to have an adverse effect on the perceptions of the public we are claiming to target for interest in conservation issues.

This is what is meant by Intelligent People. It doesnt matter what level of education a person has, most people learn very early the elementals of Right, Wrong, Fair, Unfair, and BS.

Most people who are curious, and caring about the natural world, are intelligent in a way that others are not, regardless of IQ.
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by Kfen »

I meant to start a post about this a long time ago and planned on writing a long and more eloquent rant than what I will do here. I am not going to speak much about bagging or not, but things you should/should not do IF you bag.

Bring the animal back to its point of capture. Don't be lazy and release it somewhere else, even if it looks like suitable habitat, or if you know there are others of said species there. There are many reasons including home range, site fidelity and knowledge, genetic issues, and disease transmission. At best you have threatened that individuals life, at worst you have risked entire populations. Better to err on the side of caution.

SANITIZE all holding containers. Again, disease transmission is the risk here.

Keep all animals in appropriate environmental conditions for that species. Think temperature, humidity, cleanliness. When you bag something up, that animals welfare is your responsibility.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by Kelly Mc »

Kfen yes Agreed :thumb: it is not the bag or the sterilite box itself but the inability to thermoregulate, seek damper strata, drink.

Places to avoid placing holding containers and bags would be vehicle floorboard, and other temp spikey places that we might ordinarily place other objects, tool boxes, jackets.

It may seem obvious but I know of many snakes that have been placed on the floorboard of cars especially.

They may not die. But perhaps experience the worse hours of their lives.

If one is going to be transporting snakes regularly, custom boxes built for safety, ergonomics and purpose, as well as species specific considerations of regularly targeted or encountered species that one relocates, could be great projects for an afternoon of building in the garage.

These boxes may be for the bags themselves for added stability and thermal protection. They may also be made to aid directional, grabless, liftless transfer.

I have rigged boxes myself for various purposes, moving large and nervous new imports, as well as to enable myself to work alone with potentially dangerous, or extremely fast taxa.
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck »

BillMcGighan wrote:To avoid one extreme ideology or the other I have to say, I've never seen any snakes injured by bagging for a day or so at any NAFHA outings.
Well, like I wrote in the Borneo thread, unfortunately, I have. Some specimens/species seem more prone to stress(?) and may die.
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck »

Kelly, more often than not, I agree with you on this forum (and appreciate your way with words). From my scientific background, yet, bagging single snakes every now and then remains trivial in terms of conservation. The same has been quite aptly advocated for collecting in different threads. More provocatively, I think herping in e.g. SE Asia is currently so low-key that even if all herpers would collect all snakes they find, there would be a trivial impact. Habitat conservation!

Having said that, I wrote in the Borneo thread already that I dislike the bagging practice because of animal welfare and my laziness towards having to return animals to their home afterwards.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by Kelly Mc »

Yes I think it hasn't been made terribly clear that its not the bag, or the one person, or the one, few, or several snakes, and not about being bad guy or overly sensitive guy, but about taking fresh looks at some things that have become custom or cannonized, and exploring information and changing concerns.

Do you know what I mean?
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by Kelly Mc »

Jeroen thank you for talking and sharing with me,..

Not that its your view, but i question how collective awareness of welfare hygiene, as a group and as individual practitioners can negatively impact conservation efforts.

Perhaps in a build of factors, being observant with one specimen can affect more than we realize, in a world where a single action can be viewed and absorbed by many, in an instant.

How are things going for conservation as is, any way? How can it hurt to be more observant about anything?
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by yuesam »

After scanning this post, it seems most of you believe you can't get good photos without bagging snakes. I must emphasize that this is NOT true. I never had to bag because I've gotten publishable photos by just spending less than 5 minutes 'posing' the snake. And that doesn't mean prodding it with sticks.... I gently maneuver it to curl up for the few seconds that are enough for a photo. It's all about choosing the right angle, flash lighting, and composition, and nothing to do with bagging snakes. Not advertising, but here are some examples: https://www.flickr.com/photos/127579965@N06/ all taken within minutes of finding the snake, and then released back.
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krismunk
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by krismunk »

Thanks for the lovely examples, Sam :)

I doubt anyone here would question that you can get good photos of snakes without bagging or prolonged stressing, it's just that this might not always be as easy and (probably more significantly) the two goals of maximizing output of prime herping time and quality of photography might sometimes be perceived at odds :roll:

... and then I'd like to reiterate the significance of this little jewel:
hellihooks wrote:IMO... what's most important is that folks consider these types of things BEFORE they hit the field, so they can make better judgements when presented with decisions while IN the field.
Why?

Because how we act in the field comes down to two separate issues:

#1: What our standards of behaviour are as we would state them to others.

#2: To what degree we actually live up to these standards.

Our stand in relation to #1 may be based on values, priorities, knowledge, beliefs and skills. All of this we can debate, sometimes we can convince each other, sometimes we must agree to disagree. This is really the debate we're engaging in here.

Our actions in relation to #2 are not really debatable. To speak football, ”they are what they are”. They come down to our own moral character, the strength of our convictions and our awareness.

It is often said that hots, alcohol and testosterone are a bad cocktail. This refers of course to the safety of the herper. Well, there are a couple of other bad cocktails where the safety of the herper and the safety of the herp rely on the same issue of awareness. Some combination of complacency, fatigue and adrenalin lie behind every one of my stupidest field actions whether for instance endangering myself photographing by mindlessly flicking away a blade of grass in front of a viper's head with my hand rather than the hook or endangering an animal by grabbing it in a manner that could well cause injury to it.

In these situations where some sort of stresser may induce actions we can't rationally defend the degree of awareness of our actions and convictions indeed makes a difference. There is a significant difference between knowing something intellectually and knowing something with your entire body. I may apparently mindlessly flick away that blade of grass yet I will never mindlessly wander out in front of a speeding car. I may apparently mindlessly grab a lizard in a way that may injure it yet I will never do the same to my daughter.

Furthermore the lack of awareness of one's convictions strenghtens the potential for a slippery slope, particularly in groups:

It's the golden hour, snakes are out, we need to make the most of it. I guess it's alright to bag one or two for the night...
We really have to be at that other destination in time for the morning action and we really need to make the most of our road cruising tonight so we'll just keep them one day more, photograph them tomorrow morning instead...
Good, we got our photos, time to release them but oops, we need to be at the airport in an hour so we don't really have the time take them back where we found them...
Oh well, it's all within a few miles distance, and we don't really know which snakes we found where anyway...

:-(
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Jeroen Speybroeck
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck »

krismunk wrote:I doubt anyone here would question that you can get good photos of snakes without bagging or prolonged stressing
What is "a good photo"?

I like Sam's collection (a lot! any album with Rhacophorus nigropalmatus gets me salivating), but some friends of mine would call the pose of some of his shots artificial. Please don't take this personal, Sam, it's just that the" semi-coiled snake with rostral section hidden under posterior coils"-type of shots are presented with clear examples in your shots, and that's what several friends of mine would consider too obviously staged, thus unsatisfactory to them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still in the "don't (or hardly) bag" team (see above), but I just felt like pointing out that certain types of shots (but also depends on the species!) are not as swiftly achieved. Personally, I find it much easier not to bag, because I'm relatively easily pleased with my mediocre shots. This may differ for the more artsy photographer. Potentially anticipating Kelly's sentiments, however, the nature of the photographer is irrelevant to the snake in question.
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by crocdoc »

I was reading through this thread, stumbled upon this and just had to take a screen shot.

Think I've got a new meme, here!

Image

Just sayin...

(I'm busting your balls, kid. Don't take it to heart, but you have to admit it IS funny)
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chris_mcmartin
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by chris_mcmartin »

Crocdoc, that isn't ironic, because the avatar does not constitute a "good shot." :lol:


Just more good-natured ribbing...many of us have those "hero shots" holding impressive herps.
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by yuesam »

Thanks Jeroen. No offense taken. Each photographer has his/her own taste :)
chris_mcmartin wrote:Crocdoc, that isn't ironic, because the avatar does not constitute a "good shot." :lol:
haha
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by hellihooks »

krismunk wrote:
... and then I'd like to reiterate the significance of this little jewel:
hellihooks wrote:IMO... what's most important is that folks consider these types of things BEFORE they hit the field, so they can make better judgements when presented with decisions while IN the field.
Why?

Because how we act in the field comes down to two separate issues:

#1: What our standards of behaviour are as we would state them to others.

#2: To what degree we actually live up to these standards.

Our stand in relation to #1 may be based on values, priorities, knowledge, beliefs and skills. All of this we can debate, sometimes we can convince each other, sometimes we must agree to disagree. This is really the debate we're engaging in here.

Our actions in relation to #2 are not really debatable. To speak football, ”they are what they are”. They come down to our own moral character, the strength of our convictions and our awareness.
:-(
Exactly right. but folks should know where they stand before they hit the field, so they don't have to figure it out, while standing in the field, with herp in hand, or bush. As for 'personal integrity'... it's how you herp when alone, that counts, not how you herp when with others. :thumb: jim
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krismunk
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by krismunk »

hellihooks wrote:Exactly right. but folks should know where they stand before they hit the field, so they don't have to figure it out, while standing in the field, with herp in hand, or bush.
Hence the following paragraphs in the above reply which expand on precisely why knowing - and knowing well - in advance is important.
hellihooks wrote:As for 'personal integrity'... it's how you herp when alone, that counts, not how you herp when with others.
While what we do when no one else is looking may be a good measure of personal integrity we are certainly not exempt from responsibility simply because we act as part of a group.
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by hellihooks »

My bad... I misinterpreted your 'Why' And I agree... when in a group... standards should be set beforehand, and followed. :thumb:
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crocdoc
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by crocdoc »

chris_mcmartin wrote:Crocdoc, that isn't ironic, because the avatar does not constitute a "good shot."
Well, you got me there. Haha.

chris_mcmartin wrote:Just more good-natured ribbing...many of us have those "hero shots" holding impressive herps.
You got me on it not constituting a 'good shot'. I'm going to call you on it not being an 'impressive' herp.

Touche :)

BTW, what you call 'hero shots' are usually called 'wanker shots' here in Australia, even by the people posting them. Self-effacing humour - we know we don't look like heroes when we post those shots.

For what it's worth, on the topic of this thread, I admit that when I was the same age as FloridaSerpent I was all about catching reptiles and then photographing them (although my shots never had my face or hands in them intentionally, as I would try to get a 'naturalistic' shot). Now I shoot almost entirely in situ. All of my lizard shots are in situ, but I'll sometimes hook a snake and put it under my hat to coil up and calm down for a photograph, only if it is stretched out and on the move when I find it so that an in situ shot is not possible.

(on yet another note, I tried to make a bet with a regular contributor to this forum that you'd be the first person to respond to my post, with a snide remark. He wouldn't take the bet because he agreed with me. Therefore I'd like to say 'thanks for the $5' to you, but sadly I can't)
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by Ribbit »

crocdoc wrote:BTW, what you call 'hero shots' are usually called 'wanker shots' here in Australia, even by the people posting them. Self-effacing humour - we know we don't look like heroes when we post those shots.
Ha! Almost spat out my drink there.

John

P.S. The lizard on my head was not in situ.
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by chris_mcmartin »

crocdoc wrote:You got me on it not constituting a 'good shot'. I'm going to call you on it not being an 'impressive' herp.

Touche :)
Well, "impressive" would be subjective and I didn't want to touch that one. I'm enamored of many herps others may consider run-of-the-mill, but I didn't look too closely at the particular snake in question.

BTW, what you call 'hero shots' are usually called 'wanker shots' here in Australia, even by the people posting them. Self-effacing humour - we know we don't look like heroes when we post those shots.
Hence my quotes, which in this case indicated facetiousness...

Image


(on yet another note, I tried to make a bet with a regular contributor to this forum that you'd be the first person to respond to my post, with a snide remark. He wouldn't take the bet because he agreed with me. Therefore I'd like to say 'thanks for the $5' to you, but sadly I can't)
I'd make a bet of my own, that the other contributor is rather irregular himself! :P
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by hellihooks »

I went on a snide hunt once... oh wait... it was snipe. they suck...got skunked all 3 times I tried... :? :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by chris_mcmartin »

hellihooks wrote:I went on a snide hunt once... oh wait... it was snipe. they suck...got skunked all 3 times I tried... :? :lol: :lol: :lol:
It's a joke-within-a-joke.

Edited so as not to ruin said joke.
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by crocdoc »

chris_mcmartin wrote:Hence my quotes, which in this case indicated facetiousness...
Um...yeah...I realise that. I was simply pointing out that here we don't even pretend it's remotely heroic. It's just a wanker shot.
chris_mcmartin wrote:Well, "impressive" would be subjective and I didn't want to touch that one.
One could say the same about whether or not it constituted a 'good' shot, as that's also subjective. You should just concede my 'touche'. :)

Ribbit wrote:P.S. The lizard on my head was not in situ.
I have an in situ shot of a lizard on my head (taken by a mate of mine). We were setting up camp on Cape York, at night, when I felt something jump onto my foot, run up my leg and back and then end up on my head. This gecko must have seen my headlamp and went up there to catch insects. That was a first for me.

Image
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by Ribbit »

Sweet! My other lizard-on-head shot was not really in situ, but not posed either. I was taking photos of a frilly on the ground when it decided to climb up the nearest tree, er, tree-like object.

Image

John
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crocdoc
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by crocdoc »

Nice! I have had one run up my leg, but didn't manage a shot. Your head shot tops that. Nice frilly, too!
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by hellihooks »

Most 'Wankerish' shot I think I've ever taken... cept for possibly the one with a granite swift biting and hanging from my earlobe, like a purple and turquoise earring. And before you ask what the 'earring fetish' is about... I sport no tattoos or piercings anywhere on my body (it's a temple doncha know :lol: ) so perhaps that's why I find the thought of me having earrings so funny... :crazyeyes:
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by hellihooks »

getting back on track... who remembers very similar discussions from years ago... some can still be looked up... some are from before the crash, so I've had to go to my personal archives (how scary is THAT :shock: ) rather than retyping everything, I find I'm still exactly in agreement with what I said years ago, so will just cut/paste my positions... 8-)

I actually didn't get to finish what I wanted to say, in reply to JDM yesterday (had to go to work) The focus in these discussions seem to gravitate towards making 'value judgments' on certain behaviors... handling, collecting, posing, ect...with the term 'ethical' synonymous with 'right', with the goal being deciding which behaviors are justifiable.

Problem is... what's 'right' for one person, seems wrong to another, because we hold different perspectives, motivations and priorities. Rather than argue the merits of given behaviors, I would suggest that the goal of 'Ethical Guidelines' should be to get people to examine WHY they think things are either right or wrong, by an ongoing process of self-examination.

Since 'philosophical' terms seem to do nothing but make folks want to 'tune out'... I thought I might try this with some psychological terms that might be more accessible, regarding self-actualization and personal growth. Those terms are 'Id' (basic wants and desires) 'Ego' (constraints on the Id that allow people to function in society) Super-Ego (development of etiquette that allows us to function 'well') and the Ideal-ego (placing 'Ideals' above all other motivations)It is exactly when these motivations collide, that we need 'ethics'.

By way of example, yesterday I flipped a juvie Skiltons Skink. I wanted to catch it, (Id) because I really like these skinks, with their bright blue tails, their quickness and smooth scalation, ect. But they drop their tails SO readily, and the possibility of that happening was not worth me getting to hold it and trying to get a bunch of 'great shots' of it, for either data collection (Ego) or the 'kudos' I might get for getting 'great shots' of a hard to photograph herp.(Super-ego)So I went for the 'ideal' of an insitu shot (as flipped. actually... )... and got ONE shot, before the skink vanished.... I returned the Skink's 'home' to it's original sealed condition, and am satisfied on all counts that I behaved as 'ethically' as possible in this situation, and consider it a great herping encounter...
Image

Depending on what your overarching motivations for being in the field, on any given day, are (observation, data, photos, ect) and the always different circumstances of each encounter, one must always make these motivational cost/benefit analyses on the spot, and it's much easier to do when one has given it some thought beforehand. THAT'S the goal of 'Ethics'... to get people to look at themselves...before they hit the field... not to argue endlessly over what's 'right' or 'wrong'... :beer: jim
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by Kelly Mc »

I don't know if we have to get very fancy. In every work effort there is good work and sloppy work. Clean transfers and fail transfers. Smooth technique and rough technique. Medical, military, mechanical, all work strives for refinement of method. If work is centered around living animals there are basic tenets that will focus on the reality of life forms and the fact that they live.

Although there are always heavy handed exceptions, ranch work. Dog work, bird work, marine work, bee work all include the livingness of the "objects" that are being worked with. Even if it is just to foster an effective profit result, the living product having better value undamaged.

Snakes are not inanimate objects, though they can be stored and manipulated almost in simile of such.
W
Therein is the factor. It is easy to spend less effort when one doesn't think its worth it, and the results of a better picture or more of them is the only goal.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Bagging snakes for photos?

Post by Kelly Mc »

I like the Skink story very much.

I like the way you work it out there. Its what I thought herping with photo documentation was, before I found out there was a whole other more cosmetic genre.

The thing is though, there is another style, here at FHF that I don't see as the kudos style, that's been extremely useful for studying morphology. Truly expansive in opening that dimension of macro insight. And I don't think the best of these, knock animals out of trees or mishandle them
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