hybrid speck×red !?

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kingsnakeadam
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hybrid speck×red !?

Post by kingsnakeadam » September 2nd, 2014, 7:13 pm

OK hear are the pics back up. Found in Borrego.


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monklet
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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by monklet » September 2nd, 2014, 8:07 pm

Doesn't need to be 50/50 ...could be 75/25 speck/red??? Certainly would seem to favor speck. Great find :beer:

RobertH
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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by RobertH » September 2nd, 2014, 9:06 pm

Interesting find. Here's a little better and edited picture of the snake:

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by hellihooks » September 3rd, 2014, 9:49 am

Just looks like a speck, to me. They have a HUGE range of colors
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Owen
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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by Owen » September 3rd, 2014, 10:38 am

Jim, I was thinking the same thing, Maybe the tail is a little more bandy than normal, but it's a juvie. Another speck vote here.

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by Fieldnotes » September 3rd, 2014, 1:08 pm

100% speckled is my vote :beer:

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by monklet » September 3rd, 2014, 1:25 pm

Four very distinct black bands on white seems unusual to me (limited experience), and that was really the only thing that indicated possible hybrid. Can't see the face well in those pics and was hoping Robert's pic would show that.

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by MarcLinsalata » September 3rd, 2014, 2:41 pm

I didn't want to be the first guy to rain on the parade last night but now I can join in and vote for a 100% speck. Jim is right when it comes to variability, which is why they are my favorite California snake 8-)

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by RobertH » September 3rd, 2014, 3:31 pm

I think it is a hybrid because you never see an eyestripe on a speck like you can see in the fifth shot. Here is another reedited shot showing the eyestripe.
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Then of course the tail says ruber. I've yet to see any pictures of specks that have that distinct pattern that you see on this snake, especially the first half. It isn't speckled, its a mix between the undefined bands of a speck and the distinct pattern of ruber. If you still disagree with me show me a speck with a coon tail like that and a distinct pattern like that then i will agree that it is a speck. But until then it is a hybrid or it is a panamint.
P.s we didn't take take the pic we posted, we just edited it.

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by hellihooks » September 4th, 2014, 8:10 am

Here's 3 specks I flipped under one rock... an Orange, a hi-white, and a heavily patterned one... demonstrating the variability that can be found under ONE ROCK... :crazyeyes:
Just a feature of randomness, that once in a while something random will look like a stripe, etc. If you want to see it bad enough... you'll see what could be considered a partial stripe in the closeups i took of these three. Naturally occurring Hybrids are super rare... and generally need absolute proof to be able to be recognized as such.
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Jeroen Speybroeck
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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck » September 4th, 2014, 10:12 am

RobertH wrote:or it is a panamint
That's in fact what it made me think of (how ever unlikely).

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by repaphin » September 4th, 2014, 11:31 am

Definitely not a panamint. Its more likely to be a speck. But who knows?

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck » September 4th, 2014, 11:39 am

repaphin wrote:Definitely not a panamint.
Would you care to educate me why (apart from the obvious range issue)?

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by RobertH » September 4th, 2014, 3:13 pm

What about this snake? Is it also not a hybrid?

ImageWhat is it? by NicholasHess, on Flickr

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by hellihooks » September 4th, 2014, 3:32 pm

A hybrid of two photos. :roll:

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by RobertH » September 4th, 2014, 4:50 pm

Wrong, Guess again :roll:

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by kingsnakeadam » September 4th, 2014, 5:45 pm

I understand that there is a great variation in the speck pattern. But with that said since finding this animal I ha e spent many hours looking at pics of specks and none even come close to the tail bands on this animal nor the eye band. I fully believe it is hybrid with red and it was not collected so I guess we will never have proof lol.

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck » September 5th, 2014, 12:58 am

Was it an adult? Juvenile patterns tend to differ quite a bit, right?

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by LouB747 » September 5th, 2014, 6:02 am

RobertH wrote:Wrong, Guess again :roll:

Nicholas
A hybrid of 3 photos.

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by Steve Bledsoe » September 5th, 2014, 9:29 am

C. cerastespyrruber or C. cerastespyrratrox :crazyeyes:

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by hellihooks » September 5th, 2014, 12:49 pm

kingsnakeadam wrote:I understand that there is a great variation in the speck pattern. But with that said since finding this animal I ha e spent many hours looking at pics of specks and none even come close to the tail bands on this animal nor the eye band. I fully believe it is hybrid with red and it was not collected so I guess we will never have proof lol.
No one believes I found a 6 ft rosy either...cause i never got a pic. But if i had a pic... even one no one could agree upon... you can bet I'd leave it up. If you really believe it's a hybrid... leave the pics up... maybe some real expert will agree with you... :roll:

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by Steve Bledsoe » September 5th, 2014, 2:07 pm

Here's a spec with a high contrast banded tail that Hellihooks found on a survey outing in Escondido. Photos by Kent VanSooy
The "ruber-like" black and white tail markings are not all that uncommon on this species.

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by hellihooks » September 5th, 2014, 2:34 pm

yeah... that was a really cool-looking speck, with it's rusty-orange markings. Here's a little 62 speck, with bands and what looks like an eye-stripe, as well. I could probably find more, in my 5000 + pics, if I had the time... but 2 bolts away from dropping a transmission... :?
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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by Fundad » September 5th, 2014, 3:49 pm

No one believes I found a 6 ft rosy either
:lol:
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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by RobertH » September 5th, 2014, 4:41 pm

Adam,

I agree with Jim, you should put the post back up.

I am also afraid that Nicholas (he's 12, you know that, right?) and I may have inadvertently contributed to your decision to remove the post. For my part, the edited version of your picture of the snake disappeared by mistake because I deleted the pic from my Flickr album after posting it here. I didn't realize (duh) that the pic would then no longer be visible in this thread. For Nicholas's part, well, he's just a goof ball and didn't realize that he was hijacking - and, in your eyes perhaps, ridiculing - your original post. When you reread his original reply, you'll see that he is actually just about the only here who strongly feels that the snake you found IS a hybrid. And he still does. The 3-way ruber-cerastes-speck photoshop snake was just sort of a fun project that popped into his head and wasn't at all meant to denigrate your post or view point. To the contrary.

For what it's worth, I also have hard time seeing just a regular speck in your pictures. Like you and Nicholas pointed out, there are no pictures anywhere on the web showing a speck with a super-defined coon tail like that, much less one with a coon tail, defined bands, and no speckles (that I can see).

So, at the very least, you seem to have found the most unusual speck ever photographed. That alone seems reason enough to resurrect your post.

Robert

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by hellihooks » September 5th, 2014, 7:03 pm

Fundad wrote:
No one believes I found a 6 ft rosy either
:lol:
Image
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by Aaron » September 5th, 2014, 9:28 pm

I'm not an expert on Specks as I've only seen a few. I did google images and the tail is certainly way more banded than any others.

Helli, did you actually measure the 6 foot boa, or were you just estimating? I caught a very large bullsnake in Texas that supposedly ended up measuring 9'3"(total length with a stub tail) when it died in my friends possession about 4 or 5 years later.

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by hellihooks » September 6th, 2014, 7:22 am

Aaron wrote:
Helli, did you actually measure the 6 foot boa, or were you just estimating? I caught a very large bullsnake in Texas that supposedly ended up measuring 9'3"(total length with a stub tail) when it died in my friends possession about 4 or 5 years later.
yes... this was back in my commercial collecting days... and the guy I worked for, Jim Stout of Fontana Reptiles paid me by the foot for snakes. no pics... so didn't happen. cept for me :|

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by Bob McKeever » September 6th, 2014, 7:57 am

A little late to the party & I must have missed something. Where was this snake found & photographed?

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by kingsnakeadam » September 6th, 2014, 11:12 am

I'm taking down the post cause I don't want to be bothered by people asking about exactly where it was caught and stuff. Feel free to pm me to whom ever wants to discuss this snake. I like talking to other herpers. But all pics of specks with banded tails look different. Not as many bands for one and also another the band's don't fully connect they are always broken.

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by hellihooks » September 6th, 2014, 4:07 pm

kingsnakeadam wrote:I'm taking down the post cause I don't want to be bothered by people asking about exactly where it was caught and stuff. Feel free to pm me to whom ever wants to discuss this snake. I like talking to other herpers. But all pics of specks with banded tails look different. Not as many bands for one and also another the band's don't fully connect they are always broken.
Locality is very important when considering the possibility of a hybrid or even intergrades. AND some places (like borego) are kinda known for 'oddball' stuff... like they occasional desert phase rubers that everyone thinks are hybrids...

I take my 'weird' stuff to Loma Linda, and lets genetics tell the story... shame you didn't collect that snake... Dr Hayes is usually agreeable to 'hybrid' testing...till then just an oddball speck.

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by rpecora » September 7th, 2014, 12:50 am

RobertH wrote:I think it is a hybrid because you never see an eyestripe on a speck like you can see in the fifth shot. Here is another reedited shot showing the eyestripe.
Two different specks with eye stripe/band whatever you want to call it. Distinct coon type banding on the tails. Ruber are not found in this range. However atrox can be found, but scarcely. I have no doubt that it's a speck.

Jim, still going with the 6' rosy boa story. I commend you for not giving in yet.

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck » September 7th, 2014, 2:36 am

RobertH wrote:defined bands, and no speckles (that I can see).
Hence my first thoughts towards panamintishness in this animal. No one up for explaining why this can not be the case (regardless of the range issue)?

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by MarcLinsalata » September 7th, 2014, 11:14 am

I don't think it's a shame at all when a snake isn't collected, regardless of scientific reason or not - just saying............ :idea:

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by hellihooks » September 7th, 2014, 2:33 pm

MarcLinsalata wrote:I don't think it's a shame at all when a snake isn't collected, regardless of scientific reason or not - just saying............ :idea:
Even those who don't collect... should when there's a chance of science being advanced. I'm going to start carrying alcohol, in case I think a genetic sample is in order.

As this post shows... sometimes pics just don't get it done... :roll:

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by Kent VanSooy » September 8th, 2014, 9:05 am

To me, it's speck x ruber - I feel like I can clearly "see" both those species in the pictures that were posted.

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck » September 8th, 2014, 9:44 am

hellihooks wrote:I'm going to start carrying alcohol
Say what!? I thought you were done with all that, Jim :mrgreen: :crazyeyes:

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by hellihooks » September 8th, 2014, 4:33 pm

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:
hellihooks wrote:I'm going to start carrying alcohol
Say what!? I thought you were done with all that, Jim :mrgreen: :crazyeyes:
I'm thinking I'll go 30 years (2 more to go)... chug a fifth of Cuevro.. and start over on a second 30 years... :beer:

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by hellihooks » September 9th, 2014, 7:41 am


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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by Eimon » September 10th, 2014, 1:53 pm

I love this thread! Something to discuss from multiple experiences and perspectives. Adam, you really, really should re-post the original pics. Look, the snake is what it is, regardless of our opinions. Besides, you asked for them and you are getting them. Don’t let the “hassle” detract from the objective. Now, contrary to Kent (and I don’t go against his experience very often) I didn’t see anything that made me think ruber was involved. Mitchellii are arguably the most variable Crotes on the planet, and I have seen (and kept) a lot of them. Agreed, the tail banding is very different, but the rest of the morphology and patterning seemed spot on speckled to me. A few have a discernable “eye stripe” but most are just the mottled coloration akin to the rest of the individual snakes. Now just for reference, I dug up a few pics from 2001 or so of a supposed ruber/helleri. One could say it has obvious influences from both subs, or is it a dark aberrant ruber. So let’s keep talking about it. Plus a few bonus pics from AZ. It’s been a crap herp year in So Cal, so this is cool. Put your pics back up brother!
It’s OK! :thumb: :beer:

ruber X helleri
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AZ Crotes

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by hellihooks » September 10th, 2014, 4:31 pm

Not sure if anyone remembers when I got this 'Barstow Helleri' that many (myself included) thought was a helli/scute X... almost pure green body (nearly 'green-walled') with a brn/peach row of helleri markings down it's back.
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Through venom and genetic testing at LLU, it was shown to be just a 'desert phase' helleri, like from JT. Having seen several since (including pairing mine up)... turns out that's what most of them look like.... green with brn/peach markings... :shock:
So... no offense to anyone... but I'll believe it when the tests come back... for ANY possible Hybrid. ;)

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by jared68nova » September 10th, 2014, 10:05 pm

Almost looks like some of the pics I have seen of young atrox... a bit reduced in pattern and faded maybe.. weird one.

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by kingsnakeadam » September 11th, 2014, 2:12 am

OK ok. The pics will come back up .......... In the meantime I have found a couple of these rare hybrids. ..

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by hellihooks » September 11th, 2014, 10:33 am

Here's a few better pics of the Rodman mts Helli's that look like helli/scute X's...
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The female, collected within 50 yrs of the male, 4 years later...
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Take a look at the crote Kent has posted in his post...
http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq21 ... oruber.jpg
looks (as Monklet pointed out) a LOT like yours... :thumb:

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by Eimon » September 12th, 2014, 12:04 pm

Thanks Adam! In all fairness, I want to look at that snake again. I could be missing something. Just so you know, I used to have a monster speck that I always wondered if it had some ruber in it. It was twice a big as any other adult ever seen, and a trippy almost patternless pumpkin orange beast. Guess what, it too was from the general Borrego area. Hey Jim, maybe this is a southern "desert phase" helleri? :) It seemed to look different than the few others seen in that particular area, which is also a transition zone. Still makes me wonder about it. I used to think possible atrox influence, which of course would be significant for that area. Get out enough over the years and we are all bound to find some unusual examples of herps.
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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by hellihooks » September 12th, 2014, 4:11 pm

Now THAT'S a crote I would take directly to Dr Hayes for genetic testing... i wouldn't/couldn't start to take a guess at it... :shock: kinda has the desert phase helli coloration, but not the well-defined squarish stripe of markings (a well-defined lateral split, if you will)
No one remembers the several posts of weird crotes from borrego that some argued Ruber/Atrox, Atrox/speck, speck/ruber X???... I think everyone settled on desert-phase Ruber... :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by Eimon » September 12th, 2014, 5:18 pm

Yeah, great :D That was from like 6 or 8 years ago. I got a lot of pics I'll dig through that show a huge variety of hellis and some ruber from the same general area. A few are really unexpected types. BTW- all 3 of those AZ crotes were designated as crosses/hybrids. Anyone care to guess :?:

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by AndyO'Connor » September 12th, 2014, 5:44 pm

Eimon wrote:
AZ Crotes

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Molosus x scutulatus (or atrox?)

klauberi x pricei ?? Looks like some southern lepidus like C. l. morulus or maculosus

willardi x klauberi?

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by hellihooks » September 26th, 2014, 7:52 am

Dr Hayes is going to send me pics of 2 verified hybrids from LLU's collection... a helli/ruber X and a helli/scute X. post them when I get um... :beer:

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Re: hybrid speck×red !?

Post by Eimon » September 26th, 2014, 12:43 pm

Hey Andy, sorry for being such a dolt in not answering for so long. Yeah, you are spot on. First is molossus/atrox. At least that's what they are listed as. Then again, I did leave the "hints" in the file names :lol:

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