Join the 2015 Bangladesh Python Project Expedition!

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Join the 2015 Bangladesh Python Project Expedition!

Post by NatureStills » October 16th, 2014, 5:04 pm

Hey everyone,

With the overwhelming success of our 2014 Bangladesh Python Project Field Workshop, we will be offering it again in 2015 (And hopefully for many years to come).

This time we will be expanding it into two separate but more-or-less identical sessions:
1st session: June 15 - June 30
2nd session: July 3 - July 18

If you are looking to do something useful yet fun with your vacation time, this is it! Go somewhere exotic, brush up on everything from photography to in-depth herp ID to surgical transmitter implantation. All the while supporting conservation in an area that desperately needs it.

The 2014 trip was successful in making range extensions of Water Monitor (Varanus salvator) and Painted Keelback (Xenochrophis cerasogaster), a country record for the white-headed blind snake, and the discovery of new species of Micryletta frog and Crytodactylus gecko. All discoveries on the trip are published with the participants as co-authors, so this is a great opportunity to get your name on a paper!

The basic trip itinerary would consist of 9 days in Lawachara National Park performing herpetofaunal and mammalian surveys, photo workshops, radio-tracking transmittered tortoises and pythons through the forest, and the associated lab work. 1 day will be spent exploring Ratargul Freshwater Swamp by boat, which is the only freshwater swamp left in the region. And 3 days will be spent boating down the Sundarbans, the largest Mangrove system in the world! A normally cost-prohibitive experience, we will be taking a rather luxurious boat down the system finding 2 species of freshwater dolphin, saltwater crocs, and up to 70 snakes a night!

Cost is $2200 per person. This is all inclusive from the time you land to the time you leave. The only items not covered are airfare, visa ($50), and souvenirs.
**ALL proceeds from the trip go DIRECTLY to the conservation of Elongated Tortoises and Burmese Pythons**

If you’re interested in the trip you can PM me here, email me at [email protected], or Facebook me.

And here’s just a few pics from this year’s expedition

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Here is the official flyer for the trip so if you know anyone interested, feel free to send this or share it on your Facebook.
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Again, if you’re interested in the trip you can PM me here, email me at [email protected], or Facebook me.

Hope to see you there!
Scott Trageser
http://www.NatureStills.com

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Re: Join the 2015 Bangladesh Python Project Expedition!

Post by NatureStills » October 16th, 2014, 5:13 pm

Also in 2015 we will be welcoming a wide range of independent research proposals. For more information on this contact me as well

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Re: Join the 2015 Bangladesh Python Project Expedition!

Post by NatureStills » December 10th, 2014, 11:28 am

Yesterday a tanker crashed in the Sundarbans releasing 350,000 litres of oil into this majestic environment. We will now be focusing on documenting the effects of this oil spill on the Herpetofauna of the region for the last 3 days of the workshop. Come join us and help the wildlife of Bangladesh!

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Re: Join the 2015 Bangladesh Python Project Expedition!

Post by NatureStills » February 25th, 2015, 7:22 pm

Still spots open for our June 15-30 trip! Email or PM me if interested. Payment plans available!

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Re: Join the 2015 Bangladesh Python Project Expedition!

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck » February 26th, 2015, 2:53 am

Nice project! Might be tempted to join (but not this year). Hadn't seen this before, so I really have to say the scene in that second picture sure is something to remember... :shock: :thumb:

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Re: Join the 2015 Bangladesh Python Project Expedition!

Post by WSTREPS » February 28th, 2015, 7:17 am

I didn't think this was a commercial advertising website to be used for promoting and selling. If you need to advertise there are many places you can do that on the web. My guess is you (NatureStills) like fishing for customers here because this site has the right demographic to push your crap on. I have nothing against someone making a go of something but don't pretend its anything more then that. Your trying to make a living by selling a product and part of that involves acting like your doing something important to help. Its all part of the sales pitch. What was the price last year? And now, its how much ?

This PYTHON PROJECT represents nothing more then a couple guys who are finding another way to cash in on the phony Everglades python hysteria. In this case under the guise of another senseless radio tracking project being used as a way of promoting their eco tour / wildlife photography business .

A bit about radio tracking projects . The use of radio tracking has proven to have no purpose in the control and management of any snake species. Please save you examples of its use with rattlesnake's, indigos , mamba's , every invasive species biologist favorite the Brown Tree Snake. I'm familiar with all these and what been accomplished. The complete futility in achieving meaningful results.

Academia attempt to justify and promote the usefulness of radio tracking by saying things such as found in this VanAr quote, Placing transmitters, etc. in the snakes allows us to get a handle on what they're doing- what they eat, where they go, what temperature profiles they maintain, population sizes, etc. This information could be used to develop more effective control/extermination measures in the future, predict how far north they might spread, or develop other management procedures that buffer mammal populations from python effects.

To the typical person who is completely (for all intensive purposes ) lacking all knowledge of the actual usable data produced by these fun work radio tracking biological projects , I'm sure it all sounds very significant. But in the real world, how the information looks on paper compared to how it can and has been used in a practical and impactful manor is something different. Nothing of any real use has ever come out of these radio tracking projects. Certainly these programs produce papers and articles filled with the "important" data obtained by the study. But if one reviews this information with an educated eye it is quickly revealed that nothing that isn't common knowledge or has a practical and demonstrable use is ever found within the presented data. Maybe radio tracking programs are useful with mammal's or birds but when it come to snakes nothing that matters one way or the other has ever come out of them.

But just to show I really would like to help . I'm willing to send over a couple cases of powdered milk and the address to the Harry Chapin food bank . Maybe you can hustle some sort of deal with them. That would be far more useful then any Python Project.

Ernie Eison

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Re: Join the 2015 Bangladesh Python Project Expedition!

Post by Bryan Hamilton » February 28th, 2015, 11:10 am

One the one hand I kind of agree with Ernie, that this seems like a advertisement. The photos are spectacular, however. As usual though, the rest of Ernie's post is absolute garbage, propaganda, and science bashing.

Radio tracking has revolutionized our understanding of snakes. Ernie's criticism is almost comincal, this guy has it all figured out in his own warped world. I'm not going to respond to anything specific in Ernie's post, after he wants us to save it. But I will continue to bury his verbal diarrhea so at least it isn't the most recent post.

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Re: Join the 2015 Bangladesh Python Project Expedition!

Post by Mattsnake » March 2nd, 2015, 12:38 am

…...

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Re: Join the 2015 Bangladesh Python Project Expedition!

Post by jonathan » March 7th, 2015, 1:41 am

Of course it is an advertisement, like many things are advertised here. But for it to be a commercial advertisement, wouldn't someone have to be making money off of it? Fundraising for a scientific project (that is being run by someone other than yourself) and selling something for your own pockets are two very different things.

If you really have a problem with it, why not just send a message to the website administrator and ask him to remove or? Or send a message to Scott, "NatureStills", and ask him to clarify the project and its funding for you.


Ernie, one clarification that may help would be for you to know that the Bangladesh Python Project was founded and is run entirely by Bangladeshi scientists. It's not Scott's project, and it's not how he makes a living. If you really have concerns you could just as easily have spoken to Scott on your own and asked exactly where the money will go.


Now, as far as what may be the most ignorant stupidity in the post:
This PYTHON PROJECT represents nothing more then a couple guys who are finding another way to cash in on the phony Everglades python hysteria. In this case under the guise of another senseless radio tracking project being used as a way of promoting their eco tour / wildlife photography business.
Some basic facts that make your assertion look just ignorant.

1) None of the people who run the radio-tracking project have an ecotour or wildlife photography business. They don't take professional pictures, and using an ecotour/research opportunity to help fund a project that has to stretch a ton for each new radio was Scott's idea. You should know that it isn't particularly easy in Bangladesh to pick up significant funds for research initiatives, especially herp research. Creative ideas to make a meaningful project happen are a good idea, not something to take a giant crap on top of.

2) The python project started years ago, before anyone involved even knew Scott. It had been ongoing for a few years before Scott got involved.

3) Radiotracking of pythons and tortoises is one meaningful and thought-out aspect of the project, but the project actually involves a study of all the reptiles and amphibians on the site and hopefully will meaningfully contribute to their conservation in the future.

4) Scott got involved to help with the fundraising and awareness, and provides support for the 2 weeks that he's there in the year (four weeks this year), but otherwise I don't believe he's really involved at all. This is a Bangladeshi project.

5) The Bangladeshi scientists involved care more about wildlife and conservation than anyone I know. They deeply love the animals and the people of the forest, and have sold out for them. If you knew them even on an online basis, you wouldn't doubt this. They could easily have used their intelligence and education to be in America making loads of dollars off of the giant American Ecology Studies Money Pipeline that you're always talking about, but instead they've chosen to stay in their native Bangladesh, because they believe that studies are really lacking there and the animals and people of the forest really need help. Both of the main founders are involved in multiple other, self-initiated, very quiet conservation projects that you'll never know anything about.


Scott can correct me if I've gotten anything wrong. I don't believe that any of the actual people who run the Python Project use this site.

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Re: Join the 2015 Bangladesh Python Project Expedition!

Post by WSTREPS » March 19th, 2015, 12:01 pm

Double post deleted

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Re: Join the 2015 Bangladesh Python Project Expedition!

Post by gbin » March 19th, 2015, 3:58 pm

Bryan Hamilton wrote:... As usual though, the rest of Ernie's post is absolute garbage, propaganda, and science bashing.
Indeed. I thought Ernie's vigorous FHF smear campaign was specifically against scientists/research focused on the pythons in the FL Everglades, but apparently any kind of connection made here between pythons and scientific research is enough to set him off. I suppose virtually everyone here is already clued into his dishonest hysterics, but for any who might not be, this is the main point to take away:
gbin wrote:[Ernie Eison] and [David and Tracy] Barkers' many years spent trafficking in pythons has enabled them to learn a fair bit about these snakes, without a doubt, but his and the Barkers' profound vested interest - not to mention his profound dishonesty in defending that vested interest from perceived threats (I won't speak to the Barkers' methods, as I'm not nearly so familiar with them as I am his) - unfortunately means that no one should trust anything Ernie Eison has to say on the subject of FL's pythons or the scientists/research focusing on them.
Or, I guess, on any scientists/research focusing on pythons. :roll:

Gerry

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Re: Join the 2015 Bangladesh Python Project Expedition!

Post by jonathan » March 19th, 2015, 5:18 pm

Ernie, over PM I offered to clarify anything for you that you were confused on. Instead, you continue to go public with misinformation and attacks about people and a project you obviously know nothing about. Why? What is this weird hatred you have for scientists studying pythons?

You claimed:
WSTREPS wrote:The reason the pythons get top billing is because the Bangladeshi scientists are trying to cash in on the Florida python research feeding frenzy. The phrase " cash in " to take advantage of or exploit (a situation).
This PYTHON PROJECT represents nothing more then a couple guys who are finding another way to cash in on the phony Everglades python hysteria. In this case under the guise of another senseless radio tracking project being used as a way of promoting their eco tour / wildlife photography business.


Your claim gets into the roots of your obsession. It also helps to explain why you would actively try to harm a scientific research project that you know nothing about and which has no bearing on your own life.

Can you show me one person, even just a single participant, who joined the Bangladesh Python Project because there are pythons in the Everglades? The first trip had a veterinarian, a wetlands biologist, a couple American herpers, two wildlife relocation experts/herpers from Australia, Scott and Ash and a number of Bangladeshis. Can you point to a single one of us whose interest in the project had anything at all to do with Florida's pythons? Can you even explain any logical reason why "There's pythons in Florida!" would make someone want to pay money to go study them in Bangladesh?


Your clear assertion is that the radiotracking is senseless and is only a means of promoting a business. I already pointed out to you that:

1) The Bangladeshi scientists started the radiotracking project before Scott was involved in any sense, therefore it couldn't possibly have been done "as a way of promoting their eco tour / wildlife photography business".

2) Radiotracking is not "senseless".

3) The only point of the eco tour is to put funds directly into the project. Those funds are used for project equipment and the payment of project staff, who are local village people. The scientists do not make their living off of the project funding. Thus, if they are "cashing in" on a senseless project, they are being very stupid about it, because they're dumping all the cash right back into the project!

Also, I seriously doubt that Scott has ever sold a single photograph with any relation whatsoever to the python issue in the Everglades.



You also claimed:
WSTREPS wrote:Your trying to make a living by selling a product and part of that involves acting like your doing something important to help. Its all part of the sales pitch. What was the price last year? And now, its how much ?
You are claiming that the price of the trip has something to do with Scott making a living. But the price of the trip goes into project funding, not Scott's living.



You go on and on with stuff about supposedly false claims that scientists in Florida make about radiotracking studies, such as:
WSTREPS wrote:This information could be used to develop more effective control/extermination measures in the future, predict how far north they might spread, or develop other management procedures that buffer mammal populations from python effects.....
Which is all meaningless, because the point of the Bangladesh Python Project is to study and conserve pythons in their natural habitat in Bangladesh, NOT to control them in Florida.

In their actual habitat in Bangladesh, knowing exactly what they eat, how far they individually range, when they are active, which parts of the microhabitat they utilize, how often they enter human settlements, how far they move after relocation and whether they return to their old range, and other such questions ARE extremely important in the effort to conserve them in the small patches of natural habitat they have left.



It's clear that you have deep personal issues with the scientific community, most specifically in the areas where it intersects with your own business. As a result, you seem to have projected your hate over to any enterprise of anyone in the scientific community, anywhere in the world, that even has the word "python" in it. Take a step back and think about what you're doing before replying again.

Or simply PM me, and I can give you more specifics on any other part of the project you are confused or misinformed about.

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Re: Join the 2015 Bangladesh Python Project Expedition!

Post by WSTREPS » March 19th, 2015, 5:50 pm

I'm not going to devote any more time (well, I think I'll put a little more time in) to this beyond this post but,

Both parties Scott Trageser and the Bangladeshi scientists are separate entities who are directly connected and work together.

Some basic facts that make your assertion look just ignorant.

1) None of the people who run the radio-tracking project have an ecotour or wildlife photography business. They don't take professional pictures,
Jonathan


My name is Scott Trageser and I run NatureStills LLC. I am a herpetologist and professional photographer.

NatureStills
Media/News/Publishing Scott Trageser

LLC.

Limited Liability Company / business / professional photographer

The Bangladeshi scientists may not have a professional photography business's but their close associate Scott Trageser does. As for owning an Eco Tour business , the Bangladeshi scientists might not own the Eco Tour business but,
Fundraising for a scientific project (that is being run by someone other than yourself) and selling something for your own pockets are two very different things.
Jonathan
Not when your the direct beneficiary , in this case the Bangladeshi scientists are the direct recipients i.e., beneficiary's of the funds generated by this eco tour business. This Eco tour is a for profit venture, how the money is spent is irrelevant to the fact that the point is to turn a profit. Make money, this whole thing is being promoted as the Bangladesh Python Project. The reason the pythons get top billing is because the Bangladeshi scientists are trying to cash in on the Florida python research feeding frenzy. The phrase " cash in " to take advantage of or exploit (a situation).

Ernie Eison
Indeed. I thought Ernie's vigorous FHF smear campaign was specifically against scientists/research focused on the pythons in the FL Everglades, but apparently any kind of connection made here between pythons and scientific research is enough to set him off. I suppose virtually everyone here is already clued into his dishonest hysterics, but for any who might not be, this is the main point to take away: gbin
Which is all meaningless, because the point of the Bangladesh Python Project is to study and conserve pythons in their natural habitat in Bangladesh, NOT to control them in Florida. Jonathon

The Bangladesh Python Project is demonstrably tied to the Florida python hysteria. The Bangladesh Python Project flat out says their research will provide us with "insight " on the "invasion mechanism" of the Burmese pythons in Florida. They wasted no time in posting the article about the marsh rabbit study on their Facebook page, from the word go they were openly including themselves in the Florida situation.

Bottom line, Had it not been for the pythons in Florida the Bangladesh Python Project would not have happened. Like many they saw it as an opportunity for something they could get in on.

I have looked into this Python project and the people who it benefits and how, what they get out of it , what they have said, who has supplied them with expensive equipment etc. I certainly don't need to pm Jonathon for any further insight on this topic. There is nothing private I have to say about any of this. I'm making my points and providing verifiable evidence to support them.

The rest of Jonathon's post is his usual misleading (taking things out of context, misrepresentative, somewhat condescending, manipulative, somewhat stupid ) rhetoric. His strange way of trying to shift the topic away from proven points by interjecting his version of the facts along with character assassination to try and prop up his side of the story. Its always about trying to tare away at my credibility. School yard games.

Rather then make another post, I`ll tack this little tidbit on to this existing one.
[Ernie Eison] and [David and Tracy] Barkers' many years spent trafficking in pythons has enabled them to learn a fair bit about these snakes, without a doubt, but his and the Barkers' profound vested interest - not to mention his profound dishonesty in defending that vested interest from perceived threats (I won't speak to the Barkers' methods, as I'm not nearly so familiar with them as I am his) - unfortunately means that no one should trust anything Ernie Eison has to say on the subject of FL's pythons or the scientists/research focusing on them. gbin
His and the Barkers' many years spent trafficking in pythons has enabled them to learn a fair bit about these snakes, gbin
This misinformation was corrected by placing gbin's nonsense into factual perspective. I'll include the direct link to the thread this post was taken from for anyone with an interest in reading the whole thing and commenting in the appropriate thread, without cluttering up this one. http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... 16&t=21365


As pointed out the Barkers spent years of intense scientific study in reaching their level of expertise, it is not simply the result of picking things up while being just a couple of snake traffickers as the poster (gbin) try's to lead the reader into believing .

The poster gbin finishes with a bang. Belittling two people (the Barkers) who are regarded by many professional herpetologist and biologist as two of the worlds leading scentific authorities on pythons. Certainly the Barkers extensive body of scientific work supports this.

This work includes the most comprehensive, scientifically detailed books and publications ever written on the subject of pythons and their ecology. Their extensive professional backgrounds in working with many other types reptiles and amphibians, everything from field work with the now extinct Golden toad and tuatara's to common rattlesnakes and many other types of animals. Their research , dedication and scientific knowledge is beyond reproach. Both Dave and Tracy Barker have extensive academic backgrounds as well as an unfathomable amount of private work on which to hang their hats on. I would venture to say they are the most experienced python experts in world today. In their work you will not find the glaring errors and misinformation, the exaggerated claims that have been a consistent trade mark of the " funded " python researcher's work.


Quote:

WSTREPS wrote:
... busily throwing everything and anything at the wall to see if he can get something to stick.

Look again at my earlier post. gbin
ok,

It was said,
These three people have long been involved in importing, breeding and selling pythons for profit. gbin
These three people is referring to the Barkers and myself. This skewed information was then corrected, To refresh, I have not imported or sold large constrictors at this point, I'm guessing it's been over a decade. I have a ZERO monetary vested interest in this issue. The Barkers have NEVER been commercial importers.

The Barkers have been openly discouraging people from keeping and breeding large constrictors, encouraging keepers to work with smaller more manageable species for even longer than I have. As with most things involving these creatures they have been at the forefront of a sensible best practice protocol from both a conservation and captive husbandry perspective.


It was said ,
Do a quick search and you'll find that any time the subject of FL's pythons comes up (and he's not infrequently the one who brings it up) gbin
This untruth was then corrected, The number of threads I have started on the introduced python topic is exactly two. And these threads were years apart. One I didn't even comment on. I will add that there have been many threads on the subject that I did not participate in.

It was said ,
as with perhaps one or two occasional exceptions these scientists don't participate here (and so can't defend themselves from Ernie's unceasing campaign here to discredit them and their work). But, yes, I have gotten to know Ernie all too well. gbin
This untruth was then corrected,

People who have been directly involved with various Everglades python projects, that have posted (some many times) in the discussions I've participated in, include people such as, Bob Reed, Mike Roachford, Josh Holbrook, Chris Gillette, their friends and colleagues , keep in mind that some of these people at the time these discussions were taking place, were working directly with other high profile python researchers such as Skip Snow and Gordon Rodda. Most of these names are mentioned in the Dorcas / Wilson book that is the actual topic of this discussion. , in fact the book is dedicated to Skip Snow.

For someone to say that these scientists have not often participated here is absurd. Bob Reed posted in this very thread!

It was said ,

That's only one single charge, it was made only after he had already in this thread made essentially the same charge against others gbin
This comment was gbin's claim that he only accused me of one thing after I pointed out his making multiple false claims. Clearly a lot of crap was thrown at the wall in making that one charge, everything and anything he could dredge up from the bowels of his imagination.

As for me making essentially the same charge against others. There is a very profound difference, my words are based on years of personal experience, reading the books, peer reviewed articles, examining the study's, comparing statistical data, going over the work published by Reed, Rodda, Dave and Tracy Barker, Mike Dorcus, Richard Shine etc. I have a deep and personal knowledge of these animals , their environment and the work that's been done. Based on this I'm able to (and do) bring to light and often correct the glaring (and not so glaring) faults in methodology and the misinformation in an often blunt but educated manor. I have the level of expertise on the subject to do so.

On the other hand , gbin / Gerry brings this to the table ,

I'm not personally acquainted with any of the scientists who have been/are, either. Heck, I don't really even know all that much about the situation, having myself read only a bit more about it than what has appeared in the popular press and, to be frank, not giving it all that much thought, either. gbin

Nuff said, Ernie Eison

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Re: Join the 2015 Bangladesh Python Project Expedition!

Post by jonathan » March 20th, 2015, 1:10 am

Ernie, did you just claim that you weren't going to post again, then read my response, deleted the original post, and tried to pass off a new, altered version afterwards while attaching a fake "double post deleted" statement on the first post?

"Double post deleted" is for when you accidentally post twice. Not when you read someone's response and want to take back/alter your original post and incorporate their rebuttal.

I honestly don't think I've ever seen someone do that before:

WSTREPS wrote:The Bangladeshi scientists may not have a professional photography business's but their close associate Scott Trageser does. As for owning an Eco Tour business , the Bangladeshi scientists might not own the Eco Tour business but,
Yet the Bangladeshi scientists didn't even know Scott when they started the project, nor did they think of the idea of herpers paying money to come and assist the project, therefore you can't in the least claim that the reason they started the Bangladesh Python Project was to promote Scott's photos or run an ecotour business, which was your initial claim that you still don't want to apologize for.

The timeline absolutely proves you wrong. Scott was in no way involved or even known to the project scientists when the project started. Anyone who actually wants to know who started the project and how it started can read that here. Scott's involvement doesn't even come until Part 2.


WSTREPS wrote:
Fundraising for a scientific project (that is being run by someone other than yourself) and selling something for your own pockets are two very different things.
Jonathan
Not when your the direct beneficiary , in this case the Bangladeshi scientists are the direct recipients i.e., beneficiary's of the funds generated by this eco tour business.
But "you're" is not the Bangladeshi scientists. Scott made this post, not them. Since you claim that the scientists are the direct beneficiaries, and they clearly didn't post a fundraising post on the FHF forum, your point is wrong once again.

And if you claim that Scott runs an ecotour business, you should also claim that I have a writing business. I mean, if I get paid for writing an article and the money goes to the project, do I now have a herping literature business?


WSTREPS wrote:This Eco tour is a for profit venture, how the money is spent is irrelevant to the fact that the point is to turn a profit.


I don't think you know what a "for profit venture" is. Nonprofit ventures can have products to fund their work too. Do you believe that any nonprofit that takes donations or payments in exchange for a service or a product is now a "for profit"?

The money goes into the project. The purpose is not to make a profit, the purpose is to fund the nonprofit venture. Therefore, it is not a "for profit" venture.


WSTREPS wrote:Make money, this whole thing is being promoted as the Bangladesh Python Project. The reason the pythons get top billing is because the Bangladeshi scientists are trying to cash in on the Florida python research feeding frenzy. The phrase " cash in " to take advantage of or exploit (a situation).
As I asked you before, what are you basing that on? Have you spoken to anyone involved to understand their reason for wanting to study pythons? Are you so America-centric that you actually believe that only events in Florida can drive the motivations of the rest of the world? That even Bangladeshi scientists don't give a crap about the Bangladeshi pythons, and only wish to study them in order to exploit some American obsession?


WSTREPS wrote:
Which is all meaningless, because the point of the Bangladesh Python Project is to study and conserve pythons in their natural habitat in Bangladesh, NOT to control them in Florida.

The Bangladesh Python Project is demonstrably tied to the Florida python hysteria. The Bangladesh Python Project flat out says their research will provide us with "insight " on the "invasion mechanism" of the Burmese pythons in Florida. They wasted no time in posting the article about the marsh rabbit study on their Facebook page, from the word go they were openly including themselves in the Florida situation.
You sure you couldn't have cherry-picked those 1-word and 2-word quotes any shorter? Here is the actual text that Ernie is quoting from (I don't know if it was actually written by the scientists involved or just by the Orianne Society which donated some money and expertise to the project, but it accurately represents the project goals):
Bangladesh Python Project

With support from the Orianne Society, the Bangladesh Python Project was established with a mission to conduct research and promote conservation of reptiles in Bangladesh, with the Burmese Python (Python bivittatus) as the flagship species.

Burmese Pythons are an iconic snake species that is best known through the pet trade and as an invasive species in Florida. The python study site in Bangladesh falls within the Indo-Burma Biodiversity Hotspot. Despite their high diversity, snakes in this region are drastically understudied, and almost nothing is known about the species within its native range in Asia where populations are believed to be declining. In particular, there is little to no detailed information available on python thermal biology, habitat preference, movement patterns, behavior or home range size in the native range. The lack of these data makes conservation and management strategies difficult to develop and implement.

Burmese Pythons are Endangered in Bangladesh and listed as Vulnerable by IUCN Red List. The declines are almost certainly due to a combination of human exploitation and habitat loss. The project is conducted in collaboration with CARINAM, Bangladesh and Forest Department of Bangladesh.


Project Goals

The Bangladesh Python Project goals are:

1. to assist with effective conservation of Burmese Pythons in their native range by collecting ecological information
2. to raise awareness about Burmese Python declines and their importance among local people
3. to provide local training in conservation research techniques
4. to formulate a sustainable model to mitigate python-human conflict and to mitigate python hunting throughout Bangladesh and beyond

We are currently radio tracking four adult pythons in Lawachara National Park, Bangladesh. It is the first ever radio telemetry study of any snakes in Bangladesh. We will be putting transmitters in more pythons in the coming years. The information gained from the study will equip us with the proper knowledge for long-term conservation efforts of this species in its native range, and it will also provide us with insight on the invasion mechanism of the Burmese Python in southern Florida. We hire local residents to participate in field activities of the project, and we provide internship opportunities for Bangladeshi university students.
Notice a very clear list of goals and very clear description of what the project is actually about. There is a tiny mention of Florida in there, but only a brief statement about "insight" of the invasion mechanism that is not listed as one of the project goals and not claiming that it will give answers on how to control them in Florida, which is what you claimed.

And the fact that someone on the facebook page of a Burmese Python study happened to post a link to another Burmese Python study? Doesn't that seem, well, normal? I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they continue to post other articles about Burmese Python research on their Facebook page, but that in no way proves that that other Burmese Python research is the only reason they exist. People on facebook post links to related work.


WSTREPS wrote:Bottom line, Had it not been for the pythons in Florida the Bangladesh Python Project would not have happened. Like many they saw it as an opportunity for something they could get in on.
How could you possibly know this? As I already said, the scientists involved in the project are simultaneously running multiple other projects in Bangladesh focused on a large variety of other herps - gharials, crocodiles, tortoises, turtles, snakes, frogs, etc. Why do you assume that they have something against pythons and would have left them out if it hadn't been for Florida? What do you think that these scientists want to "get in on" other than studying and conserving herps in their native country? And why would they want to study every herp in the jungle except the apex predator?

The scientists involved could be doing herp research in a Western country if they wanted to, which offers far more funding than Bangladesh does. If they really wanted to "get in" on something, why are they still full-time in Bangladesh?


WSTREPS wrote:I have looked into this Python project and the people who it benefits and how, what they get out of it , what they have said, who has supplied them with expensive equipment etc. I certainly don't need to pm Jonathon for any further insight on this topic. There is nothing private I have to say about any of this. I'm making my points and providing verifiable evidence to support them.
Since you have gotten facts about the project's origin, who was involved, and who is benefiting demonstrably wrong already, I thought it might be worth making the offer to help you clarify the facts.

And the only "verifiable" evidence you provided about the Bangladesh Python Project this entire time was 3 words cherry-picked out of a long statement whose remaining text clearly proved that you were wrong.


WSTREPS wrote:The rest of Jonathon's post is his usual misleading (taking things out of context, misrepresentative, somewhat condescending, manipulative, somewhat stupid ) rhetoric. His strange way of trying to shift the topic away from proven points by interjecting his version of the facts along with character assassination to try and prop up his side of the story. Its always about trying to tare away at my credibility. School yard games.
[/quote]

Why would you even say those things about me? I'm stupid? Condescending? Manipulative? Where have I taken anything out of context at all?

I certainly do believe that you don't have any credibility to speak into the Bangladesh Python Project, but I've been able to demonstrate that with detailed descriptions of what the project is really about and explanations that show that your assertions were wrong. Proving that you're making false claims or that your logic is invalid isn't character assassination, and if it tares away at your credibility, so be it.

In fact, isn't "tare away" at other people's credibility the entire point of what you've been doing? If you have any other objective here, what is it?

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Re: Join the 2015 Bangladesh Python Project Expedition!

Post by jonathan » March 20th, 2015, 1:18 am

Also, Ernie, you seem to have made an error and tacked on a different argument between Gerry and yourself into this thread. None of that stuff belongs in this thread.

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Re: Join the 2015 Bangladesh Python Project Expedition!

Post by WSTREPS » March 20th, 2015, 7:05 am

Ernie, did you just claim that you weren't going to post again, then read my response, deleted the original post, and tried to pass off a new, altered version afterwards while attaching a fake "double post deleted" statement on the first post?

"Double post deleted" is for when you accidentally post twice. Not when you read someone's response and want to take back/alter your original post and incorporate their rebuttal.

I honestly don't think I've ever seen someone do that before: jonathan
NO, I deleted my first post the only way I know how, the reason being, I reposted the expanded version including the added statements . I wanted to condense everything in one post, I added to the original post but did not "take back/alter my original post ". All the original content remained intact. It was an effort to consolidate. I never deleted a post on this forum before , I didn't see a delete post option , so I did it the only way I know how, nothing "fake about it". I did not take back/alter the original in anyway I reposted everything in tact with the added statements, period.


Yet the Bangladeshi scientists didn't even know Scott when they started the project, nor did they think of the idea of herpers paying money to come and assist the project, therefore you can't in the least claim that the reason they started the Bangladesh Python Project was to promote Scott's photos or run an ecotour business, which was your initial claim that you still don't want to apologize for.

And if you claim that Scott runs an ecotour business, you should also claim that I have a writing business. I mean, if I get paid for writing an article and the money goes to the project, do I now have a herping literature business? jonathan
The fact is this,



I never stated any time line as to who started what or when they got involved. The radio tracking might have started prior to the eco trip business but its now being used as promotional tool for that business.

Its no coincidence that they decided to highlight Burmese pythons in their work, to coincide with the massive attention the pythons have been receiving in the media and scientific worlds. They saw something they could get in on and played it up. The phrase " cash in " to take advantage of or exploit (a situation). They called it the Bangladesh Python Project not the Bangladesh wildlife project or anything else for that specific reason.

I did not list Scott Trageser as owning an Eco tour business or name any ownership of that business, I did state who the beneficiary's are .

What did post was this ,
My name is Scott Trageser and I run NatureStills LLC. I am a herpetologist and professional photographer.

NatureStills
Media/News/Publishing Scott Trageser
LLC. Limited Liability Company / business / professional photographer

The Bangladeshi scientists may not have a professional photography business's but their close associate Scott Trageser does. As for owning an Eco Tour business , the Bangladeshi scientists might not own the Eco Tour business but,
There is an eco tour business being run in association with this project, Scott Trageser did promote it here.

The tour is a for profit venture, the Bangladeshi scientists are using the profits to finance their other projects ( they are the direct beneficiary's ) of these profits. But how the money is spent is secondary to the main point that they are making money / profit from the Eco tour.

Scott Trageser runs NatureStills LLC. NatureStills LLC is Scott Trageser's business he is a professional photographer. He certainly does take pictures on these Eco tours and uses them. Note
every photo that was posted taken from the Python Project tour is water marked Scott Trageser Wildlife Photography.
The information gained from the study will equip us with the proper knowledge for long-term conservation efforts of this species in its native range, and it will also provide us with insight on the invasion mechanism of the Burmese Python in southern Florida. Bangladesh Python Project

Which is all meaningless, because the point of the Bangladesh Python Project is to study and conserve pythons in their natural habitat in Bangladesh, NOT to control them in Florida. jonathon
These two statements don't jive when placed side by side, but the top one clearly does make my point. its the key statement. Invasion mechanism of the Burmese Python in southern Florida ? The pythons have not invaded anything they are an introduced species. The inclusion of that statement and its wording is very telling.

Also, Ernie, you seem to have made an error and tacked on a different argument between Gerry and yourself into this thread. None of that stuff belongs in this thread. jonathon

This misinformation was corrected by placing gbin's nonsense into factual perspective. I'll include the direct link to the thread this post was taken from for anyone with an interest in reading the whole thing and commenting in the appropriate thread, without cluttering up this one. http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... 16&t=21365 Ernie Eison
I clearly note that this was taken from a separated thread, that gbin reposted his comment about the Barkers and myself from that thread in this thread . I added the link to the thread where the statement was taken from and added information pertaining to that comment onto this thread for those who read this one without going to view the other one. No mistake.

Ernie Eison

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Re: Join the 2015 Bangladesh Python Project Expedition!

Post by gbin » March 20th, 2015, 7:23 am

Folks can read through Ernie's garbage if they find it entertaining, but this is really all one needs to know about him with respect to his participation in this thread:
gbin wrote:
gbin wrote:[Ernie Eison] and [David and Tracy] Barkers' many years spent trafficking in pythons has enabled them to learn a fair bit about these snakes, without a doubt, but his and the Barkers' profound vested interest - not to mention his profound dishonesty in defending that vested interest from perceived threats (I won't speak to the Barkers' methods, as I'm not nearly so familiar with them as I am his) - unfortunately means that no one should trust anything Ernie Eison has to say on the subject of FL's pythons or the scientists/research focusing on them.
Or, I guess, on any scientists/research focusing on pythons. :roll:
Gerry

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Re: Join the 2015 Bangladesh Python Project Expedition!

Post by jonathan » March 20th, 2015, 4:56 pm

Since you're just rehashing the same stuff for the 3rd time in a row after you claimed you would stop, this thread seems to be done with useful content. I'll just post a bit of logic/definitions to help you.

* If someone wasn't known to the scientists until 2013, and his idea didn't exist until 2013, then that idea can't have been the reason for a project they started in 2011. The BPP's radiotracking efforts were started completely independently of anything Scott does and is not some senseless project meant just to promote those things.

* The four goals of the BPP were clearly marked out in the text that you read, and have nothing to do with Florida. All 4 goals were integral to conserving Bangladesh's herptofauna and don't relate to Florida's invasive pythons at all. The fact that you cherry-picked one phrase out of one sentence in a 3-paragraph introduction to the project does not mean that you can ignore the other 98% of the text, which clearly shows that the purpose of the project is not to control Florida's pythons.

* Also on that note, "understand the invasion mechanism" is not equivalent to "develop more effective control/management procedures" or "buffer mammal populations". That tiny note saying that understanding native pythons better might help us understand their introduction mechanism better is not at all a claim that this project will tell people how to control pythons. That's all your addition.

* "Invasive species" is a commonly used term that simply refers to an introduced species believed to have a detrimental impact. "Invasion mechanism" is just a parallel to "Introduction mechanism". It does not mean that the pythons chose on their own to "invade" anything.

* You claimed that you shouldn't advertise for things you directly benefit from, and then claimed that the ecotour directly benefits the Bangladeshi scientists. You still ignore that Scott, not the scientists, posted the notice.

* Yes, it's no accident that they called it the Bangladesh Python Project. The main scientist involved is more interested in the pythons than the other herps. Pythons are huge, and they're an apex predator, and they're well-known from the snake trade. And "Bangladesh Python Project" has great alliteration and a much better ring to it than "Bangladesh Wildlife Project" or "Bangladesh Tortoise Project". And all of that is true regardless of whatever happens in Florida. The BPP has received much more press in Bangladesh than it has in the USA, and hardly anyone in Bangladesh cares much about the Everglades. You're just so focused on your personal crusade against python researchers that you don't seem to believe that there could be reasons to do something outside of your own little bubble.

* Saying, "This is the last thing I'll post", and then deleting that claim and posting repeatedly afterwards, is a bit dishonest. You still haven't explained why you thought it was cool to delete your post after I responded, and then try to slip in the edited responses after mine. This is how message boards work - they show the order in which things were actually posted, not a new made-up order that one particular poster prefers.

* Cross-posting large amounts of text into non-relevant threads is generally frowned upon.

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Re: Join the 2015 Bangladesh Python Project Expedition!

Post by gbin » March 21st, 2015, 4:35 am

jonathan wrote:* Saying, "This is the last thing I'll post", and then deleting that claim and posting repeatedly afterwards, is a bit dishonest...
You think? ;)

Switching the order of posts around to try to make it look as if his unwarranted denigrations of others are fresh and unaddressed is really among the least of Ernie's many falsehoods. At some point, jonathan, you should realize that you're serving his purpose rather than your own by trying to engage him in an honest discussion. Best just to point out what he's doing and why, and leave it at that. (I know it can be difficult, though, as he is skilled at drawing people in/these "debates" of his out...)

Gerry

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Re: Join the 2015 Bangladesh Python Project Expedition!

Post by Scott Waters » March 21st, 2015, 11:07 am

Ok, enough. To everyone who is participating in the mud slinging......take this crap to private messaging or be gone. Quote me, complain about all you want, I truly do not care. You are FAR LESS important to me than people who will simply ignore what doesn't interest them, or brings something positive to the table. YOU are the problem, not the solution. I'm not discussing this beyond further. Your choice. I guess that could mean taking it elsewhere. Like maybe FB, as that place loves arguments and petty complaints.

Scott

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Re: Join the 2015 Bangladesh Python Project Expedition!

Post by NatureStills » April 10th, 2015, 2:22 pm

These posts were just now brought to my attention so please pardon my belated reply. I've been in the field with limited internet access, and am not set to receive notifications for replies here.

I don’t want to get into any mud-slinging so I’m simply going to set the record straight about my involvement with the Bangladesh Python Project and about the "profits" earned through these workshops.

First off, yes this is obviously an advertisement aimed towards getting people to sign up for the workshop. I did my best to make that painfully obvious. And since it is a non-profit and purely for the animals, it seems a great fit for the forum.

I volunteer a great deal of my own time to this project as a pro-bono venture. I provide scientific consulting services, on site field training, and promotional services to the project. All SOLELY because I believe in the project and the people involved. I turn down other extremely lucrative consulting gigs every year to be involved, so, in fact, I lose a considerable amount of potential income by participating in these tours.

I do certainly benefit from the photographic opportunities granted while on the project. I didn't think I was hiding that, or had any reason too. The photos serve many purposes, but in the end, all those purposes bring attention to the threatened creatures of Bangladesh. Whether I make money or not on the photos shouldn't have any bearing on the validity of the project or these workshops. And yes I do make money by selling the photos I take, but like most wildlife photography, it's petty cash compared to any other work I'm hired for. The cash is certainly in no way an incentive to go. It can't even begin to cover my plane ticket!

This project is also independent of the everglades hype. We would be doing the exact same work regardless of the predicament in Florida. Obviously though the Burmese Pythons render our work relatable to the work in the Everglades, but I wouldn’t really consider that “cashing in” on it to any great extent. We study the pythons in Bangladesh to help the pythons of Bangladesh and throughout the rest of their range. Plain and simple. Oh, and the “Bangladesh Python Project” name has stuck because we began with pythons, but have expanded to several other genera and didn’t care to change our name and risk losing public recognition.

I think that should clarify everything. Ernie, if you want to discuss anything further, feel free in a civil manner. Also, there’s always a spot open for you in the workshop. If you want to see what we do first hand and learn how the research is helping the pythons, I’d love to show you! I guarantee I could change your mind :beer:

Also, there are still a couple spots open for June due to some health-related drop-outs. As always, email me to sign up and get more information.

Cheers everyone!

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