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 Post subject: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 15th, 2014, 10:13 pm 
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Joined: April 7th, 2012, 7:53 pm
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Location: Riverside, Ca
I've always heard of more experienced herpers talking about boardlines having to be seasoned. I understand that it takes time for snakes to start using AC, but how long does this usually take? A friend of mine and myself have laid out approximately 300 boards this summer. Should I even bother checking them next spring? Will it disrupt this "seasoning" process that is taking place? Can I just sprinkle some paprika and garlic powder on these boards to get them going faster? Also, sorry if this topic has already been talked about on another thread. I'll delete this post if I'm just a dingbat and haven't looked far enough down the rabbit hole.


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 15th, 2014, 10:35 pm 

Joined: September 17th, 2014, 3:07 pm
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Location: Apple valley,ca
I have the same questions, i just layed out some boards a couple weeks ago hoping it will produce something in spring


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 16th, 2014, 4:42 am 
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Joined: June 8th, 2010, 11:13 pm
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Location: Greater Houston TX Area
I can't speak for the length of time it takes for a board to produce in California from the time it's placed, but here in the Midwest I've found a snake under board I set out just 3 days prior.

Also, for my boards I try to remove as much grass and other material from underneath them as practical. I weedeat the grass and then sprinkle birdseed on the ground under the board to help attract rodents. They generally take care of the rest of the vegetation.


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 16th, 2014, 7:37 am 
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Joined: April 7th, 2012, 7:53 pm
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Location: Riverside, Ca
chris_mcmartin wrote:
I can't speak for the length of time it takes for a board to produce in California from the time it's placed, but here in the Midwest I've found a snake under board I set out just 3 days prior.

Also, for my boards I try to remove as much grass and other material from underneath them as practical. I weedeat the grass and then sprinkle birdseed on the ground under the board to help attract rodents. They generally take care of the rest of the vegetation.


Chris, thanks for the insight! I really like the idea of using bird seed to attract rodents.
-Nick


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 16th, 2014, 9:49 am 
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Joined: October 18th, 2010, 7:55 pm
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Location: San Diego, CA
Hi Nick,

You should definitely check your recently placed boards this winter and spring.

If a board is placed in a good spot, you might find something under it within a short time. If you replace the boards properly every time you lift them, then they should continue to produce better and better with each passing season, until they begin to fall apart.

Good luck!

Jeff


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 16th, 2014, 1:46 pm 
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Joined: June 10th, 2010, 3:28 pm
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Dare I ask whether you and your friend restrained yourselves to placing your 300(!) boards only on property you own or have permission to treat thus? I certainly hope that's the case!

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 16th, 2014, 3:01 pm 
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Location: Riverside, Ca
gbin wrote:
Dare I ask whether you and your friend restrained yourselves to placing your 300(!) boards only on property you own or have permission to treat thus? I certainly hope that's the case!

Gerry


Most of the boards have been placed on private property with permission from the owners. Other areas are harder to reach. I do utility work for a living and have acquired keys to some gates here and there. Most of the lines are near service roads and aren't more than 15-20 boards each. I'm trying not to put too many boards in one place in an attempt to be a little more inconspicuous.


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 16th, 2014, 3:02 pm 
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Location: Riverside, Ca
SurfinHerp wrote:
Hi Nick,

You should definitely check your recently placed boards this winter and spring.

If a board is placed in a good spot, you might find something under it within a short time. If you replace the boards properly every time you lift them, then they should continue to produce better and better with each passing season, until they begin to fall apart.

Good luck!

Jeff



Thanks Jeff! Hopefully I can make it down to SD this coming season and hit the field with you. Our encounter in Borrego was too short!


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 16th, 2014, 5:50 pm 
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shredsteban wrote:
Most of the boards have been placed on private property with permission from the owners. Other areas are harder to reach. I do utility work for a living and have acquired keys to some gates here and there. Most of the lines are near service roads and aren't more than 15-20 boards each. I'm trying not to put too many boards in one place in an attempt to be a little more inconspicuous.

It's not entirely clear, but it sounds very much as if some/many/most of the boards were placed on property you do not own and where you do not have permission to act thus. Be it conspicuous or inconspicuous, that means it's illegal dumping. If you did it without permission on property to which you had special access through your employer and your employer doesn't actually own the land, I think your employer would also almost certainly consider it a fireable offense; in that case your employer might also be deemed liable by the landowner for your abuse of privilege, after all.

You'll find some here who will be just fine with such misbehavior, I'm sure, but I must say that for my part I disapprove strongly, I would (will) turn you in to the authorities given an opportunity to do so, and I advise everyone here who is willing to listen to reason not to offer you any further assistance in breaking the law. And, of course, in giving the herp community a bad name with other outdoor enthusiasts as well as the authorities - who do indeed monitor these message boards, by the way.

Don't think that internet anonymity can protect you from the authorities, either. Between what you've written in this thread and in your profile, it took me only a fraction of a minute to learn that your first name is Nick, you're 26 years old (assuming you built your profile when you joined FHF in 2012, you reside in Riverside, CA and you're a utility worker who has been provided keys to various areas with restricted access. Doubtless more information about you could be gleaned from your other posts here. And the authorities obviously don't have to limit themselves to what's readily available here, either, given your apparent admission of wrongdoing.

I don't mean to pick on you, Nick, and I assure you I have nothing against you personally. I do mean to warn you and anyone considering doing as you have done - strongly - that what you did is blatantly unethical and illegal, and as such could have serious repercussions for you. It also, as I said, makes our whole community look bad. I suggest you and your friend go back promptly to pick up any boards you placed on property where you had no right to place them. Do the right thing and I'll then be as big a fan as I now am a critic.

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 16th, 2014, 8:12 pm 
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Location: Riverside, Ca
gbin wrote:
shredsteban wrote:
Most of the boards have been placed on private property with permission from the owners. Other areas are harder to reach. I do utility work for a living and have acquired keys to some gates here and there. Most of the lines are near service roads and aren't more than 15-20 boards each. I'm trying not to put too many boards in one place in an attempt to be a little more inconspicuous.

It's not entirely clear, but it sounds very much as if some/many/most of the boards were placed on property you do not own and where you do not have permission to act thus. Be it conspicuous or inconspicuous, that means it's illegal dumping. If you did it without permission on property to which you had special access through your employer and your employer doesn't actually own the land, I think your employer would also almost certainly consider it a fireable offense; in that case your employer might also be deemed liable by the landowner for your abuse of privilege, after all.

You'll find some here who will be just fine with such misbehavior, I'm sure, but I must say that for my part I disapprove strongly, I would (will) turn you in to the authorities given an opportunity to do so, and I advise everyone here who is willing to listen to reason not to offer you any further assistance in breaking the law. And, of course, in giving the herp community a bad name with other outdoor enthusiasts as well as the authorities - who do indeed monitor these message boards, by the way.

Don't think that internet anonymity can protect you from the authorities, either. Between what you've written in this thread and in your profile, it took me only a fraction of a minute to learn that your first name is Nick, you're 26 years old (assuming you built your profile when you joined FHF in 2012, you reside in Riverside, CA and you're a utility worker who has been provided keys to various areas with restricted access. Doubtless more information about you could be gleaned from your other posts here. And the authorities obviously don't have to limit themselves to what's readily available here, either, given your apparent admission of wrongdoing.

I don't mean to pick on you, Nick, and I assure you I have nothing against you personally. I do mean to warn you and anyone considering doing as you have done - strongly - that what you did is blatantly unethical and illegal, and as such could have serious repercussions for you. It also, as I said, makes our whole community look bad. I suggest you and your friend go back promptly to pick up any boards you placed on property where you had no right to place them. Do the right thing and I'll then be as big a fan as I now am a critic.

Gerry


Well, thanks for scaring the shit out of me. I've never been educated on where boardlines can and cannot be placed. (This may be my fault for not researching enough.) I understand, that statement sounds ridiculous, because it should be assumed that all land that is not owned by the person laying new boards would be off limits for a boardline. But not once have I been guided in a black and white fashion of where laying boards is acceptable, or frowned upon, by the herping community. Also, is it commonly accepted in this community that field herpers are only laying AC on their private property? Because I've never received that notion. Not to say that I am an advocate for comitting the lesser of two evils, but plywood breaks down and becomes part of the environment. It isn't a damaging material. It facilitates an opportunity to observe species that may be common, rare or common, yet secretive. But it is still considered dumping. Is there a gray area? Because most amateur/unpaid non professional field herpers do not own land and probably cannot get a special permit to lay AC at various testing sites in core areas for target species. Should I leave the task of documenting target species up to DFW?

I'm not attacking your arguments Gerry, I'm only trying to understand the impact of what I've done, for my own sake. I do want to find snakes and enter them into the database. I do want to attain county records. I do want to help in habitat protection and aid in furthering the survival of all species. But I also want to do these things ethically without tarnishing the reputation of the herping community and having a run in with the law. How does one accomplish this and how can I herp ethically? I will remove all boards layed out by me on land that I do not own. But I feel it's important to note that 80% of the AC was redistributed from existing trash piles, and only the plywood was taken and used.


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 16th, 2014, 11:08 pm 
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Joined: June 7th, 2010, 7:50 am
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Location: Huntington Beach, CA
If all the CA boardlines I've run across were setup by the owners of the property, CA herpers must be rich!

I understand about the legality, but come on. I'll bet 99% of herpers on here have setup lines on property other than their own and without permission. They may not admit it, but that doesnt make it any less true.

I'm guessing Nick didn't actually take these boards in, he found them there and repositioned them to better suit his needs. Is that illegal?


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 17th, 2014, 6:52 am 
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Don't get me wrong, Nick, I think it's great that you want your hobby to serve a higher purpose than merely your own entertainment. But that's no excuse for unethical and illegal behavior. (Nor will it save you from unemployment or legal prosecution.) Indeed, I would hope that most in NAFHA - and certainly its officers - would strongly discourage illegal dumping done in order to establish board lines, no matter how common the practice might or might not be among CA herpers or elsewhere. They want data collected, to be sure, but not at the expense of harming the habitat or giving the herp community an even worse name with the public and authorities than it already has. Improving relations with these folks is actually part of the point. And even if the data set itself is the much larger part of the point - heck, even if it were the whole point by itself - let's think for a moment: What is the purpose of the data, in turn? To aid in authorities' efforts to properly monitor and manage wild herps. Is that purpose going to be served if the authorities come to believe however much of the data was obtained by illegal means? By making use of the data set they'd be giving their tacit approval to such misbehavior, after all. No, even if they really want the data, they'd feel that is an unacceptable price to pay for it. They'd be joining you in unethical behavior by turning a blind eye as to how the data were collected, and they won't do that.

When one reads scientific papers one often sees a statement therein indicating that the work was done with the permission of such-and-such authorities. Even when that statement isn't included in the papers themselves, the authors are generally required to make it to the journal editors at the time of submission. They wouldn't dream of trying to substitute "No, we didn't have permission for our work. But we think the data are really worthwhile, and it's not like we really hurt anything. And besides, everyone is doing it!" I often see the herp database offered as a shining example of citizen science. Do the folks contributing to it really want it to be such, or not?

There might not but certainly can indeed be harmful ramifications for the habitat, too. Illegal dumps attract more than just herpers; they attract illegal dumping. A bunch of boards or tin by themselves are just an eyesore to most people (and a bit of welcome but unnecessary habitat to herps and other small creatures), it's true. But when others see such, it encourages them to show equal disrespect for the environment, at least at that particular site. Why not? So far as they're concerned it's trashed already. What difference does it make if they add to it a few beer bottles, an old television, a mattress, some mostly empty paint cans...? Eventually you have a fully fledged dump, totally unregulated, unmonitored and containing a mix of harmless and toxic waste; if it becomes popular enough, at some point you'll even attract a sign foolishly declaring "NO DUMPING." Every time you see such a place - and we all have seen plenty of them, if we've spent much time afield - remember that it's a virtual certainty that it didn't start with someone coming by with a dump truck full of trash. More likely they just unloaded a few unwanted things from their car trunk or the back of their pickup truck, thinking all the while "What's the harm of my dumping a few things here?".

I strongly urge you to revise your behavior rather than rationalize it, Nick, for your sake, for that of the database you want to contribute to, for that of the community you represent whether or not such is your intent, and for the herps and habitats we all love. Take a higher road to where you want to go, no matter how many people you might see or hear urging you to join them on a lower road. Putting out trash doesn't make finding herps possible, it just makes finding herps easier. I say put in the effort, instead, and I'm not by any means alone even if many other ethical, legal herpers are reluctant to speak up against what unfortunately appears to be a misbehaving majority.

If any NAFHA officers are following this thread, Nick and others might benefit from them chiming in with some official perspective. (I know few if any monitoring authorities will do so, but they'd be quite welcome as well.)

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 17th, 2014, 7:17 am 
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Nick, I almost forgot, re: your PM to me, I was going to PM this reply to you but decided it would best be placed here, too...

******************

I'm not offended at all, Nick, and I appreciate your taking my criticism rationally rather than emotionally as well.

It's unfortunately true that lots of herpers, apparently especially in CA, lay out board lines by illegal dumping. It's unfortunately true this encourages them to think that it's acceptable behavior, too. "Acceptable" is an individual moral decision equating to "what can I rationalize away, or otherwise live with?", though, and the behavior remains unethical and illegal regardless of how many people indulge in it. (I was once a security guard in a retail setting, and you'd be amazed how many of the shoplifters I caught tried to excuse what they'd done by protesting that "Everybody steals!") And it does bring harm to our community even where it manages to avoid bringing harm to the herps and habitats themselves.

Virtually no one starts out in our hobby with perfect behavior. I never laid trash out, but as a youth I regularly ripped through logs and stumps and didn't pay nearly enough attention to whether I placed rocks back just so. The animals lost a bit of habitat thereby, but the main harm I did was of course to make herpers look bad by my slob hunting. Fortunately I learn quickly, and after my first non-herping but also outdoor-loving friend pointed out the wake of destruction I was leaving behind I immediately and profoundly changed my behavior. Now many more years later than I care to own up to I'm still looking for ways to improve my behavior, and I will continue to do so as long as I continue to go afield. It's not the mistakes we make that determine what kind of people we are, but the way we deal with them once we're aware of them.

I'd rather we talked about this stuff on the message board, though I'm happy to have private discourse with you in general. Always nice to meet a new person, potentially a new friend! It sounds a bit harsh to my ear to say I think you "must be made an example of," but there are plenty of people at FHF who post all the time about laying board lines and finding herps thereby and precious few who urge them to be careful to do so ethically and legally, so I think the discourse could be instructive to many others here.

Regards,

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 17th, 2014, 7:57 am 
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You can find a snake under a board 2 minutes after you lay it out, but most items of cover take 3 years to reach their full potential. My recommendation is to leave them alone for 2 solid years before checking them, period.. The longer you let them sit without checking them at all the better they will be during the glory years of the AC. Years 3 through 10 +

My best advice.
1. Ignore Gerry.
2. Patience (most herpers in their first 10 years of herping have a hard time with this part and want to over do it, because its an exciting hobby. )
3. Wait 2 years after placing them, unless you are doing survey work and they need to be checked in advance. You may
find something 2 months after you lay it out, but you will likely be making the AC less productive later in its life. Let it ride.
4. When checking AC ALWAYS ALWAYS replace to the EXACT location it was before, and ALWAYS remove any vegetation that gets shoved under the AC when lifting.. Take your time in the replacement process..
5. Don't check AC more often than 1 once a month, unless your study requires it. (If you want to find pairs, triples, 6 plus herps under it at the same time).
6. Ignore Gerry.



Patience is a virtue, when it comes to AC..

Also always gain permission before placing AC.

Fundad


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 17th, 2014, 8:47 am 

Joined: September 17th, 2014, 3:07 pm
Posts: 22
Location: Apple valley,ca
Fundad wrote:
You can find a snake under a board 2 minutes after you lay it out, but most items of cover take 3 years to reach their full potential. My recommendation is to leave them alone for 2 solid years before checking them, period.. The longer you let them sit without checking them at all the better they will be during the glory years of the AC. Years 3 through 10 +

My best advice.
1. Ignore Gerry.
2. Patience (most herpers in their first 10 years of herping have a hard time with this part and want to over do it, because its an exciting hobby. )
3. Wait 2 years after placing them, unless you are doing survey work and they need to be checked in advance. You may
find something 2 months after you lay it out, but you will likely be making the AC less productive later in its life. Let it ride.
4. When checking AC ALWAYS ALWAYS replace to the EXACT location it was before, and ALWAYS remove any vegetation that gets shoved under the AC when lifting.. Take your time in the replacement process..
5. Don't check AC more often than 1 once a month, unless your study requires it. (If you want to find pairs, triples, 6 plus herps under it at the same time).
6. Ignore Gerry.



Patience is a virtue, when it comes to AC..

Also always gain permission before placing AC.

Fundad

Thats some good advice,I'm hoping we get these monsoons so we have a good flipping season.


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 17th, 2014, 8:58 am 
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Fundad wrote:
You can find a snake under a board 2 minutes after you lay it out, but most items of cover take 3 years to reach their full potential. My recommendation is to leave them alone for 2 solid years before checking them, period.. The longer you let them sit without checking them at all the better they will be during the glory years of the AC. Years 3 through 10 +

My best advice.
1. Ignore Gerry.
6. Ignore Gerry.



Patience is a virtue, when it comes to AC..

Also always gain permission before placing AC.

Fundad



:thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 17th, 2014, 8:59 am 
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Fundad wrote:
1. Ignore Gerry.
...
6. Ignore Gerry.

I suppose I should have warned you, Nick, that my participation in this thread on a sometimes contentious topic was likely to draw the occasional comment from one or another person who has foolishly deemed me some kind of enemy. :roll: As I mentioned, lots of good people here avoid speaking up for fear of being treated so. (Nowadays Fundad is one of the most mild of the group, anyway.) That's just life in an internet forum, I guess; I still encourage people to stand up for their beliefs here.

His personal attack aside, you'll note that he too said:

Fundad wrote:
Also always gain permission before placing AC.

Gerry


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 17th, 2014, 11:26 am 
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I have found that salt and pepper are all I need to season a board, but sometimes I like to add a little salad dressing.


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 17th, 2014, 12:03 pm 
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Thanks everyone for your responses. Fundad, thanks for the advice. Gerry, thank you for the new perspective. Brian Hubbs, do you prefer iodized salt vs kosher salt? Pepper corns vs ground pepper?


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 17th, 2014, 1:20 pm 
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Sea salt with just a little ground pepper.


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 19th, 2014, 12:40 pm 
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What is the benefit of removing grass and other material from under and adjacent to the board? Is this to get the board closer to ground and get a moisture seal?


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 19th, 2014, 2:29 pm 
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I happen to agree that laying new AC around on land that isn't yours is not the ethical thing to do, even if the dump sites already exist. Become friendly with landowners (private and public). Several years ago I got permission to lay boards out and survey a piece of public land by simply sending an email to the board of alderman. The mayor himself was very interested and ultimately granted me permission. Other folks (different towns/parks, etc.) were not so receptive to the idea. It really depends on what part of the country you live in, or even counties within your state.

Be professional and enthusiastic. Have a plan and be clear and concise when you present your idea.

As far as the details, Fundad gives some good advice. The only thing I can add is to think about LAYERS when creating a boardline. Temperature gradients ;)

Hopefully Phil Peak and/or Will Bird will come by and offer some advice. They, of course, literally wrote the book on the subject.


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 20th, 2014, 4:27 am 
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Kyle from Carolina wrote:
What is the benefit of removing grass and other material from under and adjacent to the board? Is this to get the board closer to ground and get a moisture seal?


Yes, to an extent. If you don't do it yourself, the rodents eventually will. Some species may not have a preference, but others may tend to be found under the bare-earth cover items more so than grassy ones (though some secretive snakes may benefit from hiding in leaf litter under a board). A side benefit is that it makes it easier to spot the herps.

Regarding legality/ethics, I have ~170 pieces of plywood and tin on Federal land, placed with permission. I know of another project in its planning stages on nearby municipal land that is also proceeding with permission. It helps to have a sympathetic individual in the organization to listen to your pitch. In my case, the agency is required to monitor flora and fauna so it was an easy sell (I provide an annual report on observations).


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 20th, 2014, 8:09 am 
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Ask permission enough times and eventually you'll run into the 'ol liability issue - the landowner will be afraid you'll get hurt on their property and proceed to sue the pants off them.

Different types of cover offer different microenvironments throughout the year (thus providing more opportunity to encounter animals): tin heats up quickly, thick boards hold moisture better than thin boards, carpet holds lots of moisture and conforms to the landscape.

Now, if I were to flip a board that someone else illegally placed, does that make me an accessory to illegal dumping ?!? :P


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PostPosted: November 20th, 2014, 12:23 pm 

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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 20th, 2014, 6:04 pm 
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Location: Gainesville, FL
I think artificial cover flipping techniques and frequencies vary from place to place. Here in north central Florida, the times to check are spring and fall, and I was checking them twice a week. I actually really only have a board dot, not really a line; just a solitary pile of wood. But even with that high frequency of checking I got a few double flips this year. I certainly did not wait 2-3 years before looking. Think of how many snakes would come and go in that time. Besides, who has that kind of time to wait? If I were to have waited 3 years, I would have had to placed boards the day I moved to Florida to have been able to check them this fall. I understand letting them sit a while to get settled, but 2-3 years is too long IMO. I think the best boards are the ones you can't tell how long they've been sitting there. Could be 6 months, could be 6 years. They're well seated, good contact. But transient species I don't think really care. I've heard you can toss a piece of tin out in Kentucky and there will be a copperhead underneath it in a couple of days.

As far as where to put it and the ethics of herping. I agree with Gerry and others. You should never ever put out boards on land that isn't yours without permission. I live in an apartment complex that has a garden area for residents. I signed up for a garden spot and instead of planting vegetables, I piled up wood. But even then it was only after asking management if it was okay. If I see wood or debris out and about while driving around, I'll go investigate it, but I never add to it, and I usually don't even spread it around. If somebody wants to come by and clean it up, spreading it around just makes more work for them. As a side note here, I only check trash piles near the road or that are on public land. Trespassing is frowned upon too, and because of the crazies in my state, I don't want to risk getting shot at.


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 20th, 2014, 9:14 pm 
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The facts are as Gerry laid them out:

1. Putting boards on land you don't own or have a right to access is illegal....and on two fronts. It is trespassing and it is littering. Furthermore, if you were to take an animal from one of those illegal boardlines, you might be subject to poaching-type charges, depending on the local wildlife laws and their wording.

2. Taking advantage of private land access granted through your work in this way is an invitation to getting your employer in trouble and getting yourself fired....and then facing the legal consequences mentioned above. (I suspect you signed something agreeing not to do this sort of thing when you were brought on.)

Yes, herpers trespass. Yes herpers put boardlines on land they don't have access to. Of course, in much of the west, the land is at least "public land" (Forest service, BLM, etc) so that the access is permitted, but the littering isn't. Herpers road cruise in states where it is prohibited, people pick up and pose protected animals or animals in protected areas.

But NAFHA as an organization should not encourage such behavior. I'm actually a little bothered by the fact that NAFHA officers would be encouraging you to break the law. :(

It is rather hypocritical how quickly we herpers get incensed when law enforcement agencies crack down on our behavior or pass new laws restricting our behavior and then we turn around and display a flippant disregard for the existing laws.

(BTW Nick, this is not an assault on you. It is one of the many elephants in the room of our herping world.)


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 20th, 2014, 10:51 pm 

Joined: March 30th, 2014, 12:16 pm
Posts: 566
Location: Okaloosa ca, Fla.
What captainjack said for frequency (and with agreeing with Gery). I have boards at my house, on my property. I check them about once every other week, so a little less often, and get stuff frequently. I have actually discovered some location firsts under my frequently checked boards as well. No one surveys the land for animals and no one was aware that Eastern Newts live in the swamp right behind my house until I flipped 3 efts. I have quadruple flipped southern ringnecks, and triple flipped eastern glass lizards.

Another good reason to ask permission for placing AC, is what if you have placed 70 pieces, waited a year to check them, come back 365 days after they were placed, just to find out someone cleaned them all up, and recently too by the looks of the barren spots where the vegetation is dead? This hasn't happened to me, its just hypothetical. But, not having access to extra plywood or metal besides what is around my house, I'd have to buy the AC and therefor be pretty darn upset if I lost 70 sheets of $5 or however much 2 foot by 4 foot boards are. So not only does it help to prevent legal issues, but it helps to prevent disappointment and private agitation on the part of the herper.

One thing you could do to find AC land is meet other herpers. I have done so and have met a few herpers in my area that had and have jobs that allowed them to acquire some land, which they have placed AC on. It saves me from having to pick the spot out and supply the AC. Granted I must be with them when checking as it is their land, and frequently gated, but they are almost always happy to go give it a whirl, what herper doesn't want to see 10 venomous snakes in under an hour? This is my big advise. Being in CA there are likely herp clubs with people that may actually own decent pieces of land with AC. They may have a monthly meeting where they do different things, one of which might be cycling through areas where the club is allowed to place AC legally, and on private land where there won't be many/anyone illegally pillaging wildlife.

Another thing, check with farmers and ranchers. They may not want snakes on their land, and if you explain that the AC will allow you to collect and relocate the snakes off their land (may be issues with state laws, but it works for my state), they may let you place AC. The downside, is they may check the AC to kill snakes before you get to checking the AC.

With what Gery said about others seeing trash and deciding to add to it, while Florida has gotten good about cleaning up, there are those out-of-sight out-of-mind areas that some of the good-ol-boys figure out about. I don't know why they just don't toss out the trash normally, seems like it is more effort to go way deep into the woods to dump it, instead of leaving it at your driveway for just a few days, but then again many people I have met that live around me are not very bright. I was surveying a site for Gopher Tortoises prior to a relocation dig and that sight had un-godly piles of trash. While plywood and metal may not harm the environment much, piles of...everything...does. The area smelt funny - like paint but not like paint - hard to explain the smell, the plants were dying around the dump piles, there was NO animals, not even bugs, it was just a wreck.


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 21st, 2014, 5:41 am 
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Joined: November 3rd, 2012, 6:00 pm
Posts: 2281
Location: Gainesville, FL
Quote:
I'm actually a little bothered by the fact that NAFHA officers would be encouraging you to break the law


I have not seen this in this thread.

Quote:
I don't know why they just don't toss out the trash normally, seems like it is more effort to go way deep into the woods to dump it, instead of leaving it at your driveway for just a few days...


If you live out in the county, away from the city, then city trash collection doesn't reach you, and you need to contact and pay for trash service. If you are poor, its cheaper to dump it in the local sinkhole than it is to pay somebody to drive out and pick up stuff. Especially for large items and hazardous material which have extra costs asociated with proper disposal.


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 21st, 2014, 5:49 am 

Joined: March 30th, 2014, 12:16 pm
Posts: 566
Location: Okaloosa ca, Fla.
captainjack0000 wrote:

If you live out in the county, away from the city, then city trash collection doesn't reach you, and you need to contact and pay for trash service. If you are poor, its cheaper to dump it in the local sinkhole than it is to pay somebody to drive out and pick up stuff. Especially for large items and hazardous material which have extra costs asociated with proper disposal.


That's just it though, the area isn't way out in the country, it is a very built up town - about the size of Ft. Walton, but not Ft. Walton. The tortoise dig wasn't to build more houses in a developing town, it was to expand on a spray field in an already well developed town. The trash wasn't old trash pre-development either, some of it was relatively fresh trash, at least fresh enough to have been after trash services started being offered...which is what confuses me about these people.


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 21st, 2014, 6:53 am 
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Joined: June 14th, 2013, 1:17 pm
Posts: 55
Location: St. Louis
I have seen snakes under tin that had been lain out just four days prior. It depends whether or not you want grass and vegetation under your tin. At least here in the midwest, vegetation under your cover can give the snake an easier way to regulate its body temperature. For fossorial snakes, thicker boards with less vegetation.

On the topic of illegal dumping, you shouldn't set out cover in a way that would encourage others to dump trash there. My advice would be to spread cover out more and keep at least a 20 yard distance between each board. Most people who dump tend to heap all their junk into one pile, so spreading out your cover boards will make it less noticeable. You could also label your cover with a note saying that the site is being used for a survey study, not a dump.

Good luck!

Edward


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 21st, 2014, 10:55 am 
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Joined: June 7th, 2010, 6:11 am
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Location: Los Angeles County
Fundad Wrote:
When checking AC ALWAYS ALWAYS replace to the EXACT location it was before, and ALWAYS remove any vegetation that gets shoved under the AC when lifting..


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 21st, 2014, 10:58 am 

Joined: September 22nd, 2012, 5:13 pm
Posts: 437
Fundad wrote:
Fundad Wrote:
When checking AC ALWAYS ALWAYS replace to the EXACT location it was before, and ALWAYS remove any vegetation that gets shoved under the AC when lifting..


Will do!


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 21st, 2014, 2:45 pm 
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Joined: June 7th, 2010, 6:09 pm
Posts: 1211
If you lay that many boards out, expect a rate of disappearance from pilfering homeless people. There are homeless people everywhere in Riverside County (just like LA County) and they are always looking for fresh materials to reinforce their makeshift housing. You may find some of your precious boards serving as walls and roofs for shelters constructed in freeway underpasses, dense shrubbery encampments, or in homeless encampments bordering drainage and flood channel embankments. If you find boards missing, check those areas first, and good luck trying to convince the thieves that it is your property and you want it back :lol: :lol: :? :D


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 22nd, 2014, 10:01 am 
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Posts: 2340
Location: Minnesota
chrish wrote:
The facts are as Gerry laid them out:

1. Putting boards on land you don't own or have a right to access is illegal....and on two fronts. It is trespassing and it is littering. Furthermore, if you were to take an animal from one of those illegal boardlines, you might be subject to poaching-type charges, depending on the local wildlife laws and their wording.

2. Taking advantage of private land access granted through your work in this way is an invitation to getting your employer in trouble and getting yourself fired....and then facing the legal consequences mentioned above. (I suspect you signed something agreeing not to do this sort of thing when you were brought on.)

Yes, herpers trespass. Yes herpers put boardlines on land they don't have access to. Of course, in much of the west, the land is at least "public land" (Forest service, BLM, etc) so that the access is permitted, but the littering isn't. Herpers road cruise in states where it is prohibited, people pick up and pose protected animals or animals in protected areas.

But NAFHA as an organization should not encourage such behavior. I'm actually a little bothered by the fact that NAFHA officers would be encouraging you to break the law. :(

It is rather hypocritical how quickly we herpers get incensed when law enforcement agencies crack down on our behavior or pass new laws restricting our behavior and then we turn around and display a flippant disregard for the existing laws.

(BTW Nick, this is not an assault on you. It is one of the many elephants in the room of our herping world.)


:thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 25th, 2014, 8:10 pm 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 7:30 pm
Posts: 399
Location: St Louis, MO / Hartford, CT
It's true that asking for permission will sometimes result in permission being denied, but it's the chance we must take. I've had a number of land owners give consent though and sometimes I've been able to show them some of the snakes I captured on their property. this is the type of education that can make a difference. When they see me holding a snake and they're able to pet it and see how harmless it is, sometimes that's the very thing that can develop a deep respect and appreciation for these species. Population density greatly affects access to private land. I would guess on the East coast less than 10% can be expected where greater than 50% can be expected in MO where much of the land is just used for cattle.


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 26th, 2014, 3:03 am 

Joined: May 9th, 2012, 12:23 pm
Posts: 59
As far as seasoning boards in my experience is I have found snakes under the boards in just one season but like others have said you can find them much sooner. One time I found a shed just a few months after being laid out.

As far as laying boards in places. Give him a break any board that is laid out any were is littering and we have all done that unless every single board you guys have laid out has been with permission on private property. And that's not going to happen expecially hear in southern California. With that said, it is best to get permission lol.


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 26th, 2014, 7:25 am 
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Joined: June 7th, 2010, 6:11 am
Posts: 5722
Location: Los Angeles County
Just because a snake is found right after its laid out proves nothing, just saying.. The point is creation of place for 10 years, over the LONG run....



Regarding the elephant in the room conversation.





Boards are biodegradable (See below for reference), and so is Tin, and placing them on private property isn't littering, in the sense of the word, "littering". (Disclaimer some local and state laws may have laws against placing items such as wood, wood chips ect, on private property, so make sure to check)



Journal of Industrial Microbiology and Biotechnology
March 2000, Volume 24, Issue 3, pp 210-218

Biodegradability and waste behavior of industrial wood-based construction materials

J S P Peltola,
J Juhanoja,
M S Salkinoja-Salonen



Industrial wood-based construction materials: chipboard, plain and overlaid plywood, phenolic surface film, laminates and selected synthetic polymers were studied for their biodegradability under aerobic and anaerobic conditions and for the environmental quality of the degradation residue. The yields of carbon dioxide plus methane from the wood-based materials in 6 months under anaerobic conditions at 33°C ranged from ⩽3% to 79% compared to that obtained from starch, and under aerobic conditions from ⩽7% to 55% of that obtained from acetate, measured in 28 days at 25°C. The plywoods were more readily degraded under aerobic and anaerobic conditions. The microbes attacked mainly the S2-layer of the plywoods and started from the S3-layer of the wood cells of chipboard in the compost. Extensive cavities, occupied with microbes, were observed by electron microscopy in the decaying plywoods, chipboard and laminates. The contents of Cu, Cr, Pb, Ni, and Cd of the wood-based construction materials were low, <10 mg kg−1, compared to PVC and to a typical municipal solid waste. Toxicity and the amount of leachable organic halogen from the wood-based construction materials were low, EC50 of 4–8 g L−1 to V. fischeri and <12 μg adsorbable organic halogen (aox) of g−1. The results show that the wood-based construction materials studied were aerobically biodegradable and the plywoods also anaerobically. There was no toxicity towards photobacteria or substances of environmental concern in the biodegradation and incineration residues of the materials tested. Journal of Industrial Microbiology & Biotechnology (2000) 24, 210–218.
Received 08 September 1999/ Accepted in revised form 10 December 1999


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 Post subject: Re: Seasoning Boardlines
PostPosted: November 26th, 2014, 3:41 pm 
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Joined: June 10th, 2010, 3:28 pm
Posts: 2293
kingsnakeadam wrote:
... we have all done that...

This is the most popular rationalization for setting boards or other herp-loving trash out without the landowner's/manager's permission. Unfortunately for those who rely on it:

- It is far from true.

- Littering/illegal dumping laws and the perceptions of non-herpers aren't based on the popularity of this behavior among herpers.

Fundad wrote:
Boards are biodegradable (See below for reference), and so is Tin, and placing them on private property isn't littering...

This rationalization is also heard fairly often. Unfortunately for those who rely on it:

- Although the first part is true, the second isn't. Littering/illegal dumping laws and the perceptions of non-herpers aren't based on the biodegradability of the trash in question, either.

I'm a bit surprised no one has yet offered the also popular rationalization that setting out such trash is "good for herps and other small animals that utilize it for cover" - which of course doesn't make it legal or acceptable to non-herpers, either.

Gerry


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