Possible Hybird Wandering Gartersnake

Dedicated exclusively to field herping.

Moderator: Scott Waters

Post Reply
Brian Eagar
Posts: 430
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 12:59 pm

Possible Hybird Wandering Gartersnake

Post by Brian Eagar »

My friends Gavin and Jamison found this cool gartersnake in Utah this week.
Imagethamnophis elegans- sirtalis hybrid_10-20-2014_175041 by brianeagar, on Flickr

Imagethamnophis elegans- sirtalis hybrid_10-20-2014_180020 by brianeagar, on Flickr

I believe this to be a hybrid between a Valley Garter snake (Thamnophis sirtalis fitchi) and a wandering garter snake (Thamnophis elegans vagrans).
I base this assessment on the overall body pattern and coloration of the wandering garter but the head being extremely weird in at least four ways:
1. It has 7 upper labials instead of 8.
2. The red band on its head which is a head coloration I've never seen or heard of in T.elegans vagrans.
3. The mutant lack of coloration on the nose.
4. The bigger than usual eyes.


Plus, this animal was found near an area where both sirtalis and elegans den and breed. It is common to see both species breeding right next to each other and sometimes even wrapped up together in the same ball of snakes. (Though copulation han't been witnessed).

It is also interesting to note that throughout Utah where both sirtalis and elegans den, that the majority of elegans have much cleaner unbroken dorsal stripes and cleaner spotting than is usually seen in elegans where sirtalis don't exist.

Here are a couple of pattern variation shots showing the variety in T.elegans vagrans and contrasted with T.sirtalis fitchi:

ImageUtah_gartersnake_variation_10-20-2014_183220 by brianeagar, on Flickr

ImageUtah Gartersnake Variety_10-20-2014_174635 by brianeagar, on Flickr

ImageUtah Gartersnake Variety_10-20-2014_174337 by brianeagar, on Flickr
User avatar
Bryan Hamilton
Posts: 1234
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 9:49 pm

Re: Possible Hybird Wandering Gartersnake

Post by Bryan Hamilton »

Tell me they collected tissue?

Awesome find!
Brian Eagar
Posts: 430
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 12:59 pm

Re: Possible Hybird Wandering Gartersnake

Post by Brian Eagar »

I have the specimen in my possession so tissue collection can always happen later.
It is a YOY. I plan to raise it up to adulthood to see if it is sterile or not.
User avatar
Jeff
Posts: 620
Joined: June 11th, 2010, 6:01 am
Location: Louisiana

Re: Possible Hybird Wandering Gartersnake

Post by Jeff »

Brian

There is nothing behind the eyes that indicates that it is anything but a Wandering Garter Snake. Clearly, the rostro-ocular area is messed up, probably pre-parturition. The snout is blunted, the iris is black, the rostral area is non-pigmented -- these are not characteristics of T. sirtalis. It's just a freak.

Jeff
Brian Eagar
Posts: 430
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 12:59 pm

Re: Possible Hybird Wandering Gartersnake

Post by Brian Eagar »

Hi Jeff,
I agree that there is nothing in the body of the snake that would indicate anything other than vagrans. The body pattern is quite standard which is why my assessment was based soley in the head.
However we don't know that vagrans characteristics would't take precedence over sirtalis in the body and sirtalis characteristics in the head. From what I have seen there seems to be a lot if different genes controlling pattern, head, body, belly and dorsal stripe coloration in vagrans. When sirtalis genes are added into the mix who knows which coloration and pattern would take precedence.
I think the most likely cause of the abnormalities is hybrid genes in the mix. I could be wrong and just to be clear that is why the post is titled possible. Thanks for your assessment.
User avatar
BillMcGighan
Posts: 2362
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 9:23 am
Location: Unicoi, TN

Re: Possible Hybird Wandering Gartersnake

Post by BillMcGighan »

I plan to raise it up to adulthood to see if it is sterile or not.
Are you sure a cross of elegans and sirtalis would be sterile?
Brian Eagar
Posts: 430
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 12:59 pm

Re: Possible Hybird Wandering Gartersnake

Post by Brian Eagar »

BillMcGighan wrote:
I plan to raise it up to adulthood to see if it is sterile or not.
Are you sure a cross of elegans and sirtalis would be sterile?
Nope I actually believe such a cross would not be sterile and that such historic crosses have leant genes into the vagrans gene pool where they are directly sympatric with sirtalis. As I mentioned above I don't think it is coincidence that vagrans that den and breed in close priximety to sirtalis are much cleaner in pattern typically and have much more well defined dorsal stripes.

Raising it up to adulthood to breed would merely help to prove whether such breeding occasionally happens and whether such crosses contribute long term to the gene pool. All of course assuming we could do genetic tests on this animal that proved it was a hybrid.

Someone could of course cross a sirtalis and elegans in captivity in a controlled fashion but I tend to feel that is unethical but it is probably the only way to really answer the question. I know the same question has arrison on the california coast beteen the subspecies of sirtalis and elegans that live there (t.s.infernalis) and (t.e.terrestris) respectfully.
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Possible Hybird Wandering Gartersnake

Post by Kelly Mc »

Is the rostral area actually keratinized scales? Are the scales actually there, and light colored, or are they missing?

Hemorrhagic hypopyon like events can present darkly as blood leaches, and eyes can appear bigger as they distend.

For it to be bilateral, if combined with missing scales could mean the snake isnt so much a freak, but perhaps survived a freak accident.
Brian Eagar
Posts: 430
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 12:59 pm

Re: Possible Hybird Wandering Gartersnake

Post by Brian Eagar »

Kelly, the rostral scales are there they are just completely lacking pigment.
The eyes aren't just bigger the Iris is black which is something I usually see in melanistic individuals of this species.
This is a neonate from this year and is in very good health with no signs of trauma.
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Possible Hybird Wandering Gartersnake

Post by Kelly Mc »

Are you sure about that? How have you investigated that tissue? The nares and character of the derm sure look like missing tiles. The eyes do look like residual trauma and even have floating matter, perhaps leukocyte material.
Brian Eagar
Posts: 430
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 12:59 pm

Re: Possible Hybird Wandering Gartersnake

Post by Brian Eagar »

Hi Kelly,
I'm pretty certain.
I haven't "investigated the tissue" other than looking at the macro shots I took of the nose.
Here is an example. Click on the photo to get to flickr where you can see it larger:
Imagethamnophis elegans- sirtalis hybrid_10-20-2014_175454 by brianeagar, on Flickr

I can upload a closer shot later tonight.
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Possible Hybird Wandering Gartersnake

Post by Kelly Mc »

Have you Touched the tissue. IE.

I sense an investment in your assessment that it is a hybrid. I still see the same, and have seen similar. Lots of snake flesh and bone passing through.
Brian Eagar
Posts: 430
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 12:59 pm

Re: Possible Hybird Wandering Gartersnake

Post by Brian Eagar »

No investment Kelly. It would be interesting if it was a hybrid but as I've mentioned in my previous comments only genetic testing would say for sure.
As I mentioned there would be easier more controlled ways of answering the questions I have about these sympatric species and potential hybridization but I won't be doing them.
As it is, it is just an interesting snake regardless of its parentage. I have a great affinity for Thamnophis and have seen thousands of wandering garters but never one like this.
I'll have to inspect its rostral in more detail and touch it as you say. I'm not sold on it being a hybrid it just seems the most likely scenario based on what I know. You may know more than me and have more specific experience that would lead you to the conclusion you are making.
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Possible Hybird Wandering Gartersnake

Post by Kelly Mc »

It is just interesting to explore these things, and look at all potentialities .

It is so strongly demarcated, in precise intrascale, and suggestive of new corneum.
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Possible Hybird Wandering Gartersnake

Post by Kelly Mc »

*duplicate post rmvd
User avatar
The Real Snake Man
Posts: 405
Joined: June 12th, 2010, 4:08 pm
Location: Pasadena, CA or Mission, TX

Re: Possible Hybird Wandering Gartersnake

Post by The Real Snake Man »

Could we be provided with a much better lit, wider f-stop range shot of the head, thus clearing up this injury-vs-mutation controversy?
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Possible Hybird Wandering Gartersnake

Post by Kelly Mc »

There is no "controversy" ..

Do photos confirm etiology? I don't think so, in scientific, veterinary field, although popular usage in current social media may enthusiastically give that impression.

That it could have been acquired; damage of trauma or infection is a rational consideration and would need more than just pics. The eye issue as well, floating matter is not a disregard able clue.

What we believe can lead us astray. I do not know if I am right, I only know that the other factors exist.
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Possible Hybird Wandering Gartersnake

Post by Kelly Mc »

Brian, your little YOY find is a compelling specimen, no matter what. yes the nose looks a little 'undone' to me and eye kind of irregular but that is only one perspective. It may be identified by other/s more experienced than I in genetics, as some calico pied expression or such, of course it could. The living world is incorrigibly various.

I admire your regard for Garters and your work.
User avatar
John Martin
Posts: 515
Joined: June 9th, 2010, 10:57 pm
Location: North end of Lake Okeechobee, Florida

Re: Possible Hybird Wandering Gartersnake

Post by John Martin »

Brian, whatever the outcome, that is one very cool snake! :beer: To me it looks like some sort of genetic thing as opposed to a hybrid - but I'm certainly only guessing. I'll be checking back on this thread to see if anyone has figured it out. Awesome!
Brian Eagar
Posts: 430
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 12:59 pm

Re: Possible Hybird Wandering Gartersnake

Post by Brian Eagar »

OK Guys,
I've uploaded several more photo's and created an album here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/utahherps ... 916425612/

Kelly,
I appreciate your input. I don't understand how injury could cause what I am seeing in this snake but if you say that you have seen similar abnormalities caused by injury or trauma I would like to learn more and would like to see some photo's if you have any.

Perhaps it is just a pie-bald wandering garter. That would still be incredibly special.
Upon closer inspection and especially on the underside of the jaw you can see that the albino pattern is shared on some scales with coloration. I think this rules out it being flesh.
Imagethamnophis_elegans_vagrans_hybrid_10-22-2014_222516 by brianeagar, on Flickr

Also note the tongue is the same color as the nose if not lighter. I tried forever to get a photo of it but only got a half decent shot of it just coming out of its mouth.

Wandering garters and garters in general are too under-rated in my opinion.
Thanks for the kind words and comments guys.

Here's one of my all time favorite wandering garters:
Imagethamnophis_e_vagrans_mel_male_belly_ by brianeagar, on Flickr
User avatar
The Real Snake Man
Posts: 405
Joined: June 12th, 2010, 4:08 pm
Location: Pasadena, CA or Mission, TX

Re: Possible Hybird Wandering Gartersnake

Post by The Real Snake Man »

That black one is a SCREAMER. Wow.
Bullfrog
Posts: 54
Joined: January 31st, 2012, 4:19 am

Re: Possible Hybird Wandering Gartersnake

Post by Bullfrog »

I don't see signs of injury on that snake. I see what looks like some sort of paradox albino (T+ perhaps?). The dark red pupils with the white nose and melanin on the rest of the body make me think this.
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Possible Hybird Wandering Gartersnake

Post by Kelly Mc »

Bullfrog wrote:I don't see signs of injury on that snake. I see what looks like some sort of paradox albino (T+ perhaps?). The dark red pupils with the white nose and melanin on the rest of the body make me think this.

Brian's newest photo, and what you have posted here make me agree, the little guy looks as clean as a whistle. :)

I included the possibility of acquired condition, as a severe scuff, pressure contact sore, or infection can cause a tender, translucent phase in healing skin, and for both eyes to be impacted it would surely have been a freak mishap, i guess it is a reflective artifact of first photo that led me in that direction as well. I pay more attention to illness and injury in snakes, historically than color variation, but I hope my inclusion added something to this interesting share.
Zach_Lim
Posts: 1607
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 8:37 pm

Re: Possible Hybird Wandering Gartersnake

Post by Zach_Lim »

SCREAMER melanistic!
jamison
Posts: 61
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:51 am

Re: Possible Hybird Wandering Gartersnake

Post by jamison »

I have been visiting this site for several years, with permission from the private land owners. Most of my observations have remained fairly casual, so as not to disrupt the den site, but since many of the snakes were out and about, I decided to collect some data. We caught 105 snakes this time, 15 were Valley Garters and the rest were Wandering. Though I have seen several snakes that I have expected to be potential crosses, this one has been the most convincing. Whether it is indeed a cross or not is to be determined but it does seem to have some very interesting genetic qualities that made for an exciting and in my opinion, attractive find. Though I have never before collected a snake from this spot, I was happy to leave this one in the possession of Brian. He is passionate about Garters, and has as much or more experience with them as anyone else I have met. I'm looking forward to seeing what comes of it.

I spent so much time wrangling and counting snakes, that I did not take a single photo myself. Gavin did get a few though, and I am sure he will post some of his also, as time allows. That said, I echo Brian's opinion that the snake is in no way injured or suffering any visible illness that might cause the irregularites.

Jamison
Post Reply