Grace Olive Wiley
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Grace Olive Wiley
One of the more interesting herp people I've read about is Grace Olive Wiley. I'd be interested in hearing FHFers' thoughts about her. Preternaturally gifted snake whisperer, or kook?
Re: Grace Olive Wiley
I vote for both.
She had skills, that's clear. But she applied them recklessly, to the endangerment of others as well as (and especially) herself. She was popular with the media and unpopular among colleagues because of her recklessness with venomous snakes, and it ultimately cost her her life. Not a good role model for any herper, in my opinion.
Gerry
She had skills, that's clear. But she applied them recklessly, to the endangerment of others as well as (and especially) herself. She was popular with the media and unpopular among colleagues because of her recklessness with venomous snakes, and it ultimately cost her her life. Not a good role model for any herper, in my opinion.
Gerry
Re: Grace Olive Wiley
She was a kook! A very interesting kook, but a wackadoodle all the way!
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Re: Grace Olive Wiley
Yeah, I'll go along with that. She sure is a fascinating person, though. It amazes me that she went so long before she caught a hot bite.Not a good role model for any herper, in my opinion.
Re: Grace Olive Wiley
The most interesting photo I have seen was one where a crote was coiled in her hands in complete repose.
There are the obvious reasons to lable someone who did what she did a kook, its easy to say. But what was more intriguing is not why she did it, but how.
Relaxation is contagious, and the level of relaxation it would take to do what she did was profound.
There are the obvious reasons to lable someone who did what she did a kook, its easy to say. But what was more intriguing is not why she did it, but how.
Relaxation is contagious, and the level of relaxation it would take to do what she did was profound.
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Re: Grace Olive Wiley
This is what I wonder about the most.But what was more intriguing is not why she did it, but how.
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Re: Grace Olive Wiley
Then there's this...
To me, she sounded like some of the folks who've been portrayed on "fatal attractions", and thought the animals could sense they meant them no harm, and thus would stay safe. And perhaps she was right, just not quite 100% of the time.
Tamara, I sent you the full article once, right?
To me, she sounded like some of the folks who've been portrayed on "fatal attractions", and thought the animals could sense they meant them no harm, and thus would stay safe. And perhaps she was right, just not quite 100% of the time.
Tamara, I sent you the full article once, right?
Re: Grace Olive Wiley
During the era in which she lived, and during the period of her performing activity, she could have been termed "innovative" and "ahead of her time" -- someone who researched the innate behavior of snakes that were armed and dangerous. Her observations could have been parallel to those of primatologists who took the time to discover that Gorillas don't band together and eat people. If the primatologists were beaten to death and consumed, they would have been labeled as kooks. What happened to Miss Wiley was no different than that overstuffed sausage of a corn snake at the nature center that finally bites some kid.
Jeff
Jeff
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Re: Grace Olive Wiley
I think so. Omg, have we had this conversation before? I just turned 50, so it's quite possible I'm losing what little mental acuity I ever had.Tamara, I sent you the full article once, right?
Re: Grace Olive Wiley
This is not how scientists of Wiley's time viewed her behavior, and for good reason.Jeff wrote:During the era in which she lived, and during the period of her performing activity, she could have been termed "innovative" and "ahead of her time" -- someone who researched the innate behavior of snakes that were armed and dangerous. Her observations could have been parallel to those of primatologists who took the time to discover that Gorillas don't band together and eat people. If the primatologists were beaten to death and consumed, they would have been labeled as kooks...
About the only way in which she was similar to the aforementioned primatologists was that they all came to care deeply for, and perhaps even to feel some kind of personal connection to, the animals with which they were involved. To take the comparison any further than that is to do the primatologists a real disservice.
The primatologists habituated free-ranging animals in order to conduct close observations of them in as natural and undisturbed a setting as possible, as part of formal long-term studies of them. Far from taking the animals in hand, kissing them, etc., these scientists generally attempted to minimize their direct interactions with the animals they were watching.
Wiley did a little bit of scientific work at the very beginning of her career with reptiles, but acquired the bulk of her knowledge and skills simply by keeping them, not in any formal study of them in captivity or in the wild. Her entirely needless and dangerously reckless handling of captive venomous snakes apparently stemmed from her belief that she had a special rapport with them and from her desire to show that off to other people, especially people in the media.
I'd say the person to compare her to is Timothy Treadwell, another kook who was killed (in his case by a brown bear) as a result of forcing outrageous familiarity on dangerous animals for no good reason whatsoever.
Gerry
Re: Grace Olive Wiley
Or possibly Steve Irwin, although you could argue he did some good along with the bad.gbin wrote:I'd say the person to compare her to is Timothy Treadwell, another kook who was killed (in his case by a brown bear) as a result of forcing outrageous familiarity on dangerous animals for no good reason whatsoever.
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Re: Grace Olive Wiley
I did not know Irwin did bad. I'm not arguing, just saying that I really did not know. My knowledge of him and his work is limited to thinking that he was a pretty good PR guy for snakes...but I am sure my view is overly narrow. Could you enlighten me?Or possibly Steve Irwin, although you could argue he did some good along with the bad
Re: Grace Olive Wiley
Tamara, lots of people (myself included) thought Irwin was recklessly dangerous in his interactions with wildlife because it made for sensational television. And it certainly could be argued that one such interaction ended his life. That's not to say he did no good, but just to say that he did a fair amount of bad as well as good.
Gerry
Gerry
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Re: Grace Olive Wiley
Ok, got it. Thanks, Gerry.
Re: Grace Olive Wiley
Oh, wow, Treadwell is an interesting comparison.
There was a poster on these boards who felt the same way about being able to tell which snakes were relaxed and "non-biters" and which ones were not. Until he got bit by a "calm" little pit viper again...and again...and again. He's lucky he learned his lesson with a relatively less deadly snake.
There was a poster on these boards who felt the same way about being able to tell which snakes were relaxed and "non-biters" and which ones were not. Until he got bit by a "calm" little pit viper again...and again...and again. He's lucky he learned his lesson with a relatively less deadly snake.
Re: Grace Olive Wiley
Yeah those were some weird presentations here with that person.
As for Treadwell, its been a long time since I saw that film. It was clear Treadwell had emotional problems. And I remember a lot of gratuitous contact, which were rebuffed adversely by bears again and again, that he didn't seem to be read, or were just willfully ignored by Treadwell.
The historical context of Wiley is one of close proximity to the Circus Snake Handlers of big top entertainment and sideshows which I think were still going on to an extent.
Im not big on enforcing ones own human will on animals, Im more interested in finding out what they do with our presence out of the equation. But it is interesting more from a neurobehavioral standpoint of snakes themselves, be they harmless or venomous, how they perceive contact with a larger organism (ie a person) as benign, since I can think of no other obligate carnivore that is more intrinsically invested in its own safety than snakes.
We forget that especially with dangerous taxa, in a trick of human perception, how limited snakes are combatively, perhaps because of a psychological residue of the inexplicable mobility of an animal albeit its limblessness.
Until the end, Wiley was able to apply a benign-ness in her approach that circumvented a defense trigger, and had become a habituated state. It wasn't wise, especially when others were involved.
Today there are grosser shows, manipulating and pandering on Youtube that have become celebrated fixtures, so its always somethin.
As for Treadwell, its been a long time since I saw that film. It was clear Treadwell had emotional problems. And I remember a lot of gratuitous contact, which were rebuffed adversely by bears again and again, that he didn't seem to be read, or were just willfully ignored by Treadwell.
The historical context of Wiley is one of close proximity to the Circus Snake Handlers of big top entertainment and sideshows which I think were still going on to an extent.
Im not big on enforcing ones own human will on animals, Im more interested in finding out what they do with our presence out of the equation. But it is interesting more from a neurobehavioral standpoint of snakes themselves, be they harmless or venomous, how they perceive contact with a larger organism (ie a person) as benign, since I can think of no other obligate carnivore that is more intrinsically invested in its own safety than snakes.
We forget that especially with dangerous taxa, in a trick of human perception, how limited snakes are combatively, perhaps because of a psychological residue of the inexplicable mobility of an animal albeit its limblessness.
Until the end, Wiley was able to apply a benign-ness in her approach that circumvented a defense trigger, and had become a habituated state. It wasn't wise, especially when others were involved.
Today there are grosser shows, manipulating and pandering on Youtube that have become celebrated fixtures, so its always somethin.
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Re: Grace Olive Wiley
Yes, I thought so too.Oh, wow, Treadwell is an interesting comparison.
Kelly, thank you for your assessment. I like how you think, and your posts almost always end up expanding my vocabulary.
Re: Grace Olive Wiley
I don't know, perhaps it's not fair to any of the other folks we've mentioned to group them with Treadwell. At the very least he was on the far end of whatever continuum they all might have been on, a real extremist when it came to the emotional part of this disorder. (I don't know whether "disorder" is really the right word to use, either, but it feels right to me.)
It's interesting and I suspect not coincidental that exhibitionism was an integral part of all these folks' behavior, as you touched upon, Kelly. They certainly seemed to want, maybe even to need, an audience. Irwin was a showman from start to finish, of course. From what I've read, Wiley also sought audiences, especially encouraging press coverage, and stepped up her recklessness considerably whenever she had such. And although Treadwell's was a mostly solitary pursuit, he satisfied his need for an audience by having a constantly running camera "documenting" his "work"; too bad he actually had another human being with him when his (and her) luck finally ran out.
Gerry
It's interesting and I suspect not coincidental that exhibitionism was an integral part of all these folks' behavior, as you touched upon, Kelly. They certainly seemed to want, maybe even to need, an audience. Irwin was a showman from start to finish, of course. From what I've read, Wiley also sought audiences, especially encouraging press coverage, and stepped up her recklessness considerably whenever she had such. And although Treadwell's was a mostly solitary pursuit, he satisfied his need for an audience by having a constantly running camera "documenting" his "work"; too bad he actually had another human being with him when his (and her) luck finally ran out.
Gerry